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2004 LB7 - half crank, no start "screech" - Dead in Water with no ideas left

Question: 
10K views 78 replies 9 participants last post by  Rickykjr 
#1 ·
Good morning y'all. I will post a link below to the "noise" that I'm getting - honestly have never heard anything like it and I'm damn-near out of ideas. My eternal thanks in advance:

2004 6.6l, 3" exhaust, ATP Idaho Rob tune from previous owner (own only a basic ODBII scanner so can't really see beyond that), CAI, otherwise pretty well stock. I was fixing on hooking up to the fifth wheel yesterday, I turn the key and get about half a second of turnover and then a screech, combined with a glug glug from the tailpipe, combined with no start.

I have manually checked every fuse in the bonnet as well as the cabin, I've replaced the starter, inspected the flywheel visually, but didn't try to turn it, etc., replaced both batteries, replaced fuel filter and water seperator last month, and last night out of pure desperation I gave it a tiny shot of ether into the turbo to see if it would try any harder to turn over. Same result. This morning I dumped everything from the seperator (aftermarket - inline in front of rear driver's tire) and the Fuel Filter (also aftermarket - single unit CAT), and while in the middle just turned the key to on real quick - got a decent amounf of low pressure diesel spilled on the driveway so I know the pump is at least pulling to that point. I have my Live scan info below.

At this point, I am stuck with no go, no ideas, I'm a couple hundred bucks in and don't want to get further if I'm not certain on the problem, the wife and kids will be screaming over my shoulder about going camping the whole time, haha.

ODBII Live Data:

"Key to Run" / "Cranking"

ECT: 55/55
MAP: 23.3/23.3
RPM: 0/192
VSS 0/0
IAT: 64/64
MAF: .9 (on) / 2.5 (Run) / 2.5 (Cranking)
FRP: 178.4/5325.8 (Is 5000psi sufficient to get things started? I should think so)

Also; I have not popped codes at all until this morning - briefly I got the following:

0900 - Fuel Pressure Regulator 1 Open Circuit.

Could this be the culprit?
 
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#2 ·
And a link to the noise...it's like it is trying REALLY hard for a half second, then "that noise." Also; the tailpipe has a distinct "glug glug glug glug" the entire time...akin to if your timing had fallen off on a spark rotor, or like it's trying to backfire.

 
#4 ·
Sure sounds like a bad starter, or maybe low voltage/amps at the starter solenoid. Sounds like the starter is spinning but the bendix spring is not being actuated to pull the starter gear on the starter into the flywheel.
 
#7 ·
I would check voltage to the solenoid terminal to make sure it's at battery voltage level. Low voltage could be caused by bad fuse or relay, or somewhere in the circuit. Pull both the fuse and relay and check them to see if working correctly.
 
#8 ·
So I checked at the ring that connects to the starter - it's getting 12.2. Are you saying I need to move back and start at the fuse block? And thank you, by the way. I really appreciate the input.
 
#9 ·
To update the rest:

Re-installed the starter, just in case. Voltmeter tells me I'm getting 12.2 to the starter solenoid so I feel good there.

I've pulled all the passenger bank glow plugs and tried firing it up on the off-chance there was a compression issue. No change.

I'm about to do the same to the driver's side. I'm still not popping ANY codes for anything - this concerns me a bit as the ECM should be indicating that sh*t is being disconnected all over the place. Could it be as simple as a bad ECM? I am so lost right now.
 
#11 ·
Holy h*ll. I think I ran it down. After much frustration I decided to start tracing the fuel rails to make sure there wasn't a crimp or the likes - found 4, not 2, wires running from a pigtail up into what appeared to be the fuel tank. When I raised the bed this morning I found a "Kennedydiesel.com Tandem Lift Pump." I don't know for certain this is the problem but I can tell you the following:
1) It buzzes every so gently in "run" - doesn't seem to be running hard enough to push low pressure fuel up.
2)With the Seperator off,Key to "run" just barely dripples fuel out.
3) Now that I'vedrained the seperator and turned the key about 400 times - I'm no longer able to prime fuel up at the manual primer in front - meaning I believe this entire time I've only had whatever fuel was left in the rails from the seperator to the CP3/Injectors. And I've nowrun out of that littlebit of fuel. Any thoughts? At any rate; I'm about to order a replacement and if it doesn't fix it - return it.
 
#12 ·
Contact John Kennedy @ Kennedy Diesel and explain the issue to him. He is one of our supporting vendors and can give you some guidance on his product
 
#13 ·
Oh awesome! I was actually drafting an email up earlier - I'll keep on with that. I would way rather by a like-for-like replacement than pulling it all out and going with an Airdog or the likes.
 
#14 ·
Ok - sent Mr. Kennedy an email asking about his opinion on the symptoms back there - replacement cost, etc. Thanks guys - not knowing the name I was a bit leary about just ordering a direct replacement when I could go with a "big name brand" but if he's a supporting vendor here - I'm happy to give him my business. I have owned the truck for just over 2 years so there's no way of telling how long that's been installed, or how hard it has been run, etc. Can't blame a manufacturer when you don't know the facts!
 
#17 ·
Well shoot. I just spoke wiht Mr. Kennedy - hell of a nice guy. He does not believe it's the Lift pumps. The engine should turn without them even being powered up. I think I might have to start facing the reality that this could damn well be a CP3 gone out. Argh.
 
#18 ·
So John suggested I disconnect power to the lift pump, then prime the absolute hell out of the system manually, crank, repeat. The problem now is: I went on that primer about 50 pumps worth of air, another 20 worth of just fuel, closed it up, and have now pumped it somewhere around 200 rounds and I absolutely cannot get that thing hard (that's what she said). Anyone ever had that before? I don't see any spillage anywhere, no bubbling between tank and OEM filter primer...The last time I changed the Seperator and Filter (two separate units, by the way, sep at rear near tank and single-unit CAT filter up front) - it took about 50 total pumps to prime without air.
 
#19 ·
Rebuild or replace the filter head.
 
#20 ·
I'll start there. Going to go cocktail this evening away and get up early to visually inspect every damn inch of fuel system tomorrow - including a rebuild on that guy if I can find a kit local in the AM. Thanks all. Much appreciated.
 
#21 ·
Make sure you find a rebuild kit that also includes the bleeder screw. The OEM is plastic and known to crack
 
#22 ·
Going by just the audio because the video moved away from the engine during crank, it is obviously mechanical. It sounds like either the starter engages and then disengages or there is little to no "engine" being cranked like zero compression ie: bent pushrods.

Turn the key and watch to see if the engine continues to turn over or not. If the engine is still turning there is a major mechanical issue. If the engine stops turning it is a starter drive and/or ring gear issue.

You didn't try a recent ether start did you?
 
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#23 · (Edited)
Going by just the audio because the video moved away from the engine during crank, it is obviously mechanical. It sounds like either the starter engages and then disengages or there is little to no "engine" being cranked like zero compression ie: bent pushrods.

Turn the key and watch to see if the engine continues to turn over or not. If the engine is still turning there is a major mechanical issue. If the engine stops turning it is a starter drive and/or ring gear issue.

You didn't try a recent ether start did you?
Indeed, I did. Maybe not enough to give it a good push… I have heard adverse effects from doing so, but I did give a single Misty blast into the turbo horn to see if I could shunt it. It was my understanding that this is a good way to eliminate the fuel system from the equation. No change after and ether blast, but I keep going back to it because honestly, I am terrified to start thinking about a Cam shaft....Diesels I’m new to, Chevy gas I’m old to. But i’ve never had to go past a fly wheel in either.

And I agree it sounds like compression. But again, I do not know the diesel format as well as the trusty old 350 or 5.3 vortec So for the time being, I’m running down everything I am semi-familiar with logically.

and yes; That belt will spin in definitely if I keep the key hammered down...Probably until I burn up the starter or running out of fuel. I’ve got probably 23 gallons Of fuel left to burn out, but only one starter, that’s a day old. Ha ha.
 
#25 ·
Something else I want to mention, just because it does seem mechanical and it’s been bothering me the last few hours… So I took this truck out to the car wash about six hours earlier than I tried starting it to this results. Car wash is closed, so I fired it back up and drove home. Six hours later I tried to start it and I get this. Does it seem likely that a major mechanical issue with her sitting overnight? In my experience that usually occurs while driving. Or after having a romp like hell out of it through mud or ice or snow or Mountain... some other major incident that caused it To happen.

Something just doesn’t feel right that a 70° light whilst sitting in a driveway, would cause a major mechanical blowout.
 
#26 ·
One thing I have seen numerous times before is people installing the stupid yes I said stupid filter adapters without removing the spring loaded check ball. Often the truck will not have much of any power and it should be obvious, but worth noting. The smartest and most trustworthy guys in the fuel system business recommend running the OE filter whenever practical.

I would remove the adapter and install a quality OE filter especially if you did the adapter install and don't remember taking apart the head to remove the ball and spring. The adapters do not have a provision to push the ball out of place like the filters do.

I have a full day planned today so I'll probably only have email access. I don't do much forum stuff on my phone.
 
#28 ·
Hey guys;

Did you another video while cranking. You get a good luook at the works and better audio. If I'm not mistaken;

1)Because it continues to crank, this would rule out Starter, flywheel, camshaft, correct?
2) The FRP on my OBD shows 250 in "on" and just between 5000-7000psi when cranking. That is about 20,000psi shy of needed PSI correct?

I did bypass the Water Seperator, rebuilt the Fuel Filter Housing, I bled the hell out of it and primed it hard. Tried to crank, came back to a soft pump. Repeated this about 5 times and I'm still soft on the plunger. I HAVE HAD the KD Pump disconnected this whole time, so all of this is taking that out of the equation. I might try again later tonight with it plugged back in (power), but I don't see where those low-pressure PSI's are going to help at this stage.

Here's the new vid if you want a closer look/listen. I REALLY appreciate everyone's input here. I owe you guys big time. If I can't come to some type of reasonable home garage conclusion by tonight I'm going to just have to take it in. I'm not stoked about that.

 
#29 ·
You'll need a scanner that can give live data showing Actual vs Desired fuel pressures to help you determine things better.
If you can find access to a Tech II, even better
 
#30 ·
Looking for one locally. What a sh*tshow. It's unbelievable to me that I'm the first guy who has ever had this noise, and the Internet in history. (and trust me: I've been to the absolute abyss of internet searches in the past 5 days for a "similar no start.")
 
#31 ·
If you're getting 5000 lb while cranking, that's enough to start but not enough to drive in varying conditions. The noise still sounds like starter noise to me, but as long as the engine is being cranked, that's the important thing for now. Would be nice to know if the cam and crank sensors are posting signals.
 
#32 ·
I can't disagree with you, but it's going. I've checked power, I've reinstalled it twice, and it's cranking. I am just so baffled, and to be honest for work and sanity sake I may have to go just give up and let ashop have it. I've never taken a vehicle to a shop. Ever. GMs, Toyotas, BMW'S. Ive never had one die on me, or had someone else's hands in it i'm really frustrated at facing my first jaunt.
 
#37 ·
So I've bitten the bullet and ordered a OE Hitachi (ACDelco) starter. I'll swap that in, take the one I just bought back, give the batteries a good full charge and try it again. Coincidentally; I only went with the one I went with because I was in a hurry to get back on the road they did not have an AC Delco in stock locally. I'm going to absolutely lose it if that does the trick. The more I read about the early generation starters, the more I'm convinced I could have put one in that simply isn't doing the trick.
 
#38 ·
That’s a broken camshaft gear no compression issue if I ever heard one.pull your glow plugs and check for compression.im not sure the exact issue but I can tell there is no compression.are you low on coolant or coolant In the oil?
 
#39 · (Edited)
Hey Super - coolant level looks good, and upon upper inspection and draining a bit out below: looks good (it was part of my maintenance at beginning of last month) Oil was also changed out on 4/15, but I let it loose and replaced filter + 10 quarts again when this started just to check. So far as I can see: all fluids supplies are carrying only their own fluids.

If I pull the belt and give the crank a good "shimmy" left-to-right, up-to-down, in-and-out, will that be indicative of a broken crankshaft? I know left-to-right could be worn out pins, but in-and-out would be a sure "bad deal" yes? What about cam/ring? Is there a good way for me to get into that with my little mini-shop shadetree mechanic tools?
 
#40 ·
Pull the glow plugs and check for compression first,the crankshaft is fine because the belt is turning.
 
#41 ·
Ok. I do not have a gauge for that. I'll start looking.

I did pull the "new" Reman'd starter I bought. Here's a photo of the FLywheel, or Ring Gear as it were. I also took some photos of the starter. This is after about 40 cranks. Just for a look. The GM OE starter should arrive tomorrow. I'll feel better about having that in at any rate.
 

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#42 ·
It’s not the starter.you don’t need a gauge.pull the glow plugs and have someone crank it while you put your finger over each hole.if it won’t blow your finger off it’s not got compression.
 
#43 ·
Oh sweet. Yeah so I did that early on Saturday. Actually pulled one at a time and held a piece of paper in front of it to see if any "junk" fired out. All of them blew a good enough mist of air out to blow the paper out of my fingertips. I don't know if it was "enough" compression but it was fairly violent.
 
#44 ·
You need to put your finger firmly over the hole and crank it.it should blow your finger off.like you shouldn’t be able to hold it in the hole.
 
#47 ·
I think you may be in to it.that would explain the fuel pump having pressure.broken down in the cam gets my vote.
 
#48 ·
I’m not a diesel genius, but I know my way around a motor. I wrench all my own vehicles, 04 LB7, 2012 LML, and 87 Turbo Regal. I thought the same as Kennedy and sideswiped that your cam is not spinning early on. The thing I DON’T understand about that though is the first couple of seconds you can here some compression, but then it stops. I think there’s a disconnect between the crank and the cam. The only way to know for sure Without digging in the motor is to check compression. You can usually “borrow” one from O’Reilly or auto zone. For now I’m going with my gut and saying the cam is not spinning (or jumped time somehow). Disclaimer - I’m not a pro. Just want to recommend really cheap attempts at figuring out your problem. Edit - also see if you can get a socket on the crank pulley bolt and turn it by hand. The motor should NOT turn over easy with 18.5:1 compression ratio. I think you’ll know.
 
#52 ·
I did turn it over (not easily) to check teeth in the ring gear early in. I just can't spend another day in the driveway pissing and moaning, haha.
 
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