[Roegs]

With all the discussion on clean fuel, where do fuel additives fit in? Looking at the total power site, ( I believe JK uses their products) they advertise that their product increases fuel lubricity and emulsifies moisture.


Questions:


1. Would the additional lubricity be beneficial to injection pumps?


2. Would emulsifying the moisture assist with corrosion problems within the OEM Racor filter?





Thanks!

 

[GMC-2002-Dmax]

I believe that the poor quality of diesel fuel around running an additive is probably beneficial.


I have heard that total power is a good product.


GMC

 

[hoot]

I've used Total Power. I now use Stanadyne Performance.
Don't ask me why, I have nothing that says one is better than the other.

Total Power sends the water through the injection system supposedly in an emulsified state.

I believe Stanadyne does the opposite, allowing our filters to remove it.

The word is be sure they do not contain alchohol.

 

[Mr X]

Goerge Morrison, the diesel fuel guru at AVLube.com also recommends Primrose 405 and 409 (winter). He strongly recommends emilsifiers that pick-up and carry the water out of the system and into combustion rather than de-emulisfiers that rid the diesel of water and which can cause water to drop out anywhere in the system.

 

[Mic_]

I've use power service from wally world without a problem. 50k later...still running like new.

 

[TheChevyHDMan]

Ive been running the Standadyne...and before that I was running FPPF/Total Power. All of these products smell the same even the Amsoil Cetane Boost. I dont know if the are all composed simularly? Personally I think my trucks the smoothest with Standadyne, but no real proof to go on but opinion... I didnt buy it from some discount place but a local dealer...Think its like 7.20 for a bottle that treats 60 gallons. No proof it cleans up/ helps present injector issues as Predator doesnt really show any difference before/aft using it.


In winter, no one agrees with me on this but we have done it for years, is we just add a few gallons of kero when we fill up, We havent had a gelling problem in almost 10 years... If we do its usually the Ol' Ironsides garbage truck that has a Cat 3208NA

 

[Victory Red]

This is one of those things that as long as you're using a good quality name product, probably doesn't hurt, but whether or not it does any real good, hard to say.


I did remember hearing(take with a grain of salt) once that certain additivies while they add cetane can actually lower btu's of the fuel a small percentage resulting in lower fuel economy.


In my case I run the FPPF in every tank. It doesn't cost much(4oz+/-) a tankfull with my 26gal.


Whether or not it does me good, bad or no difference, well I can't see the internals so I truly can't answer. This is one of those things that we need time and lots of feedback on to get a baseline.


Although until I get some real answers one way or the other, I;m thinking it's a good thing.

 

[FirstDiesel]

I think the choice you need to make is who you beleive. People like George Morrison with years of fuel experience is my choice. He says to use an additive that locks up the water and passes it through the system. This equals the Total Power or the Primrose. I'm more comfortable knowing smalll quantites of water are held in suspension and not allowed to sit loose in my system. Of course if there is a big hit of water it will get caught in the filter, I hope!!

 

[hoot]

I use a Racor secondary fuel filter that claims to use a special filter media treatment called "aquablock". This supposedly blocks water from passing through. In my case, I'm thinking if the water is in suspension, this filter may not do it's job. I like the idea of stopping water as completely as possible before the injection system.

George's suggestion may be based on water buildup in the tank and/or no water repellent type filters.

Either way, I'm no expert on fuel additives. Edited by: hoot

 

[ronbuick]

Anyone familiar with Schaeffer's Neutra fuel treatment, thanks.


Ron

 

[Tsckey]

I understand generally that Schaeffer products have a good reputation, but I'm not familiar with their additive. I use Redline Oil's 85Plus diesel additive. It is also an emulsifier. Redline makes a winterized version, but I've only used the straight stuff, which is all the local distributor I go to carries. The truck seems to run a little smoother when it's in the tank. I've run it for almost a year now with no apparent ill effects.

TC

 

[JohnnyO]

Roegs-


In April GM issued a bulletin modifying their position of no diesel fuel additives to one that it is ok if the owner see fit. A few guidlines were listed.


"This information pertains to 1994-2003 vehicles with 6.5L or 6.6L Diesel Engine (VINs F, P, S, Y, 1 -- RPOs L65, L49, L56, L57, LB7). (fig. 1)


IMPORTANT: Only alcohol-free water demulsifiers should be used in General Motors Diesel engines. Both Racor® and Stanadyne® diesel fuel additives are alcohol-free and utilize water demulsifiers to cope with water in the fuel. Other brands may be available in different areas. Before using them, be sure they clearly state that they are alcohol-free demulsifiers.


(We believe these sources and their products to be reliable. General Motors does not endorse, indicate any preference for or assume any responsibility for the products from this firm or for any such items, which may be available from other sources.)
Water Emulsifiers and Demulsifiers
Fuel additives must be selected carefully. There are two common methods that fuel additives use to cope with water in the fuel.

Demulsification causes water particles to combine together to form larger particles, which drop out of suspension. This allows the fuel filter/water separator to separate the water from the fuel as it is designed to.

Emulsification keeps water particles suspended in the fuel. Alcohol is frequently used as the emulsifier. Emulsification can allow water to get past the fuel filter/water separator, in most cases causing damage to the fuel system."

 

[conradv]

Sounds like GM doesn't like Total Power or the Primrose.

 

[Georgecls]

There are diesel fuel additives and then there are additives. Some are high quality, really useful. Primrose and FPPF are two that I have many years experience with. The advantages to a diesel fuel system with Primrose 405 are: 1. Cetane boost in the 4 to 5 range depending on base stock quality. 2. Lubricity enhancement. 3. Emulsion of free water, to tie it up, surrounding the water molecule with a lubrcating barrier so it can safely pass through our fuel system. 4. rust and corrosion prevention 5. detergency to keep the complete fuel system including injector tips clean and performing optimally. 6. Functioning as a bacteriastat in that if there is no free water in the system, there will be no water/fuel point for bacteria to propagate.
All packed into one ounce per tankful... A modest investment for a pretty effective insurance policy. Plus continued optimum performance. With so much marginal 40 to 45 cetane diesel fuel on the market, our high performance Duramax engines thrive on a 50 cetane! Yes, you can feel the difference with the Duramax.. And yes, my position is contrary to that published by GM. However, Primrose/FPPF fuel additves do not contain alcohols but do tie up free water. We have run numeous before/after fuel tests on the Duramax OEM fuel filter/water separation system which clearly indicates what goes in comes out the other side unaffected.. i.e. a 90 ppm water level in yields a 90 ppm water out of the water separator.. Moreover, if one gets a 'slug' of water in a diesel fuel load, not even the Primrose or FPPF is going to be able to emulsify that much water, nor will the water separator; your truck will announce loudly that there is a water problem!
George Morrison, STLE CLS Edited by: Georgecls

 

[conradv]

Thanks George! I figured you'd be over here on the new page.

 

[nobull1]

Ok got to get my nose in here.What happens if we have injector,lines,pump problems and they find so called "water" damage somewhere on the wrong side of filter.Maybe the dealer says oh well, or maybe he says emulsifier no warranty you pay and if you have a problem with that we will send your fuel for a test and charge you if positive results

.All that being said I use Stanadyne "GM approved" and find a big differance when I forget to add to my tank.Also the other day I was talking to our local Bosch diesel service center and his opinion was do not try to make the water go past the filter by using a emulsifier, use nothing or a demulsifier.So that is His,GM,Mine,and he says Bosch's opinion. If I am missing something just let me know.I just think using non GM approved product might cause problem's if we have fuel related trouble.Which a few seem to be having. Oh by the way great site and it's FREE

 

[CS-Dmax]

It sounds to me like George is saying that the filter really does not seem to trap entrained water, so it is best to try to break it up and wrap a lubricant around it. Also, I would say what the dealer don't know won't hurt him. Don't volunteer that you are using FPPF or primrose....


I think I might just keep a bottle of stanadyne around...if I have problems where the dealer might be interested, time for a double slug in the tank. If anyone wants to sample, let 'em try to figure that one out!

 

[nobull1]

CS-DMAX


I agree maybe George is right but GM and Bosch say no and GM does the warranty.So my point being if you use something that they say not to and have a problem you should be prepared just in case, as you have said to cover your a$$.My opinion is after 2 years of the Duramax being on the market GM comes out and says use a demulsifier if you want to,after doing checks on their many warranty claims I'm sure .Now if they thought water was getting past the filter and causing a problem they could have just as easy have said emulsifier instead but they didn't.So after 2 years of warranty research is GM wrong

maybe I don't know.I have lots of questions but few answers.Something to think about anyway.

 

[Georgecls]

One of the easiest way for GM/Dealer to get around warranty claims on a diesel is 'visible corrosion due to water'. I work with construction companies that literally have hundreds of 6.5's and Duramax service verhicles. In case after case, they had been writing multi-thousand dollar checks for pump and system repairs due to disallow of warranty due to obvious water damage/corrosion. Not that the component was damaged from water; in most cases it was just a physical, unrelated failure. However, free water is the number one cause of warranty disallow. Soooo, if one wants to address the #1 cause of warranty disallow in addition to providing all the other benefits that a high quality fuel additive can bring...??? One recent trip to a local GM service center had 3 trucks sitting out back as the $3,000+ estimate for repairs for each was beyond each owner's budget; the trucks had been there for several weeks. All three trucks were under the mileage/time warranty limit but all three had fuel system corrosion..
Since the EPA pronounced that diesel fuel bottom water is hazardous, many fewer operations are drawing bottom water off diesel fuel storage tanks. Both free and entrained water is now present in much higher quantities than in years past. As we have seen in fuel test after fuel test, the Stanadyne water separator is relatively ineffective (some say totally) at removing water. Even with a de-emulsifying fuel additive, the minute the vehicle starts up and begins moving, that separated water goes right back into loose emulsion and will not be removed by the water separator. Now, when the vehicle shuts down again and the loosely emulsified water that has passed by the water separator has time to sit, yes, it will once again separate out, settle and proceed to cause corrosion, rust and on start-up potential damaging results..
George Morrison, STLE CLS

 

[hoot]

Welcome George.

How about the emulsifier types. How well do they work at keeping the water in emulsion?

Racor claims their "Aquablock" filter media repels water. It's all kind of confusing. Emulsify, block, trap, let it run through.

I figured using the aquablock and two filters with water traps, the Stanadyne formula would complement the whole system. The idea being stopping water before it gets into the high pressure pump.

Are we sure emulsifing makes a difference?

Since you stated that the Stanadyne water seperator does little to seperate water, I think I will go back to FPPF when this case runs out.Edited by: hoot