[legendman]

Chevy V8 gas engines that have steel headers often have the heat problem. Cast-iron stock manifolds usually don't bother. Steel headers throw off heat like crazy and ought to be wrapped in heat-tape when near a starter. Same with a 6.2 if you have a turbo on it. The exhaust pipe needs to be wrapped.

.

Now that you mention it, the K30 did have factory headers on it, and they weren't wrapped or anything. As amatter of fact as of a couple years it had the original exhaust front to back, I thought that was pretty impressive for a truck that old and it did duty snowplowing and the frame and mason dump were rotted to nothing.

 

[Manimal70]

JD, I dont think you are getting what/why I am doing this. No dis-respect intended at all. I want as FEW wires running down the back side of the engine as possible. If/When you have to drop the starter the only wire you'd have to worry about with my method is the starter/power cable from the relay,thats it,and then all you have to do is unbolt it from the relay and drop the starter. If you are trying to diagnose a faulty ignition switch you can also test the switching wire at the relay and no more tracing wires to the starter.
As for the Gas-Diesel heat soaking starters, I am UNfamiliar with how diesels react,so I cannot comment,but on Gas I do know and this is the solution for it.

 

[jdemaris]

JD, If/When you have to drop the starter the only wire you'd have to worry about with my method is the starter/power cable from the relay,thats it

I'm not trying to give a hard time. I just don't see how that is possible. That has been my point. The Delco starter needs at least two wires. The main battery cable and the relay-engage wire that gets hooked to the "S" terminal on the Delco relay. How are you going to make the starter work with just one wire?

Ford starters (that use remote relays) only need one wire to work because they use Bendix-style self-engaging drives.

The Delco does NOT have a Bendix and the drive is supposed to be pulled into engagement by the solenoid before it starts to spin. If you tried to somehow rewire the Delco so the starter spins and pulls in simultaneously, you're going to eventually damage the drive and the flywheel.

 

[smackzed]

What? there's no switch wire?

 

[jdemaris]

What? there's no switch wire?

What's a "switch" wire?

Delco solenoid has three terminals and two are used on the diesel. One big one where the battery cable hooks. One small one marked "S" for "start" which has to be hooked to the "start" circuit from the ignition switch. On some gas engines, the other small termial marked "R" is for the ignition Resistor bypass. "R" is for "resistor", and "S" is for "start."

6.2 when wired OEM has two wires hooked to the starter that are needed for it to work. The main post - where the battery cable goes -is also uses as a high-amp connector for other main full-time power circuits.

You said you're going to make the starter work with only one wire -and I still don't understand how you plan to make that happen.

 

[Manimal70]

I will make a simple jumper from stainless steel/copper/brass plate with 1 hole to mount to the battery cable stud and the other hole to mount to the "S" terminal stud. If you hooked direct power to it,the starter would stay engaged. I will then use the wire that originally was mounted on the starter "S" terminal and mount it to the "S" terminal on the Ford relay. That,when the key is turned to the "START" position will engage the starter.
Only one wire on the starter...the Battery cable from the Ford relay.
I also plan to remove the main power wire from the starter that powers up the trucks power and do something totally different with it.

 

[smackzed]

Well I've been told the "s" is for "switch" because it comes from the ign switch and that the wire that comes from the ignition is the switch wire

Also the DD starters that I've seen have a "B" on the other terminal, not an "R" Small point.

 

[jdemaris]

I will make a simple jumper from stainless steel/copper/brass plate with 1 hole to mount to the battery cable stud and the other hole to mount to the "S" terminal stud. If you hooked direct power to it,the starter would stay engaged.

That won't work correctly. If you are connecting the main post to the S post - and then send power via your one wire - the starter drive will spin BEFORE it engages with the flywheel. It will shorten the life of the starter and also maybe the flywheel.

That starter is designed to - first pull in the non-rotating drive into the flywheel - and then once the teeth are fully engaged - the drive starts to spin. No way to make that happen with a one-wire hookup.

How are you going to make that drive engage without having it spinning?

That is the purpose of the Delco solenoid. I pulls that drive into place with that internal plunger - then that plunger hits a switch and contacts close to the starter windings and the drive starts to spin.

 

[JC1843]

This is using the Ford solenoid as a relay, and it does reduces the amp draw accreoss the ignition switch, and neutral safety switch.

Yes you do not change anything at the starter. You are just powering the GM solenoid using the ford solenoid as a relay.

 

[jdemaris]

Sorry . . brain freeze

That won't work correctly.

Sorry about that. Yes, it will work if you tie the two together. I've still got the "eliminate" solenoid thing in my mind from the original post.

 

[Gasoline Fumes]

I'm liking this idea, but will the extra set of contacts in the relay cause a voltage drop?

 

[jdemaris]

Well I've been told the "s" is for "switch" because it comes from the ign switch and that the wire that comes from the ignition is the switch wire

Also the DD starters that I've seen have a "B" on the other terminal, not an "R" Small point.

I worked in several alternator/starter shops and have probably rebuilt 1000s of Delco 27MT starters (direct drive). Never, ever saw one with a "B" instead of an ""S." Maybe you've got a chinese solenoid and they translated wrong?

 

[jdemaris]

I'm liking this idea, but will the extra set of contacts in the relay cause a voltage drop?

A voltage drop is caused by resistance. Resistance is caused by wire too small, relay contacts too small, or relay contacts that are dirty/corroded.

Delco solenoid pulls around 5- 7 amps at 10 volts. The type of relay being discussed is the type Ford sometimes uses on Bendix-drive starters - as well as older GM diesel trucks for the glow plugs - rated at 150 amps minimum. So 7 amps run through a 150 amp rated relay won't cause a drop. I doubt you're going to gain anything either.

 

[Manimal70]

I worked in several alternator/starter shops and have probably rebuilt 1000s of Delco 27MT starters (direct drive). Never, ever saw one with a "B" instead of an ""S." Maybe you've got a chinese solenoid and they translated wrong?

He wasnt referring to the "S" terminal,it was said he has seen a "B" in place of the "R".

 

[Gasoline Fumes]

A voltage drop is caused by resistance. Resistance is caused by wire too small, relay contacts too small, or relay contacts that are dirty/corroded.

Delco solenoid pulls around 5- 7 amps at 10 volts. The type of relay being discussed is the type Ford sometimes uses on Bendix-drive starters - as well as older GM diesel trucks for the glow plugs - rated at 150 amps minimum. So 7 amps run through a 150 amp rated relay won't cause a drop. I doubt you're going to gain anything either.

I meant with Manimal70's one-wire starter setup where the cranking current goes through the Ford relay. I'm trying to decide how to wire up the starter in my K20 when I swap the 6.2 in. Maybe I'll just make it so I can drop the starter with the wires still attached. Easier to service without adding extra parts.

 

[jdemaris]

He wasnt referring to the "S" terminal,it was said he has seen a "B" in place of the "R".

I can see that on some aftermarket caps or solenoid. Delco relay has "R" that stands for "resistor bypass." So yeah, I can see somebody using a "B" for "bypass" instead of "R" for resistor. Not a normal Delco convention though.

 

[smackzed]

Both of those solenoids were attached to Delco starters and had soldered rather than stud/nut connection. Anyway, small point like I said.

 

[jdemaris]

I meant with Manimal70's one-wire starter setup where the cranking current goes through the Ford relay. I'm trying to decide how to wire up the starter in my K20 when I swap the 6.2 in. Maybe I'll just make it so I can drop the starter with the wires still attached. Easier to service without adding extra parts.

Yes, likely the Ford type relay is inadequate and will result in a drop. But they are NOT all the same. The common SW3 Motorcraft relay that is often referred to is only rated at 150 amps. That is fine for many gas engines.

These relays may look similar but can differ a lot. Some are high amp, some low. Some for full-time use and some for intermittent. Some with very low draw (1/2 amp) and some with draw as high at 8 amps.

Delco starters on 6.2 diesels come in 280 amp and 350 amp versions.

So, if you really want this remote relay, use one rated for high amps. NOT one sold for gas-engine Ford cars and trucks. I can buy the HD relays for $15 - $20. Rated up to 800 amps surge. The cheap "Ford" relays often for less then $5.

 

[jdemaris]

Both of those solenoids were attached to Delco starters and had soldered rather than stud/nut connection. Anyway, small point like I said.

The Delco US made 27MT DD starters for 6.2s have threaded studs.
The Delco Japan-made 28MT GR starters for 6.2s have one soldered on terminal. Common for Asian-built starters.

27MT draws 275 amps
28M draws 444 amps or 320 amps -depending on version.

 

[smackzed]

Both starters were DD, both had soldered connection, both were Delco, No idea of where they were made. One of them was from the tow truck that the wrecker used to use. Knew the history of it and remembered installing the starter in the mid '90's. Could be that they were asian, whoever the rebuilt starter that I got this summer was put in a box by Champion, originally Hitachi, made in Japan, and I believe rebuilt in Mexico. It had all stud/nut connections.