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Here is the link if anybody is interested


EBAY
 

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IF I WAS RICH I'D JUMP ON IT
 

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Wow! The 'no real problem' injectors have made it to Ebay with a heading like this:


ARE YOUR INJECTORS HAMMERING OR LEAKING FUEL INTO THE CRANKCASE?
Why settle for used junk yard injectors for your Duramax when you could have
8 brand new injectors in factory packaging!


It would appear that know matter how badly I want to believe this problem is blown out of context by the internet forums, I am beginning to lose hope. Maybe failures will become so common 7-11 will start carrying them too. Might as well, we can swing in and buy a Big Gulp, hot dog and an injector or two.


I have just over 50K on my truck and my eyes are fixed on the oil pressure and rear view mirror every time I drive down the road. I had about 35K when all the enterprising folks on this site and the other started exploring secondary filtration. I hesitate to add it because I do not want to be treated like a child by my service manager when I discuss warranty concerns and add-on filtration. This is the same guy that still wants to perform all the service a gasser would get (including injector cleaning and a power transmission cleaning).


Reading about Steve's (SoCal) experience with the area rep confirms my suspicions. His injector was stuck open and ruined his engine because he was towing with larger than stock tires. His dealer went to bat for him; I do not think I would be as fortunate when my time comes.


It is ironic, IMHO, that we are all willing to spend our money on improving the fuel delivery systems on our trucks trying to prevent the impending doom of substandard design, but run the risk of being blamed for the very failures we are attempting to prevent.


There should be an Eric in every service department. We are all very fortunate to have a surrogate diesel mechanic that we can talk to. The only time I ever spoke with the diesel mechanic at my service department was when I questioned the service manager about the type of oil he was pumping out of the well into my truck. No one knew for sure what viscosity that oil was, but they both assured me, through their condescending smiles, that it would be fine. I now change my own oil.


I now wonder if I did the right thing by buying a case of fuel filters (not rusty, I checked) because I did not want to spend more than $115.00 a piece at the dealer. I do not know how I will prove that I have changed them regularly if I am asked. I am worried enough to have just installed the sixth one a
 

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PERFECT
 

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Just out of curiosity, does anyone know when injectors go bad, what actually happens to them? Mode of failure, if you will. How do they fail compared to a failure on the older $30 low pressure injectors?
 

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GM's list price per injector is $530.90, but GMPartsDirect.com discounts them to $265.45.
 

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So your point is you don't want to hear the results of your test at the doctors and find out you are at risk for a heart attack or maybe cancer....keep eating the pizza and the stuff you are suppose to stay away from until the big one hits then it is too late and you can blame McD or GM LOL


I can understand the "Chicken Little" syndrome that some sites can generate, but in our case there is irrefutable evidence and fully quantified testing that supports the reasons for concern about OEM fuel filtration. To ignore it is a personal choice, with personal consequences. If you are not keeping it 100K or more, then it's probably a none issue for you, but those who expect to keep this puppy for a long time want to hear the good and bad news and take steps that have been duly documented and are tested successfully.


I am not going out and adding a cut open Campbell's soap can to the front of my tranny cooler because it "should" deflect more air over the tranny cooler and result in lower tranny temps. I did go out and add a secondary fuel filter because the OEM was tested repeatedly and found lacking. We had high quality industry standards applied to determine the results of adding an improved fuel filter system to filter the typical load of diesel fuel. Pump diesel was also tested and was shown to be very dirty.


I understand your point and am just poking some fun at those who don't believe the issue is a real one or don't believe what they read on the "Net". My point is this "Place" is different and problems with our trucks are well know and fully investigated before a solution is presented. It's unique if you consider some of the garbage that exist elsewhere on the "Net". Some of our resources here have earned a lot of respect from us and contribute immensely to our carefree enjoyment of our trucks.


There has been a lot of bashing of Fram Filters here, but the best ad campaign ever presented was "you can pay me now or you can "PAY" me later" LOL


I don't have 1000 friends with DMAX trucks to talk and compare trucks with, but with this site I do have that resource available.


We need long term testing to quantify the results of secondary filtering vs. OEM only. At some point trucks with just OEM will need injector work, trucks with secondary filtering will also need injector work. The real question is what will the average mileage be for those with and without the secondary filtering. I am betting the secondary filtering is going to add 50-75+K to injector life. Can I prove it, not yet, but the miles are racking up. We will have results down the road.


I applaude your skepticism and have my own, but there is enough "proof" on file already to convince me to err on the side of prevention.


Happy Motoring
 

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First off, let me apologize for the negative vibe - I was having a vunerable moment.



Your analogy with the doc missed my point a little. I agree that if McD will give you a heart attack you should not eat it. But look at it this way:


- Let us suppose Ronald had its own doctors (our service mgrs)


- Now imagine that our HMO would not allow us to use any other doctor (warrantee work)


- You told him that you were worried about heart attacks (dirty fuel) and wanted to start eating better (secondary filtration)


- He tells you that McD food is good enough. He goes on to say that eating somewhere else might cause heart attacks. And if you have one, his department head (area rep) and lawyers will not pay for your hospital bills.


My logic is flawed, however. I do not want a heart attack and should try to prevent one at all cost. I am sitting the fence because I don't want to have to pay for the surgery.


My frustration boils down to dealerships, really. If I had a dealer like the one Eric works for, this discussion would not be taking place. I would take the preventive measures I think are right and the dealership would look at what was done with reason and logic. They would understand that adding filtration can only be a good thing and not try to bone me if something does fail. It is truly a roll of the dice with service departments. I have owned GMs since I was kid and never needed to see the dark side of one. When I bought my truck, I never imagined I would need to negotiate with the svc mgr to make their product better and try to keep my warantee intact. All the research in the world could not have prepared me for that.


I too am carefully looking for the answer to the fuel question. I would like nothing more than to see a trend develop and respond accordingly. The fact is though, the jury is still out on failure mode, failure rate and cause(s). I remember a post from JK (I think it was on the other site) that spoke of a customer that had additional failures after adding secondary filtration. IIRC, two out of three injectors that were replaced shortly before the additional filtration was added suffered a repeat failure. These injectors were only exposed to dirty fuel for 15k before the secondary filtration was added and eventually failed with slightly less miles on them than the original injectors did that were only ever exposed to dirty fuel.


Soooo, does that mean that 15K worth of dirty fuel is enough to do them in and it is too late at that point anyway? Or does it mean that dirty fuel was not the cause? Then again, look at Broker. He runs secondary filtration from day one and has minimal failures.


I am a reasonable person and respect all the work everyone has done to figure this out. I understand George's position and admire him greatly. The Cat folks (from what I have read) are convinced that dirty fuel causes big problems. I also appreciate how everyone met the challenge and developed innovative ways to get our fuel cleaned up.


I wish there were a good way to analyze this data. For instance, I have noticed that there seem to be more failures in trucks from the north. Is this because there is dirtier fuel in the north? Are there environmental stresses that contibute? Is it because there is extended idling in the cold? Or, more likely, there are more people on the forum from the north. We have a great
 

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Well put. I myself am going to just keep up with the scheduled maintenance on the fuel filtration intervals and if any damage does happen I am hoping it happens before I hit 100,000 miles. After that I will then add secondary filtration because it is all on my wallet then. I do have a question for anyone out there that fuels up religously on a military installation. Is there anyone that has had any problems with their injectors even from fueling up on base/post? I am asking because I know how strict military installations are on keeping up with maintenance.


Jeff
 

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Maybe over time the aftermarket will improve an injector design that will eliminate the longevity issues, but not without clean fuel to start with.


I buy premium diesel from high volume stations, I pay a little more for the fuel that the cheaper guys but I know the turnover is high.


I went with a CAT Pre-OEM filter, I have a mid year 2002??????? Am I safe ???? Anyones guess, however if I get into a situation where I am out of warranty and need injectors I will flip the $4K-6K it's gonna cost because a new truck will depreciate 3 times that in the first 2 years.


Unless it turns into a money pit POS then I will keep it for a long time.





T
NY
 

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I took possession of my 02 Chev. D/A in December 01 while living in Canada. Subsequent to this I became acquainted with "other " site and started lurking.


I became aware of discussions re: injector and aftermarket fuel filtration....and followed these subjects closely. I considered doing nothing and letting the warranty "pay" for itself as it were, (and that remains to be seen) should I have an injector failure.


After obsessing for a while, I decided that it made no sense to wait to install additional fuel filtration. My reasoning was that if I were to experience an injector failure, that other fuel system components would have an equivalent amount of wear to that point of failure, not to mention the other "good " injectors. The General in all probability would'nt address "silent issues "of wear on other components and would only address the specific. I installed a NICKTANE @ about 18,000 miles.


My big concern however is the competence of the diesel techs. When I have had occasion to talk to techs, service writers. serv. mgrs etc with info collected on this site....I have to tell you that the "glazed" look in their eyes inspires little confidence. Fortunately I've had few and minor problems that were successfully addressed.


Thanks to all that contribute to this site..the diversity of experience and opinion is very helpful.


Richard








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So what happens when the injectors you got at such a deal on Ebay go to crap? How you gonna warranty them? Who is paying the 100 per unit core charge? Are they the older injectors or are they the "updated" injectors? What dealer are you gonna get to install them for you, and garuntee them? Where did the seller get them from? Considering GM cost on them is more then the price he is selling them from.....Somebody should email the guy and tell him you'll give him 1200.00 and your cores, since 800 of his price must be for cores? Sounds a little crazy to me....


Bid away
Edited by: dmaxalliTech
 

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Good stuff guys..

I called a dealership a couple of weeks ago that came right out and told me not to bother with thier service dept. with a diesel.

I think as far as dealerships go, you need to research which ones in your area really do have experience. Unfortunately, not everyone has much of a choice, especially if you break down on the road.

As far a secondary filtration is concerned, I figure as long as the filter is applicable to diesel and allows proper flowrates, I don't care what the dealer thinks. It's only a filter, not a performance mod. Give them a copy of Georgecls article and documentation on the results of the stock filter. You want to see glassy eyes
Edited by: hoot
 

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If GM wanted to be a real ass%^$# about it, every injector failure could be blamed on dirty fuel and make it our fault for getting a bad load of fuel. All hell would break lose no doubt so they have not taken this avenue so far. I think they tried that a while back in gassers and lost the lawsuit.


It all comes down to personal choice and if you accept the logic and facts presented to date. It's also like the chicken and Egg" game as to what happens first, "dirty fuel causes injector failures or mechanical design flaw/quality control, causes injector failures" or the injector is designed to handle only so much dirt".


I took the position that for $200 a secondary filter was cheap insurance and the best way to remove dirty fuel from the equation.


Your concern seems to be that the secondary filter violates the warranty which has not been proven or happend yet that I know of. Is there anyone who had a warranty repair rejected due to the secondary filter? Is it likely to happen, not absolutely sure, but logic agains says doubtful they could they get away with that one. I suppose there is a dealer out there somewhere who would reject warranty work because I have Escalade door handles! Hopefully there is only 1 of those around.


It's true that all dealers are not created equal and the real key is finding a good one with Diesel experience.


Best time to do this is just before you buy the truck, you have unlimited access to the dealers shop and personal before you buy LOL. Ask to meet the mechanics, ask them how many DMAX's they work on etc. Kind of like going to the Doctor and asking how many of these types of surgeries you do a year etc. The more the better your chances of getting your truck fixed right. Beware the guy who says "These trucks are so good we never see them in the shop"! LOL ha ha


I have a late '01 built November '00 that I bought in May '01. Suppose to be a whole list of items wrong with it, but so far, knock on wood, it' s been great. 1 tranny switch, leaking battery, broken windshield washer (I think the guy broke that when he swapped the battery), rear spring isolators and that's about it. No injector issues so far. 35K still have about 10K left on stock Firepops! Been on pure "Nictane" fuel for only 3K, so time will tell. It does run better and mileage is up about 1/2 to 1 MPG which I give credit to cleaner fuel. I usually fuel up at Truckstops like Flying J or my local Arco where they seem to pump a lot of diesel to construction guys passing through here.


To make matters worse, I have been thinking a lot lately about a Blue '04 CC S/B..........but as Nancy Kerrigan said why, why, why?
 

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dmaxalliTech said:
So what happens when the injectors you got at such a deal on Ebay go to crap? How you gonna warranty them? Who is paying the 100 per unit core charge? Are they the older injectors or are they the "updated" injectors? What dealer are you gonna get to install them for you, and garuntee them? Where did the seller get them from? Considering GM cost on them is more then the price he is selling them from.....Somebody should email the guy and tell him you'll give him 1200.00 and your cores, since 800 of his price must be for cores? Sounds a little crazy to me....


Bid away

I suspect this Ebay seller is buying these Ebay injectors at discount just like anyone can. GMPartsDirect.com is a GM dealer so GM's suggested list price has alot of dealership profit in it, just like most all auto dealership sales! If true, a discounted price can be had with simumtaneous GM part warranty coverage!


Whether or not this Ebay seller is a dealer is another question.


Buyer beware, there are good deals out there, you just have to search the internet!Edited by: Ray403Dmax
 

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A secondary fuel filter adds some peace of mind, but there is more than one injector failure mode.
 

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Just remember there is no law stating you have to take your truck in for service where you bought it. A good service manager will welcome all new customers. Just call around your area and talk to the service manager. Ask him if he has any certified/factory trained Dmax-techs working for him. Take it to the dealer that does. Supply vs.demand.
 

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I could not agree with you more, Eric. I would not touch those things with a ten-foot pole. I kind of high jacked this post a little to talk about some issues that were on my mind, sorry all.


And a big 10-4 to the service department issue, Mike! I just need to get off my can and find one around here somewhere. My service department is not really the depths of Hell. They just are trying to play catch-up with the DMax like everyone else is. The same folks originally owned both GM dealerships in my area and both are good sized. They always have more work than they can shake a stick at and don't have much time to talk about what-ifs. I feel for the guys that are back there breaking their humps. As was said before, the writers should get out from between the techs and us. There would be a lot of happy customers out there.


Has anyone given any serious effort to buy these things directly from Bosch or one of their distributors? I'll bet they are churning injectors out at capacity and the reman work (if they are doing it) probably keeps them pretty tied up as well. How long will it be before their infrastructure is upgraded and they can build enough to get ahead of demand? Do they have an exclusive deal w/the General on our injectors that prevents them from selling them directly?


And another thing to consider: If indeed the filtration system is inferior, we assume that GM will not address the issue because of liability. It has also been said that Racor won’t bite the hand that owns the pet store. I understand how one could arrive at those conclusions, but would their actions thus far be any different if they were throwing everything they had at this issue and had determined that the filtration wasn’t the culprit? Maybe they have run these injectors with clean fuel and saw the same failure rates. If they kept us all in the loop with every avenue they investigated, we would all be complaining about how they were changing their position too often and telling us different things as their ideas played out. We all read the literature and marvel at the innovation that was displayed in designing the Dmax, but won’t even entertain the idea that maybe those bright folks were right about the level of filtration. How much of the negativity felt toward GM's last diesel offerings do we automatically assign to their new diesel endeavors? Bosch and Racor are two highly respected companies. How could they have all missed the mark so badly? Isn’t it also a bit ironic that some feel Racor may be misleading us about primary filtration, but still turn to them for secondary filtration?


I wonder what Bosch thinks of the stock filtration? Surely they were consulted and had an input when this fuel system and engine were spec'd. Although they probably are making a penny or two on injectors right now…


Don’t misunderstand me. I am not arguing for or against additional filtration. I am not taking a pro/anti stance about GM or its subsidiaries.<SPAN style="m
 

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It looks like it's time for me to interject my bi-monthly comment on the D-max.


FAILURE FOR GM IS NOT AN OPTION!!


I still don't understand their position on this issue. IF there's really that big of an issue, then GM MUST step upto the plate and solve/take care of the problem. If they do NOT, they will FOREVER write themselves out of the diesel pickup market.


With the strength of the new Dodge, and the possiblity that they may get a new tranny someday, that's going to be a hard package to beat. The other manufacturers will have to make DANG sure that their diesels WILL last, and that goes for Ford as well.


Just ask yourself this: IF your injectors go south, and you have to spend a TON of money (captmal), WILL you go back to GM? Would you go back to GM even if they had a DIFFERENT motor? GM has burned TOO many people TOO many times with their diesels. People aren't gonna go back.


I'll step upto the plate right here, right now, and say this: IF the injectors go on my truck before my warranty runs out, I'll get it fixed, and be in a new Dodge in a week. I would NEVER consider another GM diesel as long as I drive diesel pickups.


We still at this point have no idea HOW MANY trucks (as a percentage) have had ONE injector failure. To me this is a serious issue that they cannot overlook...


CADman_ks


BTW, I did like the McD and Ronald as your Dr analogy. I thought that was pretty close...Edited by: CADman_ks
 
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