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Does Juicing affect injector reliability?

  • Not at all.

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  • I don’t know.

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  • A minimal amount (<10% less life)

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  • A large amount (<50% less life)

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  • A great deal (<70% less life)

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Discussion Starter #1
Well, I figure I'll get blasted if I say that I think all the aftermarket programmers are responsible at least, in part, to many of the injector failures; So, I thought I'd just ask the question and see what everyone else thinks...

I am wondering how many of the injector failures are "self-inflicted wounds". ???

jeff

Edited by: dmax lover
 

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Well if you mean does it make them last longer I don't know because mine died at 75000miles and I got no juice except for a sip a couple of months ago.


Maybe I should install the juice and see if the new injectors installed will last longer than the first 75000.





I LOVE STOCK TOO!
 

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So what's your theory based on? Those injectors are supposed to last 200,000 miles. I can see that if you said that they'd last 30% less because we're running 30% more fuel thru them but that's not what's happening. Fuel line pressure would do it but most programmers don't increase line pressure. Back to the filtration.....those damn 7 micron shot gun blasts at 20,000 psi.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Sorry gradyghost...

I would guess that changing the amount of fuel to the injectors will also effect cooling and lubrication that they receive. (fuel returned is also overheated and can lower filter life??).

I am more suspicous of fuel quality; Specifically the lubricity and, per GMs recommendations, I am running Stanadyne lubricity additive to increase life of fuel system components. Has anyone run this religiously and have injector failure at a young age????

thanks,
jeff
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Sorry topgas. Didn't see your post as we posted at the same time...

Higher pressures = higher temperatures -> that's why we have lava...

A few potential reasons for lower life with "juice" that I can think of off the top of my head but have no idea as to their validity...

1. Injectors are dealing with higher cylinder pressures.
2. Injectors are insufficiently cooled, overheat? (and lose temper?)
3. Injectors receive less lubrication "per cycle" and need more "per cycle"?
4. Due to improper cooling of injector - diesel that is returned is overheated and lower filter life results. (got this one from a chevron tech paper).

By the way, according to Chevron, only inorganic particles damage fuel injectors. Are the numbers quoted here constantly for inorganic or organic particles or both? (sounds like both to me - anyone know?).

By the way, I am adding the new racor filtration kit (pre-oem) as soon as it is blessed by GM.


jeff

Edited by: dmax lover
 

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With out self incrimination it would be nice if the people with injector problems could specifiy what mods if any they had. One type of upgrade changes duty cycle time. The other changes pressure.(Duramaxer,Speed loader).
 

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I am willing to accept the possibility that Juicing will cause slightly higher probability of injector failure. For those of us who run in lower levels and drive conservitively I wouldn't expect that difference to be much.


Conversly having something like Attitude can aid you in reducing other wear factors perhaps to lower than stock. Maybe someone could actually make an arguement for longevity benefits of running Juiced. Perhaps even as it pertains to the injectors. Not likely though, I will concede. --SS
 

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I would say unequivocally, without any hesitation whatsoever:


NO!


The Juice does nothing which would effect injector life. An injector is merely a solenoid which allows the fuel from the HIGH PRESSURE RAIL to squirt through it for a specific amount of time. The solenoid does not care if it is open for 18% duty cycle, or 29% or 62% or whatever. Since there are 8 cylinders and it is a 4 stroke, I can't imagine that the duty cycle ever exceeds 10% or 12%. The Juice might widen pulse width by 5 or 10% or advance the timing, but that would have no effect on a solenoid. Fuel pressure is not raised.


I did have an injector fail, and I have run the Juice and propane. According to the Service Mgr, he and the tech looked at the symptoms, read the data from the Tech II (which wasn't as easy to pinpoint the problem as it first seems) and finally did a compression check. The final verdict: an injector stuck open and dumped a ton of fuel into one cylinder, producing a lot of smoke and torching a hole through the piston.


A representative from GM or Dmax showed up and then tried to deny the warr. claim, pointing to my tires (33") and proclaiming that the added drivetrain stress of the oversized tires burned up the engine while towing. The SM pointed out that 12,000lbs is nowhere near towing cap., 33" tires are only 8% larger than stock and the final touch: THE OTHER 7 CYLINDERS WERE GOOD AS NEW!


This is my point: if propane and/or the Juice had any negative effect on the engine, ALL 8 cylinders would have shown the same damage. The Juice controls all 8 injectors equally, propane flows into all cylinders equally. The other 7 cylinders looked perfect (I got to see and photograph one bank of 4, including the burned piston.)


There are some inherent design flaws with this fuel system. Sure the injector pulse width is narrow and gives a lot of room for tuners to make tons more power, it is an extremely precise system. But fuel and abrasives at these pressures are much tougher on injectors than any previous type of injection system and I really think Bosch screwed up on the 2001 injectors (mine was built 10/01). With only 25,000 mi on it, that one injector shouldn't have failed. They should all last 200,000 mi, or I feel they are defective (or at least poorly designed.) Even if 10% or 15% fail, that indicates a design flaw or process flaw. Perhaps the fuel rail is corroding after the fuel filter, perhaps the injectors weren't hard enough, perhaps the factory fuel filter is just not good enough for the dirty fuel we get... the bottom line is it should not be our problem to sort out, but corporate greed makes it our problem.


R, Steve
 

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"Perhaps the fuel rail is corroding after the fuel filter"

I like using emulsifying additive for this reason.
 

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Be nice to know the exact cause of injector failures. You figure they have boxes of them getting remanufactured. What does the remanufacturer need to do to bring them back to spec?
 

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I have used stanadyne from day one and will continue to use it, unless I like the total power Dmaxallitech sold me better, but it did not stop injector failure. One is craked and one is stuck.
Scott
 

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This is way out of my league, but couldn't the injectors be made out of a harder material like carbide, or something? Also, with such a failure rate as the injectors are having, shouldn't they be getting cheaper or maybe more manufacturors than just Bosch ?
 

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Lets aproach this scientifically. Somebody needs to open a topic,poll or forum specifically asking what engine/fuel problems and what your milage was and what your mods were and finally what you were doing when this happened. We could all learn alot about the durabillaty of the Dmax. In regard to tuning issuses just effecting one cylinder or all clyinders at the same time. One very specific engine componet is going to show weakness first. Everything else is just a chain reaction. Just because all 8 pistons are not melted does not mean your motor is not lean. Lets all work together to compile more data. Are you afraid what the facts might show? You can't stop reallity from happening.Edited by: Bronco
 

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There's more than one injector failure mode that's been identified. The injector pitting problem is directly proportional to the amount of fuel driven through the injectors. So the more fuel used, as is the case with Juice/etc, the more pitting. This reduces control of fuel application. Just for my sanity, till I install a secondary filter, I disconnected my Juice some time ago. Maybe I'm just a tad more anal though.
 

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Ray403Dmax, I don't think there's even a statistically valid increase in fuel volume run through the injectors. The Juice gains more from the timing changes than from actual volume. If there were any appreciable increase in volume there would be a significant increase in fuel consumption and decrease in mileage. We're talking about fractions of cubic millimeters of volume at milliseconds of timing changes! Step back and think about it for a second or two.
 

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Tom,


If that was true there wouldn't be excess fuel blasted out the exhaust as black smoke. And, I know my regular Juice has darkened the sky behind my truck.



Also, other fuel boxes solutions, such as the Duramaximizer, increase fuel rail pressure to increase fuel flow for more HP. I'm certain they do not alter timing. I've never been fond of these solutions and only provide these as a counter example.


My rule of thumb is reversed logic with yours. For me, timing is a fine tune for optimizing the combustion process, and more fuel is what really increases HP. To a degree, you can add fuel without altering timing, but the pros do both.


Also, it doesn't matter what the baseline (OEM) fueling levels are so much as the % increase in the change. As an example... if the baseline was a miniscule 1/8 of a cubic mm and the delta increase was an even more miniscule 1/32 of a cubic mm, the change is a 25% increase.


One other thing. IIRC, fuel delivery has everything to do with deterministic things like throttle control and turbo boost and little with statistics.
 

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Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree a bit.
I believe that timing is more important than just optimizing combustion in the diesel. Overfueling produces black smoke, so fueling is important for optimizing combustion and timing adjusts the power production for the fuel provided. If belching black smoke and darkening the skies was more than a few extra ounces of burnt fuel you should be losing 4 or 5 miles per gallon. I very rarely ever see any smoke from my truck running Juice at level 4. My fuel mileage is as good or better than unjuiced so I am burning a net amount of "extra" fuel that is negligible or even LESS than stock. I'm actually reducing injector "fuel wear!"
(Your results may vary. No warranties expressed or implied.)
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Idle_Chatter said:
My fuel mileage is as good or better than unjuiced so I am burning a net amount of "extra" fuel that is negligible or even LESS than stock. I'm actually reducing injector "fuel wear!"
(Your results may vary. No warranties expressed or implied.)
More HP and less fuel consumption? Aren't you reducing amount of fuel to cool and lubricate injectors along the way? Do you really think that you are increasing the life of your fuel system components?


Related to the comment about carbide injectors - can you use cryogenic hardening on the existing injectors? There are companies in Southern California that do it.




jeff

Edited by: dmax lover
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Texas Red Wagon said:
I have used stanadyne from day one and will continue to use it, unless I like the total power Dmaxallitech sold me better, but it did not stop injector failure. One is craked and one is stuck.
Scott

I notice from your signature that you have modified your motor quite a bit. Just to make me "feel better" - I was hoping to see someone with stock setup who has used stanadyne lubricity additive and hasn't had any injector failure...


jeff
 

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Well, Jeff, If I am burning less fuel at the same engine rpms, then I am flowing more cooling and bypass fuel flow so the answer is YES!



I repeat myself, step back and think about it for a second.
Edited by: Idle_Chatter
 
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