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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
With all the info on this site and the other site regarding fuel additives especially FPPF, Stanadyne, Primrose, Howes and Power Service the decision as to wich one to use has been difficult. We have salesmen of FPPF, Stanadyne and Primrose posting about the benefits of their products as well as one of those salesmen bashing another well known additive company product.

I wrote to Power Service for information regarding their Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement products. These products have been bashed by one particular vendor that frequents this site, whether he is correct or not we don't know for sure.

My email to Power Service:

How does Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement take care of water in diesel fuel? Are they emulsifiers or demulsifiers?

Will the use of Diesel Kleen or Diesel Fuel Supplement void my General Motors warranty on my Duramax diesel engine?

Thank you,

Reply to my email received this morning with the permission of Mr. Wilson:


Diesel Fuel Supplement and Diesel Kleen are neither a demulsifier or an emulsifier, however they contain solubilizers. Our Diesel Fuel Supplement (DFS) contains a deicer that is intended to keep the water in the fuel from falling out and to help reduce the likelihood of Fuel Filter Icing. Warm fuel will carry more water than cold fuel. When it gets cold some water can fall out of the fuel, or the water separator can squeeze out this water which can freeze on the filter face and cause the fuel to stop flowing through the filter even though the fuel is still liquid. This is Fuel Filter Icing and is often mistaken for fuel gelling. The deicer in DFS can also help to solubilize small amounts of water in the fuel system. If too much water is in the fuel tank it can overpower the deicer in the Diesel Fuel Supplement. Diesel Kleen is a


non-winter additive and it is intended to give you the very best injector cleaner, cetane, lubricity, fuel stability package and corrosion protection. It will not do much for water and it is not intended to. The injector cleaner is strong enough to clean up a dirty injector to the spray pattern of a new injector. The Cetane Boost will help your engine start quicker, reduce emissions and improve engine performance. The lubricity package will bring the lubricity of the fuel up to the standard recommended by the fuel pump manufacturers. It meets the N14 Standard for corrosion and it will stabilize the fuel. Diesel Kleen does not contain a demulsifier or an emulsifier. I would recommend using Diesel Kleen in the non-winter months because it has more injector cleaner and cetane boost than the Diesel Fuel Supplement. It will help with a water problem and will also solubilize small amounts of water. It is not a quick fix for a lot of free water.



Our Diesel 911 is a water solubilizer. It will take free water and combine it with the fuel so when you look at the fuel it is clear. Diesel 911 will combine with the fuel first and it will also keep the water in the fuel from falling out. It then will act upon the free water in the system. If the fuel is dry and is not saturated with water, it will pick up more free water than when the fuel is wet. A fuel solubilizer will not suspend water in the fuel as water droplets. Diesel 911 also contains a lubricity package to help increase the fuels lubricity since water can adversely affect lubricity. It is not a quick fix but it will solubilize a lot more water than DFS or Diesel Kleen.

There is a lot of misinformation about additives and water dispersants. When you use an additive like our Diesel Fuel Supplement or Diesel Kleen these are mixtures of additives in a package. These various chemicals have to be balanced so they will not separate in the container. It doesn't matter if you use our additives or one of our competitors, a good water dispersant takes a lot of room in the additive package. If you add a strong detergent, strong cetane, excellent lubricity, corrosion, top of the line antigel, and stability to the additive package there is not much room left for a water dispersant. A good multiple benefit package will always have a weak water dispersant package. It is a matter of chemistry. The only way to get a strong water dispersant is to get an additive whose top attribute is to control water like our Diesel 911.


Our additives, when used as directed, will not void an engine warranty, however I will tell you that the engine manufacturers, including GM, do not want you to use a solid water dispersant on a regular bases. Diesel Fuel Supplement and Diesel Kleen are made to be used with every fill up and will not void any engine warranty when used as directed. They will also take care of normal condensation and free water. A water dispersant like Diesel 911 or any other market water dispersant is recommended by the engine manufacturers only when you have a water problem. Most of our competitors have a much harsher water dispersant product than we do. We add Cetane Boost and lubricity to our Diesel 911 so it will not be harsh on the fuel pumps and injectors. Also, please be careful when using any water dispersant and do not exceed the recommended treat rate. They can help control water however they also have their limitations.

Hopefully this will help you to understand how our additives work.






Best regards,

Brian Wilson
Technical Advisor
Compliance Coordinator
(800)643-9089
[email protected]

Power Service Products, Inc.


I then sent a follow up question to Mr. Wilson:

One more question, do both Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement fight rust and corrosion well?

Mr. Wilson's reply:


Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement do help with corrosion in the fuel system and will work very well in a vehicle. In a static tank, one that is stationary and is meant to store fuel that is located in a permanent location, other factors come into play. For example, in a 10,000 gallon storage tank condensation and free water can be a problem. The vast majority of these tanks are not set up properly and 100 percent water removal is almost impossible. Most of these tanks will have about 1 inch of water on the bottom of the tank and some a lot more. The fuel when treated with a good additive like ours will have corrosion protection however the metal in the water phase of the tank will not and rust and corrosion will occur. Our additives treat the fuel and improve the fuel. So your answer really depends on what kind of storage system you have. In your case and in the case of most vehicle operators when you use our products you will have very good corrosion protection since you will not have a constant water level in your tank. This is also just one of many reasons to take fuel samples off the bottom of storage tanks and check for free water. Also, it is highly advised to pump off the free water and keep your use of a water dispersant to a minimum.













What I do know for sure is the following:

FPPF and Primrose are emulsifiers. No alcohols, says so on their website.

Stanadyne and Racor are demulsifiers. No Alcohols, says so in their literature and website.

Power Service Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement are neither, they solubilze water from normal condensation and normal free water. No Alcohols, says so on the bottle.

GM does not recommend additives but if one is used, use a emulsifier such as Stanadyne or Racor.



This information from Mr. Wilson, and postings from Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Morrison and the multitude of other individuals on this and the other website has helped me to make up my mind.

1. GM says do not use additives but to use an emulsifier like Stanadyne if one is to be used.

2. Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement from Power Service are neither a demulsifier or emulsifier but will handle normal condensation and normal free water.

3. FPPF and Primrose are emulsifiers, GM states specifically not to use them.

4. Power Service states their products will not void the engine manufacturers warranty, FPPF and Primrose do not make that claim.

The decision for me comes down to Stanadyne Performance Formula or Power Service Diesel Kleen for warm months and Power Service Diesel Fuel Supplement for winter months.

My GM warranty is very important to me. Since Stanadyne is mentioned by GM and is a demulsifier I have considered using it but I don't like the idea of water "falling out" and settling anywhere in the fuel system. Power Service solubilizes normal condensation and normal free water in diesel fuel. Coping with water is not the main goal of Power Service Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement, however, like I mentioned and Mr. Wilson states, it will cope with normal condensation and normal free water. I purchace diesel fuel from a very high volume, reputable dealer. I doubt that I will have to deal with a severe water in fuel problem. If I where to have a serious water problem a product like Diesel 911 or similar would be appropriate, as Mr. Wilson describes in his reply.

Power Service surely did not need to reply to my email, they sell more diesel additive products than anyone else to some of the largest fleets and distributors in the country as I have found out. They don't need my business.

After careful and way to much consideration I am going to use Power Service Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement. I will check the fuel filter when I change it out to see how it looks.
 

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Ive been using Power Service products in my truck for four years (68,000 miles), and in tractors and power equipment for much longer. I've had no fuel related issues in that time frame. No gelling, filter icing, water, algae, nothing. As far as I can see, they make products that work well.
 

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Thanks for the information.
 

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I've been using Power Service, and after all the slamming, I was starting to wonder. I didn't stop using it, but I was thinking of what I should do when I run out. That makes me feel alot better. Thank you for your research. I may try Standyne in the future, just for a change of pace, but I won't have any problems buying Power Service again.
 

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I have been using Power Service since fillup #2 (Dealer filled it the first time) and have seen no ill effects. Heck, I got home one time from offshore after the wife used my truck and wondered why my truck was so loud. She didn't put the PS in when she filled it up before bringing it back to the dock and it was noticeable. Since then every tank it is added. Not to be praising a product but it will be added in every tankful with peace of mind after reading this information. Thanks scottdiesel.
 

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It seems to be a given that desulfurized diesel can benefit from an anticorrosion and lubrocity package. What interests me is the water issue.

The term “solubilizer”, seeming used very little outside of marketing and perhaps medicine, encompasses three types of chemicals: surfactants, co-solvents, and complexation agents. What is relevant for our purposes here is that all three are generally used for suspending a compound within another in which it will usually not mix, e.g., diesel and water. The word emulsifier carries the same general meaning and is synonymous with “solubilizer” it would seem to me.

GM Bulletin 03-06-04-017 states that a demulsifier is recommended if any additive is to be used at all. An emulsifier (solubilizer) is used to hold the water in suspension in the fuel while a demulsifier acts to do the opposite, thereby causing the heavier water droplets to sink to the filter bottom for removal as designed. It would seem that GM prefers suspended water not going through the injector pump and injectors regardless of how finely it’s suspended. Water is never in complete solution with diesel oil but comes close with the co-solvent alcohol. Alcohol is highly abrasive as well as bringing other problems to bear. But what about the emulsifiers (solubilizers) used in some of the additives? Can they buffer the abrasive quality of water to the extent of being able to safely pass it through the injectors? Is any amount of water going through the pump and injectors, no matter how finely divided, an innocuous event at 20K psi? What about oxidation from the water? On the other hand I wonder just how effective the demulsifiers are at removing water.

After 20K miles on my Duramax without additives I’m thinking of picking some up. I think I’ll begin with Stanadyne Performance, a demulsifier, just to hopefully assuage some of the above nagging questions…at least until I figure I know more than the GM engineers. I’ll bet this stuff is real expensive.…geez, can’t believe I paid $45K for a pick up….and the cost of diesel now really sucks….
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
suluable is not emulsion as far as I can tell

It seems to be a given that desulfurized diesel can benefit from an anticorrosion and lubrocity package. What interests me is the water issue.

The term “solubilizer”, seeming used very little outside of marketing and perhaps medicine, encompasses three types of chemicals: surfactants, co-solvents, and complexation agents. What is relevant for our purposes here is that all three are generally used for suspending a compound within another in which it will usually not mix, e.g., diesel and water. The word emulsifier carries the same general meaning and is synonymous with “solubilizer” it would seem to me.

GM Bulletin 03-06-04-017 states that a demulsifier is recommended if any additive is to be used at all. An emulsifier (solubilizer) is used to hold the water in suspension in the fuel while a demulsifier acts to do the opposite, thereby causing the heavier water droplets to sink to the filter bottom for removal as designed. It would seem that GM prefers suspended water not going through the injector pump and injectors regardless of how finely it’s suspended. Water is never in complete solution with diesel oil but comes close with the co-solvent alcohol. Alcohol is highly abrasive as well as bringing other problems to bear. But what about the emulsifiers (solubilizers) used in some of the additives? Can they buffer the abrasive quality of water to the extent of being able to safely pass it through the injectors? Is any amount of water going through the pump and injectors, no matter how finely divided, an innocuous event at 20K psi? What about oxidation from the water? On the other hand I wonder just how effective the demulsifiers are at removing water.

After 20K miles on my Duramax without additives I’m thinking of picking some up. I think I’ll begin with Stanadyne Performance, a demulsifier, just to hopefully assuage some of the above nagging questions…at least until I figure I know more than the GM engineers. I’ll bet this stuff is real expensive.…geez, can’t believe I paid $45K for a pick up….and the cost of diesel now really sucks….

I looked up the difference between Soluable and Emulsion...

Soluable-capable of being dissolved, especially easily dissolved-American Heritage Dictionary

Emulsion-suspension of small globules of one liquid in a second liquid with which the first will not mix-American Heritage Dictionary

To me, soluable is not emulsion and is not demulsion. Soluable means dissolving, emulsion surrounds but does not drop out as in demulsification which surrounds and drops out.

I'm not a chemist or a literary expert but the definitions do not seem to be synonymous to me. I'm not trying to be a smarta**, I'm just reading the dictionary.

FPPF and Primrose are emulsifiers. Stanadyne and Racor are demulsifiers and Power Service Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement are neither, they are solubilizers. I think the three are clearly different.
 

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I have been using it since fillup #2 also (dealer did first fillup) and have had no problems. I only have 2500 miles on the engine and will cut open the fuel filter when changed. I will continue to use PS, and thanks very much for posting the email.:)
 

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In “Astrazenica Pharmaceuticals vs Mutual Pharmiceuticals”, Federal Court of Appeals, 09-30-04, the term “solubilizer” (not found in most chemical dictionaries and lacking scientific specificity) was vigorously contested. In that case it was held that: “The parties agree that as a general matter, artisans would understand the term “solubilizer” to embrace three distinct types of chemicals: (1) surface active agents (also known as “surfactants”), (2) co-solvents, and (3) complexation agents.”, yet found: “Because we hold that the term “solubilizer” is limited to surfactants, we affirm the district court’s judgment in favor of Astrazeneca on invalidity.” Most emulsifiers are surfactants. At best, the term “solubilizer” is quite vague. In a strict sense, there are compounds that both water and diesel will dissolve in, e.g. alcohol, a co-solvent, but the water is never dissolved in diesel directly. The water and diesel are bound to a third compound. The resulting solution can range from thick emulsions (relatively large globules of water in suspension) to clear solutions where the water is very finely divided.

My aim was not to debate the semantics but point out that, as I understand it, GM doesn’t recommend suspending the water in the fuel, finely divided or not, but instead settling it out in the filter trap. It’s only anecdotal but, it seems that a large number of people have used emulsifiers (solubilizers or what-have-you) for extended periods of time with no apparent ill effects. On the other hand, many truck drivers operate there rigs for hundreds of thousands of miles without additives (excluding anti-gel agents in winter) with no apparent ill effects. My question remains the same… “But what about the emulsifiers (solubilizers) used in some of the additives? Can they buffer the abrasive quality of water to the extent of being able to safely pass it through the injectors? Is any amount of water going through the pump and injectors, no matter how finely divided, an innocuous event at 20K psi?” What about the oxidation problems. This wasn’t stated as a rhetorical question. Anyone have any data?

I’ve asked Stanadyne to comment on a technical level instead of the usual marketing BS; haven’t heard back yet but will post when I do. Stanadyne, a large company, makes fuel injectors and could probably have come up with a good “solubilizer” but, chose to go with a demulsifier. GM could have recommended an emulsifier/solubilizer or whatever and went with a demulsifer as well. It will be interesting hearing from both GM and Stanadyne as to why. Just an enquiring mind that wonders about the discrepancy.

Edit: Just got a response from Stanadyne -

Dear Charles,

THANK YOU for your inquiry! This is a very popular question, and I think most of it comes from the diesel forum you refer to.

As you may well know, water is the #1 killer of diesel fuel pumps and injectors. Water is still water whether it is emulsified or not. If you use a product with an emulsifying agent the water molecules break down slightly and bond to the fuel molecules, then travel through the fuel injection system. When it reaches the injector nozzles it turns into steam and in time blows out the injector tips. Products with a demulsifier work to break up and drop the water molecules out of the fuel suspension at the point of the water separator so that it collects in the water bowl and does not travel through the FIE components. Any diesel mechanic who has taken apart an injector pump can tell who uses a demulsifier and who doesn’t, and he could also show you the inside of an injector pump that is completely rusted due to water in the fuel.

The term “solubilizer” is new to me, but sounds like a typical advertising wiggle word that doesn’t mean much when you get right down to it. I tend to agree with all of your assumptions on that one.

Bottom line is that if you are using an additive product and want to maintain your FIE components in good condition and maximize their performance, you should choose a product that contains a demulsifier and drain your water bowl as necessary.

If you have any additional questions, please feel free to reply or call the Customer Support line below.
Best Regards,
Laura L. Boggs
Customer Support Specialist
Stanadyne Corporation, Fluid Mgmt Technologies
860.525.0821 ext 5325
Customer Support: 800.842.2496
Fax: 860.683.4587
[email protected]

 

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By the way...I believe only GM can tell you if something will void their warranty, or a court contest that examines the warranty.
 

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Very good discussion....but I have one question...If one adds a demulsifier...does it immediately act upon the fuel or could there be some delay.

The real question is...what if the water falls out within the fuel rail itself after adding the demulsifier?

Also...if one uses it...then you better drain your filter on a regular basis...because in a moving truck you could bring in a slug of water.


It almost sounds like there is no complete answer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
by the way...

By the way...I believe only GM can tell you if something will void their warranty, or a court contest that examines the warranty.
Interesting, the term demulsifier was new to me as the term solubilzer is new to the custermer service rep at Stanadyne. The term demulsifier could just as easily be a "marketing" term. Another one of those "advertising wiggle words" it appears.

When I looked up solubilizer it appears to be a real word with a real meaning in a real dictionary, the 2002 Merriam Webster. Now when I look up demulsifier in the same dictionary, it's not there. It could be that it is a marketing department derivative of the word demulsify. Please don't try and tell me that the term solubilizer is some kind of marketing term, it's not.

Oh, by the way, I realize it's ultimately up to GM regarding what will and what will not void their warranty. At least Power Service states in black and white on the container that their product will not void the engine manufacturers. So if there was a problem and GM pointed to Power Service additives as the problem I have somewhere to go. I don't see FPPF, Stanadyne, Primrose or Howes making the same claim regarding warranties on their packaging.

The demulsifiers, emulsifiers and solubilzers are three distinctly different products that handle water in different ways based on what I have found out in my research. I feel pretty good about about my decision. Power Service is used by for more truckers, fleets and sold by more distributors and retailers than any other product. They clearly state that they back their products, FPPF and Stanadyne don't. Amsoil may back their additive product as well, like they do their oil but I'm not for sure on that.

I can buy Power Service at any truck stop, Tractor Supply or Wal-Mart you can't buy FPPF, Stanadyne or Racor nearly as easily. If FPPF or Stanadyne where truly a better product the market would demand those products and those products would be just as available at a competitive price as Power Service. If FPPF and Stanadyne did a better job at a competitive price truckers, fleet operators and retailers would demand the product. If the demand is there I'm sure FPPF or Stanadyne would ramp up production to meet market demand and take those profits.

From your first post in this thread you have attempted to equate soluable to emulsify. They are clearly different terms. Solubilizer is a real word not a "advertising wiggle word".

I really don't care what additive you use or anyone else uses. It just raises red flags when one vendor and frequent poster on this site slams another product. Thats why I had to do a little research of my own. I am in sales and the one thing you never do is slam the competitors products. You are supposed to sell your product based on its own merits. I guess if you are selling a product that has very few good attributes a salesperson may have to resort to going negative on the competitors. Bashing a competitors product also smacks desperation and lack of success.

I hope none of us have problems with our trucks and the additives that we choose to use do what they claim they are supposed to do. Good luck.
 

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Good question. How fast? I would think it would depend on amount of water present and how completely dissolved the demulsifier is in the fuel. In a beaker it happens within seconds. Don’t know but I’m guessing in a few minutes or so but don’t really know. Dropping out in the rail? Like the lady said – water is water and will abrade as it turns to steam, in “solution” or not. Which way do we get the least amount over time is perhaps a question. Checking for water in the trap? During the pre-flight inspection of a gas engine plane (turbocharged and injected or normally aspirated), a small amount of fuel is drained from the bottom of each tank into a clear container and visually checked for a layer (meniscus) indicating water. Am I about to drain the trap at the bottom of my Duramax filter every time I jump in it? No way. For sure I avoid filling up if I see the tanker truck at the station as the station tank will become agitated when filled. I also try to keep the tank near full when parking for the day to lessen “breathing room” in the tank that can add more condensate over night as the temp changes. I likewise plan on draining the trap at the bottom of the filter now and then.
 

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Where are you guys buying your powerservice products. Online based?? Local store? Couldn't find any info on dealers on the powerservice website.

Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
power service

Where are you guys buying your powerservice products. Online based?? Local store? Couldn't find any info on dealers on the powerservice website.

Thanks
You can buy the Power Service Diesel Kleen and Power Service Diesel Fuel Supplement (contains anti-gelling additive) at most truck stops or Wal-Mart. The Diesel Kleen has worked well for me. I haven't tried the Diesel Fuel Supplement yet, will try this winter.
 

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Does our OEM fuel filter trap water??

Scottdiesel,

Thanks for the good research effort and the coherent discussion on this important topic.

I (and many, many other folks) have been struggling with this question since it became apparent that the OEM fuel filter is inadequate for the task assigned for it.

I have quoted one of your paragraphs below and would like to make a couple of comments on it. Sorry but I have no firm data - only a lot of anecdotal considerations.

1st : for the concept of using de-emulsifiers settling water out in the filter trap - from all the discussions I have seen over the past three years this does not seem to be happening with OUR trucks. Unless a fuel fillup is LOADED with water there is never any appreciable water drained from our OEM filters. So, if the water is truly "settled out" it must all reside in the bottom of the fuel tank, OR, after having been re-agitated while traveling, has been passed through the injector system in about the same condition as before the de-emulsifying agent was added.

2nd : I believe that the many truck operators who travel our highways have true, individual, water separators installed that in fact do what they are designed to : separate water from diesel fuel. These same trucks then pass the fuel through one or more fuel filters to separate other contaminants out. I believe we will eventually see this system used on our DMax engines as well.

I look forward to your continued input on the subject and would encourage you (and all other de-emulsifying/emulsfying interested parties) to periodically report back what you are finding when you drain the fuel filter after using the de-emulsifying/emulsifying agents - AND pics of the internal condition of your filter housings when replaced. Perhaps a "sticky thread" we could all post to would be of interest?

I am one of those who has decided to go with the emulsifier product Primrose 405 and a pre-OEM 2 micron large capacity filter. No problems noted yet after 20,000 miles - on top of 40,000 + miles racked up by the previous owner - I have no info on what he may have done or not done in this regard. You can see some fuel filter pics I posted earlier in the fuel filter pics thread on page one.

Bill.

Scottdiesel wrote:

"My aim was not to debate the semantics but point out that, as I understand it, GM doesn’t recommend suspending the water in the fuel, finely divided or not, but instead settling it out in the filter trap. It’s only anecdotal but, it seems that a large number of people have used emulsifiers (solubilizers or what-have-you) for extended periods of time with no apparent ill effects. On the other hand, many truck drivers operate there rigs for hundreds of thousands of miles without additives (excluding anti-gel agents in winter) with no apparent ill effects. My question remains the same… “But what about the emulsifiers (solubilizers) used in some of the additives? Can they buffer the abrasive quality of water to the extent of being able to safely pass it through the injectors? Is any amount of water going through the pump and injectors, no matter how finely divided, an innocuous event at 20K psi?” What about the oxidation problems. This wasn’t stated as a rhetorical question. Anyone have any data?"
 

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We've beaten the "emulsify" horse to death, it's a given that the "emulsifying" additives do not emulsify but solubilize. That being said, the most damaging and dangerous condition is *FREE* water. Free water and emulsified water (physically mixed, not molecularly bound) causes severe damage to pumps and injectors including, erosion, abrasion, pitting and corrosion. So, if you *encourage* the separation of free water by using an additive to demulsify, you are actually creating the potential for demonstrated damage to your injection system. The OEM filter is NOT a good water separator, it's even a poor particulate filter! There's no detailed evidence of the protection provided by solubilization for passing water, but there's tremendous evidence of the disasterous effects of free water! I have used a solubilizing additive for 108,000 miles. I will not use a demulsifying additive in my truck and do not recommend it to others. Your truck, do what you think is best.
 
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