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I opened up the forum for the first time in a while, and I see quite a few postings on injectors, and replacing them.

That got me to thinking...

Is there data somewhere on people with injector replacements and wheter or not they were using an additive, and if they were, what additive they were using? That would be some great information to have.

I have been using FPPF Fuel Power, but I ran out the last two tank fulls. Since I've quit using it, my engine has been running quieter, and seems to be a little quicker. HOWEVER, I pulled my 5th wheel without the additive, and the truck seems to have less pulling power. Go figure.

CADman_ks
 

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Call me the skeptic, but I still have seen no data that would suggest additives or filtration do anything to avoid injector failure. I have read a lot of great theories from some very knowledgeable folks (make sense to me as well) about how both should extend life. It seems that the inferior injector design will not allow you to approach the the failure point that additives and secondary filtration would begin to extend. I guess what I'm trying to say is that additives and filtration might be the difference between 120K and 250K, but for many of us, we see failures long before 120K.


Remember the polls that were up a few months ago? They were pretty inconclusive, but did not seem to suggest a trend that would suggest additives or filtration extend injector life.


My hope is that we will soon begin to see some trends, though. Many of the early trucks from the board are creeping up in miles. A few trucks have operated well beyond that, but I believe that is a small minority, even within the virtual walls of the boards. Maybe in a year or two these questions can be answered with authority.


My 02 is nearing 60K and I fully expect to have to put a set of injectors in it in the next 20-40K miles. I fear that all the additives and filtration in the world will not change that reality.



Kevin
 

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I tend to agree with 2K2AD. The additives and supplemental filtration address the long term issues. But when people are seeing failures at 5k, 10k, 20k or 30k miles, there is a design problem. Given the fact that GM/Duramax_Ltd/Bosch has iterated the design of the injectors what appears to be three times and now replace ALL eight injectors upon failure of one would also suggest design issues do indeed exist.


It would be nice to know the full story here. Maybe someday.



The summary suggested by CADman_ks would be interesting. If you could get enough information from each person that had an injector failure on this forum, trends my exist. Besides additives, I would add to the list supplemental fuel filtration ( when added mileage wise) and whether any power enhancing box has been added to truck (Juice, Quad, etc).





AlanEdited by: OC_DMAX
 

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I would rather NOT use an additive, and have them fail before the 100k, so they are free, instead of paying extra for additives, and extra after the warranty is out.
 

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I have stated before how I feel about additives. I believe them to be snake oil pure and simple.


Now the added filtration has to help, cleaner fuel is better.


One thing I would like to know is; How much of the so called good stuff in any of these additives are trapped by the filter? Does any of them use teffons or other lubricants? If so, at what micron?


I know that my truck could kill over today as I go away for the weekend pulling our trailer. But with that said, Too date I have never used an additive and have nearly always had some type of power enhancer. And now at just under 59,000 miles I have never had any engine problems. (One turbo that was because of abuse, but no engine)


I do run an Racor 2 micron after factory and have for the past 21,000+ miles.
 

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Tube Tool Man said:
Probably the most prudent thing to do is to sell it before it gets to 100K.

Why?


I think the best thing to do is run it as you want to. If the truck does not hold up like you think it should. Buy a different brand, and do the same thing. That is the only way GM, Ford, Dodge, or any other manufacturer will make things better, is if we demand better. Not by buying a new one from the same manufacturer before you really would like to just so so can stay brand loyal. I would buy a Dodge, Ford, Nissan, or any other brand that fits my needs best, and if they do not hold up like I feel they should, then I move over to the next in line.
 

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No filtration or additives used on our early 2001 model Dmax. All maintenance and filter changes done as required or sooner. Injectors had been replaced as failed (three different occasions) up until last fall when all 8 were replaced at around 200K on the odo. The techs didn't know what they were doing/diagnosing and started throwing parts at it (fuel pump, return line pressure sensor, NSBU switches on the Allison and so on), and mailing HUGE repair bills to us, until we took it to another dealer who replaced all 8 injectors and she started purring like a kitten again. I hope they used the latest "new and improved" injectors this last time. It's up around 260K on the clock now.
 

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OC_DMAX said:
I tend to agree with 2K2AD. The additives and supplemental filtration address the long term issues. But when people are seeing failures at 5k, 10k, 20k or 30k miles, there is a design problem. Given the fact that GM/Duramax_Ltd/Bosch has iterated the design of the injectors what appears to be three times and now replace ALL eight injectors upon failure of one would also suggest design issues do indeed exist.


It would be nice to know the full story here. Maybe someday.
...






Alan
It is a design problem in that the system should run on available fuel - but unfortunately, it won't, look here

Major point of this presentation is that 80% of fuel in U.S. is "unfit for purpose" and that fuel needs to meet euro lubricity standard of 460 micron wear scar diameter on high frequency reciprocating rig test (abbreviated 460 u wsd hfrr). This is needed in order to provide adequate protection to new high pressure fuel injection (hfie) systems.


I think that the injectors failing at an earlier mileage is explained by bad fuel (low lubricity); The use of aftermarket programmers (juice, etc.) probably contributes to the failures.

My logic is as follows...

1. During break-in the lubricity needed is particularly critical. More friction and resulting heat turn diesel to tar that can plug injectors and crack them as they go "china syndrome" on ya. Proper lubricity will make for cooler running injectors and avoid damage during infancy. (For those of you who recall campfire rick's description of his injector that failed - he described "black tar" on the injector tip.)

2. Programmer boxes change duty cycle of injectors, altering the amount of fuel (and lubrication) that they receive per injection cycle. The engine normally produces less power and consumes more fuel during break-in - using an aftermarket programmer bypasses the break-in behavior.

3. My gut tells me that there are more injector failures occurring in or right after the winter months by those who live in colder climates; Blended fuel (#1 and #2) typically is even worse in terms of lubricity, unless additized to compensate. What scares me on this topic is that the oil industry is blocking the adoption of a u.s. lubricity standard because they say a high percentage of refiners don't have hardware in place to add lubricity additives... In other words, you think that they all additize when they need to - but in fact, some don't even have the capability to do so.

On the issues of polls, the polls are useless asking one question at a time with no ability to slice and dice the data to look for patterns. A complete survey is needed - I would want to know the following...

- mileage on truck at failure(s)
- build date of truck
- Is truck used for heavy towing
- If yes to the above what percentage of time do you tow?
- programmer used that alters power?
- if yes to the above, which brand and model
- Additives used?
- If yes to the above which brand and product?
- Do you live in a region where you use blended fuel in the winter?
- Aftermarket fuel filtration used?
- If yes to the above, which one?
- How would you characterize your driving of the truck..
a. "I drive it like I stole it".
b. "I baby it cuz I want it to last 250k miles"
c. "I use it for work and tow 15k pounds all day long..."



jeff
Edited by: dmax lover
 

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Having read the above posts concerning lubricity, what would the best recommended additive be for lubricity?
 

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TTLS said:
No filtration or additives used on our early 2001 model Dmax. All maintenance and filter changes done as required or sooner. Injectors had been replaced as failed (three different occasions) up until last fall when all 8 were replaced at around 200K on the odo. The techs didn't know what they were doing/diagnosing and started throwing parts at it (fuel pump, return line pressure sensor, NSBU switches on the Allison and so on), and mailing HUGE repair bills to us, until we took it to another dealer who replaced all 8 injectors and she started purring like a kitten again. I hope they used the latest "new and improved" injectors this last time. It's up around 260K on the clock now.
How much $$ has the engine cost you so far out of pocket for repairs?
 

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Looks like the Bosch briefing slides, linked in Dmax Lover's post really explain a lot of the failures. That sole-source document shows meaningful test data based on lab tests and field problems investigation. The date of the briefing is February 2003 and with over a year since then combined with Bosch's committment to work with the DF producer, I wonder if diesel fuel in the United States has improved. My gut feeling is no. Simply because the time period is too short and in some areas the cost of diesel fuel is still well below the cost of regular gasoline. This next part is tricky. We all know the current cost of diesel fuel in our area and some have it way bad. However, with improved diesel fuel comes higher pump prices. With the improvements in lubricity comes justifiable higher prices (better product). One reason we bought diesel engines is long-lasting engines. So, if we had high-quality fuel and way fewer injection problems ..... you fill in the rest. Gas engines would be on the endangered species listing.



Marc
 

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I use stanadyne lubricity formula and blend in stanadyne performance formula for a little cetane boost (it doesn't "need" it, but I bought the engine for the silky smoothness of it and this makes it a tad smoother).

Alternatively, I have run biodiesel. Just 2% biodiesel in the diesel (referred to as B2) will dramatically improve lubricity. I have run b20 with no issues and it makes me feel better that I am buying 20% less dino oil from the saudi's too and sending money towards an american farmer instead...

The only additives that I have seen with published lubricity results that meet Boschs specs (450-ish wsd hfrr) are

- Shell Rotella DFA
- Stanadyne Performance Formula & also their Lubricity formula
- specs listed for performance formula, but lubricity formula has even better lubricity performance (more concentrated)...

I sometimes think of the Bosch presentation as my 200k mile injector warranty. It shows that the injectors will experience unacceptable wear on available U.S. fuel (without an additive) ; I would be having a little discussion with the GM area rep with that presentation in hand if I ever have an injector problem - but frankly, I don't think I will - I am double dosing the additive or running biodiesel - so my diesel would probably have 200 micron wsd on hfrr test.

With the situation as it is, GM should be buying us all lubricity additive until the U.S. diesel lubricity issue is resolved; But, I am sure some bean counter has figured it is cheaper to buy injectors for a few trucks versus buying additive for alot of trucks. And then when the truck hits 100k miles it's our problem...



- jeff

Edited by: dmax lover
 

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I wonder if the failures may not also be related to installation. Maybe an improper torque being applied etc. We see people with replacements have almost immediate failures. I wonder if something like this isn't happening on the assembly line and thats the reason some fail and some don't.
 

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I suspect that sealing the copper gasket of the injector is not that difficult (experts chime in here) and if there were torquing issues our Duramax line would end up like the new 6.0l Ford diesels - filling crankcases with diesel fuel and causing buy-backs and recalls. Fast moving parts creating friction need lubing - all the time.


The bean counter theory is creditable. Anyone who has taken a statistics class most likely has done a problem determining acceptable failure rate repairs. So, warranties are written to cover the majority of buyers without ever having to actually do some warranty work. Beyond that we have the, say, 10 percenters - those that actually need repair. This keeps covered repairs at an acceptable level and profits up. Hence the dealers not handing out the DFA.


MarcEdited by: motocopter
 

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hoot How much $$ has the engine cost you so far out of pocket for repairs?[/QUOTE said:
Don't have an exact figure but I can nail it down to around $7500 in 250,000 miles. That also includes the time the turbo went "bang" when it ran dry of oil. That was just shy of 100k.
 

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Amric said:
Pick said:
Having read the above posts concerning lubricity, what would the best recommended additive be for lubricity?

JMO - Stanadyne Lubricity Formula

Ditto here,, This stuff lubes like crazy, has real sticking power spilled some in the truck bed,, almost impossible to get it off,,


Truck runs Better,,,,,
 

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Who sells the Stanadyne?
 

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Lubricity to me is what stood out in the Bosch presentation. It was also what stood to me when I read about early failures of northern trucks(fuel blended with d#1).


The key that I saw in a Catepillar report was that Biodiesel increased lubricity--and since it is fuel--the blending of it with D#2 was an easiy choice. You are not buying an additive--you are buying a highly lubricating fuel.


In that report it noted that to make in improvement in lubricity--Ca fuel had to be blended with 20% bio. The national fuel saw improvements with 5% bio. Ca=300ppm sulfur National=500ppm sulfur.


The new fuel--which is in Ca already=15ppm or so sulfur. Almost a 10 to 1 reduction.


Now what are the oil companies putting in the fuel to compensate--especially for our fuel systems?


That is why I use B20. On top of supporting our farmers and doing my part to help in not using Saudi oil--I believe we almost need to use something--especially with the new 2006 fuel.


I can only extrapolate and say--whatever you used before--for D#2 with 500ppm sulfur--you better use a lot more--when the fuel @15ppm sulfur comes to your town.
 
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