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Discussion Starter #1
well its time to get a new starter for my 6.2. what do you guys recommend? just a stock replacement? i have heard about a bosch gear reduction starter but i cant kind much info on it. what do you guys run?

thanks
 

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Direct Drive is better

I have a rebuilt direct drive starter, comparable to the original. It turns the engine over very quickly so no starting or fuel delivery problems. I have tried gear reduction starters and I do not like them since they seem to turn the engine over too slowly. One of the contributors quoted 650 rpm for a direct drive starter and 250 rpm for a gear reduction starter. I cannot confirm that big a difference but it is noticeable to me. The gear reduction starters are apparently cheaper and used in most later model GM trucks, I guess the bean counters like them.

The gear reduction starter needs a different support bracket because of a smaller starter housing, but otherwise should fit.
 

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When my starter died i got a reman unit from napa(direct drive)... $165.00 works great cranks the motor over faster than the one that was in the truck before. If/when I have to do it again I'm goin for a new non-reman due to the fact I was chattin with the guy that does the warranty work on all the parts that come back defective.... our starters are on that list..... well for the remans not the new ones.
 

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KGs6.2K5;1569539; said:
well its time to get a new starter for my 6.2. what do you guys recommend? just a stock replacement? i have heard about a bosch gear reduction starter but i cant kind much info on it. what do you guys run?

thanks

GM stopped using direct-drive starters on their diesels mid-1988 - and since them they've got gear-reduction starters on all their diesels, including the Duramax. For that reason alone, the claims I hear about he gear-reduction starters cranking slower than the older direct-drive starters - is pretty silly. Are all the new truck owners complaining that their 6.5s and later Duramaxs don't start as good as the old 6.2s?

I changed most of my older 6.2 starters to gear-reduction - and they crank much better in severe cold weather. I suspect part of the myth being spread around about them - might be due to some of the inferior starters being used. The OEM gear-reduction starter used by GM is the Delco 28MT rated at 4 KW and a 3.8 to 1 reduction. There are many Chinese replacement clones on the market - and some are very good - and some are not and less powerful. The good Chinese starters are rated 3.7 KW, draw 750 amps under load, and are much better than the older direct-drive starters - in regard to cold cranking power and durability. I've bought them brand-new (not rebuilt) for less than $100 - but prices are going up.
Having gear reduction greatly reduces shock loads and high-amp draw at first cranking. Try driving a car or truck with standard shift - by starting out in high gear - as compared to first gear. It's obvious things start moving better in a low gear.
A direct drive starter - like the original 27 MT Delco on the 6.2s, #1 is not as durable as the later starters. The other factor is - they are getting old and not in production anymore. Most on the market have been patched up with aftermarket parts - some of those replacement parts as good as OEM, but some much worse. Most of the time, if you have a starter problem, you can buy a brand-new gear-reduction - for the price of - or less than - fixing an old direct-drive Delco 27MT.
 

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What you need to do when you change the starter is put a 0 or 00 gauge cable on there to get the starter the power it needs.
I kept the starter and changed the cable form 4ga to 00 gauge, it was like going form old warn out batteries to new high $ bigger batteries.
Very worth while mod.
See sig.
 

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I like the direct drive starter. I've messed around with gear-drive starters and they do not seem to deliver the same kind of results that the direct drive starters do. In addition, I don't believe the cheap Chinese-made geared starters are as tough as the direct drive starters.

This has been discussed quite a few times before and the general consensus seems to be that the gear-reduction starters work better for some people and worse for others. I don't know why that is. I do know why GM went to a geared starter on the later trucks (and it wasn't because they are better starters). It was a cost-cutting measure. The geared starter draws less current and therefore can use smaller wiring which is much less expensive. In addition, it is cheaper to use the small motor the geared starter uses.
 

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High Sierra 2500;1573842; said:
I do know why GM went to a geared starter on the later trucks (and it wasn't because they are better starters). It was a cost-cutting measure. The geared starter draws less current and therefore can use smaller wiring which is much less expensive. In addition, it is cheaper to use the small motor the geared starter uses.
Wire sizes and resultant voltage drops are the same now in 2007 Chevys as it was in the 80s with 6.2 diesels. Depending on the cable lengths, #2 or #4 cable is installed OEM. In regard to your claim of the "geared starter draws less current" - that is not true at all. The older direct-drive Delco 27MT has a maximum power output of 3.6 KWs. The newer Delco 28MT gear-reduction starter makes more power and draws more amps and is rated at 3.7 KWs. The big difference is - it draws steady amps - the later GR starter does not develop a huge surge of startup current when first trying to turn - and this is what makes more durable. And in regard to the new GR starters being slower?? In a 6.2 or 6.5 diesel, the direct-drive starter at 10 VDC spins the motor at approx. 110 RPM, and the GR starter at 10 VDC spins it at 130 RPM.

And - about your assertion of the gear-reduction starter being a cost-cutting measure? I agree that U.S. companies, have many times cheapened their products and wound up paying for it later. I guess you need to define what "cost cutting" means. If they use a better product that cuts down on warranty work - that is also cost-cutting - in the long run. I've got three auto-engineers in my family - all from Dearborn/Detroit. I've heard some info about what has been involved - first hand - with GM, Ford and Chrysler - to compete in this country. Ford and GM have purchased Italian, German, and Japanese cars and trucks - taken them apart - and attempted to copy some of the attributes that makes them last so long. Ford calls it their "Robustness Program." In a way, that's kind of funny - since Honda and Datsun/Nissan -early on - copied our technology -and then improved upon it - to make their first cars and trucks for U.S. use.
You also alluded to Chinese stuff being inferior to U.S. built components. That kind of takes me back to the late 50s, early 60s when all Japanese stuff was considered "cheap junk." Now, it's "high-end." The reality now is - much of the Chinese stuff IS absolute crap - but some other stuff is very high quality. Hopefully, the U.S. automakers buy carefully. When I have the choice of buying tools or auto-parts - I'd much rather see the majority of the cost go to what I am actually buying - instead of the bulk of it funding elaborate pay and benefit packages for relatively unskilled U.S. auto workers.
 

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JD, we have discussed this before. I agree to disagree on this topic.
 

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High Sierra 2500;1574080; said:
JD, we have discussed this before. I agree to disagree on this topic.
I guess I'm not sure what we're "agreeing to disgree" with? I've seen a few people post here - including you - saying they don't like GR starters - but I haven't seen a single person state, specifically what starter they are dissappointed with. There are many variations on the market.
I have been very specific -with series numbers and power ratings.

Also - in regard to GM using GR starters and cheaping out with smaller cables? Very easy to verify and it's not true. Nothing nebulous or etherial here - either the cables are downsized - or they are not.
 

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In my opinion, the direct drive starter is more durable than the later geared starters. The direct drive starter is built to be extremely tough and it is very durable. The main weak points in the design are the mounting points, the brushes, and the solenoid. All of those weak points are incorporated into the geared starter (all of them, not just certain brands) and the brushes are usually smaller on the geared starters.

I don't think the geared starter actually functions as well as the direct drive unit. I do understand, however, that some people do have better luck with them, so that may simply be due to my own personal experience. Personally, I have never liked them.

On the subject of imported parts, I haven't had good luck with them and I do buy USA made parts for my truck. I have, on occasion, bought foreign parts for it, usually because I could not afford the USA made parts, but I can't remember one occasion when I wasn't impressed by the poor quality of the imported parts.

GM did go with geared starters for cost reasons. With more and more electrical equipment on vehicles there are greater and greater electrical requirements and using a gear reduction starter is just one more way of getting by with the same cable (which was a little too small to begin with in many cases) or a smaller one to run more and more stuff. The '07 Chevy may use the same cable as an '80s Chevy with a 6.2, but the '07 has to run a whole lot more stuff in addition to the starter.
 

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High Sierra 2500;1574920; said:
In my opinion, the direct drive starter is more durable than the later geared starters. The direct drive starter is built to be extremely tough and it is very durable. The main weak points in the design are the mounting points, the brushes, and the solenoid. All of those weak points are incorporated into the geared starter (all of them, not just certain brands) and the brushes are usually smaller on the geared starters.
No, not all the weaks points from the DD starter exist in the GR starter. DD starters can suffer meltdown from overcranking and subsequently commutator meltdown, field wire meltdown, etc. Also, the high shock load of initial cranking tends to hammer out the starter-drive stop on the end of the armature. The GR reduction starter is more resistant to those problems. I was working as a HD diesel mechanic when companies e.g. Deere, Case, IH, etc. began to change over to GR starters to improve reliablitiy. That was not cost-cutting - the GR starters made by Nippo Denso cost more than the DD Delcos - not less. And, they held up to abuse much better. With the chronologly of diesel starting systems - I saw it go from gas pony motors - to 24 volt fine-wire DD starters, to 12 volt DD starters - and eventually to 12 V GR starters in many applications. And, reliability got better every step of the way.

High Sierra 2500;1574920; said:
I don't think the geared starter actually functions as well as the direct drive unit. I do understand, however, that some people do have better luck with them, so that may simply be due to my own personal experience. Personally, I have never liked them.
You and others with bad GR starter experiences have not yet specificed exacty what make and model starter you find to be inferior.

High Sierra 2500;1574920; said:
On the subject of imported parts, I haven't had good luck with them and I do buy USA made parts for my truck. I have, on occasion, bought foreign parts for it, usually because I could not afford the USA made parts, but I can't remember one occasion when I wasn't impressed by the poor quality of the imported parts.
I've had some bad experiences with cheap Chinese and Indian made parts. Also had some very good sucess - like anything else - you have to pick and choose. Take a brake master cyliner - for example. Rebuilts are a waste of money. Go to buy new - even from the major U.S. companies - most now will be from China and are excellent quality. If you do find a new one made in the U.S. it will be close to $100 instead of $50.
Even the new 6.2 and 6.5 diesel cylinder heads being sold by major parts suppliers are made in China and they are excellent quality. Better than nay head GM ever made for the same engine. Castings are 4 lbs. heavier and come with hardened seat-inserts.

High Sierra 2500;1574920; said:
GM did go with geared starters for cost reasons. With more and more electrical equipment on vehicles there are greater and greater electrical requirements and using a gear reduction starter is just one more way of getting by with the same cable (which was a little too small to begin with in many cases) or a smaller one to run more and more stuff. The '07 Chevy may use the same cable as an '80s Chevy with a 6.2, but the '07 has to run a whole lot more stuff in addition to the starter.
The battery cables don't run anything once the engine is running.
 

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ease up on the coffee you two! i have ddrive starters on the farm yet in all the 6.2s here. weather stays 10 or above so not to hard to start. i allways address starting issues and do not overheat the starters just cranking them. as far as rebuilds i do them my self and always try and get the best parts i can. my brother has a gear reduction starter and he lives in cold country and his 6.5 crate motor always starts and is never plugged in.
 

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farmer0_1;1575717; said:
ease up on the coffee you two! i have ddrive starters on the farm yet in all the 6.2s here. weather stays 10 or above so not to hard to start. i allways address starting issues and do not overheat the starters just cranking them. as far as rebuilds i do them my self and always try and get the best parts i can. my brother has a gear reduction starter and he lives in cold country and his 6.5 crate motor always starts and is never plugged in.
Hey, I'm just attempting to separate fact from fiction. Too many people read something on the Internet that sounds good, believe it and spread the mis-facts. With starters on diesels - they often get abused - that is expected. Diesels start harder than gas engines. I've never made any general or blanket statement about any of the starters being all bad. The direct-drives though - as far as I know - are no longer being made new - whereas the GR starters are. There have been several comments on this forum stating that the GR starters are all inferior - which is simply rediculous. Now, maybe someone HAS had a bad experience with a certain make or model - but I've yet to see a single poster provide that information.
 

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I'm now officially off of this thread. This is a waste of my time. I'm off for a ride on my snowmobile... Much more fun. :cool:
 

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I have a gear reduction starter on my truck, A local electric shop could not rebuild my starter, and after having my old starter for longer then the quoted time, they sold me a gear reduction unit at a real good price. plus they will warranty it if i have any problems.
Mine seems to turn the motor over faster, but I don't really recall becasue i was starter-less for over a week, plus I cleaned the cables up good so that may have helped. The best part is it weighs about half of what the old one did, so it made it about 1000x easier to install.
 

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Jdemaris.

Could you give us more info on the 28MT starters to look for? There are many sellers on eBay and I'd like to avoid the low quality ones.:D
 

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I am not taking favor of either starter system.

I will say that my journeman's ticket, four years of school and years of experience will certainly say that the gear reduction starter was never intended to be a cost cutter by any manufacturer. It is simply an advance in technology. The gear reduction starters are designed to run the electric motor at a higher speed and operate at a constant amperage draw. The motors in the two starter styles have completely different operational circuits and wiring. The final drive speed of the starters gear are likely not much different until the voltage is low, that is when the gear reduction starter is likely to outperform the old style.

I have owned both styles on a few diesels. They all did the job fine.
 

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a couple months late

I wish this would have been discussed earlier . . . Before i bought a new dd starter. The AC delco in there didn't even look old, and it was under a lifetime warranty, but since I was NOT the original buyer, no free replacement.


Thanks For spreading Knowlege - even tho i don't spell well
 

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BKinzey;1579598; said:
Jdemaris.

Could you give us more info on the 28MT starters to look for? There are many sellers on eBay and I'd like to avoid the low quality ones.:D
You have to watch for deals and buy carefully. Most of the new gear-reduction starters for sale - all over the place including Ebay - are referred to as "high torque model 6468."
That is not the high-torque model. THe high-torque models I've used are #6469. I contacted on Ebay seller and asked about it - and he replied he also stocks the better starter - but I did not get a recent price. I bought mine for uner a $100 brand new - NOT rebuilt. I've included the specs. below.
I've been told that some of the Chinese starters are exact clones of the 28MT Delcos . . and Delco replacement parts work in them. I checked with AC Delco recently. It's actually a different company now - and they are actually making some of the new 6.5 diesel engines! Weird. The new company is called Delco Remy International and they make GM 6.5 diesel engines and also Ford IH diesel engines.
Delco no longer makes the direct-drive starters - and if you order one from them - they sub it to the newer 28MT gear-reduction starter.

Right now - there is a heck of a deal on Ebay Express - someone has a few brand-new, OEM Delco 28MT starters for sale - brand new - for $80 each. I think it is item #220070199626
Says there are eight left - I've been tempted top buy them all.

Here's the link:

http://item.express.ebay.com/Vehicle-Parts-Accessories_Car-Truck-Parts__1113296-DELCO-CHEVY-GMC-DIESEL-STARTER-6-2L-6-5L_W0QQitemZ220070199626QQihZ012QQddnZVehicleQ20PartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQadnZCarQ20Q26Q20TruckQ20PartsQQcmdZExpressItem
Here are the specs. on the real high-torque Chinese starter:

3.5 KW, 12 volts, 5148 free-run RPM and 132 amps, 3.7KW under load, 748 amps draw under load, 1532 RPM under load, 23 Nm torque, 9 volts under load, 1278 brake current, 24.7 Nm brake-torque. Part # 6469, ser. # 14928 Zhejiang Jinci Electrial Appliance Co. LTD.
 

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dieselgrinder;1579658; said:
I wish this would have been discussed earlier . .
I've mentioned it many times in many posts -going back 10 years. But . . . many people reply with general statements saying the GR starters are "slow and no good" which is rediculous. Not a single person yet - who complains about them - has responded with any specific facts about what actual starter they've had bad experience with.

There are two types of GR starters in general use - but only one type for the 6.2s and 6.5s. They use conventional gears. There is another type that looks like a direct-drive - but is actually a gear-reduction with planetary gears. This keeps the phyical size down so it will fit into tight places. All my Volkswagen diesels have planetary starters on them now. So do my Case and IH diesel tractors. and my Allis Chalmers bulldozer.
 
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