[Mr X]

Lou Furr,


Most folks knows that aftermarket filters, combined with the oem filters, provide better filtration than the OEM filter, alone. And most folks know that you can install the filters in either pre or post-OEM filter configurations.


However, the main point, bullet #1, that you have failed to comprehend is that the pre-oem filters, irrespective of brand, are returning better filtration numbers than the post-oem filters.


Is this a result of George Morrison's speculation that injector pulsing or engine vibes is dragging down the efficiency of the filters? As I mentioned in my repsonse to hoot, only time and more testing will tell.


Again, both pre-oem and post-oem filters are returning results well within the standards set by George Morrision. But, for the moment, pre-oem is king of the hill.


I have no more knowledge of this than anyone else who has been following this topic. I only compile the facts supported by test reports as provided by other filter users and by George Morrison. If you have a specific problem with any of my statements then please let us know.


Razzle Dazzle? I believe BROKERS. I would require hard evidence that he is being untruthfull about his trucks before I would defame him as a liar as you have insinuated.


What about the 10,000,000 sales of Bosch common rail injector systems world-wide - just hogwash? If you think so then be my guest! Go out and get a post-oem filter, and a lift pump, and a pre-lift pump filter and oil pressure switches to activate things, etc., etc.


But don't be surprised if pre-oem filters continue to out-perform yours, or, afer 60,000 miles, your lift pump fails and your truck stalls in the middle of nowhere, or, you lift pump pre-filter clogs and you stall.


The reason I like this forum compared to others is we may voice our dissatisfaction, and state our reasons for our dissatisfaction, about any product or service that we please. There are no sacred cash cows here that management has ulterior $$ motives to protect.


I have only reported the facts - period. If that is "dissing" a product then so be it.


Finally, I would never, ever, resort to defaming others, or their products, w/o proper evidence or cause as you have BROKERS.

 

[Frank Blum]

There are not a dozen test results in yet. Both Racors are suppose to be 2 micron so it doesn't make any difference where they are. The fuel still gets filtered by both. The frame mounts are easy to do and service. They have the added advantage of a little less suction head. Too much suction head ( resistance to flow ) causes too much vacuum which causes cavitation (fuel vapor bubbles which some insist on calling outgasing) . If this is bad enough it causes drive ability problems. The bubbles carried through the charging pump (low pressure gear pump) collapsing with considerable force when exposed to load pressure at the outlet, and causing damage that will impair the pump operation and reduce its life. This is what it does to a hydraulic pump. How much damage it will do in our system if any will not be know by us for sure. The dealer is not going to tear the pumps down to inspect them. They will just put on a new one. The lift pumps have completely eliminated the cavitation/aeration/outgasing etc. Most of the above information came from one of my Sperry Vickers hydraulic manuals. Later! Frank B.

 

[Lou Furr]

Frank,


Good points I'm trying to figure out what is better , but x is confusing me with statements like 'Go out and get a post-oem filter'. Would I not get a filter and then choose where to install it?


A handfull of results yet x is yelling king of the hill for pre oem installs after compiling very limited information. Probably worked at GM compiling data for the factory filter, and quit work after the first good test result. Sounds like hands on experience would not hurt here. Theres a difference between blind acceptance, being skeptical, and calling someone a liar. Again x demonstrates his tendency to jump to uninformed hasty conclusions, and branded me as calling someone a liar. Time for a blue pill refill.

 

[Diesel Power]

I think it is safe to say that CAT, Racor, and Baldwin make great elements.


I also think it is safe to say that there are 2 basic installation methods: PRE-OEM and POST-OEM. without going out on a limb here, I'll say some people prefer one or the other and both provide a much higher quality of fuel than OEM.


Like many things in life where you locate your filter, be it pre or post, is a matter of personal opinion you base on factors that affect you and your truck. Some like POST, some like PRE...


When choosing a filter location, i would make your decesion based on others' experiences with a given location, not a "brand" of filter.


On a happier note the new plasma cut, one-piece, black powder-coated Nicktane.com brackets will be in tomorrow and I'll post a picture right here...


Nick

Edited by: Diesel Power

 

[Mr X]

Thanks for your explanation of cavitation. I do not dispute the phenomona of "cavitation" whatsoever. Allow me to add to your explanation that the application of pressure, (like in a pump or an injector), on these voids or airless cavities causes them to violently implode. And this implosion can erode metal components.


The application of pressure on air filled bubbles just makes smaller bubbles.


Still, my main questions about cavitition remain:


Given the fact that Bosch has been making diesel injectors and pumps since 1922, doesn't it seem reasonable to expect that Bosch is well aware of cavitition and has designed it systems with full regard to eliminating or minimizing the harmfull effects of cavitation?


Why, after ther installation of over 10,000,000 Bosch common rail systems in at least five major car/truck manuifacturers engines, is there not one single report to be found anywhere of a cavitation problem with Bosch's common rail injection sytem? To the contrary Dodge just abandoned their traditional injector supplier in favor of the Bosch common rail system - this after they had two years to evaluate it's performance in the Duramax.


And then there's the 800,000 combined miles of BROKERS' 2 trucks with only one injector failure between them, running on pre-oem 2 micron filtered fuel.


Yes cavitation damage can happen. But, is it happening in our Bosch common rail injection systems? So far, all we have are reports and indications of high reliability w/o a single report of cavitation problems.


In the face of such reliability why install a 60,000 mile lift pump on a world class 400,000 fuel system?


Believe me, if I see even one report of actual cavitation problems with our DMax fuel system, I will be the very first one in line for a fuel/air separator to rid my diesel fuel of air.


But I believe that Bosch has designed a system that anticipates air.Edited by: Mr X

 

[FirstDiesel]

I guess the thing that has always bothered me about this pre/post debate is the logic of installing the "better" filter first.


Seems to me logic should dictate using the stock filter to catch the big stuff and then using a finer filter afterwards to catch the smaller stuff that gets through. We already know that the OEM filter isn't that good so why not use it as a pre filter?? Then your "better" filter doesn't work as hard, should probably do a better job and last longer too.





Anyone have any input why this logic is flawed??

 

[Diesel Power]

I don't think your logic is flawed. I agree with you but I'd like to add this. CAT runs the big filter first w/o a pre-filter of larger micron size, therefore running it pre-oem is still using it the way it was designed to operate. Both PRE and POST are excellent choices in my book. Just 2 ways to skin a CAT.... no pun intended..heh.

 

[TX-DMAX]

First Diesel--I agree with you on this one. I have talked with a good friend of mine, with 45 years as a diesel mechanic, about this topic and he says, that 99% of the diesels he has worked on have a primary, and then a secondary filter, with the secondary having the smaller micron filtertation. The DMax is so new he doesn't know much about the engine, but he still states, smaller micron filter should be behind the primary filter. But I don't want the air problems I have read about with the Mega filter, and I don't want the lift pump, so I recon I will have to go with the Cat, Racor, or Mega pre unless we find a way to install them post without the air problems.


I came over to this site to get information on this subject because the other site turned into an argument over this topic, rather than good positive information, and now Mr. X---HB is over here stateing the same stuff as he posted on the other site and it starts all over again, not good. Can't we just stick with the facts and not get into a pi##en contest over who's filter and location is best and try to figure out what is good for our truck. Thanks for any help on this subject.

 

[Mackin]

Quite understandably in the Million mile rigs a screen-water seperator and 2um are used in series...
In our application recreation and commuting the ease of service with no concerns of downtime during schedule maintenance it could be classified as over kill in these diesels ...

Cummins in the B series use one filter in the Dodges that filter to 2um ... Correct me if I'm wrong ...

Mac

 

[JEBar]

My personal experience as one who has had an OEM filter cut open after 12,000 miles and found much rust in the bottom of it ... for anyone who may demand proof

pictures are available on the net. I am convinced that I need post OEM filtration. I like the fact that the OEM filter has water separation capabilities but am apprehensive about the size particles (rust or otherwise) that, without a high quality Post OEM filter, could leave there and go directly into my truck's injectors. Recognizing the fact that there are multiple high quality filters that could be mounted Post OEM .... all of which would most certainly do a good job ... I chose a Mega (Baldwin) filter. I'll freely acknowledge that I do have to bleed it every now and then. When a lift pump is available, I have no qualms about installing one. I can't help but wonder when one of these companies is going to wise up and make a high quality filter that will fit the OEM mount .... seems like doing so would have a large market and help negate this issue ... Jim

 

[Ragtop]

I agree that finer filtering should be 2nd. However, I also believe that the post OEM fuel line should be left unmodified for warranty and potential air trapping reasons. As an engineer, whenever I solve one problem, in this case poorly filtered fuel that might lead to longevity problems, I cannot solve that potential problem by creating another problem (air trapping) that will cause immediate performance degradation or failure. In my studies on this issue I found many documents that talked about dirty fuel and the need to improve its cleanliness but nothing about cavitation. I do understand the potential ravages of cavitation (boat owner) but I deem it to be minimal or non-existant on the truck. To satisfy the above criteria on my truck I installed a Racor 30u filter followed by a Racor 2u filter, both pre OEM. At my next filter change (15K miles) I will replace the 30u with a 10u and see if it is able to go as long without problems. Dual filters is a little pricey but cheaper than 1 injector and priceless for piece-of-mind. As with many issues, there are no right or wrong answers. Evaluate and analyze the data present and make your choice.


Steve

 

[Lou Furr]

Nick and hoot,


Thanks for unlocking this topic and my account so that I can post again. Too bad the pic and caption had to go though. Sorry to hear that the ignore poster option is not available. That option along with getting my account unlocked would have made my day. I'll try to be more pc the next time.


Frank,


Would you mind explaining why outgassing is an incorrect term to use to describe what is happening in the dmax fuel system? Is it incorrect to picture outgassing as a more limited form of cavitation? Or is the term outgassing just plain wrong to use here. I like the way you explain things so even a non compiler like me can understand.


Ragtop,


I'm pleased to hear that you agree with basic filtering principles but you lost me on the dirty fuel might cause problems part. You would think that someone that operates a train for a living would appreciate a clean diesel fuel supply. There is plenty of research on dirty fuel that clearly shows that the 5 to 10 micron particles cause the most damage to the injectors and pump. The same goes for cavitation in fuel systems. Try a google search to expand your views.

 

[Ragtop]

Lou,


Engineer, as in electronics design engineer, not railroad. I did, however, work 3 years as a switchman/brakeman for the Frisco railroad and can attest to the fact that the word clean should not be used in the same sentence as Railroad.


When I said "might" I was implying that there is no guarantee that the dirt will cause a problem in every case. There is some belief that GM redesigned the injectors with harder materials sometime in the 02 model year. Will the dirt cause problems? Probably, longterm. Will adding a filter post-OEM cause problems (air-entrapment)? Maybe. However, the effects of this problem...if you are one of the unlucky ones.. are immediate and fatal (truck will not run).


Obviously I believe that the fuel should be cleaner than the OEM filter can provide or I wouldn't have gone to the trouble of adding my filters. However, I will never know now if I really eliminated a problem (injector failure due to dirt) or not.Edited by: Ragtop

 

[FirstDiesel]

But I don't want the air problems I have read about with the Mega filter, and I don't want the lift pump, so I recon I will have to go with the Cat, Racor, or Mega pre unless we find a way to install them post without the air problems.


I came over to this site to get information on this subject because the other site turned into an argument over this topic, rather than good positive information, and now Mr. X---HB is over here stateing the same stuff as he posted on the other site and it starts all over again, not good.

First things first. The air. Thanks to the bad info posted at the other site by some people it's been taken way out of proportion.





I have a MEGA filter and it has air in it. It has never stopped me from driving. It doesn't seem to affect the engine at all. But I feel good knowing the air is getting trapped and I can bleed it. The filter is not causing the air. This has been proven by quite a few of the other members who did tests with clear hoses. The filter is catching it by it's design. Why is there no air in the other filters??? Because of their design. They don't have the long tube inside the filter that lets the MEGA catch it. Is this good??? I think so. I would rather bleed the filter than have it go through. As for no lift pump, I don't understand the big fear or concern here. As soon as there is an engineered kit available, I'm a technican and not a designer, I'm installing one. It's not a big scary thing and it's not that expensive and if it makes my truck run better so be it.





BTW, there are quite a few cases of people with no extra filter having air issues.





As for the last part of your post, amazing how it didn't take long to figure out who Mr. X is and why he's here now.

Edited by: FirstDiesel

 

[k1xv]

FirstDiesel:





Conventional thinking is that you would put a "coarse" filter in front of a "fine" filter, suggesting that post OEM is preferable. However, I think in this case pre-OEM makes more sense for the following reasons:


1. The 2 micron filters we are talking about here, such as the CAT 0749, are big filters designed for a flow rate much higher than that of a Duramax. These are big industrial engine type filters. Because the flow rate is low compared to what the filter is designed for, pressure drop across the filter should not be a major issue. And the total filter capacity should be much larger than the puny sized OEM filter.


2. The location of the 2 micron filter, as located by the Nicktane Bracket kit, makes it easier to change than the original OEM filter in the OEM location.


3. The price of a CAT 0749 filter is about the same as an OEM filter.


4. The OEM filter is now seeing fuel strained to 2 microns, so it should last much longer than would be the case if it were mounted before the 2 micron filter. It would seem to me, other than the water drain and primer, that the 15 micron OEM filter assembly becomes largely irrelevant as far as dirt filtering goes.


So in this instance, I think pre-OEM makes a heck of a lot of sense.

 

[hoot]

If I went pre OEM, I would probably change the OEM minimum 10,000 miles or less. I don't like that cheap filter hanging out there rusting any longer than neccessary.

The reason I say this is a Pre OEM might tend to cause you to leave the OEM in for a longer interval.

 

[Frank Blum]

Most of us are on the same page with this topic. If our OEM filter was doing a good job and we were installing another filter it would be a 10 micron pre-OEM. I don't think it makes one bit of difference which way you go. Bosch designed our system to operate properly with one filter on the suction side without the use of a transfer pump. They did not factor in the added head that we chose to install. I understand that Dodge still uses a separate transfer pump? As far as cavitation, some of our modified systems have it. Later! Frank

 

[Frank Blum]

Lou, I recently retired from a large Aerospace company. I was a mechanical foreman. Before that I was a line millwright. We had several hundred hydraulic systems. I worked on quite a few of them. I went to two Sperry-Vickers hydraulics schools back in Troy Michigan. My son is a ME with 15 years experience. His job is designing and building the 36K water cutters that wash out the space shuttle cases. Neither he or I ever heard the term "outgasing" before this topic started. It is in the dictionary though. There are a lot of places at our plant that they pull the air out of products with a vac pump. I guess you could call that outgasing but our people call it evacuating. Ragtop, what is your engineering degree in? Later! Frank

 

[gsxr1216]

Excuse my filter ignorance here on this topic, but how come you cannot just replace the (supposedly inadequate) stock filter with a better one versus adding secondary filters and lift pumps and all that other jazz ?????? Seems like it would be a lot easier and less costly and accomplish the same job? Do other filters not fit on the stock filter housing???

 

[TX-DMAX]

FirstDiesel==I didn't mean to imply the Mega Filter was the cause of the Air, I was just saying that I don't have a air problem now, that I know of, because the truck always starts the first time, cold or hot, There might be air in the system, but as long as it starts and runs when the wife and grandkids have it out, I don't care. But you have read like I have about stalling and no start after the install of the Mega Filter, so this is the reason I stated "I don't want the air problems I have read with the Mega Filter" If it traps the air, that is fine, but some trucks don't start with that trapped air and I can't afford my truck not starting reqardless of what it is.


As for the lift pump, that is just something else to worry about with these trucks and I know need the extra stress.