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Discussion Starter #1
If demulsifier fuel addidtives cause the water to seperate from the fuel and form droplets, why don't these water droplets accumulate in the tank until the water reaches such a depth that it reaches the level of the suction pick up near the botom of the tank and then is sucked into the filters.. Or does it and we just don't know it until the OEM sensor tells us. Anybody had this experience. In these days tanks have improved and there is a lot less water leakeage into the underground tanks, but I remember when the problem was so bad tank drain petcocks were a must . I put one on my Olds 98 diesel and it saved me taking that tank off a number of times. Had an after market RACOR (mounted in from of radiator/condensor coil) with visible viewng glass to. I think that set up back then cost about $85 installed. Bill Edited by: Bill Gisse
 

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Bill ~ I'm guessing the dropplets are quite miniscule at first before they join up w/others, merge & enlarge before they fall to the bottom w/a thud. I'm thinking those initial dropplets simply go w/the flow and of course find their sole source way to the water separator. Accordingly, I've not agonized too much over it. Some folks opt for and make a case for the emulsifying approach to water-in-the-fuel management ~ but is contrary to GMs recommendation.
 

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they just might accumulate there. George Morrison could answer this question best. I think you are right though. that's why i run the Primrose 405..
 

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Could some knowledgable person make a list of which additives are emusifing and demulsifing.


*PFFP----------EMULSIFIES


*Primrose-------EMULSIFIES


*Howes---------DEMULSIFIES


*Rotella DFA-----EMULSIFIES


*Power Service--DEMULSIFIES


*Lucas----------DEMULSIFIES


*Stanadyne------DEMULSIFIES


Anybody know of any others. Label each one what it does with water.


Please correct this if any of these are wrong. So....green is good and red is bad?
Edited by: Maverick
 

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I'm sure George will know it all here but I think that


PFFP emulsifies


Primrose emulsifies


Rotella DFA emulsifies


I'm not sure but I think the others deemulsify
 

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Had an email from the PowerSource folks that theirs is a demulsifier and in keeping w/GMs recommendation. Had to reformat the HD and lost it. Edited by: ShumDit
 

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Stanadyne is a demulsifier.
 

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Additionally, if a diesel fuel additive is used that actively demulsifies water, we will have the perfect condition for microbial growth. Microbes exist in all water. If a pool of water is allowed to form, microbial colonies will begin growing at an incredibly fast rate. Microbial by-products are acidic, which when combined with the free water that exists, enables corrosion to occur very quickly on expsnsive metal surfaces. The acidic by-products also attack seals, gaskets and hoses.
The whole issue of demulsification is the result of the manufacturer of the water separator to improve the performance of the water separator. From the water separator manufacturer's viewpoint, anything to improve the performance is a plus. The water separator manufacturer is not concerned with what goes on elsewhere in the diesel fuel system, only the water separator.. So problems such as free-water settle elsewhere in the system, microbe formation, corrosion issues, not really water separator manufacturer's problem....
As has been referenced in other posts, chemically locking up small amounts of water is an avenue being researched for improved cumbustion cycles/reduced emissions, by CAT and other engine manufacturers.
As I have shared in previous posts, free water is far more a threat to our engines, our warranties, than emulsified/locked up water. There have been significantly more warranty dis-allows on Duramax/6.5TD engines due to system corrosion (the result of free water) than any other cause, from my experience.
George Morrison
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Lots of words are flowing on the good and bad of both emulsified and demulsifie type fuel conditioners. We seem to be split in our beliefs. I agree with George Morrison that standing water is a problem so I don't understand why GM okays conditioners that have demulsifier additives . Maybe they don't care about the $400 or so that it costs to have the tank cleaned. Now Shell is selling a fuel with an additibve that encapsulates the water and burns it with the fuel and supposedly without harm to anything. Unfortantly that fuel is only avaiable in one place in Calif. In reading about most of the conditioners mentioned on the forum one of the companies ( HOWES) says thier conditioner encapsulates the water and passes it thru the system. Has anybody else read that and understand it the same way I do?
 

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Regarding "says thier conditioner encapsulates the water and passes it thru the system" This is an excellent, simple description of water/fuel emulsification. Primrose 405 and 409 winter formula does exactly the same with water. Chemically locking it up and surrounding the water molecule, individually, with a lubrcating surround enabling small amounts of water to safely pass through a high pressure fuel injection system. However, we are talking about entrained water of 100ppm or less. If we get much above 100ppm of water, even the best of emulsifiers cannot deal with higher levels of water content. Then a water separator can try to deal with those levels or 'slugs' of water..
George Morrison
 

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If I am not mistaken I believe that sometimes fuel suppliers (other than just Shell) will use an emulsifier in storage tanks. And additionally may even add some at the service station. Also notable is that they NEVER add a demulsifier. Perhaps somebody in the fuel business could shed more light on the subject.


The company who I buy my FPPF Total Power from (Petro Star) is a local fuel distributer that supplies much of rural Alaska. The government has granted them exemption from the recent reduction in sulpher content. The reason for this is that they supply many villages that are not on a road system, and use diesel generators extensively for power. Power failure for those people could be much more serious than for most of us as they could be isolated in sub zero weather for long periods of time, and potentially in total darkness for months. The point is that they use FPPF Fuel Power (which is the base ingredient in Total Power) in this fuel that has to be fail safe.


I would like to speak with someone within that company who has more knowledge and willingness to share. Unfortunately I am treated as a very small and insignifigant transaction by employees at thier lowest level who seem to have no time for me. They did want to know how I liked my new Dmax though. --SS
 

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Redline 85+ diesel fuel additive is another emulsifier. I've been using it for the past year with no adverse consequences. The engine seems to run more smoothly and quietly with it. I'm going to try Primrose, but last time I stopped by Nick's to pick up a bottle he was hiding behind the door or something.

TC
 

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salmon slayer said:
If I am not mistaken I believe that sometimes fuel suppliers (other than just Shell) will use an emulsifier in storage tanks. And additionally may even add some at the service station. Also notable is that they NEVER add a demulsifier. Perhaps somebody in the fuel business could shed more light on the subject.

Here's an example of a bulk water dispersion product. It coats each water droplet with a lubricating coating. Note that the part about preventing stable emulsions is when the water is in too great a volume for burning as it passes through the engine...it causes the water to drop to the bottom of the tank until more additive is added to disperse an additional amount. http://www.schaefferoil.com/data/301.htm
 

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In the grand scheme of fuel delivery, from the time diesel fuel leaves the refinery until it is pumped into our fuel tank, water demulsification is what is needed. (and this from Mr. water emulsifcation!: read on...) As diesel fuel is allowed to sit, we want the water to settle like a rock, enabling the water to be drawn off on a regular basis. As has been discussed, until 5 years ago, daily bottom water draw was the job of the new hires at truck stops. With the EPA ruling that bottom water was hazardous, bottom water problems were eliminated by many truck stops no longer drawing bottom water, thus eliminating the need to pay the high price for hazardous waste haul off. So,ideally, until the diesel fuel reaches a final fueling point, bottom water should be drawn off regularly to minimize the actual water content in the diesel fuel; many fuel companies do demulsifier additization to facilitate water drop out and removal. However, once the diesel fuel gets into our dynamic, shaking, vibrating Duramax tanks, we no longer have the ability to drain off bottom water; moreover, the water is shaken into suspension on startup. Thus the need from this point on to chemically 'lock up' water, to prevent loosely entrained water from settling.. Diesel fuel delivery is quite a process indeed....
George Morrison
Edited by: Georgecls
 

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Thanks for the clarification George, I stand corrected.
I was almost certain that I had read something to the contrarary and tried to find it for reference but could not. Anyway I must have jumbled it somehow. --SS
 
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