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Hello,


I just recieved the new 6- gun brochure in the mail. It has some interesting info. and claims. I think some simple testing will help us all get to the bottom of this.


" Consider that when you see the astronomical power and torque claims making the rounds: Banks has thouroughly tested the competitions tuners, and their numbers are not what they claim!"


Banks has tried to convinced us that dyno methods are flawed and inaccurate. My next question would then be, what about real life performance. Banks post a 0-60 time of 7.9 seconds unloaded and 19.1 seconds with an extra 15000 pounds. The exact same stats from other tuners/chips would tell us who was really making more power. Although Banks does not print 1/4 mile times I have good reason to believe they can produce in the 15.25-16 second range unloaded. Any comparisons?


" While watching the boost gauge and not paying attention to the speedometer my girlfriend exclaimed loudly that I was at 100 MPH, with half a pedal left."


The above quote was from a customer with a 8000LB dually duramax. It did not give the year or any other details.


Does the 6-gun remove the rev limiter? My truck falls down at 96MPH. Maybe duallys did not have rev limiters?





I bring this info forward because I am still unsure of the six gun-power levels. I understand the 6-gun monitors tranny slip/convertor lock up very accurately. I also understand the six gun is at a low enough power level that tranny problems are not likely to accure. I also understand the six- gun will pass the California sniffer test ( emissions).


I am still very unsure as to the real world seat of the pants feeling or lack of that I will receive from the six-gun? Time slips do not lie. I have tons of EDGE data with no load. Unfortunetly I have no data from EDGE when a heavy load is applied. Edited by: Bronco
 

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Bronco said:
Banks has tried to convinced us that dyno methods are flawed and inaccurate. My next question would then be, what about real life performance. Banks post a 0-60 time of 7.9 seconds unloaded and 19.1 seconds with an extra 15000 pounds. The exact same stats from other tuners/chips would tell us who was really making more power. Although Banks does not print 1/4 mile times I have good reason to believe they can produce in the 15.25-16 second range. Any comparisons?

My CC/DA will run 0-60 in ~6.0-6.2 secs with the 125 Edge. Loaded, I have no idea... Probably not too much different from Banks, as EGTs will have a big impact on what you can put down (yes, the Attitude will back down accordingly)...
 

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Bronco,


I've run my Six-Gun w/speedloader 0-60 a dozen times. On level 6, it's from 6.9-7.1. The 1/4 mile on level 6 was from 15.25-15.45. This is on a extended cab short box unloaded. We've read all of the dyno numbers and know that Banks does their testing differently from all others. We also know that the Six-Gun equals a 90-100hp box from the others in a drag race. You know what would REALLY be interesting? Hooking up a 10k-15k lb trailer behind these trucks with different modules and running them in the 1/4-mile. Now you've got the load Banks is talking about in their testing. If the EDGE and similiar products STILL outpull the Six-Gun when loaded, then I guess we all know what the final answer is. Oh, and the claim about the girlfriend looking down and seeing 100mph on the speedo-that made me laugh. The speedlimiter on GM trucks is officially clocked at 97mph from GM. The banks DOES NOT bypass that speedlimiter. Must have little donuts on that big one-ton to throw the speedo off.
 

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Just a quick note regarding making comparisons on acceleration times; compare the improvements in percentage. For instance, the Six-Gun literature shows improvements from 22% up to 38%, with the loaded vehicle posting better gains. When running the Edge or any other product, do the same type of percentage improvement comparison and then compare those percentages to the Six-Gun. This eliminates differences in individual vehicle weights, road conditions, etc.
 

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Every time I see one of these Banks Six-Gun threads it takes me back to being a kid .





Watching the explanation on performance theroy from Banks is like a magic show.I still like magic today ,thanks for the entertainment.Whats the percentage the magician never yanks a rabbit out of the hat with or with out a loaded arm with watches ?


On with the show.Edited by: Reggie
 

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Bronco said:
Banks post a 0-60 time of 7.9 seconds unloaded and 19.1 seconds with an extra 15000 pounds. The exact same stats from other tuners/chips would tell us who was really making more power. Although Banks does not print 1/4 mile times I have good reason to believe they can produce in the 15.25-16 second range unloaded. Any comparisons?

Mine went from 8.4sec stock to 5.3 sec (a 42% gain) with 0psi off idle launch. I think we all know by now that the Banks claims are the most far fetched claims ever seen for the Duramax. The real question is will they make it right with the Race Box.
 

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GOOD POINT REGGIE.....I saw this thread and hoped they(banks) relented and took a real look at their advertising........of course I was wrong again....they went the other way. Peter you seem to be rather intelligent are these ads your doing or someone else forcing your hand?........
 

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The new race box from Banks better leave a dent in your forehead from the garage door opener flying off the visor, turn a stock Allison transmission into shredded beef, and leave a coating of piston material all over the exhaust valves, or it won’t be enough to please their critics.

SD, I thought the same as you when I saw this post.


Huck
 

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WI Huck said:
The new race box from Banks better leave a dent in your forehead from the garage door opener flying off the visor, turn a stock Allison transmission into shredded beef, and leave a coating of piston material all over the exhaust valves, or it won’t be enough to please their critics.

SD, I thought the same as you when I saw this post.


Huck




OMG that is funny .... How about roll the paint right up on the hood too ....





Mac
 

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Mackin said:
WI Huck said:
The new race box from Banks better leave a dent in your forehead from the garage door opener flying off the visor, turn a stock Allison transmission into shredded beef, and leave a coating of piston material all over the exhaust valves, or it won’t be enough to please their critics.

SD, I thought the same as you when I saw this post.


Huck




OMG that is funny .... How about roll the paint right up on the hood too ....





Mac

When my LINE-X peels off from the acceleration, then I'd be happy






T
NY
 

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BANK'S race box ad


the girl friend was driving this time Edited by: sdaver
 

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That's some serious acceleration. Yikes. C'mon racebox.
 

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Reggie,
I’m not sure what seems like magic to you, for me its just high school math, so I guess it kind of takes me back to being a kid too.

Amric,
Speaking of math, let’s check yours. To evaluate a percentage improvement, you take the before number (8.4 sec), subtract the after number (5.3 sec), divide by the before number and multiply by 100: ((8.4-5.3)/8.4)*100=36.9%. This is not quite the 42% that you came up with, but it is still respectable. Assuming that this is an unloaded 0-60 mph time that you are talking about, it beats the Six-Gun at 22%. This does not surprise me for the same reason that other boxes (Edge, Quad) post high power numbers on acceleration dynos. These boxes start to fuel aggressively with minimal to moderate throttle application. The byproducts of doing so are black smoke and excessive emissions. The Six-Gun for the Duramax is an emissions legal device. The Race box will fuel more aggressively at lighter throttle application and will not be emissions legal. I am not unaccepting of the idea that a competitor's box may post better numbers than ours under some of the test conditions that have been used by people in this forum, but I also know that under full load conditions, the Six-Gun outperforms the others, and it does it within emissions limitations and without high EGT or excessive fuel pressure.

Sdaver,
I’m not sure what you mean when you ask if someone is forcing my hand. One of my tasks as Director of Technical Communications is to review data that is generated by our Engineering Test Group and make sure that it is accurate before it is used by the Marketing Department for advertising. My background includes ample hands-on testing, so I know what is involved in gathering the data. I don’t understand why everyone seems so upset by my original post. All I was suggesting was that people make the comparisons based on percentage improvement rather than on the actual times, because the actual times will always vary from vehicle to vehicle and depending on all conditions when the test was performed. Comparing a percentage improvement at least will minimize most of those factors. Amric is the only one that I have seen showing legitimate before and after numbers in a comparison test. The best possible way to run a test like this would be to have one truck with multiple boxes all tested on the same day and in the same location.
 

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PeterT said:
I am not unaccepting of the idea that a competitor's box may post better numbers than ours under some of the test conditions that have been used by people in this forum, but I also know that under full load conditions, the Six-Gun outperforms the others, and it does it within emissions limitations and without high EGT or excessive fuel pressure.

Peter,


I think what you just said is the problem. Your advertising states that the six-gun is the most powerful module for the Duramax on the market, NOT the most powerful module under full load conditions with emission, EGT or fuel pressure limitations.


You may get those other details from the rest of your ad copy but the main line says:


The Six-Gun Tuner offers the highest proven horsepower and torque—up to +128 hp and +345 lb-ft of ground-chewing power, and with Speed-Loader, up to +155 hp and +385 lb-ft (with recommended Six-Gun Bundle airflow improvements).


That line is a far cry different from what you said. If your ad said that Banks offers the highest proven horsepower while maintaining safe EGT, emissions and fuel pressure I think everyone would be much less prone to attack.


I really do like my exhaust kit, it is top notch. (tip is too
). I just think that the ad writers are making it easy for folks to slam you. Edited by: BMDMAX
 

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I've ran both the edge and the six gun/speed loader. I ran the edge for about a month and was really suprised with the power and fuel gains. The banks has let me down in both departments. I had one theory, the banks power falls off @1900 rpms I'm told. Alot of my driving around 70 mph which puts me on the downward curve in the power. Then I read how the throttle responce is slower to come in on the banks and it rang a bell that two would cause the mileage to suffer. All right all you smart guys out there am I warm or not even in the ball park?
 

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hey peter
punch a 4.71 0-60 in your calculator(it will give you a number to compete with on the race box). Brandon hit the nail on the head and ditto on the exhaust.......


peter wrote: "The best possible way to run a test like this would be to have one truck with multiple boxes all tested on the same day and in the same location."

Its been done.......had a chance to do it again in LA but your truck was a no show








Edited by: sdaver
 

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Everybody has a point here, including PeterT. Anybody have a Banks Six-Gun w/speedloader already installed on their truck and have access to a 1/4 mile of straight road? One could take the same truck the same day with the Banks and make a couple of runs with a 10-15000lb trailer hooked behind. After, hook up the bypass to the Six-Gun. Then take a couple of programmers like the Bullydog, Hypertech and Quad and run them through the paces-even try an Edge if time permits. This will finally put to rest about the way the Six-Gun works. Maybe we'll be surprised by the performance of the Banks, maybe not. It sure would be interesting. I don't think we are going to get anywhere until someone has the truck/time/programmers/access to do this. Just my thought...
 

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Peter


Or should I say David Blaine


Here is some basic math.Seen a buddy with a Max run a 219 stock.He proceeded to put a Edge box on rated at 145 RWHP. He smacked down a 403. Now if I'm doing the math correctly that's a gain of 184 RWHP and a gain of 84%.


I'll garranty if you went for a ride with your stopwatch you could be the poster child in their wet pants add.


Know any card tricks?
 

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Discussion Starter #20
My original post was intended to highlight two points in BANKS latest brochure. First Banks states that there competitors are over estimating there power gains. Second, the brochure states a quote from a customer who is going 100MPH and is only at half throttle.


In an effort to prove/disprove BANKS claims of there competitors lying about output, I suggested some simple real life 0-60 MPH and 1/4 mile times both loaded and unloaded.


I think it only fair to assume the BANKS times I posted earlyer were with a stock transmission and only by stomping on the throttle with no powerbraking and high boost launches. Street tires and 2wd for that matter. Banks post a 0-60 time of 7.9 seconds. I would be curious to see other competitors times in the exact same scenario. Street tires, 2wd, no stack, (exaust, air filter, wastegate allowed) and by stomping the throttle only.


If you want to look at it the other way around you could say any kind of launch you want. If I am correct the BANKS is capable of 0-60 in 7 seconds and a 1/4 mile of 15.25 seconds. Edge is capable of 0-60 in 6-6.5 seconds and 1/4 miles of 14.25 second range.


It appears the EDGE is 1 second faster in a basically stock unloaded form. I am not sure what levels the EDGE was ran at and what the smoke level was? Obviously there is a large margin between California Emissions legal and huge black smoke. There has to be a happy medium.


I am still curious as to how other devices would stack up to the six-gun in a loaded condition. A trailer with 7500LBS would tell us all alot. Make a full quarter mile pass and record highest EGT.


The second issue is with the 100 MPH speed. To my knowledge there is no way a person could go over the 95-97 MPH range with only the addition of a BANKS SIX GUN. Unless going down a steep grade. Another device would have to be incorparated.


I personally run a BANKS MONSTER EXAUST and it's quality and fit is excellent. I am sure the six-gun is just as well designed.


The advertising is obviously the area of contention here. To the untrained eye BANKS ads would be very misleading indeed.


BTW the earlier cartoons made me laugh. I kept thinking of that cartoon posted at the PLACE around Christmas, of the dog helping the other dog out of the trap. It all depends on your perspective. In regards to BANKS advertising I tend to think of the helping dog pushing forward rather than pulling backwards.



Edited by: Bronco
 
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