[hoot]

Mr. X

Airless voids? I don't think so. Show me some scientific data that backs that up. You are suggesting that the liquidless cavities are empty like outer space...

That means if a tree falls.....


"kowtowing" ??? what the heck is that? Forget the vendor BS. I say let the end users describe their experiences with the products first hand.

Edited by: hoot

 

[Mr X]

Hoot,


I think Frank Blum describes the airless bubbles with more authority than I can.


I guess when air bubble recompress they don't vilently umplode like cavities.


Could you explain why we need lift pumps to deal with air bubbles, if in fact, these bubbles are not causing any cavitation problems?

Cavitation = vapor bubbles


Mr X, There is one step in cavitation. Cavitation! There is nothing in the bubbles. No air! Nothing! That is why they call it cavitation. I posted an extensive definition of cavitation right out of my hydraulic manual over on the dieselpage. You read it along with everyone else. I am sorry I ever tried to teach this subject. I taught a hydraulic troubleshooting course to several groups of Millwrights and heavy equipment mechanics a few years ago. Everyone of them knew what happen when you plugged the inlet filter or had an air leak. Later! Frank

First Diesel asked a question and I gave him an answer. Smitty accused me of trashing a vendor when I simply described my experience with a vendor.


You have your reasons for being and I mine: Too much vendor BS was tolerated at other places. That's all.Edited by: Mr X

 

[hoot]

Frank Blum wrote:
"There is nothing in the bubbles. No air! Nothing!"

I'm thinking.... have we come up with a method of creating the perfect vacuum here on earth?


<font size="4">Suction Cavitation occurs when the pump suction is under a low pressure/high vacuum condition where the liquid turns into a vapor at the eye of the pump impeller. This vapor is carried over to the discharge side of the pump where it no longer sees vacuum and is compressed back into a liquid by the discharge pressure. This imploding action occurs violently and attacks the face of the impeller. An impeller that has been operating under a suction cavitation condition has large chunks of material removed from its face causing premature failure of the pump.</font>

VAPOR BUBBLES
<font size="5">VAPOR BUBBLES</font>

vapor.... Any substance in the gaseous, or aeriform, state, the condition of which is ordinarily that of a liquid or solid.Edited by: hoot

 

[Tsckey]

gwmayes,

I can understand the concerns expressed by those who tow in the high latitudes about Nick's filter becoming covered with ice in the winter. There would not be a problem from the front side; the thing is practically armour plated. I shielded the backside of mine very easily with a piece of plastic and a few minute's time. As for the cold itself, I don't know. The CAT filter head is not heated, but I would not expect problems at temperatures down to about zero. Below that maybe a little knitted booty would do the trick.

TC

 

[gwmayes]

Tsckey,


Last fall on a trip up to Ft. Collins.... I saw the weather maps, shouldn't have hit the road, but I did anyways. Just about the harriest trip of my life. Snow drifts, slush, wind, my wheel wells were solid ice from all the way up around the filler neck to clear up in behind the bumper with about two inches of clearance around the tires. Should have taken pictures. Solid! I wouldn't have even been able to see a CAT filter up in there. I'm serious when I say that I just may stick a filter up in the corner of the pickup box. I'm not planning on putting a toolbox there. Heck, even if I did, I would put it inside the tool box.





Mr X,


Yeh I should have added that the clever addition of a lift pump simply puts the fuel back to about atmospheric pressure and the entrained air does not float to the top in the filters. It simply stays dispersed in the fuel and passes right on through to the injectors.


Hoot,


Believe it or not, but cavitation bubbles can come pretty close to being a pretty good vacuum, ie, nearly nothing in them. However, as you note it's usually some of the fluid itself in a particular vapor phase based on "how good" the vacuum is. When those little puppies collapse they do so at supersonic speeds. What you have then is this really, really high velocity liquid etching away at whatever surface is nearby.


I was really surprised to hear that GM (or Bosch) actually changed the material in the injectors beginning in about mid '01 production. Good news for some of us. They must have been running some pretty serious life studies around the time the Duramax was introduced to realize so quickly they needed to harden up the parts. Unfortunately, they were probably doing this with super clean fuel or by now we would have seen some changes with that OEM Racor. If GM is losing a lot of $ doing injector replacements under warantee, you can bet that a change in that OEM filter will be coming pretty quickly.


Come on Racor, the data is already in (here at least)! We need a better filter

 

[Mr X]

gwmayes,


Thanks, I'll be watching to see how my CAT does up in the mountains this winter.


Some final, final, final questions about cavitation.


I think gwmayes and Frank Blum are helping us non-experts get some resolution here.


Does entrained air, in or out of solution (as in air bubbles in clear lines), cause cavitation?


I am sure that totally air free fuel would be more efficient. And an fuel/air separator may add a couple of hp and mpg's, but, will running w/o one using normal diesel with air cause cavitation damage to our systems - even when the air comes out of solution?


What damage would a lift pump prevent?


I see reports of guys running comp juice and quad with modded trannies getting low 13's and high 12 sec. 1/4 miles, w/o lift pumps.


Would a lift pump improve their 1/4's?Edited by: Mr X

 

[Mr X]

So am I right to say that the "outgassing" cavitation, rush to buy a lift pump, was a false alarm?Edited by: Mr X

 

[ShumDit]

Wow ~ there is a lot of info on the subj here. I had avoided it on TDP as it was complicated and feelings were running high w/possible undercurrents of motives. I'm no expert so I find personal benefit in the factual discussions.


For myself, I can see we try to remedy an OEM situation that most of us wish not to disturb due to warranty implications/risks. Its apparent we need a better OEM filter but the General isn't going to help. So, we add additional filtration that w/exception of water removal, the OEM is not even there. THEN we try to rationalize the courser 'chicken' should come before the finer 'egg'. Which is nice for rational discussions but keeping in mind the intent is to get effective 2micron filtration and either way wins. Also, keeping in mind the OEM filter still needs our attention due to the red (rust?) residue some have reported as well as warranty requirements.


This thread indicates a lot of good folks have done a lot of work for the rest of us to act upon as we understand it. How else could this thread have run 7pgs is so short of time. Truly amazing Hats off to all who have apparently poured their sweat and blood into this. I love this site as it seems to be a truly 'open' forum.Edited by: ShumDit

 

[CADman_ks]

I've read this whole thing (I think), and I tend to agree with gsxr1216, who posted what I quoted, 3 pages ago!


Is this not something that some manufacturer is working on? Wouldn't it make sense to just put a CAT size 2mic filter in place of the original stock one? I haven't looked at it all that carefully, so I don't know if there's room in there or not.


I thought I remember reading omewhere that the filter is unique to the Dmax. Is the reason that no other manufacturer is stepping upto the plate and doing something different????

CADman_ks

Excuse my filter ignorance here on this topic, but how come you cannot just replace the (supposedly inadequate) stock filter with a better one versus adding secondary filters and lift pumps and all that other jazz ?????? Seems like it would be a lot easier and less costly and accomplish the same job? Do other filters not fit on the stock filter housing???

 

[Mr X]

There is still not any other replacement filters available.

 

[smartfix]

gsxr1216 wrote:

GSX has a great point.. Why can you just upgrade you filter to a bigger one.. I'm going down this week to ask a few diesel shops.. I see much bigger filters around

From steve

Edited by: smartfix

 

[dmaxalliTech]

Interesting topic, reminds me of TDP! First, there is no other manuafacturs of filters to fit our OEM head. Thats why nobody has just replaced with a better filter.


Second- At this point, I think that we are missing the important stuff, getting to personal and everybody standing in a line facing the wind with full bladders, once somebody starts leaking, its gets messy...Clean fuel is the no 1 reason for all this discussion, but dont forget the other causes of injector problems....leaking at the body, leaking return line seals, I dont care whos filter you install, you wont fix that. GM knows that the early injectors were prone to fail, ever notice that 95% of injector issues were on 01 trucks?


If you want to talk about outgassing, lets meet at the local Mexican resturaunt and have some wet burritos. I think we will have properly defined it and know quite a bit about it at the end of the night. Cavitation? fancy term used by me dentist cause I eat too much sugar and drink too much Coke...I dont know who said it, but if it was an issue, dont you think Bosch would have done something by now? I often wonder if big wigs at GM and Bosch sit here and read this stuff and laugh there a$$ off at all the yuppies ( my self included) try and fix for a few hundred bucks what they have spent millions on to get it where it is..I think if you add filtration, your doing your part. If you dont like where the vender chooses to mount it, move it. Most of us have the ability to fabricate something to mount it. Guys in the south arnt worried about snow and guys in the North are worried about the satallite dish loosing signal during the Miss America pageant. I recieve countless emails asking my opinion on the whole filtration topic, I tell them why its a good idea and they all want to know which one to buy, I have NEVER reccommended a particular product, only told them what is available that I know off. I tell them how I like to see something mounted (post FWIW) and let them decide from there. The important part is the added filtration, not supporting a vender. I cant think of anything else to say so I will go and check new posts on other forums and stop back later

 

[DMAX Daddy]

More filtration is better. I picked one, am happy about it, and am able to let it go.

Beating the topic to death isnt good and starting off the new board with a tired somewhat hostile debate is counterproductive.

 

[dmaxalliTech]

More filtration is better. I picked one, am happy about it, and am able to let it go.

Beating the topic to death isnt good and starting off the new board with a tired somewhat hostile debate is counterproductive.

BINGO!!! WE HAVE A WINNER!!

 

[Tsckey]

AMEN

 

[Mr X]

All lot of highly knowledgable folks chipped in with a lot of good info and produced a very positive outcome:


A week ago at another forum we were in the midst of trying to solve "outgassing" and potential "cavitation" problems. Folks were lining up to get lift pumps.


Now, thanks to wide open discussion and minimum censorship at this site, these experts were free to cut straight to the chase and eliminate "outgassing" and "cavitation" as problems that we, the Duramax owners, should have to be concerned with.


I, for one, am relieved that except for poor oem filtration, our trucks fuel systems have gotten a new, clean bill of health.


I see that as a positive ending to an informative thread.


Therefore, I beg to disagree that this thread has been counterproductive.

 

[DMAX Daddy]

He he dont take it wrong. The thread hasnt been.

Some of the "facing into the wind with full bladders" as dmaxallitech mentioned got a little carried away in my opinion, but thats my thought.

 

[Smitty]

Well said Eric!!!!!!!


Josh

 

[TX-DMAX]

Finally---Someone has said something that makes allot of sense. I didn't know they had Mexican Restaurants in Grand Rapids MI

Thanks Eric for the input that should put this topic to rest. Well Said.

 

[gsxr1216]

There is still not any other replacement filters available.

OK let me add ignorance question part II, if nobody make a direct replacement for the stocker then why does someone not make a adapter plate to bolt to the stock filter housing so that a better/different filter can be used still in the stock location, still seems a hell of a lot easier than adding all this other jazz??? I know they make adapter for oil filters for many vehicles, and oil relocation kits, seems like a adapter would be REAL easy, maybe i will have to design one up this week!!! Plus if you were worried about the dealer trips you just unscrew it and put the stocker back on, easy job IMOEdited by: gsxr1216