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Discussion Starter #1
has anyone had a problem installing this new style clutch? had mine installed with a new slave cylinder... prob is the slave wont push in the fingers. its like they are stuck. they are going to take everything back apart and try to solve the problem. i will keep yall posted. hopefully this isnt going to cost me twice as much as originally quoted.
 

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What's the word?

:confuzeld
 

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Mine was really, really tempermental when I first installed it.... I couldn't get it into gear, and when I did, and went to let the clutch out, it made a terrible grinding noise..

I was like "oh great, what did I screw up"... I was actually ready to jack the truck back up, but I figured I would keep working it... I was really afraid to run it or drive it, but ended up driving it anyway, and it actually turned out pretty good..

I've heard of a couple others having similar troubles, so maybe its just the way it is?

just thought I would share my experience

later, TW
 

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kziggy;1592832; said:
has anyone had a problem installing this new style clutch? had mine installed with a new slave cylinder... prob is the slave wont push in the fingers. its like they are stuck. they are going to take everything back apart and try to solve the problem. i will keep yall posted. hopefully this isnt going to cost me twice as much as originally quoted.
I talked to Peter this morning and he is going to chat with your installer about this problem. Your installer (Todd) said that the chrome (?) studs on the clutch plate (I assume he ment those that attache the hub to the clutch plate) were rubbing on the flywheel hex bits. I have a couple of ideas why but without some pictures it is hard to verify. Todd is supposed to send some pics to Peter.
 

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t_dub1571;1593587; said:
Mine was really, really tempermental when I first installed it.... I couldn't get it into gear, and when I did, and went to let the clutch out, it made a terrible grinding noise..

I was like "oh great, what did I screw up"... I was actually ready to jack the truck back up, but I figured I would keep working it... I was really afraid to run it or drive it, but ended up driving it anyway, and it actually turned out pretty good..

I've heard of a couple others having similar troubles, so maybe its just the way it is?

just thought I would share my experience

later, TW

):h I always send installation instructions to customers. As it turns out, Kziggy 's installer did not want to see it because he already "knew everything". One possibility is that he didn't put the clutch plates in properly. For sure he did not check the kit assembly prior re-attaching the tranny. After that he busted the master cylinder and had to fix that before he disassembled examined the clutch kit installation.

At the bottom of the installations instructions I have my phone number and directions to call me when you are doing the install. A lot of customers don't and then run into some simple issue that take them some time.

The shifting problem you mentioned is not unusual and there is an easy and quick solution. If you cannot shift while the engine is running. Shut it off, shift to 1st or Rev, start the engine, and run for a couple hundred yards. At that point it will shift as it should.

Both SBC and my instructions include direction to break it the clutch kit. Guess why? Because it takes 200 miles or so for the kit and the engine crankshaft, tranny input shaft, and all the plates in the kit to get matched up and properly connected to hold the power. Some of my customers have forgotton to do that and started with a tuner or towing and caused some slipping. After that they have to redo the break in.

Grinding noise. The stock clutch kit and any aftermarket with an organic kit has "buttons" on the clutch plates that have a couple good features. Organic is cheap, it is soft so when you shift it slips easy so it does not grab and jerk the truck, organic does not wear the flywheel or pressure plate (very much). On the other hand, organic has a power limit because it can not handle the heat level or torque hold that a metal button clutch can.

Most already understand this, but, here goes; The engine turns the flywheel and the pressure plate all the time it is running. Between the pressure plate and flywheel is the clutch plate(s) connected to the input shaft to the tranny. When the clutch pedal is pushed in, the master cylinder on the engine firewall forces hydraulic oil down the hose (thru the bellhousing) and into the slave cylinder. The slave cylinder is like a donut that expands when you push the pedal. The expansion of the slave cylinder, which is around the tranny input shaft at the back of the bellhousing, pushes the spring fingers on the pressure plate. Pushing the clutch pedal forces the slave cylinder to push the pressure plate springs which release the pressure plate (~ 3/8" backwards) from the clutch plate. Now you can shift. If in gear the driveline runs all the way to the wheels, in neutral it is different. In neutral the impact on the tranny and the clutch still depends on whether the pedal is held in or out. If the clutch pedal is held in (if in neutral or not) the engine crankshaft, flywheel and pressure plate are still rotating but the rpms (and diesel spike) are not going into the clutch and tranny. If in neutral and the clutch pedal is out then the rpms ( and diesel spike) are passing into the clutch(s) and the input shaft (and syncros).

OK, sorry for all that. Anyhow, if you thank about that it is clear that the clutch plate has to be able to handle the torque, all of it. It is not a gear. The material of the clutch buttons, the material of the flywheel and pressure plate, and the pressure plate load level, and the size of the parts all depend on what the kit can do. How long it can last, how much power it can hold, how grabby it will be, how easy to shift, how hard is the pedal, and of course, how costly is the product. Ceramic buttons can handle 1100*F and the feramic 1300*F, organic is much less. Enough heat can trash any clutch and cause it to slip. Diesel trucks handle a lot of torque so they need a large clutch (diameter) and a decent pressure plate load as well as a good clutch plate. If it is to be used with super power for pulling 42K sled then it need a clutch plate that has significant amout of material and a heavy pressure plate to hold the flyweel, clutch plates, and pressure plates tightly together so the power can pass thru the driveline to the ground.

In the case of the SBC DD Max Con CB, the flywheel has bronze feramic buttons on the flywheel. Feramic is metal. That is where the power passes out of the engine into the clutches. Feramic holds more heat and connects better and will last longer. If the clutches wear out, they will go before the flywheel puttons do. Therefore the flywheel can be "re-buttoned" instead of re-milled or replaced. The ceramic buttons on the double clutch plates hold a lot of power. They are metal. There is a steel center plate between the two clutch plates that moves forward and backward as the pressure plate is engaged or released. The pressue plates are cast steel plates. There are heavy metal springs in the pressure plate case that hold these parts together to engage the power to the driveline.

So all of this is a fairly simple explaination. However, if all of these components are metal, and they rotate at different rpms at certain times, as in shifting or launching, what do you expect to notice different than if, for instance the clutch plates, were not metal? Metal clutch plates will hold more power, will last longer (if you pay attention to how to manage it), it will not slip, it may be noisy, it may be grabby or jerky.


Whenever I get a call from a customer I try to find out what he intends to do with his truck and how much power he wants. Stock usage and even heavy towing will work fine with an SD Max Con O kit. If you want more you can go up to a single disc with feramic clutch. It will make some noise an will have some jerks but it is a single disc kit so it has limitation. On the otherhand, if you want more power you have now choice other than a dual disc. And you will have to learn how to handle it a little differently than a stock clutch. It is more mental than physical. And it is not difficult to do.
 

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That was a real nice write-up. Almost as thorough as the install instructions!
 

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Im glad the guy that is installing mine read the instructions!

Tranny goes back in tonight....tomorrow should be a great day.
 

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Well, seems as if the bolts that attach the flywheel to the motor stick out more than the face of the flywheel causing issues with the clutch disk. My installet read the directions several times and took things off a few times to look at things again and cant figure it out. The bolts were purchased from GM and were the exact same as the ones removed. He has a call into Peter and John.......hopefully this gets resolved soon.......I want my diesel back. Hopefully its just something stupid!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
well the nightmare is over. the bolts that bolt the flywheel to the crank stuck out to far. the shop milled the heads down (like 100th of an inch) and the clutch cleared. it ended up costing me double what i was quoted because they basically had to install the clutch twice. i called peter to inform him of this issue and am waiting on a call back.
as for the cluch. it feels 100% better than the stock one. when you let it out it grabs. the is a little more noise involved. it tends to chatter at low rpm's. not loud but it is there. i cant wait to get it broke in so i can see how it really acts. ill keep yall posted with everything.
as for john (deadeye) and peter... GREAT help. they both took the time to talk to the installer to try and figure things out.
 

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Turned out to be our bad. We didn't realize that DC used allen head bolts which are much taller then the conventional box head. We ordered in new crank bolts with the box head and will be supplied with all the DD clutches now. Some may have had an issue and some may of not depending on the amount of squish to the rivets in the disc where the interference accrues.

Peter
 

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A M16x1.5x40mm hex head bolt grade 10.9 works fine! You can buy them for $1.25 or so at a good fatener supplier.

I think South Bend is going to provide them with there kits now and probably send them to the people who bought the clutch kits recently.
 

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So it appears that 4WARNED, kziggy, tysmith (apologies to others I may have missed) are *the* first folks to install one of these behind a Dmax, including the manufacturer itself?

The replacement flywheel bolts provide enough clearance to account for how much facing wear?

Bill
 

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wreckingball;1600302; said:
So it appears that 4WARNED, kziggy, tysmith (apologies to others I may have missed) are *the* first folks to install one of these behind a Dmax, including the manufacturer itself?

Bill
Sounds like it. I hope they didn't actually have to pay for the product, if they were just test monkeys...
 

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Seems as if the stock GM allen head bolts nearly clear the rivets on the clutch face. The head is 16mm on the stock bolts and the hex heads are 10mm so that should be plenty of clearance for clutch face wear.


We all had to pay for ours as far as I know.
 

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I'm pretty sure everyone paid for them. I jumped on the intro low price offer, knowing I would not have time right away to put it in, so it's been sitting on my bench, along with a few other parts.

It seems that the first couple guys to install found out the issue with the bolts. I'm hopeful that this is the only hurdle to overcome with this new setup.

Either way, if there are any issues at all, I'm certain that John and/or Peter will get it taken care of. I have NO reservations about putting it in, I just need the time... :eek::

As far as being test monkeys, all of us ZF guys are. We all started with the product that the General deemed suitable, and it didn't pan out. I haven't heard of any complaints from those running SBC gear or the Macs. Dogface1SG was the first failure I've heard of...
 

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Discussion Starter #20
its an awsome clutch. i bumped my predator to 120 and the 6 gun to level 6. i ran a mustang with intake and exhaust. i didnt launch it at all and we stayed side by side to 100mph. no slip just tons of smoke. i only have 300 miles on it... it takes a little getting used to. it def. grabs.
 
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