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Discussion Starter #1
I originally posted something under loss of power and warranty issues. GM Corporate (not dealership) finished reviewing the event recordings regarding my loss of power problem. Although I will not meet with them until Monday, the service writer gave me a little heads up regarding their findings. I will be meeting with the service manager or the dealership, a gm factory rep, and the gm district technical manager.


According to the service writer, I am going to be told that their are computer problems and glitches and their finding is that is was caused by Hypertech and thus I need to replace my computer which will not be covered under warranty. I originally began with this problem at 31,000 miles and now my truck has 44,000 miles. I will not lay down for this, but they are going to put it in writing that it was caused by Hypertech software. I received this information to late on Friday my time, to call hypertech, and find out their position. I certainly will keep everyone posted as this may be the start of something for GM on modifications.
 

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thorco69


Sorry about your problem ... But live and learn ...


Let this be a lesson to all you that think it's OK to volunteer info and tell your GM service provider that your running a BOX regardless if their OK in the beginning, or sell the devices ....They'll STOP trouble shooting and point the finger ... Scapegoat policy ....





Mac Edited by: Mackin
 

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Mackin said:
thorco69


Sorry about your problem ... But live and learn ...


Let this be a lesson to all you that think it's OK to volunteer info and tell your GM service provider that your running a BOX regardless if their OK in the beginning, or sell the devices ....They'll STOP trouble shooting and point the finger ... Scapegoat policy ....





Mac
There was another incident, where a member on another site stated that he had his warranty voided by Ford because he was running a Ford dealer installed box, he was on vacation when he broke down in another state and the truck was towed to a Ford dealer, guess what, they seen the box and voided his warranty on the spot, when he said he bought it from a Ford dealer and they installed it, he was told to bad its not alright with them or Ford. Edited by: keystonekid
 

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GM has got ya on this one... Programmer will bite ya now that higher ups are involved.... Got one in now that GM found the box on while I was on vacation....Oops!
 

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dmaxalliTech said:
GM has got ya on this one... Programmer will bite ya now that higher ups are involved.... Got one in now that GM found the box on while I was on vacation....Oops!

Mine is stock when I bring it in, right down to the air filter box.....


Only mod is tires and gauges.





T
NYEdited by: GMC-2002-Dmax
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Whatever GM's position is, if they can't prove to me within the guidlines set down by both federal and state law, rest assured they will know that I will take them to court. If they are not to blame, then I will attempt to get Hypertech to pay for it, and if not, I will do the same to them. I appreciate everyones opinion, and even though GM is probably wrong in their position, I can guarantee all that I will never take another vehicle to the dealer with any kind of engine mods. The problems and delays caused are just too much.


Maybe unlike most people to this site, I am a professional person, who along with a partner own a company will sales of more than $60 million annualy. I was a practicing accontant at one time, and have been in complex litigation before with the likes of Cox Communications, Shell Oil, and now Exxon/Mobil. I have either won these cases or they have settled to my benefit. And please, I am not bragging, just to let people know, that if you are in the right, have patience, and either money to hire a good lawyer, or make a good contigency deal with a law firm, you can win against the big guys.


They vary rarely allow a case to the jury. In California we have a benefit, that states cases must be to trial within one year. Even complex cases get to trial within two years. My companies spends more than $400,000 annually on legal fees for various reasons.


I am sure I will be able to find other people who would be willing to join my lawsuit, especially if I put up all the money, and/or make a deal with a law firm on contigency. Believe me, I would rather not do this, just resolve my problem, but after more than a year of problems, enough is enough.


Again to all who may read this, I am not unhappy with my Duramax, it is the best riding truck, and towing truck I have ever had. Nor do the problems bother me. That's business. It is the handling of those problems, and time involved which is unacceptable. Ford did not recall their nearly 66,000 power strokes, and buy back 1500 of them without first someone filing a lawsuit against them. It is just the way it is with big businesss.


I have the rare luxury of dealing with these kind of issues, but if my experience with mods and dealerships helps to inform all about making sure your vehicle is taken into the dealer stock, then it was worth it.
 

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That is enlightening. We will want to follow your activities w/great interest of course. Its thru people like you that have the ability but more importantly the willingness to lock horns w/the big boys that benefits the whole community. Do keep us posted.





Edited by: ShumDit
 

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That's unfortunate, but we all have to remember who holds the cards in the warranty deck...GM. We have a real aggressive GM Service Rep that services our Chevrolet Dealership, and I've seen warranties blocked without a blink of an eye. If we get caught with a power enhancing modification and it does cause a problem, lets face it, we're gonna have to pay. Thorco, I hope you can prove to them that the hypertech didn't cause the problem. We had a customer that hypertech'd his 8.1 gas motor (on his own) and it caused the PCM to go bonkers...guess who payed?...him! GM proved that the hypertech zinged his PCM to failure and denied a warranty claim just on the PCM, not the entire truck (thankfully) We all have to be prepared.
 

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I might get flamed for this, but let me play devils advocate for a minute. What if the Hypertech did cause the problem? Should GM be responsible for footing the bill? I am not standing up for GM, and I am not saying mods are bad (just look @ my sig. line, I have many), but even if you "return" your truck to stock before bringing it in for work, I do not think GM (or any company) should be responsible IF, AND ONLY IF, the problem was due to a mod. Now if you have a problem that is common among similar type vehicles, or obviously has nothing to do with a mod., then they should definately fix it under warranty, no questions asked. Part of the reason these (and all other products) are high priced is the potential warranty cost and/or potential liability costs that may arise, even if it is not a legitimate warranty issue. For example, how many guys have had tranny issues due to increased torque/hp from boxes/programmers, removed them, and then had it fixed under "warranty"? These are things that can have an affect on the bottom line. Sure, GM is a huge company, and can probably afford it, but it will always get passed on to the ultimate consumer in the form of higher prices. I think you should keep the heat on GM to PROVE it was the Hypertech, and, if so, forward the results to Hypertech and make a claim with them. Too many of us are quick to blame GM or a dealer/service writer/tech for problems we just might have caused ourself, and just because they cannot "see" the problem causer (i.e. programmer, etc) at the time of diagnosis, does'nt mean it should be fixed just because it is still under warranty. Thorco69, I am not saying you are trying to put one over on GM, it is obvious you are not, and are willing to go back to Hypertech if need be, but your problem just got me thinking about warranty versus mods, and all the things that happen. At some point, we all need to take some responsibility for our own actions. We are all big boys and know at some point, you have to pay to play.
DinoMax
 

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thorco69



Glad to hear your capable monetarily and mentally to go up against big corporations such as GM ... Must aren't capable, I look forward to the resolution ....
No matter what is written in these pages don't feel slighted in anyway and please keep us informed .....

I mean this in all sincerity, Good Luck ....

Everyone should refresh yourself by reading the manufactures warranty on all items "purchased" including that GM vehicle parked in your driveway .....

Let this be a lesson to all you that think it's OK to volunteer info and tell your GM service provider that your running a BOX regardless if their OK in the beginning, or they sell the devices .... They'll STOP trouble shooting and point the finger ... Scapegoat policy ....



Mac
 

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Discussion Starter #11
For all of you who might question my motives if you read my post, you would have read that if GM and again that is a big if can prove to me under the guidelines establish by the Fed and CARB in California, that Hypertech is responsible, then of course GM should'nt be held responsible. If they are just ducking the issue, then I would hope Hypertech and other manufacturers such as K&N jump on the band wagon and put their money where their mouth and warranties, are. After all, most of them tell you in their advertising that their product won't void your warranty. We'll see what happens.
 

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Thorco69, I was in no way trying to slight you or question your motives, and apologize if that is the way it was taken. I applaud you for making a stand, and requiring proof from GM instead of just sitting back and accepting what they say. I was just using your scenario to raise another question about others who hide mods and still expect "free" repairs, even when the mod was the cause for the problem. It will be interesting to see what happens, and how the aftermarket companies respond to the findings. Good Luck, DinoMax
 

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I took it at face value ~ appears to be a principle thing as the unwarranty repair bill would be less out of pocket than most of us would have to pay an atty. Looks like he may have access to some on retainer and the intestinal fortitude to see it thru. There's is something in me that rebels at what I call the detroit attitude ~ wherein the big dog can/does throw its weight around seemingly unjustly.


Reminds me of our recent recall of our governor. He spent money he didn't have knowing that he would take it out of our pocket w/o our consent. Fortunately, there was a person, another politician, that was able to put up personal funds to launch the effort for us to boot him out. (Now, it remains to be seen just how good our new governator will be)
 

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thorco69 said:
If they are just ducking the issue, then I would hope Hypertech and other manufacturers such as K&N jump on the band wagon and put their money where their mouth and warranties, are. After all, most of them tell you in their advertising that their product won't void your warranty. We'll see what happens.

Very true statement thorco69, if you call any of the aftermarket companies they will never tell you their product will void your warranty.


Good luck!
 

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Thorco-


Good luck with the process. I think you're doing the right thing.


Maybe it's been hashed out before, but I have this nagging question about boxes and programmers. I'm not trying to start any manufacturer-bashing, just take my question as method A vs. method B.


It seems to me that there is more warranty risk involved with programmers like the Hypertech and others that are actively writing stuff to the computer's memory. I have to assume that if a dealer hooks into the ECM, they'll know something has been changed by simply checking the existing data against the stock GM parameters. And I'm assuming the ECM probably remembers when that was done. And I'll also wager that during the process, just like your home computer, it's possible to garble the information on the flash memory. And thus the dealer sees it and goes "ah-ha, there it is." Boom. Done.


For the other boxes like the Juice, my question is, is it writing anything, or is it taking the datastreams from the sensors and adding to it. And maybe I'm being stupid here, but for example if you took the crank/cam sensor data and had a box add timing (just take the data and add so many degrees to it) then the ECM will simply respond to what it's being told, without writing anything to the flash memory.


You guys have commented in the past that there is such a thing as a "Juice Detector," so I'm just wondering uf some of you guys could connect the dots for me. What exactly is the Juice messing with?


I know I'm probably oversimplifying the matter.


Thanks Guys.....
 

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nwpadmax said:
Thorco-


Good luck with the process. I think you're doing the right thing.


Maybe it's been hashed out before, but I have this nagging question about boxes and programmers. I'm not trying to start any manufacturer-bashing, just take my question as method A vs. method B.


It seems to me that there is more warranty risk involved with programmers like the Hypertech and others that are actively writing stuff to the computer's memory. I have to assume that if a dealer hooks into the ECM, they'll know something has been changed by simply checking the existing data against the stock GM parameters. And I'm assuming the ECM probably remembers when that was done. And I'll also wager that during the process, just like your home computer, it's possible to garble the information on the flash memory. And thus the dealer sees it and goes "ah-ha, there it is." Boom. Done.


For the other boxes like the Juice, my question is, is it writing anything, or is it taking the datastreams from the sensors and adding to it. And maybe I'm being stupid here, but for example if you took the crank/cam sensor data and had a box add timing (just take the data and add so many degrees to it) then the ECM will simply respond to what it's being told, without writing anything to the flash memory.


You guys have commented in the past that there is such a thing as a "Juice Detector," so I'm just wondering uf some of you guys could connect the dots for me. What exactly is the Juice messing with?


I know I'm probably oversimplifying the matter.


Thanks Guys.....

I asked about the reflash, one would assume that by restoring stock data that the ECM is returned to the previous state before the reflash.


The Can/Bus type boxes, Juice, VA intercept the signal, modify it and send it along, IIRC it does not leave any traces.


It has been rumored that a JUICE detector exists is somewhere, I do not beleive it and although an educated tech could look at trans. tap cell data and see an anomoly due to the Allsion's adaptive learning, I do not beleive anything conclusive could be proved by that data alone.


All this is speculation and I have no facts to prove or disprove this.


I know when my truck is run stock the shifts are very firm and crisp, unlike a stock Allison. This is due to the Allison adapting to higher HP/TQ and then it shifts harder when under stock power.


I would not worry about it, dealers in general cannot diagnose problems when codes are set. I reset all SES codes before dealer visits and restore all stock data to the ECM.


I have never been questioned or denied warranty work due to my tires, gauges or other Mod's.


I go in "STOCK" without anything in or on the truck as far as performance.


OUT OF SIGHT....OUT OF MIND





T
NYEdited by: GMC-2002-Dmax
 

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Thanks Tony-


Nah, I'm not "worried" about it per se, and I agree about returning the thing to stock before going to the dealer. Some might call me paranoid, but I went in for a small totally unrelated repair and I took the Juice off. I figured all it would take is some Gomer Pyle to do me a "favor" and check the oil or something simple and then go "heeeyyyy, whatsis?"


What the heck is the trans. tap cell?


Do you use your Predator to clear codes and restore factory data?


With the programmers, boy, you'd sure want to keep that thing with you at all times. If she died and I couldn't reflash for whatever reason, boy, I'd be crapping my pants.
 

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nwpadmax said:
It seems to me that there is more warranty risk involved with programmers like the Hypertech and others that are actively writing stuff to the computer's memory. I have to assume that if a dealer hooks into the ECM, they'll know something has been changed by simply checking the existing data against the stock GM parameters. And I'm assuming the ECM probably remembers when that was done. And I'll also wager that during the process, just like your home computer, it's possible to garble the information on the flash memory. And thus the dealer sees it and goes "ah-ha, there it is." Boom. Done.

Yes, the ECM flash design is GM's and only GM knows for sure how things are laid out in there. There are usually locked areas of flash memory that do house keeping tasks, such as how many times the flash has been erased, written, etc. It would be easy for GM to figure out whether someone's been messing with the family jewels.
 

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Thanks Ray - that makes sense to me. It's like going into the system register on your PC. Everything may look normal in Windows, but if you dig deep enough, like the registry, or into DOS or the BIOS, you can find tons of stuff.


Maybe Quad would offer some comments here, he should have the skinny.
 

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I dont know about the hypertech, but the Predator makes it clear that it is not to be used with on highway vehicles in CA...


Wouldnt want you to get dinged for emissions violations either...
 
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