[Roegs]

For those who might not be members of TDP, Racor posted yesterday evening that they are coming out with a new DMAX additional filter system. They expect to have something in 6 to 8 weeks. The text (including some additional comments on rusty filters and additives) is below:


Quote by Racor...


I have not heard or seen any warranty issues on "pre-rusted" elements. I would think that at least one rusty can would get back through GM return system for our inspection. Whenever you have metal surfaces, painted, coated or otherwise, there is always the chance that you could get rust and corrosion under humid conditions.

If the corrosion is a few spots found on the inside (dirty side) of the can, it's really not that serious. But then I'm talking here to serious truck owners where nothing short of ultimate 100% protection is the requirement. Therefore, I would suggest trading the filter in for a new one.

Most of the returns we see involving corrosion, contain rust that wasn't from the Racor filter. Of course if a lot of water is present in the fuel, and it just sits in the bottom of the can month after month, you will get corrosion and rust eventually. One more reason to drain water from the filter weekly, dash light or no dash light.

Some people here in the forum seem to think that emulsifiying water in the fuel system with additives will avoid corrosion. But there is some evidence that those types of additives allow water to bypass the filter and enter the injection system. There the water corrodes sensitive parts. Even Bosch is worried about that. A water de-emulsifier would be a better choice. Get the water out before the injection system.

Racor is coming out with a R60 kit to put ahead of the OEM filter. With two filters, the primary can remove bulk water, asphaltines, and quite a bit of solids. The OEM secondary can then remove the rest of the water and take another shot at the particles. The particle count difference can be dramatic. Give us 6 to 10 weeks; the electronics are difficult to match to the DMAX system. That's the hold up. Expect a heater kit too.

While were talking about particle counts, you might want to put a filtered air breather on your fuel tank. If you are in a dusty environment, the tank vent is open to all that. I don't know if that will cause odd behavior in the fuel system, but it's worth looking at. Don't let the particles in in the first place.


End of Quote...Edited by: Roegs

 

[56Nomad]

On The Diesel Page "Racor" writes in part:

Racor is coming out with a R60 kit to put ahead of the OEM filter.
With two filters, the primary can remove bulk water, asphaltines,
and quite a bit of solids. The OEM secondary can then remove the
rest of the water and take another shot at the particles. The
particle count difference can be dramatic. Give us 6 to 10 weeks;
the electronics are difficult to match to the DMAX system.
That's the hold up. Expect a heater kit too.

56Nomad wrote:

Racor,

Is that going to be an R60S (2 micron) or R60T (10 micron).... and
don't you have these available currently as your Model # 660? What
will be different? Thanks

Racor wrote:

Regarding the pre-filter kit, yes it is basically an R60T with a bracket. We're going with 10 micron, but you can use a 2 micron if you want to. The main advantage of the kit is that we're including special fittings to cleanly go from the filter threads to the steel piping on the truck. The kit will come with an electronic water detection probe that integrates into the existing DMAX dash warning light system. The electrical harness, connectors, fittings and bracket are ready, but the electronics aren't talking yet. There will also be a 200 watt heater option; or it may be standard. We're not going to let this kit go until it's done right.

jbplock writes........

Racor,

The kit sounds like it will be a very nice setup. Will installation require cutting
the OEM steel fuel line?

Racor writes........

Yes, you will have to cut the steel lines. It's easy and safe. Edited by: 56Nomad

 

[56Nomad]

Gosh....... Racor, that's exactly what I did the first
time around. My R60S (2 micron) is going to to moved
from under the airbox to the frame again.

Intuition is a tool to rely on.

 

[hoot]

What's the deal with electronics? All we need is the heater Racor options with the S Series systems. Add power and a relay firing off the OEM heater signal. When the OEM heater kicks in, so will the other. Since my filter is post-OEM, the OEM unit will heat the fuel before it goes into my post OEM. I don't need no stinkn heater.

The other electronics would be the water sensor. The S-series has a large clear polycarbonate bowl. I'm not so sure we need two water sensors. Matter of fact, we don't.

Georgecls,

It's quite apparent that Racor is in a sheltered development environment. What kind of demulsifying additive are they using and how well does it work? We have oil/fuel experts telling us the demulsifiers do not work well and we have filter manufacturers and auto (GM) manufacturers telling us to use demulsifying additives.

This is real confusing but I trust the oil/fuel experts more than the Racor POS OEM filter manufacturer.

The big question.... and this is the big question...

Why isn't Racor developing a better OEM filter? One that fits the stock location or a slightly modified location?


Edited by: hoot

 

[JEBar]

Hoot


"The big question.... and this is the big question...

Why isn't Racor developing a better OEM filter? One that fits the stock location or a slightly modified location?"



Amen ....

..... Jim

 

[Roegs]

At the risk of being shunned and possibly eternally banned from the forum, I’ll throw in my 2 cents on why Racor is not burning the <st1:time Hour="0" Minute="0">midnight</st1:time> oil developing a new filter system. I think it might be because its not quite as big of an issue as we’re making it out to be. Don’t get me wrong, I believe in clean fuel, and plan to add a filter. On the other hand, I’ve not seen direct evidence yet that our additional filters guarantee longer fuel component life. Most DMAX owners do not participate on these forums, and run their trucks just the way that the dealers tell them to. They enjoy the trucks, and most seem to get a lot of miles on them. We spend endless hours discussing filtration in hopes that it will prolong our fuel system life.

My neighbor, who is also a good friend works for Cummins designing fuel systems on their large generator systems. He has worked a number of fuel system projects with Bosch, and finds it very difficult to believe that Bosch has underestimated the American diesel fuel system as much as we think they have. He maintains Bosch has a better understanding of the design issues that we do, and that while clean fuel is always a plus, it may not be as big of a deal as we’re making it out to be.

 

[gsxr1216]

Hoot


"The big question.... and this is the big question...

Why isn't Racor developing a better OEM filter? One that fits the stock location or a slightly modified location?"



Amen ....

..... Jim

Seems to me that Racor is admitting (indirectly) that their OEM filter on the Dmax is not real good design since they are designing a 2nd filtration setup???? Seems to me they would make a lot more sales if they developed a better filter that mounted in the OEM position, then fuel line cutting and wiring and brakets and all that other BS needed to add a 2nd filter setup would not be needed.....

 

[hoot]

At the risk of being shunned and possibly eternally banned from the forum, I’ll throw in my 2 cents on why Racor is not burning the midnight oil developing a new filter system. I think it might be because its not quite as big of an issue as we’re making it out to be. Don’t get me wrong, I believe in clean fuel, and plan to add a filter. On the other hand, I’ve not seen direct evidence yet that our additional filters guarantee longer fuel component life. Most DMAX owners do not participate on these forums, and run their trucks just the way that the dealers tell them to. They enjoy the trucks, and most seem to get a lot of miles on them. We spend endless hours discussing filtration in hopes that it will prolong our fuel system life.

My neighbor, who is also a good friend works for Cummins designing fuel systems on their large generator systems. He has worked a number of fuel system projects with Bosch, and finds it very difficult to believe that Bosch has underestimated the American diesel fuel system as much as we think they have. He maintains Bosch has a better understanding of the design issues that we do, and that while clean fuel is always a plus, it may not be as big of a deal as we’re making it out to be.

For a couple of hundred bucks, what do you have to lose? CAT learned the hard way. They relied on the filter manufacturer to provide their filtration solutions and found out they did not use real world conditions in their testing. Racor themselves ADMITTED the testing by Isuzu was done using lab controlled fuels and was a mistake.

Georgecls has a wealth of info that tells the behind the scenes story behind the diesel fuel/filtration technology lag.



Edited by: hoot

 

[OC_DMAX]

I'll supplement what Roegs says above with Racor is just a filtration system manufacture. They were probably given a spec, by either Bosch or the GM/Isuzu DMAX Corp, to develop a filter head and fuel filter for the DMAX engine. As a supplier, they developed and produced what their customer wanted. Someone at GM or GM/Isuzu DMAX Corp most likely made the design decision to go with only one filter (really the problem). It was probably a cost driven decision. So what we ended up with is a marginally adequate design. It works under a lot of cases. But for dirty fuel over a long period of time, it may not be adequate.


The other thing to keep in mind, every injector failure is not due to marginal fuel filtration. The injectors are electro/mechanical devices. There are many modes of failure, some of which are driven by fuel cleanliness. Somewhere, there is a reliability engineer who is keeping track of all this (whether GM or Bosch). It would be interesting to see his/her summary on the modes of failure and the actual distribution of failures.Edited by: OC_DMAX

 

[chuntag95]

Let's think about real world numbers for a second. I had 2786 particles per ml (7 MILLION PER GALLON

) coming out of the pump. I had 781 particles per ml after just the OEM filter. The test of most of the systems with an extra filters are putting out numbers of 140 or less (for the most part Hoot

). All of that for what I pay in life insurrance for less than 6 months. At least I know I am getting SOMETHING for my money with the filter, fuel 5 times cleaner than it was before and that is a conservative estimate. Cheapest insurance for $370 ea injectors you can buy.

 

[OC_DMAX]

Definitely agree with Chuntag95's statement above.


Read SAE Paper 980969, where an experimental study was undertaken to determine High Pressure Fuel System wear (on a Cummins) versus particle count. From this paper, you can back into the ISO Cleanliness Codes of 15/13/10 specified by George Morrison.

 

[FirstDiesel]

Hoot





The main reason they are not building a replacement filter for the OEM location would be admitting they built the wrong filter for GM and opening themselves to GM's wrath and GM to lawsuits.

 

[Ray403Dmax]

Racor built the filter to GM's spec as certain as GM tested and accepted Racor's design otherwise it wouldn't be in production. If there is an issue and I suspect there is (aren't new injector designs using hardened materials?), I lay more fault at GM's feet for not understanding diesel fuel filter design issues.


The ball is in GM's court to identify design flaws, re-specify the requirements, test new filter designs, request for bids on new filter designs, and then verify new filter designs meet spec. This is a long lead time and will only affect future model year Dmaxes.

 

[Tom Cobb]

I have been contemplating the additional fuel filter issue and today convinced me to stop comtemplating. On one other occasion and today I was running on the aux tank which has an inline filter before the switching valve to protect the valve. I have about 12 gallons of fuel in the aux tank and the engine shuts down from apparent fuel starvation. I got off the road and checked for air at the filter and had none. I switched tanks to the main which had very little fuel since I was checking for a low fuel level light problem and had not refuel it and the engine would not restart. I disconnected the juice and still nothing. The truck was leaning to one side on a slight slope and finally after a few minutes it restarted and I got to a station and refuel the main tank.


Now, it seems that the inline filter is clogging intermittenly or there is something in the aux tank that is periodically blocking the fuel feed line. I am going to check the inline filter tomorrow and install a CAT filter head and short filter (2 micron) on the frame forward of the switching valve so I can filter fuel from both tanks. The inline filter will stay but I installing a different filter that I believe will filter better. It is a NAPA filter steel mesh filter like car injection system use. It's primary purpose is just to protect the valve.


I want to be sure I am keeping junk out. I plan to change the CAT and engine filter at the same time. The CAT filter is $10.48 and the filter head is $65.00 at the local CAT dealer and that is cheap insurance. The filter price is cheap enough to change often.

Another note and I will stop. This truck is next to impossible to turn with the engine off. I weigh 290 lbs and 6' 2" and I could barely turn the steering wheel enough to start off into a parking lot and you need a wide place to turn into to do it. A small person or woman would never steer this truck without power steering. You can keep it straight but beyond that forget it.

TomEdited by: Tom Cobb

 

[Frank Blum]

Why would Racor redesign the OEM filter without being contracted by GM? Like someone already said: GM bought off on the filter. If Racor came out tomorrow with one as good as the Mega, Cat, etc. etc. would we run it without GM's blessing? I doubt it. Warranty is still a major concern with all of us. We have not kept the OEM filter just because it has a water sensor. Right or wrong? Later! Frank

 

[Georgecls]

Regarding GM's position on not providing better filtration.  A significant driving force in reliability is warranty, failures during warranty, costs to GM (or any manufacturer); failures which occur after warranty become a profit center..  So, if a fuel filtration system does a fairly good job of getting the engine through warranty with relatively low cost to a manufacturer, mission accomplished.  The same problem exists even in class 8 over the road trucks.  I received a call from an owner operator last week who had taken his relatively new Peterbilt in for a tune up as it was running a little rough.  The Cummins engine was 7,000 miles out of warranty but he had little concern as it just needed a 'tune up'.  The tune up cost him $3,700.  Four new injectors at $560 each plus labor, etc..  Made it through warranty just fine..... 8 years ago the same tune-up for a Cummins Big Cam IV would have been less than $500.  Injectors for the Big Cam were $28 exchange!


So it comes down to dollars, reasonable performance and reliability during warranty.  After that, as long as it is not a safety issue, Kaching!...


Additionally, we have the engineering/laboratory reference ISO rated filters. If Isuzu requested a 5 micron beta 2000 filter fuel, Racor or other filter manufacturer would readily comply with that request.  But as has been discovered in the real world, a laboratory rated filter changes dramatically in the dynamics of diesel engine operation along with real world fuel contamination, microbials, and even fuel base stocks.  It is a very rare day when CAT walks out of its hallowed doors looking for help and they indeed did several years ago as they had no internal answers for the high rate of injector failures which were occurring during warranty. 


These newly designed high pressure fuel systems, wonderfully efficient as they are, are creating new frontiers for engine manufacturers.  As I have mentionede previously, the issues being discussed here as everyday talk are light years ahead of what is discussed at national trucking technical conferences. 


George Morrison


 


 


 


 Edited by: Georgecls

 

[a bear]

George,


That has been my opinion on this all along. From the dollars and cents standpoint it is in GM's best interest to get the trucks past 100K and then continue to make profit selling parts afterwards. With the low incidences of fuel system repairs under 100K (warranty) I would say that their mission is accomplished.

 

[OC_DMAX]

Think of what has happened over the last year:


We as a collective group (a lot of people with various backgrounds) have investigated and addressed the filtration issues for the DMAX. A number of design solutions have been brought to market (Nick's Cat System, Kennedy's Mega filter and Greg's Racor kit). People have worked through the design issues for each of these add-on products. For the do-it yourself type, he can buy the parts to put together a Cat, Racor or Stanadyne system themselves very easily. We have tested the above systems by sending fuel samples to an independent lab. We have qualified the Cat, Baldwin and Racor filters to meet the minimum ISO Codes of 15/13/10 defined by George. The data from the tests is tablulated and available for everyone to review.


The accomplishments over the last year is something for everyone to be proud of and to take advantage of. To quote George from above "the issues being discussed here as everyday talk are light years ahead of what is talked about at national trucking technical conferences". Pretty amazing for a bunch of Internet junkies!!

 

[fishdmax]

Well said Alan

 

[Ray403Dmax]

It will be interesting to see what this new R60 Racor filter kit costs. Anyone know when more info will be available?


For me the only undesirable talk is


"Racor writes........

Yes, you will have to cut the steel lines. It's easy and safe. "