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Discussion Starter #1
Gentlemen (and ladies),


Ran a search on bio-diesel and didn't find the answer I'm looking for. Is it safe to just "dump" it in the tank, or are there some changes you have to make to the fuel system to set this up? Also is there anyone that's been running it for more than 20-30k miles that can give me some examples or raw data that shows how they benefited from making the switch. Finally, can you use a box on it or is it strictly for stock set-ups? As always, any and all info will be more than appreciated......Thanks, Mark
 

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Don't know if your manual says the same, but I would imagine it's close. It's the only thing I've seen on using Bio-diesel.


Quote from the Diesel Supplement for my '04:


It is acceptable to use diesel fuel containing up to 5% biodiesel (B5), but the final blended fuel must meet the same specification, ASTM D975-02 (Grade Low Sulfur), as other fuels used in your vehicle, and the biodiesel used for making this fuel must meet the ASTM D6751-02 specification.


Biodiesel is produced from vegetable oils or animal fat that have been chemically modified to reduce the possibility of damage to your fuel system and engine. Higher concentration (i.e. greater than B5) biodiesel-containing fuels or the use of unmodified bio-oils blended into diesel fuel at any concentration is not recommended and could damage your fuel system and engine. Such damage would not be covered by your warranty. If there are questions about the biodiesel-containing fuels you are using, contact your fuel supplier.


That's about all I've seen on the subject. No practical experience with it either.Edited by: Zeeb
 

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I have been running B20 for about 5000miles--truck has 7500miles. The benefit I desire is lubricity. Currently that can be attained with an additive, but when the new fuel comes in--B20 is an attractive alternative.


Its drawbacks are potential for water contamination--it very hydroscopic. It also gells at much higher temperature--not good for cold weather--although there are now antigel additives for Biodiesel from PowerService.


I just received a report from AVlube on my biodiesel supplier (B20) and it meets the ASTM 975 spec for #2 Diesel. Its ISO cleaniness code from the pump was 16/14/11--we would like at least 15/13/10 for our trucks after filtering.


The truck does run smoother--Cetane reading was almost 50--gas mileage is maybe 2% less.


I am running an oil analysis--two so far--that indicate a fuel dilution problem. However--the second reading is going down--not sure whether or not its due to the B20. Will continue to monitor with more oil analysis. As a note: All other readings on the oil report were good including viscosity. If it does not clear up--then I will stop B20 and run straight #2 and check.


Fuel dilution is a concern running biodiesel.


If you decide to try it--I suggest doing an oil analysis before and then after to see if Biodiesel caused any fuel dilution.


Ron
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Zeeb, Ron....thanks ya'll gave me the info I was looking for with raw data, I'm still teetering on what to do....but the input is greatly appreciated





Thanks a million,


Mark
 

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The other point is that as a result of the discontinuation of soy/grain Bio tax support, most bio currently being sold is reprocessed frier oil, etc.
Not the quality of the original grain bio's. Much more susceptible to microbial infection and very hygroscopic. Ron has proceeded using the proper procedures; his bio is among the best I have seen in quite a while. Generally it has such high water content is blows the test equipment up! Seriously!
George Morrison
 

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Discussion Starter #6
THAT CAN'T BE GOOD!!!
 

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Wow George, I want to hear about blowing up the test equipment. I assume you use Kjeldahl? I am really serious, as I am looking for a good way to get rid of the POS Metrohm unit I have to use. I have never heard of too much water being a problem with it, but if there is a way I am all ears.
 

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Yes it is safe to just start running it but like any change with any type of fuel it is always wise to have a extra filter on hand. I always have at least 1.


First I want to say how happy I am to read more are using bio-diesel and supporting the American Farmer. We need to do whatever we can do to support them, that is before our president sends those jobs to the Indians also. Well that being said.


I have been running b2 in my 02 for about 35-40k miles or so with zero problems. My 01 had 15-20k on B20 no problems. I run B2 all year long for that is all tha I can get at my pump. There are several d-max's around here and several large fleets of trucks running B2 with ZERO problems. I am in a position that I would hear if there were problems. I was on the bleeding edge of using this product around here.


The bio-diesel I use meets and exceed all the standards as stated above. Good point btw, just like any supplier or diesel the saying I say is "know thee supplier well".


I have said this before, be cautious of advice on bio-diesel from those that sell additives. Bio-diesel puts us in a situation where we no longer may need them. I don't run anything else in mine and it was -20 here not to long ago with no problems.


I guess I am curious where this test equipment blew also?


Also has anyone here ever had a problem with running any grade of bio-diesel? Not the friend of a friend stories, but actual situations that happened to your truck?


Millions of miles put on by Cooperative's customers and no 1 single problem. Not 1. If you have questions or concerns about anything I have said please feel free to e-mail me or post here. I am very interested in this issue.Edited by: dmaxscott
 

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I have no experience with running biodiesel in these trucks, but I have run it in my 87 Mercedes with no problems at all. (Straight B100 by the way) In fact, I have modified my Mercedes to burn straight vegetable oil as a fuel. When I can get it, I start up and shut down on B100 and run on pure veggie the rest of the time. Wouldn't recommend the vegetable oil for a common-rail system like the duramax, but the Benz seems to like it just fine.

On Edit: In case anybody wonders why I run biodiesel in the benz and not my truck, it is home-made biodiesel that I don't trust the specs on. Good enough for the old German tank, but I don't trust it in the truck.Edited by: habanero
 

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Habanero,


I believe there is a difference between vegetable oil and B100. I agree you should not run vegetable oil in the trucks--but I have researched and found people running B100 in the duramax.


The key problem is the standards on the fuel. But as #2 diesel users, we could get problems with a bad supplier that could damage our trucks also.


I would not use B100 until I see some data on our trucks similar to what has been done with some university studies with the Cumings motor--ie 50k to 100k miles of usage and then tear the engine apart and look at the injectors. In those test there were no problems, but our trucks are a different animal.


Hopefully these test will done so that the issues(if any) can be documented and the public does not have to be the tester.


My B20 supplier meets ASTM 975--which is the final spec for fuel for these trucks--as stated in our GM book--that is the spec too meet--not every diesel #2 station meets it.


Ron
 

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RonJT,

Sorry if I was unclear in my earlier post. There is a tremendous difference between B100 and pure oil. Biodiesel is composed of esterified fatty acids, while the pure oil is composed of these fatty acids attached to a glyceride backbone (usually 3 per backbone=triglyceride). To produce the biodiesel, you are basically breaking the fatty acids off the backbone and reacting them with a methyl group to form a fatty acid-methyl ester.

I use B100 to start up and shut down, since its viscosity is similar to petrodiesel, then switch over to oil when it is hot enough to have a viscosity similar to the B100.

I agree completely with your testing idea, it needs to be done. I think the United States also needs to bring biodiesel standards up to the equivalent of European standards (where biodiesel has been in widespread use for many years) and enforce those standards. Unfortunately, until biodiesel is cost-competitive with petrodiesel I don't expect much to be done. Also unfortunately I don't think cost-competitiveness will come about by a reduced cost for biodiesel, but rather an increased cost for petrodiesel.
 

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Habanero,


Excellent points!--keywords: Standards, testing and enforcement. If only our #2 Diesel was up to Euro standards....Unfortunately I agree--Biodiesel will probably only be seriously looked at when Petro becomes expensive.


Here is where the US government could help start the process--but as George pointed out--some Key tax incentives have been removed.


Ron
 

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Just this month the Senate passed the transportation bill but it is still hung up in the house!


"The Senate overwhelmingly passed a transportation bill that contains an important biodiesel tax incentive. The Senate voted 76-21 on February 12 to approve a new six-year highway spending bill that provides for road improvements across the nation"


Engr. Bill
 

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dmaxscott:


This is not the forum to slam the President of the United States; I thought it was a diesel forum.


You should have your facts right before you slam the President of the United States. He is not sending jobs to India; American busnesses are. The Indians can add 2 + 2 = 4 not 5.


You should slam your Senators for voting against drilling for oil in Alaska; then you wouldn't have to use bio-diesel.


Have a good night.


Ned
 

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Hey Ned,


The bottom line is it would be nice if there were a diesel truck that got better then 15-19 miles to the gallon. That is what we need.


We better get supporting one another before it is too late. Use Soy Bio-diesel when you can. It is money that goes to US American Farmers. I can't wait to get my 100 gallon tank back in service so I can use B2 when I need to fillup and no B2 is to be found. Plus it give me X3 filtration. Once at pump, again at tank filter, and again at truck filter. Plus I get to take B2 on the road.


I am sorry for going on and on. This is just a topic that really upsets me. It should upset all of us.


Edited by: dmaxscott
 

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Ridge Runner
Nicely put.

I am gonna start looking for a biodiesel supplier in my neck of the woods.
 

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Thanks for the website. I think there are many benifits to running this. Lubricity is the major one. Less dependance on the oil producing countries is another.


DO you find that B2 is cheaper than straight #2, or about the same? I would be interested in going up to B20, but there are not many close suppliers and I would have to have storage for 250 gallons for it to be worthwile. I am not sure if I want to store bio due to the water issues... Waterseperation filter would be a must on that tank. Would any additive help?


So what's the real reason for fuel dilution of the oil? I don't see how it would cause that more.


Good topic! Keep the info coming!!
 

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Nassdmax,


Biodiesel fuel dilution is stated by others as an issue. I have some links on studies done by University of Missouri on cumings motors and one of the things they were looking for was fuel dilution and injector coking. In those studies none was found on Indirect injected motors.


I cannot remember reading if there was discussion of the mechanism that would cause it.


In my case--I do not know yet whether my fuel dilution is due to using B20. My fuel dilution is at 1.3% and my oil viscosity and wear metals look good.


I can remember reading on a Biodiesel forum where some VW diesels had some rather large fuel dilutions--but it did not affect the quality of the oil (done through analysis). Concern was overfill of the crankcase fluid.


There was one point I do remember--it is theorized that--biodiesel--because of its higher viscosity--was making it to the cylinder walls and was not fully burned in Direct injected diesels. Also, it was noted that for better combustion, the timing should be retarded to take advantage of the higher oxygen content.


Not sure if this is the mechanism behind the possible dilution.


I will research more.


Ron
 

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I have a feeling that this used McDonald's french fry oil/biodiesel is going to be the same thing as ethanol is to gas......worthless. Don't even try to defend ethanol, because the facts don't lie. It's all politics boys. Who ever gets the most votes from their respective districts wins....regardless if it is for the good of the majority.


 
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