Questions on 700R trans

Mercfan · Nov 10, 2011

Contemplating a diesel transplan (6.2L) into my '95 Toyota Land Cruiser. Found a beefed up 700R trans with a custom adapter mated to a Toyota Land Cruiser transfer case - that would mean a lot of hard work already done for me.

He had a V8 gas engine on the front of this trans: a 400 Small Block tuned port injected with over-sized injectors and high flow Edelbrock fuel pump from a Camaro. Here is a YouTube link: http://youtu.be/ucli8ZtzxHw

He wasn't sure if the 6.2L would fit that trans, so here are some questions:

1) Was there only one bolt pattern for the 700R trans, or is there a chance the bolt pattern he has on his trans may be slightly different (or a lot different) than those bolts in the 6.2L engine that I'm eventually going to purchase?

2) How well would a built up trans for a Camaro do behind a 6.2L diesel engine?! Is there anything specific that I should ask the Trans shop that did the build for him to get an idea on the robust-ness of it?

3) Would I need to get a low stall Torque Converter for a diesel!? Where would I get it and how much would it be (for planning purposes)?

Thx,
James

BigMike8504 · Nov 10, 2011

1) Yes the transmission will bolt up to the engine no problem.

2) If it held up behind a built 400 sbc you wont be able to kill it with a 6.2, no chance.

3) You will need a diesel torque converter for your application, the one that you will get with it will probably be a stall converter anyway so it will be of no use to you. You will also need a diesel governer for it. AND you will probably want a lock-up converter if you plan on driving it on the street, will need the solenoid and a universal lockup kit from summit or jegs. You will also need a the diesel specific Throttle Valve Cable for your diesel.

All that sounds expensive, but the highest part will be the converter, and it will be around 150 or so. Hope this helps, Mike

Mercfan · Nov 10, 2011

BigMike8504 said:
3) You will need a diesel torque converter for your application, the one that you will get with it will probably be a stall converter anyway so it will be of no use to you. You will also need a diesel governer for it. AND you will probably want a lock-up converter if you plan on driving it on the street, will need the solenoid and a universal lockup kit from summit or jegs. You will also need a the diesel specific Throttle Valve Cable for your diesel.

Man... and I thought this was going to be a slam dunk... but it shows that I'm really lacking a lot of knowledge here. I thought the 700R trans already had a lockup converter with the solenoid, etc.... it doesn't?!

I didn't realize that a diesel specific TV cable would be necessary. Why is it different for gas/diesel?!

Silly questions, I know - sorry.

P.S.
I've asked what he's wanting for the trans/adapter/xfer case combo - I'm waiting to hear back from him. How much should I expect to spend for an already rebuilt 700R trans for a diesel with a decent warranty?

BigMike8504 · Nov 10, 2011

Some do and some dont, they usually omit the lockup stuff on a high performance transmissions. They can also setup a trans to lockup hydrualically if you choose to to forgo the wires. And the diesel specific TV I have no idea what the difference is, Im sure somebody will chime in on that.

Mercfan · Nov 10, 2011

Sounds like messing with that that trans may not be worth the hassle... was looking for 'plug-and-play'... it don't seem like it.

UPDATE: local guy just quoted me $570 for a rebuilt trans for a diesel truck - he can setup a hydraulic lockup and a custom TC with lowest stall they provide. He has 6 mths warranty on it.

koots · Nov 11, 2011

I doubt lockup was deleted, as this didn't sound like a balls out race car to me. The governor doesn't need to be changed, as it only affects full throttle shifts, but even so they can be adjusted with modifications. Be more concerned with the TC and stall speed.

This is just my guess and is in no way from actual experience with these transmissions.

jdemaris · Nov 12, 2011

Mercfan said:
Contemplating a diesel transplan (6.2L) into my '95 Toyota Land Cruiser. Found a beefed up 700R trans with a custom adapter mated to a Toyota Land Cruiser transfer case - that would mean a lot of hard work already done for me.

I'd check the date-code on the trans and would not touch anything built before 1988. Newer is even better. The 700R4 (later called the 4L60) went through many changes and upgrades. Some you can retro into older tranmissions and some you cannot. There are too many changes to list over the years, but by 1992 the trans was pretty much perfected. Lockup is different. Seals are different. Pistons are different. Etc.

I just rebuilt a 1991 4L60 for my 86 K5 Blazer with turbo 6.2. I blew up the original 1986 700R4 that was in it and came to the conclusion it wasn't cost effective to try to build it up. The early 700R4s have different splines then the later ones and later torque converters won't fit them. Mid 80s lockup was allowed in 3rd and 4th via pressure switches, whereas newer units only have a pressure switch for 4th lockup. The 1991 4L60 trans I pulled out of a diesel 4WD Suburban used a computer and electronic RPM sensor to provide lockup in 3rd, which I did not retrofit into the 86 Blazer.

The possibilities are almost endless for upgrades. Many HD builders use the 5 gear planetarys from the heavier 4L65. I did. I used a 6 lug low-stall lockukp converter and had a carbon-fiber clutch put into it.

A diesel converter isn't just about low stall speed. In fact, it has the same stall speed as often used against 305 gas engines. But there are other differences, and they also come in 3 lug and 6 lug.

6.2 power and torque is not the issue since it has the same power as a 305 gasser. The 700R4 (4L60) design is (or was) the issue. It got upgraded almost every year since 1982 and wasn't worth much until 1987-1988. Got even better towards the end of production.

At the least, I'd ask for the date of that trans and a list of exactly what was done to upgrade it.

Mercfan · Nov 12, 2011

Good stuff - thank you very much jdemaris

countryboy90 · Nov 12, 2011

as for the diesel governer. next spring i shall see if you do need a diesel spefic governer for sure. i have a gas governer in my 700r4, but the shift kit i got and new springs for the governer that should off set the difference in weight from the different weights of the different governers. to those who would like to check theres i have the info for what governers are what. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=432986

koots · Nov 12, 2011

Just for clarification on some of the years, 86 was the year they first underwent an upgrade and most builders won't touch a core any older. The ideal transmissions are th 89-93 700R4/4L60s.

If you're gonna rip through the whole trans anyway and replace the majority of what you find...then any 86+ transmission will work fine. The things that were changed for the newer transmissions would probably be upgraded during a performance build anyway so its not absolute that you have to have a newish trans for it to last.

jdemaris · Nov 13, 2011

koots said:
Just for clarification on some of the years, 86 was the year they first underwent an upgrade and most builders won't touch a core any older.

The 700R4 got upgrades almost every year it was in production.

As for 1986, the entire valve body is different that in the later years. It has 3rd and 4th clutch pressure ports for lock-up. From 1987 and newer, an aux valve body was added and cannot be back-fitted to the 1986 case.

1982 sprag clutch change, many lube ports changed, overrunning clutch changed, input sun gear changed

1984 - totally new input housing, new 3rd-4th clutch setup, turbine shaft rings changed, oil pump cover changed, torque converter input shaft diameter changed, new reaction sun gear

1985 - new oil pump assembly, new reaction carrier with new thrust washer design

1986 - new low-roller clutch assembly, new 1-2, 3-4, and forward accumulator pistons

1987 - some versions got an electric speed sensore added to operate anti-lock brakes, never over-run clutch hub, new heavier forward sprag assembly with 28 elements instead of 26, aux valve body added, changes to the 2-4 servo, low-reverse oil passage changed, low-reverse clutch pack changed, 3-4 clutch design changed,

1988 - new valve body that does not backfit, 3-4 clutch changes, trans-case-hub changed, 4-3 pulse switch eliminated, governor gear redesigned

1989 - another new valve body, new design clutch piston seals, new low/reverse clutch support

1990 - new design 2-4 brake band

1991 - new design 3-4 clutch parts, new design output shaft and new type lube seal

1992 - new calibration valve body, 3-4 accumlator spring eliminated, 1-2 accumulator spring inverted

1993 - new reverse input housing. Will not back-fit 87-92, new pressure regulator valve, new 3-4 clutch assembly, new clutch apply ring,

After 1993, many upgrades used in the 4L65-E are used to improve the 700R4 (4L60) - like molded rubber seals/pistons,, new sun shell and bearing, 7 clutch pack for 3-4, 5 pinion carriers, etc.

Diaric · Nov 13, 2011

I will guys. nice to see J back :thumb:

Diaric · Nov 13, 2011

sun shell

Mercfan · Nov 13, 2011

Diaric said:
sun shell

Thx DIA - can someone provide a short summary of the main purpose of a Sun Shell does in a trans?! Must have something to do with the Sun Gear, perhaps.

I'm curious, because when I was talking to a trans rebuilder here locally he was recommending a Sun Shell upgrade for the diesel trans - he said it would make the trans handle a lot more torque.

dsimonl · Nov 13, 2011

I am so happy to see JDEMERIS back!! I've gone through the archives over the last year and read almost all his posts. We are fortunate to have such a great resource.

legendman · Nov 13, 2011

2nd that, lot's of good info.

JDEMERIS what do you recommend for a rebuild kit?

farmer0_1 · Nov 14, 2011

i did our 85 6.2 suburban 700r4 a few years back and even the -1 transgo sure made it shift alot nicer. before it always didn't downshift at a rolling stop. i treat these trans pretty easy but i get 100k on them before they need looked at. and mine are all pre 87. i haven't been on here to much lately but nice to see you all.

smackzed · Nov 14, 2011

Holy smokes... not only jdemaris back but farmero1 as well. Who's next? High Sierra??

Diaric · Nov 14, 2011

smackzed said:
Holy smokes... not only jdemaris back but farmero1 as well. Who's next? High Sierra??

High Sierra pops in the lounge every few months and chats. He's living the dream in Florida

smackzed · Nov 14, 2011

Sounds like margaritaville compared to the places I've been to in Michigan.

legendman · Nov 15, 2011

This is awesome info thanks jdemaris

sootlife · Apr 7, 2012

torque converters

i just had my 84 k10 diesel 700R4 rebuilt but having a hard time finding the correct torque converter for my truck ive purchased and returned two different TC's! i measured the the splines large spline 35mm (27 spline), small spline 22.5 mm, i believe i found one on hughes p/n gm21lxfm but it is 400$ but not even sure its the right one? i saw one of you guys saying they run usually around 150$ if so where can i find one? and if theres an original part # for them?

happypunch · Apr 7, 2012

sootlife said:
i just had my 84 k10 diesel 700R4 rebuilt but having a hard time finding the correct torque converter for my truck ive purchased and returned two different TC's! i measured the the splines large spline 35mm (27 spline), small spline 22.5 mm, i believe i found one on hughes p/n gm21lxfm but it is 400$ but not even sure its the right one? i saw one of you guys saying they run usually around 150$ if so where can i find one? and if theres an original part # for them?

you should talk to the guy who rebuilt your transmission. someone could have changed the input shaft for the torque converter so it could be different than what a stock setup would have been. but i would not pay $400 for a torque converter! is there a transmission supply shop near you? i paid $100 for mine and the heavy duty one would have been $150.

BigMike8504 · Apr 7, 2012

Mine is a lockup converter and it was $150. If your transmission has the two step downs on the input shaft its a lockup transmission. I would get your local yellow pages and call the local transmission part supply companies around you. You might can get one from summit racing or maybe rock auto.

Questions on 700R trans

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