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Most of you have seen the picture of my 1950 mile fuel filter. I think that most would agree that I must have some water in the tank. I have been running power service additive for a long time, so it must not deal with water. I went looking at the truckstops today for something that would remove the water, but they all contained alcohol. Do they make something without alcohol?
Kirk
 

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You can use Stanadyne conditioner, it is one of only two recommended by GM, do a search of Fuel additives and you will have plenty of reading as there are quite a few diffrent opinions on the subject, but that's what a I use.

As far as your tank ALL the sending (Pickup) cups sit on the BOTTOM of the tank, once your fuel level gets below 1/4 tank or so ALL the fuel and water or sand or any other crap that might be there gets sucked up from the bottom of the fuel tank till you get it filled up again.

So unless you have a LOT of water the best way to clean up a little condensation is to let the fuel fall below 1/4 tank and drive it till it's almost empty so that the crap gets sucked up and the tank will get cleaned out and the fuel filter/water separator can do it's job and clean the crap out.

This works if you only have some condensation or small amount of crap in there, if were talking a large amount of bad fuel then your better off just pulling the tank and cleaning it out.

Maybe change your filter again in another 2,000 miles and cut it open to see what it looks like and make a judgement call from there wheather or not it's been cleaned up enough.

DD

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Diesel Dragon,
Many people believe in the MYTH that if you let your fuel tank get down low you pick up the junk on the bottom of the tank. The fuel pick is not at the exact bottom of the tank. Try this experiment, you need a glass, drinking straw, water, diesel fuel or oil. Put 1/2 inch of water in the glass, and fill the remainder with fuel or oil. Put the straw in the glass so it is 1 inch off the bottom. If you would suck on the straw :badidea: you would suck out all the fuel until it reached the 1 inch point, the water would remain on the bottom no matter how hard you tried. The only way your scenario would work is if the fuel pickup were always floating at the top of the fuel.
 

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The fuel pickup point on our trucks is in fact only about 1/2" from the bottom of the fuel tank All the time. The reason I said wait to you get under 1/4 tank is becasue at fuel levels above that point fuel is able to "fall" into the fuel cup from the top and you won't always be sucking fuel from the bottom of the tank.

Your experiment with the glass would work if the fuel and water was allowed to seperate but in a moving truck with no baffles in the fuel tank the fuel is constantly sloshed and agitated in the tank mixing the water and fuel together.

Below 1/4 tank if there was any larger quantity of water or if the truck sat over night and allowed the mix to seperate you would in fact suck everything up off the bottom of the tank except for the bottom 1/2" or so, which when you started driving would get mixed into the rest of the fuel and get sucked up anyway.

If you go to this link and look at post number 32 I put up some pictures of the sending unit:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28833&page=2&highlight=fuel+pickup+pictures

If you look at the second picture down on the left you will see the "legs" that keep the pickup unit off the bottom of the "cup" which is to the left in the picture. The "cup" sits right on the bottom of the tank. You can see how tall the "cup" is and once your fuel level drops down below the top of it all the fuel is sucked in from the bottom of that "cup".

The picture to the right on the first row shows the bottom of the cup and all the fuel is pulled in through that small check valve opening and also in through that "log".

When people pull their fuel tanks for one reason or another their suprised at how clean the inside of the tank is. Thats because fuel is constantly sucked off the bottom of the tank below 1/4 tank and so is any other crap that might be in there.

So if there is any water or any other crap in your tank it Will get sucked up and more so when your fuel level falls below 1/4 tank. Maybe not heavy particles but most of the free floating stuff will be.

DD

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PS. How do I post pictures on this thread from another thread ? My "copy" and "paste" dosent work with pictures.
 

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The fuel pickup point on our trucks is in fact only about 1/2" from the bottom of the fuel tank All the time. The reason I said wait to you get under 1/4 tank is becasue at fuel levels above that point fuel is able to "fall" into the fuel cup from the top and you won't always be sucking fuel from the bottom of the tank.

A liquid will take the path of least resistance to flow. The pressure (weight of the fuel) will be a little greater at the bottom of the tank causing fuel to be picked up from the bottom at all times.

Your experiment with the glass would work if the fuel and water was allowed to seperate but in a moving truck with no baffles in the fuel tank the fuel is constantly sloshed and agitated in the tank mixing the water and fuel together.

If the water and fuel are constantly sloshed and agitated :exactly: then you will be be picking up the water no matter how full the tank is. Only time this might not be true is when it is completly full.

Below 1/4 tank if there was any larger quantity of water or if the truck sat over night and allowed the mix to seperate you would in fact suck everything up off the bottom of the tank except for the bottom 1/2" or so, which when you started driving would get mixed into the rest of the fuel and get sucked up anyway

See, we agree, just got to the conclusion via a different path.:)
 

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If you "only had a little water" in your tank, you could add a heavy dose of emulsifing fuel conditioner and fuel up, which will break down the water, and allow it to flow and burn with the fuel. Personally, I'd use FPPF or Primrose.
Problem is, how much water/crud/particles do you really have in your tank. There could be a lot, and dropping your tank to flush may be the best thing, but the most work.
GM only recommends the Stanadyne fuel conditioner, (could be a warantee issue), which I believe is a demulsifier. Demulsifiers seperate water from fuel, and where it settles out, no one really knows.
 

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The water will settle at the bottom of your tank and get sucked up in big slugs as it sloshes back and forth past the fuel pick up. You'll need to either drain it or emulsify it and burn it with the fuel.
 

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Maybe I'm "all wet" about the water, but I think that the demulsifiers separate the water out of the fuel, so it's going somewhere other than through the injectors. Being vigilant about draining the water separator on the bottom of the fuel filter seems like the only place to easily remove the water if using this type of additive. Maybe adding a secondary filter with a water separator as well might help, but the water might separate out and not make it to either separator, thereby staying in the tank, and becoming a problem when the tank gets low. Since there is water in all fuel, it has to be dealt with some way. I also think that the emulsifier type actually removes the water by running it through the injectors, and GM seems to frown on this by approving use of the first type in an attempt to keep water out of the injectors. Maybe the only sure way to assess how much water is actually in the tank is to drop it and drain it, or pump it out somehow then look at the fuel. Maybe it's time for somebody to R & D a kit to install a drain in the bottom of the tank for easy drains?
 

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If you "only had a little water" in your tank, you could add a heavy dose of emulsifing fuel conditioner and fuel up, which will break down the water, and allow it to flow and burn with the fuel. Personally, I'd use FPPF or Primrose.
Problem is, how much water/crud/particles do you really have in your tank. There could be a lot, and dropping your tank to flush may be the best thing, but the most work.
GM only recommends the Stanadyne fuel conditioner, (could be a warantee issue), which I believe is a demulsifier. Demulsifiers seperate water from fuel, and where it settles out, no one really knows.
Modified is correct, GM only recommends a demulsifier because they don't want the molcules of water that were broken down by the emulsifier going through the injectors (wonder why?). The demulsifier separates the water out and it goes to the bottom of the tank. If you get enough of it there, the fuel pick up will suck it up.

The only way I know to remove the water with out a drain plug in the bottom of the tank is to remove the tank and take out the sending unit so you can pour out all the water and trash. Do it, you'll be glad you did and then buy your fuel from someone else.
 

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would it be possible angle the truck and to snake a stiff piece of tubing into the corner of the tank and pump the bottom out??? or is this too simple??


Tony
 

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DD: Open the picture you want to paste and copy the address (or shortcut) of the picture. Then paste that into the "insert image" key (the little yellow picture with the mountains):



 

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All this "crud sucking" talk is not valid in my opinion. If you look at this picture, you see TWO white flex hoses. The larger one is the fuel pickup from the gray plastic "screen" the smaller one is the fuel return hose, which sprays continuously down into the "bucket". Watching fuel return flow in my aux tank (which also sprays down into the corner baffle box for that tank's pickup) There's a constant pressurized stream of return fuel that quite vigorously agitates the fuel at the pickup. Unless you get a couple gallons of water and only at first start, where return flow hasn't begun, you're not going to get any "crud sucking!"

 

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The pickup is about as close to the floor as you can get. It all (below about 1/4 tank)flows in through the little 3 window brown spot in the image above. The only other way in is over the top.

If you believe the BS about demulsifying the water and catching it in the filter then go ahead. When you catch and drain this water I'd like to see a picture...

Otherwise, I'd dump a half bottle of FPPF Fuel Power into each of the next two full tanks of fuel. From there, FPPF Total Power in all fuel...
 

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Dropping the tank and flushing it will be good, ..............................for now. IMO, if you continue using either no fuel treatment, or an demulsifier, you'll be visiting this issue again in the future.
Demulsifiers probably work well in stationary, above ground tanks that have a drain valve, but I doubt they work in tanks of sloshing fuel, and with no drain valve to remove free water.
 

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Petroleum based demulsifiers like Stanadyne are said to be ineffective also.

The only "water" looking substance that I have ever seen in my 2002 was drained from my secondary Mega filter. My guess is that the water stripping treatment, huge size, and lack of vibration allowed it to catch it.

No additive will remove all water especially in large slugs, but using an emulsifying additive will help keep things happy...
 

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Sure would be nice if GM would install a drain plug on the bottom of the tank.....
 

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The fuel pickup point on our trucks is in fact only about 1/2" from the bottom of the fuel tank All the time. The reason I said wait to you get under 1/4 tank is becasue at fuel levels above that point fuel is able to "fall" into the fuel cup from the top and you won't always be sucking fuel from the bottom of the tank.

A liquid will take the path of least resistance to flow. The pressure (weight of the fuel) will be a little greater at the bottom of the tank causing fuel to be picked up from the bottom at all times.


Yes the fuel will take the easiest path, but with the extra weight of the fuel at higher tank levels it not only puts weight and pressure on the fuel but Also on the rubber check valve at the bottom of the fuel cup which MAY help hold it closed and keep much fuel from coming in the bottom of the cup. It would in that case be easier to just pull fuel thats falling in from the top.
Like I said I know the pickup is at the bottom the only reason I Mentioned to allow the tank to fall below 1/4 was the fact that then the fuel has no CHOICE but to get sucked up from the bottom of the tank along with any water.
And then it would be the filter/water seperators job to clean it up.
But as you can see from the posts above theres no end to the emulsifacation/demulsifacation arguement.


See, we agree, just got to the conclusion via a different path.:)

Yes we agreed from the start



Here's the bottom of the bucket that the fuel pickup sit's in, and all the fuel comes in through that little hole on the bottom AND there's is a rubber check valve that covers the hole up but was removed in the picture. There is a shot of the black rubber check valve in the second picture, it's sitting on the counter.








Here's the second picture:



I should also mention that some fuel does come in near that manifold on the bottom of the cup, it's part of the return line from the engine and pulls fuel into the cup by a vacum affect as the fuel is returning into the cup.

I know I've gotten way off topic with these pictures and stuff but all I wanted to stress in my original post was that below 1/4 tank all the fuel comes from the bottom NO choice.

DD

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PS. Thx Idle Chatter for your help. You taught a man to fish today :ro)

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The pickup is about as close to the floor as you can get. It all (below about 1/4 tank)flows in through the little 3 window brown spot in the image above. The only other way in is over the top.

If you believe the BS about demulsifying the water and catching it in the filter then go ahead. When you catch and drain this water I'd like to see a picture...

Otherwise, I'd dump a half bottle of FPPF Fuel Power into each of the next two full tanks of fuel. From there, FPPF Total Power in all fuel...
This discussion is a learning process for me, and it's tough to decide which approach is the lesser of the two evils. If I have this straight, emulsifying additives somehow suspend the water in the fuel and runs it out through the injectors? While demulsifying separates the water out of the fuel and stores it in the fuel tank? None of this water gets trapped in the water separator? On either filter if a secondary filter has a separator as well? And running the emulsified fuel combined with water through the injectors does no harm to them?
 

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This discussion is a learning process for me, and it's tough to decide which approach is the lesser of the two evils. If I have this straight, emulsifying additives somehow suspend the water in the fuel and runs it out through the injectors? While demulsifying separates the water out of the fuel and stores it in the fuel tank? None of this water gets trapped in the water separator? On either filter if a secondary filter has a separator as well? And running the emulsified fuel combined with water through the injectors does no harm to them?
Welcome to the great "emulsify/demulsify" debate! It has raged for over a year now. A personal choice has to be made because there are strong opinions, advocates and "science" on both sides of the issue. My personal choice and not necessary a demand that you follow suit is to use a high-quality solubilizing additive (emulsifying is not correct, an emulsion is an mechanically mixed solution, like shaken italian dressing and the water is still there as water and will destroy the injectors). FPPF and Primrose are two of the major solubilizing additives. I use FPPF. It solubilizes and allows the moisture to be carried through the fuel system and burned as fuel without damaging the injectors.

The fuel tank is mixed and agitated by motion and return fuel and is not an effective water separator/trap. The OEM fuel filter is shaken by engine vibration and is not an effective water separator/trap. Any free water in the fuel is devastatingly damaging to the injectors. Adding an additive that will SEPARATE and CREATE free water in the fuel with no real defenses against it getting to the injectors is just crazy in my opinion, and I won't do it to MY truck!:eek:
 
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