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#PIP5007: Exhaust Fluid Quality Poor Message Difficult To Clear

246K views 142 replies 46 participants last post by  Chevysharkin1  
#1 ·
The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.

Condition/Concern:

A dealer may encounter a customer concern of an Exhaust Fluid Quality Poor message displayed on the DIC. The dealer may or may not find DTCs stored. An Exhaust Fluid Quality Poor message can be displayed with no DTCs.
The Exhaust Fluid Quality Poor DIC message notifies the customer that the ECM has detected a drop in the SCR NOx reduction efficiency.
This PI is to assist with vehicles that have difficulty completing the DEF (diesel exhaust fluid) quality test and/or clearing the Exhaust Fluid Quality Poor Message.

Recommendations/Instructions:

Complete the current SI diagnostic for any trouble codes or symptoms found. If an Exhaust Fluid Quality Poor message is displayed with a specific DTC, use that specific SI diagnostic, and repair the vehicle as necessary.

Note:
An Exhaust Fluid Quality Poor message does not always mean the fluid is contaminated or needs to be changed. Use the J26568 - Coolant and Battery Fluid Tester to test the fluid before deciding to discard it.

If the dealer has found an Exhaust Fluid Quality Poor message with no DTCs, diagnose the condition using the current SI diagnosis for DTC P20EE. After making repairs use the SI Document titled "Reductant Fluid Quality Test (With or without DTCs)" to evaluate and clear the Exhaust Fluid Quality Poor DIC message.
If the Reductant Fluid Quality Test does not complete, or the Exhaust Fluid Quality Poor DIC message is difficult to clear, please follow the description and suggestions below.
General Information/Helpful Guidelines:

If the vehicle has been in a cold climate condition, defined as -7C/20F or less over the last few days, it may be in “frozen tank status” which prevents the Reductant Fluid Quality Test (RFQT) from evaluating a result when triggered. Frozen tank status is entered when the vehicle key on event reads a DEF tank temperature below -7C/20F. The DEF tank temperature may be warmer after extended idles but only the conditions at key on are considered. To exit “frozen tank status”, the vehicle needs to be soaked in a warm garage for greater than 6 hours with the key off continuously. After this 6 hour key off event, make sure the DEF tank temperature is above -7C/20F immediately after key on. If not, it is necessary to repeat the soak procedure allowing the DEF tank to warm up above the -7C/20F threshold.

Note:
Many dealers are parking the vehicle outside when starting the Reductant Fluid Quality Test. When parking the vehicle outside to complete the RFQT it is important to monitor the ambient temperature. If the MAF senses intake ambient temperature below -7C/20F the test many not run correctly or timeout.

Prior to starting a RFQT, the vehicle needs to be driven for 25 minutes to purge residual Reductant Fluid out of the SCR brick. After driving, command the Reductant Fluid Quality Test without shutting down the engine. An ECM power down is required between repeated RFQT tests (Key off the vehicle, remove the ignition key, and unplug the Tech 2 for two minutes between tests).
The Reductant Fluid Quality Test (RFQT) may not pass the first test or it may time out (45 minutes for LGH, 70 minutes LML). If the vehicle continues to fail the Reductant Fluid Quality Test, run a DPF service regen followed by another ECM powerdown, a 25 minute drive, and a Reductant Fluid Quality Test. If after 3 attempts of this total procedure, the Reductant Fluid Quality Test does not pass, it is probable a faulted condition still exists with the vehicle.
It is important to note whether an RFQT passes/fails versus a timeout event. Each of these could have a different root cause. For the case in which the test times out, one or more of the Conditions for running the DTC (as stated in the P20EE) were not true. There will not be any indication on the Tech 2 for which condition is not true other than the RFQT timing out. For the case in which the test continues to fail, it is necessary to inspect the DEF system/components for symptoms of failure. The following guides can be used to help pinpoint the failing component.
1. During a RFQT, the downstream NOx ppm should read roughly 70% less than the upstream NOx ppm on a healthy system. (As an example the upstream NOx ppm should be near 100ppm when the downstream NOx sensor 2 is around 30ppm).
2. During a DPF service regen, the SCR is too hot to reduce NOx effectively. The upstream and downstream NOx ppm values should be relatively similar.
3. During a DPF service regen, EGT1 should be between 250C/482F and 400C/752F, EGT2 should be the hottest of all the EGT’s in the range of 550C/1022F to 700C/1292F, EGT3 and EGT4 should be slightly cooler than the previous sensor on a healthy system. If EGT3 and EGT4 temperatures are 100 C/212F higher than EGT2, an intake/exhaust leak, fuel quality (Sulfur above 15% ppm) may exist. Completing a service regen will purge Sulfur from the exhaust system. In rare cases, a degraded DOC can be suspected.
4. During a road test at highway speeds (with system at operating temperature), the downstream NOx sensor should be 70% less than the upstream sensor and transition in the same direction as the upstream sensor, but at a much lower magnitude.
5. If the above NOx sensor comparisons aren’t true, there are several possible causes. The NOx sensor cannot distinguish between NOx and liquid NH3 (DEF). High NOx sensor 2 readings can be caused by DEF getting past the SCR catalyst. This can be the result of a degraded catalyst or a condition that causes excessive DEF on the SCR. After a DPF service regen, the SCR system is purged of excessive DEF. It is easier to evaluate if an SCR brick is compromised right after a service regen because it eliminates the extra DEF that the system was exposed to.
6. The SCR system can also store NOx in cold temperatures (extended idle). When the system warms up, this NOx can be released and results in a brief NOx2 increase above NOx1.
7. If NOx2 is malfunctioning or poisoned, NOx values will be influenced and may be stuck higher than NOx1.
8. This document assumes that the DEF injector volume has been verified and passes with 3 distinct spray plumes from the injector.
9. This document also assumes the intake and exhaust system are leak free. Intake and exhaust leaks can cause changes to the dosing system performance due to varied NOx output from the engine.
10. Aftermarket components including, but not limited to, air induction parts, performance modifiers, grill covers, and exhaust modifications may negatively influence the EF system performance.
If all conditions above appear to be functioning normally, SCR replacement may be required but is a very rare occurrence. If the SCR is replaced, the new component will require a DPF service regen followed by the RFQT procedure prior to releasing the vehicle. Also, refer to the SI for appropriate resets to be performed by the Tech2.
Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.
 
#2 ·
Higher sulfur fuel, such as that found in Mexico, can cause the engine light, the emissions light, and the Bad DEF warning to come on. The problem generally clears itself after the next regeneration, because any sulfur compounds in the SCR get burned off. The NOX sensor then measures normal operation of the SCR.

HOWEVER, as long as the engine continues to use higher sulfur fuel, the Bad DEF warning will keep coming on from time to time.

Owners with 2011 and later LMLs, who have taken them into Mexico for the winter, are experiencing these symptoms.
 
#3 · (Edited)
I'm in Florida. I've had this light (low quality def) come on atleast 8 times and its followed by the engine light everytime. Ive had it to the dealer everytime, they've replaced the tank, flushed it out, changed the sensor in the tank, reset the computer and nothing has worked. It at the dealer as we speak for the same problem I'm becoming very frustrated with this truck.
 
#5 · (Edited)
I dont think so I use sunoco diesel mostly. The truck never had a problem up until about 19k miles. For the last 5k miles in been in for this problem 7-8 times. The first few times the dealer said they could find anything and just cleared the codes (which didnt fix anything) I think I have a worthless dealer.
 
#7 ·
Yeah they replaced a nox sensor and the service adviser just called and said the pressure was too high in the secondary sensor so they are replacing that now too. It seems to me they have no idea how to fix it.
 
#11 ·
When you follow a recommended diagnostic/repair procedure, it's ALWAYS the last thing you try.... (of course)....and sometimes you replace a lot of the 'most likely' items before you get to the real culprit.

Is the the device being monitored by the sensor, or is it the sensor??

Sounds like you and your dealer are having a string of bad luck.
 
#9 ·
Oh does that sound all to familiar. Have a 2011 bought in April 2011. Went into the shop in August 2011 for that same problem. Good until 24443 miles on May 30, 2012. then in the shop all for the same def problem lights etc, six times until June 20, 2012. Heard so many bs stories from the dealer. Decided to go through the buy back program. I get my new 2013 2500 Duramax Sept 4, 2012. Hope all the problems are solved and GM quits lying to me.
 
#13 ·
Hello Everyone. I have a 2011 and up until today I have never received the "Exhaust Fluid Poor Quality, see instruction manual". I don't know what to do- just add more and see what happens? Does anyone know if I am "Driving it wrong?" I am not using it for the purpose I bought it for. In the beginning it was for work and on the road all the time. I recently purchased another truck of older value and dually bc work beats the **** out of vehicles and loved the 2011 and decided to keep it as my nice truck. Now the 2011 sits in the garage or drives a few miles a day. Could that possibly have caused this? Any advice?

Thanks
 
#14 ·
dirtymax754, is your truck still under warranty? If so, you need to take it to a dealership.

If it is out of warranty, and you are unsure whether the emissions warranty will cover your problem, send me a PM and I'll send you instructions how to force a regeneration, which will clean out the SCR. The procedure I'll give you does not cause any permanent codes to be registered, and does not harm your vehicle.
 
#15 ·
What I can tell you about these DEF problems is, DEF has a shelf life. MAX life is 2 years @50F, MIN 6 months @ 90F, temp is what kills it. GM has the date on the bottle, blue def does not. If the truck sits the def will go stale. The rate of def usage is 1% def/gallon of fuel, so the harder worked the more def is used. Tank designed to last one oil change interval. My suggestion is if the truck sits a lot DO NOT keep the def tank full, that way if it goes stale you can usually add new def and pass the tests.
If the poor quality def comes on I have had great luck with this procedure, you will need Tech 2
1. Drain the tank if full, if low fill tank with new def that is less than 2 months old.
2. Clear all codes
3. Perform a Regen on the exhaust particulate filter
4. Use Tech 2 and go into the Glow Plug Control Module and command each of the reductant heaters on-this is the key because it will not complete the test until the heaters have been commanded on and pass and they are only commanded on at temps less than 32F so even if you drain and it runs the def quality tests the light will not clear until the heaters cycle.
5. Command a reductant quality test.
I have done this on several and I have not had any problems since then. If you buy def and want to store it, put it in the fridge next to your beer (after all it is just purified used beer). The lower temp will increase the shelf life.
 
#43 ·
My $55,000 mistake!



How can you say that! I figure with the owners on these forums having problems are only a small percentage of the actual number. Most owners do not even belong to these types of groups. I use my 2012 3500HD for work as diesels were designed for and find the problems I have had as unacceptable and would not recommend the 2011 on Duramax to anyone!

At 80,000 miles on Feb 2014 my poor quality DEF DIC message came on. Dealer had it for a week needed help from GM engineers replaced two NOX sensors finally got it to do a regen and gave it back to me. I drove 1200 miles DIC message Poor quality DEF again only two days this time changed SCR injector. Repaired under warranty but i lost a lot of income!

June 27th service exhaust system DIC message, took it directly to a dealer near me they were great as soon as they opened they put me ahead of their appointments. Could not get regen to stick. Since it was going to be more of a fix than they had hoped for they gave it back said I would be fine driving it home. I went two miles change fuel filter DIC message seconds later engine died in traffic. Towed to dealer that had worked on it in February. Three pm the 27th arrived at dealer they still have it.

They found that the injector pump had grenaded sending metal through the fuel system. $10,000 repair at 140,000 miles replacing the entire fuel system. I purchased a GMC truck for quality and dependability,paid more than I would of paid for a Ford or a Dodge. I told owners of those trucks you get what you pay for. They have not had the problems I have had.

The dealer called July 11th at closing time to tell me my truck is now running but they think the reductant pump is not working. They will be certain monday morning when they get back to it. $$$$

FANTASTIC!
 
#19 ·
I hate DEF !!!!! Mine sits sometimes for a month with no problems and I never fill it up full.As we speak, I have it at the dealer for DEF Quality Poor light and Check engine light for the second time this year. Truck sat for a few weeks and got the codes a few days after I got home. Added DEF to it and drove it a few days and it didn't clear. Last time it happened, I was 1200 miles from home. I had to find a dealer and spend the night in a hotel so they could flush the tank. $400 and cost of hotel room, I was on my way home. And to add insult to injury, last year it needed a new tank/pump assembly. Thank got that was under warranty
 
#23 ·
I have been having this issue on my 2012 2500 with 40k miles. Been to the dealer Chuck Olsen 5 times now and they do not know how to fix it. They have had truck 28 days of the last month and a half. The truck is dead in my driveway now as it only has 28 miles until it goes into 4mph shutdown. GM has promised to reimburse me for a rental truck I got the last couple times I took it in but will not return my calls or send me paperwork to get the process started. The last call took me two hours of waiting on hold then to be connected to a new district rep who did not know my case because the last person was transferred and no one was assigned it. She expected me to wait on hold while she read my file. I am running a business here and do not have time to put everyone on hold while they read and then ask me to tell the whole story over again. I told her to call me back once she was up to speed. No call back was done.

So far they have had a regional tech work on it and upload some new software. That only made it work for 170 miles then back into DEF shutdown mode.

It is my only business work truck and it is killing my remodeling company. I cannot move material or tow my trailers to my jobs. I have a $30,000 dead weight.
 
#26 ·
Hey! My parents are in mexico and they have the same problem... The engine light will come on as well as the exhaust poor quality poor, as soon the truck generates the exaust poor quality will go away but the check engine will stayed on... it's a 2011 chevy Silverado, what would suggest to do in this case? How can we perform a manual regen?
 
#28 ·
Hi greende, I've already been in contact with alan4984, and just waiting for his father to contact me directly so that I can deal with his issue. Not a big problem for the 2011 model year in Mexico. A simple fix is usually all that is required.
 
#29 ·
Fellas, I have a 2013 lml with 42k miles. While driving home lastnight from work in Louisiana I got the DEF QUALITY POOR 99 miles to 65 mph limit. It happened right when I hit 75mph to pass a guy. I never got the 1000 mile warning for the def being poor. So I stopped and added fresh def with no change. Then 30 miles later the check eng light came on. Made it home with 62 miles to go until it limits to 4mph. I also kept the speed above 70 for almost 60 miles after I added the fresh def. Is there any way to reset this? I really hope this can be fixed without going to the dealer. It's 400 miles one way for me to go to work, so I can't be going through this every 14 days while going to and from work. Ted can you pm some advice on this?