[RayMich]

All the new emission regulations that are being imposed on diesels are definitely going to have a big impact on diesel sales.

When I bought my '06 LBZ back in 2005, the price of diesel fuel was around 10 to 13 cents per gallon more than gasoline. Even with that fuel cost premium, plus the additional cost for the diesel package and maintenance, I figured that with the improved fuel economy my break-even point was going to be around 60,000 miles compared to the 8.1 Liter gasser. But now when you consider that diesel fuel is selling around here for 62 to 65 cents per gallon MORE than gasoline, plus the increased cost for the diesel package on the GMT900 and more complex and expensive diesel oil & emission system maintenance, my calculations come out to around 460,000+ mile to break even, when compared to the 8.1 liter gasser. -- If I compare the total cost of owning a new 2007+ diesels to that of the 6.0 liter gasser, the break even point comes out to around 2.8 million miles.

The way I figure it, if this price disparity continues to rise and the cost of diesel fuel gets to be greater than 69 cent per gallon more than gasoline, the total cost of ownership for the diesel truck will be greater than for the 6.0 L gas engine on these trucks and one will NEVER break even.

I sure am glad that I bought my new truck when I did, 'cause I could NEVER cost justify a new GMT900 diesel with all the higher costs and complexity associated with it.

The EPA along with the oil companies' higher diesel fuel prices are doing a great job at killing highway diesel engines for anything other than OTR trucking.

It's getting to the point where only diehard diesel enthusiasts will be the only ones buying them in the future.

 

[nextlevel38]

your info is pretty decent however dont think for a minute that the OTR portion of diesel is any better by all means i would rather deal with the extra price of a damax instead of the OTR TRUCK COST. do a little research you will see in the near future how prices for goods go up do the the huge increase in cost for trucks to get it there... you can only idle for 5 min so the puts you in the hole 3-5 grand to buy the alternet power / heat source as well. .. the new cost for OTR engine has gone up from 4-8 thousand as well then watch the inusrance rates go up when they find out the DPF cost 4000.00 to replace if it was ever damaged versus an 80.00 muffler sooo every one related to a diesel is getting in the shorts

 

[thejdman04]

I dont want to start an argument, however I would like to see the nubmers behind your statement. They seem a bit off. I agree its getting very expensive to run a diesel pickup up and down the road. I aggree for pepole like me who dont need a truck a lot a lot (but when I need one I need one and really use it), I may have to seriulsy look at buying a gasser and taking the hills slower Like whne I plow I like the low end torque, when I pull wagons out of the field, hay racks my gooseneck etc. But Everdya drivign to work w/the extra cost of diesel is killing me. Granted I get better milage but the durmax is 7,000 to start w/and the 68 cent per gallon premium for diesel fuel(which is what it is right now here today.) itll definitly make me think about another diesel, dont get me wrong I love it I really do but really looking at it when it comes down to it. I do agree, the price of these emmision related stuff is going through the roof and is total bs. How far are we gonna take it. Diesels are so clean right now as it is and another round in 2010 how far are we gonna take it?? The price of everything anymore is killing everyone, and now as next level said you got to run an apu another 400 lbs everyday everyload really hurts the bottom line running w/one everday. "progress?"

I do think for guys running all highway miles needing the power day in day out theres no doubt for the diesel but itll be harder and herder to bite that bullet. Also guys putting on high miles can benefit from the diesel but around here esp w/magnesium chloride they put on the roads, the bodies are doomed well before the mtoorr in low mile applications. Diesel will always have its place, Irght now I COULD go to a gasser but the power performance is nice iut its at a high er price but pretty soon can I justify it??????

 

[rock_shoes]

Call me a fanatic, but I will NEVER own a full-size truck with a gas engine. It just wouldn't feel right. Don't fret for too long guys this disparity won't last forever. Hang on to your pre DPF trucks for another year or two and everything will be allright.

 

[LBZFAN]

I think reducing the number of everyday diesel trucks on the road (was and is) the very point of all this emissions stuff. Alot of Politics involved here wether you believe it or not. There are alot of people elected to public office with their own agendas. They have succeeded with this one, a very extremist enviro agenda that is scary because they dont give a sh$t about the economics of it. I agree with all the above posts, the future of diesels is very much in jeopardy, but things change also. Should be interesting in a couple of years down the line. Glad I have my 06.

 

[Jaybeecon]

A lot of the number crunching depends on where you live and how you use your truck. I plan on changing from gas to the GMT900 diesel because it will cost me less money, not more. In my situation:

1. Currently, diesel fuel is selling for 19 cents a gallon more than regular gas. While that does fluctuate somewhat it seems like it's been staying within a few cents of that figure.

2. In my usage, I know that I will be trading any truck that I get after five or six years, once I write it off. While I will feel the initial hit on price on my next purchase, the resale value of the diesel stays much higher than the gas - high enough to recoup most of the extra price of the diesel option.

3. In reading many reports on this forum, it seems like a reasonable milage comparison between the 8.1 and the Dmax is to assume that the diesel will get about 1-1/2 times the milage of the gasser under the same conditions - either towing or not towing. I've been using a MPG figure of 10 for the 8.1 and 15 for the Dmax to run milage numbers.

4. While the Dmax always cost significantly more than the 6.0 HD truck, the extra cost is much less when you factor in the 8.1 combination with the Allison. I know when I purchased my '02, it would have cost an extra $3,800 to make it a Dmax.

5. This is all pretty much a moot point now that the 8.1 has been discontinued. Even though the HP and torque numbers are up on the 6.0, it does not even come clost to the output of the Dmax. If you use your truck for local miles without hauling a large load, then the 6.0 gas will be adequate but if you are frequently hauling lots of weight or a large trailer, or if you do lots of highway miles, the diesel is a far better choice.

 

[emerson]

:exactly:

A lot of the number crunching depends on where you live and how you use your truck. I plan on changing from gas to the GMT900 diesel because it will cost me less money, not more. In my situation:

1. Currently, diesel fuel is selling for 19 cents a gallon more than regular gas. While that does fluctuate somewhat it seems like it's been staying within a few cents of that figure.

2. In my usage, I know that I will be trading any truck that I get after five or six years, once I write it off. While I will feel the initial hit on price on my next purchase, the resale value of the diesel stays much higher than the gas - high enough to recoup most of the extra price of the diesel option.

3. In reading many reports on this forum, it seems like a reasonable milage comparison between the 8.1 and the Dmax is to assume that the diesel will get about 1-1/2 times the milage of the gasser under the same conditions - either towing or not towing. I've been using a MPG figure of 10 for the 8.1 and 15 for the Dmax to run milage numbers.

4. While the Dmax always cost significantly more than the 6.0 HD truck, the extra cost is much less when you factor in the 8.1 combination with the Allison. I know when I purchased my '02, it would have cost an extra $3,800 to make it a Dmax.

5. This is all pretty much a moot point now that the 8.1 has been discontinued. Even though the HP and torque numbers are up on the 6.0, it does not even come clost to the output of the Dmax. If you use your truck for local miles without hauling a large load, then the 6.0 gas will be adequate but if you are frequently hauling lots of weight or a large trailer, or if you do lots of highway miles, the diesel is a far better choice.

 

[Sierra DMAX]

I've wanted a diesel since I could drive and the one I've got now is the first one and I love it. I'll never go back. The initial cost was alot to swallow, but I justified it (to myself) because there was no way I was going to buy another gasser, which would have gotten about 9 miles a gallon. What I don't understand about the diesel fuel prices is that before all the fuel prices started going crazy a year or so ago, diesel was on average about 50 cents cheaper than gas per gallon. Gas has gone back down and leveled out somewhat, but the price of diesel has never dropped back down below gas. Does anyone really know why?

 

[RayMich]

I figure that the reason gasoline prices have dropped and diesel prices have not is that there are a lot more voters that drive gasoline fueled vehicles compared to those of us driving diesel vehicles. The general driving public driving gasoline powered vehicles has a lot more clout that we do. In this country, the majority of diesel vehicles are comercial or used for some type of business. The big trucking firms simply add the cost of fuel as a surcharge to their customers. The smaller businesses have no choice but to pass along as much as they can and absorb the rest or they switch to gasoline vehicles. Either that or they go out of business. The general public driving diesel vehicles have a very small voice here, so it is much easier for oil companies to keep the price of diesel fuel a lot higher and therefore improve their profits that way.

It costs a lot less to make a gallon of diesel fuel than it does to make a gallon of gasoline. But many states have imposed higher taxes on diesel fuel than they do on gasoline because they consider it a "business tax". Again, not as many voices b!tch!n' about higher diesel prices and the mainstream media ignores us. It all boils down to who has more clout. There are not nearly as many of us to be heard and politicians always take the easy way out so we cant' expect any help from them either.

When is the last time you heard anything in the news about the high cost of diesel fuel? I can't even remember reading about it since the truckers went on strike because of high diesel fuel prices in the late 70's. But you hear about the high price of gas every single day.

The added expense for all the emission crap is making the cost of owning these new diesels very hard to justify.

 

[copper67]

The reason for the higher price diesel is because of the higher cost for the switch and cost of refining the new ultra low diesel fuel. With the lousy mileage I get with my 6.0 I cant wait to get my new D-Max,which has been ordered, I am more than happy to pay the extra cost for the diesel power.

 

[MaxRock]

RayMich,

I agree 100% w/ your logic. There are many problems w/ the high cost of diesel;

1) it hurts every time I fill up my truck. Around here the price difference between gas and diesel is 20 - 25 cents. I'm fortunate my truck will average around 20 MPG on the highway running solo. So a gas truck would have to get 17 MPG or better to beat my $/mile cost. 17 MPG on a gasser ain't gonna happen.

2) Everything in your home, office, grocery store or any other store got there via at least one diesel powered vehicle. Whether it is by train or truck, they are all powered on diesel. The added cost of diesel is passed to you and I, which means everything we purchase is increasing in price due to the increase in diesel. This truly sucks and people need to understand this and raise holy hell about it.

I drive a ZF 6 speed, I didn't want to spend the extra $$ for the allison, so I'm really going to be hard pressed to purchase another GM diesel if the package is $6-8k above a gasser. This crap really pi$$es me off!

MaxRock

 

[RayMich]

Around here the price difference between gas and diesel is 20 - 25 cents. I'm fortunate my truck will average around 20 MPG on the highway running solo. So a gas truck would have to get 17 MPG or better to beat my $/mile cost. 17 MPG on a gasser ain't gonna happen. MaxRock

The problem with this logic is that one needs to consider more than just balancing fuel economy against the price of diesel fuel vs gasoline to determine the break-even point.

You also have to consider the initial added cost for the diesel package (which is going through the roof !!!!); the added cost for financing the more expensive truck; the lost fuel economy from the Ultra Low Sulfur diesel fuel (I am seeing around 1.5 to 2 mpg loss in fuel economy with the new ULSD); the added complexity and maintenance cost for the new emissions systems; the cost for repairing problems caused by the ULSD fuel (leaks from deteriorated gaskets, hoses & o-rings); the increased cost for the new CJ-4 low ash diesel engine oils, plus the shorter oil change intervals required by this new oil. All of these costs are adding up in a hurry. I hate to even think what a 2010 model year diesel truck will cost to purchase and operate.

The big comercial trucking companies are already getting some relief in the form of reduced fuel taxes, but the general diesel-driving public is getting the shaft big time and it's only getting worse.

This is getting very scary and will not get much better unless we can generate more clout than we currently have with the main stream media, the oil companies and the politicians who are creating these ridiculous laws.

 

[RayMich]

The reason for the higher price diesel is because of the higher cost for the switch and cost of refining the new ultra low diesel fuel. With the lousy mileage I get with my 6.0 I cant wait to get my new D-Max,which has been ordered, I am more than happy to pay the extra cost for the diesel power.

It still costs less to refine one gallong of diesel fuel than it does to get one gallon of gasoline.

When I see the price of a barrel of crude oil drop by 30% and the price of a gallon of gasoline drops from $2.35 down to $1.89 but the price of diesel fuel stays around $2.50 to $2.79 per gallon this raises a big red flag for me. In my book, there is no reason for diesel fuel to be more expensive than gasoline let alone have gasoline prices drop along with the drop in price for crude oil, but diesel fuel prices hardly drop at all.

 

[elvis_knows]

You also have to consider the initial added cost for the diesel package (which is going through the roof !!!!)

And in response to the expected reply that: ...the entire higher price of the diesel engine shouldn't be considered in its entirety because the residual value is also higher...

I would add that the difference in residual value between a gas HD & a diesel HD in absolute dollar terms is not so much if the truck is kept long enough to have any chance of getting to breakeven, unless the truck is driven a huge number of miles per year.

On the other hand, if the truck is driven an average number of miles per year and is kept for only a few years - where the difference in residual value is more substantial in absolute dollar terms- then breakeven will likely not be reached from the fuel savings. Of course, trading for a new vehicle every few years loses even more money just from always being in the highest depreciation period, too.

 

[elvis_knows]

It still costs less to refine one gallong of diesel fuel than it does to get one gallon of gasoline.

When I see the price of a barrel of crude oil drop by 30% and the price of a gallon of gasoline drops from $2.35 down to $1.89 but the price of diesel fuel stays around $2.50 to $2.79 per gallon this raises a big red flag for me. In my book, there is no reason for diesel fuel to be more expensive than gasoline let alone have gasoline prices drop along with the drop in price for crude oil, but diesel fuel prices hardly drop at all.

Potentially one saving grace to diesel fuel vs. gasoline is that you can't make your own gasoline. It is possible to make your own diesel fuel, if you have to. As peak oil (and inadequate national implementation of a replacement strategy) continues to force petroleum prices higher, the ability to make fuel from waste cooking oil could become more of a factor. Of course, by the time that happens, I'd expect demand will make waste cooking oil far more scare than it is now.

 

[RayMich]

Potentially one saving grace to diesel fuel vs. gasoline is that you can't make your own gasoline. It is possible to make your own diesel fuel, if you have to. As peak oil (and inadequate national implementation of a replacement strategy) continues to force petroleum prices higher, the ability to make fuel from waste cooking oil could become more of a factor. Of course, by the time that happens, I'd expect demand will make waste cooking oil far more scare than it is now.

Biodiesel has a huge potential for cutting into big oil profits and road tax collections. But I recently read that Texas has banned biodiesel based on some old EPA tests that determined that some engines "might" suffer from increased NOx emissions when burning biodiesel. Willie Nelson has already shut down several of his biodiesel retail outlets in Texas.

And you can bet that politicians won't stand by idle an watch all those tax dollars go unpaid by those who make their own diesel fuel. Right now if you make more than a few hundred gallons of biodiesel for personal consumption, you are required to file documents with the internal revenue service and pay road tax on all the fuel you make. And if you sell it or give it way, you have to declare every single gallon you produce and pay taxes on it. The paperwork requirements are enough to drive any small producer out of business. Of course the big agrobusinesses are making sure that there are plenty of roadblock there to prevent anyone from cutting into their comercial biodiesel production.

Additionally many communities aready specifically prohibit making biodiesel inside their city limits claiming that it is "a fire hazzard". Some are restricting large restaurants to dispose of their used cooking oil ONLY through a licensed hazzardous waste company.

 

[Dave in Maine]

Another reason that diesel prices aren't dropping like gasoline is because there is a finite refining capacity for diesel in the US while demand for #2 heating oil (diesel + dye) is up due to the cold weather in the mid-west and north east. Demand is meeting the supply.

 

[MaxRoadArmor]

I find it funny how the gov raised fuel prices so high after hurricanr katrina but nearlt 1.5 years later they are not back to where they used to be. amazing how gov and big business can exploit a natural disaster so they can make more money. Gov says they want cleaner vehicles and air but everytime we find a way to do it they put taxes, raise prices, creat road blocks...ect. In my opinion we need to obliterate the middle east, take the oil, then round up the EPA and every oil company owner and sink their greedy asses to the bottom on the ocean. I want $.85 a gallon diesel fuel back NOW! They could do it 6 years ago and make money, why do they need $2.50 a gallon today??? If every trucker/train driver went on strike i bet the gov would get off their asses and do something about it!

 

[MaxRoadArmor]

Also find it odd how the more popular diesel trucks get and the number of vehicles getting small diesel engines as an option, the more the price of diesel goes up. Man, oil companies sure are foolin us dumb ole consumers with all their "refining" costs and all their other [email protected]%^t excuses:idiot:

 

[thejdman04]

Let me tell you something about "additional refining costs etc" its all bs. I agree crude price drops gas does diesel doesnt. Around here gas is down the 1.79. Diesel is anywhere from 2.59 to 2.74. What bull. Ill tell you whats the biggest farce int hew orld and makes me think that the prices are totally screwing the public and getting the most they can out of you. ANy gas sold in cook county IL is subject to an extra 10 cent per gallon tax to pay for metra (train) cta. Gas in cook county il Is 14-17 cents per gallon cheaper in cook county then it is in boone county w/o the tax. do the math they have higher taxes and cheaper gas. Also, Ive seen where one station lowers their price station across does the same. Or price changes gas 3 times per day sometimes around ehre. NOw thats highway robbery. Total bs they paid x amount of for the gas off the tanker need x amount of profit per gallon and until they use up that gas then why shoudl thne price fluctuate unless they are ripping somone off, or have a great enough profit margin to drop the price.