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Old 01-24-2008, 08:58 PM   #71 (permalink)
Mad Max44
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whaler22 View Post
I've learned plenty the hard way, including a couple expensive lessons delivered by smart car dealers when I was younger. Thank goodness most of those spankings came when the dollar amounts were much smaller...

Over the last thirty years I've learned a lot about buying cars, boats and trucks, some from the inside. I've also met lots of great people who earn an honest living selling vehicles, so this is not meant to be an indictment of everybody in the car business. In fact, lots of nice folks make plenty of money doing business honestly, but the vehicle sales business also attracts a lot of lying rip-off artists -- and I have met several of them recently while helping friends buy cars. Those guys and some recent confusion here motivated me to try this. I hope what I have to share here will help some folks separate the BS from the truth and negotiate a good, fair deal.

Some of this will be "old hat" for many of you guys, I know, and I'm certainly not God's gift to vehicle purchasing, but I thoroughly understand how the money works on these deals, and I've done a lot of successful negotiating and purchasing professionally and privately, so I think I can help some of the folks who have been confused about pricing and terminology in other threads I've read. I hope this helps.

The government requires auto dealers to affix a factory window-sticker known as the "Maroni-sticker" on all new cars. The sticker provides a variety of information including the MSRP (manufacturer's suggested retail price). Unless you're looking at a one-off or a very limited production car like a Ford GT-40, it's the only sticker that matters.

Some of the super-slick dealers dealers have started printing "mimic-stickers" with the same borders, coloring and formatting as the factory sticker, so they can put the two together on the window to create the impression that their "ADM" sticker (additional dealer mark-up) has factory legitimacy. It doesn't. Disregard that extra sticker altogether unless it lists accessories you actually at a price you conclude is fair after researching it. (This is sometimes where the dealer will advertise the $600 wheels he'd like to sell for $2,500, the $24 under-coating he plans to sell for $199, the $14 pin-stripe he expects to sell for $199, and so on. I recommend you ignore all of it, and plan to get all that stuff later if you want it.) (There are lots of ways to wrap aftermarket accessories into the car deal/financing, but that's another topic.)

Take a pad and paper to the dealer when you go to shop trucks, as you'll want to write down stock numbers, equipment and pricing information. Make sure you write down the FACTORY MSRP, as that's a number you can use to shop similar trucks at distant dealerships to make sure you're really comparing apples to apples. It's also the number you'll need to figure the value of the factory holdback: On Chevrolets, the factory hold-back is 3% of the MSRP -- so you'll multiply the factory retail price times .03 to get it. That means a Chevy truck that retails for $50,000 will have a $1,500 factory holdback - a significant amount of money. (This is the amount retained by GM and returned to the dealer in batches well after the sales are final. It doesn't show up on any of your paperwork either, and the dealers don't like to talk about it -- as though that profit center is private.)

You'll also want to be armed with the "invoice" cost for the vehicle you wish to buy. This can be found at www.edmunds.com and other similar sites. The invoice on a Chevy truck is about 89% of the MSRP, but it varies slightly depending on how the vehicle is optioned, as many options include a larger profit margin. To get your estimated price as close as possible you'll want to use the "build your vehicle" option on Edmunds and select all the proper equipment. Then compare the invoice and retail costs you see. If you divide the invoice number by the retail number on your screen you'll be able to get a rough percentage you can carry with you as you shop -- something like .89136 - which you can them multiply times the MSRP of every vehicle you consider. (The 89% figure is a pretty good rule of thumb for Chevy today.)

The next piece to get from Edmunds is "incentives". American manufacturers generally offer some incentives, usually in the form of "customer cash", "rebates" or subsidized (reduced) finance rates. We also occasionally see "marketing support". Whatever the label, if the dealer is getting additional money on each transaction it needs to be figured as reduced cost in your vehicle. I just checked a couple hours ago and found that GM is offering $2,500 in rebate support for my truck, a 3500HD Crew Cab Duramax/Allison package. The support jumps to $3,500 for the same truck with a gasoline engine, so you can tell which one is selling better ;-)

Here's how the numbers from the above example blend into a current truck deal: The factory sticker on the truck shows an MSRP of almost exactly $50,000 and there is a matching ADM sticker showing a $2,500 "market adjustment" (with no additional options). According to Edmunds.com, the invoice on the truck is $44,500. After the $1,500 factory holdback and the $2,500 rebate are subtracted, the actual dealer net-net cost on the truck is $40,500. The factory was trying to sell it for $50,000 and the dealer was trying to sell for $52,500. If I wasn't in a hurry, and there were other trucks like it around, I'd offer $41,500 and be prepared to walk away if they didn't want to sell it for that. There's nothing wrong with offering a guy a $1,000 net profit, but they'll squeal like you were asking to cut off a right hand. Some will even act offended, a tactic I've never understood. If he hasn't spent all day with you, and he can get another truck just like it next week, your chances of buying the truck are pretty good -- at least out here. And if he lets you walk away without the truck, so what? You may have to pay more, but you should NEVER have to pay more than $2000 total profit or, in this case, $42,500.

Here's another tip. I never tell folks anything like, "I'll never pay more than ____!!" Because, the fact is I WILL pay more than that if I have to -- because I want/need the darn truck. I don't engage questions like, "What do you want your payment to be?" I'll figure out my own payment -- I'm telling them what I am willing to pay. When we've agreed on price we'll talk financing. (There's a reason they want to talk payments first.) I just politely say something like, "You know, I think what I'm offering is fair and that's all I'm prepared to pay right now. I will buy the truck right now for that price, but if it's not enough profit for you fellas I understand. If none of the other dealers will sell me that truck at that price I'll come back to you ready to pay more!" That protects my credibility, because I'm not "bumping to pay more after I said I wouldn't" and it sets me on the course they fear most... I'm telling them I'm ready to buy NOW and my next step will take me, the idiot customer, right over to the other hot-shot-car-sales group so they can take a shot at me. If they're every going to be willing to sell the truck at that price it's going to happen before you leave. If it doesn't happen, you haven't wasted your whole afternoon at the dealership and you've learned something.

When I bought my last Dodge truck I went through the above exercise and found that the MSRP on the Dodge truck I wanted was $11,200 above calculated cost, so I offered them $10,200 below their sticker price. The salesman looked at me like I was nuts. He returned with a "Sales Manager". ("Manager" is code for 25 or 27-year-old guy with two years experience who is supposed to be the deal "closer".) The "manager" asked me one stupid question after another like, "How are we supposed to pay our power bill?" Then he followed me out to my truck sharing his wisdom on life, high finance, and every other load of BS he'd been taught to shovel. I left him my number and told him to call me if he changed his mind. He assured me they wouldn't change their minds because my offer was "$2,000 below their cost"! The next week another "manager" called me and said they'd accept my initial offer, so I went down and bought the truck. (The manager who lied to me was nowhere to be found when I went to pick it up.)

My recent Duramax purchase was more honest and friendly. The guys at the Chevy dealership were great. I made my offer and then I followed the sales-guy back to the manager's area so I could just talk to him without my 20-year-old sales-guy/interpreter. I shook the manager's hand, made my pitch, told him I didn't want to meet a herd of 25 year-old "managers", and went to buy a Coke. The salesman was back at his desk in five minutes with the paperwork and I was out of the dealership having spent less than 90 minutes from beginning to end, including the test-drive. That was only a few months ago and I've since sent them two other sales, because the were honest, fair and easy to work with.

Here are a few other tips/reminders:

1) Even if you plan to pay "cash", don't say it. Some guys are under the mistaken impression that new car dealers would rather have a "cash" sale. That's wrong. The reality is, cash can be a security hassle to deal with and the dealers often make more money when you finance. I'll give you an example to explain.

I worked for a boat manufacturer for a while. One of my jobs was negotiating with the engine manufacturers for volume pricing. During the boat-shows and sportsman's shows I would help the dealers by working the shows and talking motors/engines/boats. The dealers ALL offered financing and they WANTED buyers to use it, because the dealer was paid one "point"(percent) for each quarter-point between the dealer's buy-rate on the loan and the buyer's contract rate on the purchase. So, the dealer might get a promotional rate from the bank at 7% and finance a buyer at 8.99% -- not bad on a 15 year boat loan. With one-point-nine-nine (2) percentage points between the buy and sell rate the dealer made EIGHT percent of the amount financed. If the guy borrowed $40,000, the bank would write the dealer a check for $3,200 to "buy" the contract! Sometimes the dealer profit on the financing was higher than the profit on the sale...

That kind of interest margin isn't typically seen at new car dealers anymore, but they DO make money when they finance people, and they make a boat-load on everything else that's in the "Mr. Finance" office, like the $30 fabric treatment they sell for $499, the extended warranties with the 65% margin, the "theft-proof-glass-etching" and all the other crapola listed above. That's where the phrase "nothing but net" comes from. (Well, not really, but it sure fits :-)

2) Remember, the math will change if your dealer has to "locate" a truck at another dealer and then go get it. If they just trade trucks of similar value the only additional cost is driver/transport time -- a "go-get-fee" of a couple hundred bucks -- but if he has to buy the truck from another dealer, the other dealer is going to keep the holdback, so that profit-center will be lost from your deal.

3) Car "leasing" is just another financial "vehicle". If you lease, which is a bad financial plan for 95% of the people who do it, you can still negotiate the purchase price of the truck. The purchase price is the lease "cap" - but the rest of the lease plan is too complicated to discuss here, and very easy to get burned in. If you can't expense the lease, please ask your accountant/bookkeeper to talk you out of leasing...

4) I've been told the rules/plans discussed here would not work in New York and Connecticut -- because they don't have many trucks and people are not willing to travel to get them out there. It certainly does seem different there. Heck, our county is the size of Connecticut and we've only got three GM dealers, the smallest of which probably has at least 40 or 50 trucks in stock, and a two hour drive north will bring us to at least three or four GM dealers EACH with at least 100 trucks in stock. I don't have any experience trying to buy a truck in a place where they literally have to look to another STATE to locate a one-ton truck. (That's what happened to my brother in law last summer when he had to replace a truck as he was passing through Connecticut en route to Vermont.) For people who live in a place where trucks are hard to come buy, if you feel like a week-long adventure, I'd suggest calling Dave Smith Motors in Kellogg, Idaho. He's on the internet and he's got an 800 number. He sells between 1,500 and 3,000 rigs per MONTH -- and he sells at fair prices that take only a few short minutes to get to. I've beaten his pricing by a few hundred bucks, never more, using the method described above, but he's a GREAT option for folks who don't want to hassle with all this. His sales staff will walk you through what you want over the phone and give you a firm quote. The odds are good that they have what you want in stock. They also have every manner of customizing shop on premises from lifting to stereos to winches/bumpers/wheels and tires -- even custom interiors of every variety. They do a HUGE business selling to out-of-staters, so they send shuttles to the nearby airport several times per day to pick customers up for truck deliveries. (I have NO relation to Dave Smith Motors, and I don't send neighbors there because we can do just as well here, but I'd buy from him if I was stuck in a state where the dealers tried to hold me hostage for an extra $2,500 or $3,500...at least I'd get a free trip out of getting my new truck.

Here's my most fundamental rule: They make new trucks every day and all three American manufacturers are prone to over-produce. GM has been over-producing to meet the need for as long as I can remember. So you can always walk away and buy from another dealer on another day. My worst decisions have been made when I was tired and worn down after a day wasting away in a dealership. Don't do it. LEAVE and think it over free of the pressure and noise. If you still want it, and you're willing to step up to their price, fine - give'em a call. But if you're prepared to walk away you wont be subject to all the mental games the play on you in "system-house" dealerships, and you'll be less likely to agree to something you'll regret later.

I hope some of this is helpful to some of you - and Good Luck!
Whaler22, What happens to this formula when you have to order the truck and have a trade in on the east coast where there's not many loaded DRW?

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Old 01-25-2008, 05:25 AM   #72 (permalink)
Whaler22
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Max44 View Post
Whaler22, What happens to this formula when you have to order the truck and have a trade in on the east coast where there's not many loaded DRW?
Well, trade is the same wherever you are. The trade has a value -- a real value -- wherever you are. The trick is figuring out what that really IS. If you have a friend in the car business who pays for one of the computer subscription services he can tell you what vehicles like yours have been selling for at auction over the last thirty days. That, and the blue book and/or NADA values are what they'll use to calculate the value when you go to trade. That will determine what they're really going to be willing to pay for your trade. Of course, if they're selling you a new vehicle too, they'll be more than happy to play the old money sliding game -- where they slide some of the profit in the new vehicle to create the appearance of paying more for your trade. I hate that. I want to deal in real numbers, but the fact is, sliding money back and forth works for them most of the time. How many times have you heard somebody say something like, "Boy did I get a great deal! I bought the new truck for dealer cost and the guy gave me only $2,000 less than I paid for my truck brand new two years ago!" That might be a good story to take home to the little lady, but it's complete baloney... The dealer simply took five or six grand off of the new truck profit and used it to inflate the trade value showing - obviously. Perfectly normal, bright people bite on that all the time -- because they want a new truck and they need to feel they did okay on the deal. (One guy here PM'd me about how he just goes directly to the manager, says "What's your best price?" and pays it. He swears that's the way to get the best deal. I could well be wrong, but I'm betting he's been hosed out of an extra $2K on every trade for years...) Like I said earlier, every guy thinks he's a great car negotiator, but you never really know if you've cut the skinniest deal unless everybody else let you walk away for $100 less than you ultimately paid. I don't want to work that hard anymore. I just want a good deal. They ought to be able to make a living too -- as long as they're being honest and providing a good service

Obviously, you're always better selling your old truck on your own. You can usually clean it up, and sell it for $1,500 to $2,000 over the "ACV" (actual cash value) of the dealer trade fairly quickly. Still, for some of us, for one reason or another, that's not worth it anymore, so we want to trade.

I usually look at the Kelly Blue Book "trade" number and assume that's where the dealer will be, give or take a few bucks. That number is usually significantly below what the dealer KBB programs show as KBB "wholesale", by the way. Remember, the Kelly numbers may be WAY off too. (They're always off on the retail numbers, because those are not derived from selling prices. They're just dealer asking prices, and many of them have no shame: I regularly see KBB retail numbers on 2-year-old trucks that are as much as $2,000 higher then I paid for the new truck!) They other KB numbers are only a starting point. Sometimes close, sometimes not. (In 2005 Chevy Trailblazers were selling at auction out here for as much as $11,000 and $12,000 BELOW KBB trade. It was grim for the guys who had to get out of their SUVs that were only a year or two old.)

I take the KBB trade number, add some money if it feels right, and drive the vehicle to a few dealers I know and have dealt with. I ask to see the used buyer and say, "Are you a buyer for a _______________? I want _____________? They'll always ask if a) Why are you selling? and b) Do you owe any money on it? Because they want to know the following: a) Are you desperate for money?, b) Can they buy it for less? and, c) Can they sell you a new car? So I tell them, "I have too many rigs, and I already have another truck. If you don't want it at my price, what will you pay?" I'll end up with a couple bids and, if the're close to each other and I'm comfortable that they're fair, I sell it. Then I'm off to work my new deal.

There is a perception that the guys in the new store will twist the arm of the used guys in order to help them make a new sale. There is some truth to that, but it seldom amounts to much money difference, especially if what you're selling isn't something they would normally inventory. Look around at their lot. Do they have stuff that looks like your trade? If not, they're shopping bids over the phone with the dealers that sell rigs like yours, then knocking $1,000 off the bid (sometimes) and telling the new vehicle sales the bid. That way, if the used guy gets the trade, he can try to sell it for a few days and, if he's not successfull in making a few grand, he can sell it to the guy who bid the $1,000 up. If the new car guy presses him enough to help make the new sale, the used guy may give up some of that margin to help, but the more he gives up the harder he has to work to make his nut at the end of the month, and most dealers treat new and used as separate profit centers.

The other part of your question is tough. Supply and demand always applies. My sister and brother in law were stuck passing through New York/Connecticut on the way to Vermont last year and they got totally hosed on a new Dodge truck. They needed a loaded one-ton SRW, and the only one around was a state and a day away. The dealer trade immediately cost them at least $1200, because the dealer who sold their dealer the truck kept the hold-back. And the dealer they bought from insisted on a $2,500 profit. I would NEVER do that. I told sis to grab a hotel and enjoy the sites for a few days while hubby flew out to Dave Smith Dodge/GM in Idaho and bought a new truck for $3,000+ less. But they were tired and wanted the ordeal to be over, so they opted to take their beating out east. (I called the dealer there, told them I knew the real numbers, threatened to just ship my sister a truck from out here, and they managed to miraculously find $500 in savings to help out a little".) Sis took the deal and got on with life.

I always try to support the local dealer if they're good, honest, hard-working folks and they're not trying to "gross" me. I get the feeling that the dealers out there don't have much in stock, don't sell very many, and try to knock the ball out of the park on every deal. The price will always be influenced by supply and demand, and they will rely on you're not being willing to say, "Screw it, I'm going to buy a truck in Ohio".

I recommend calling Dave Smith in Idaho. He sells 1,500 to 3,000 vehicles per month -- yes that's up to 100 per day -- and he's got a website and a 800 number. He's the largest Dodge dealer in the world, and a very large Chevy dealer. Tell the salesman exactly what you want and , ten minutes later, they will tell you want they have in stock. They also have every manner of customization right on site, from stereo, to lift/lower -- even custom leather/ostrich/alligator interior if you want

They'll shoot you a real, reasonable price within ten minutes. No B.S. If you want to buy from them, they'll get it all done over the phone and fax. There's an airport nearby, and hte dealer runs regular shutles to the airport to pick folks up for deliveries. It's pretty cool. Several of my friends now buy all their rigs from Dave Smith because they're tired of the local hassle -- and Dave Smith is about twelve hours from us. (Our states are big out here. It's over eight hours to the eastern border of Oregon from my place.)

One more thing. One potential advantage of the trade is the potential impact for tax purposes and/or business depreciation purposes. I recognize it can make a difference, but I'm not competent to advise. (We don't have sales tax here.) Good luck!


Last edited by Whaler22; 01-25-2008 at 05:34 AM.
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Old 01-25-2008, 08:43 AM   #73 (permalink)
Mad Max44
 
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Thanks Whaler22 for all your great insight! I have a deal in place right now with a local dealer thats giving me a decent price on my '02 F-350 XLT DRW $22,000. But my problem is he said allocation was not a problem but the order was not pulled last Thursday! I'm calling him today to see if it was pulled last night, if not I'll go somewhere else, maybe even drive to Idaho. If he had the allocation I would have a order # by now, thanks again
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Old 01-25-2008, 10:43 AM   #74 (permalink)
Whaler22
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Max44 View Post
Thanks Whaler22 for all your great insight! I have a deal in place right now with a local dealer thats giving me a decent price on my '02 F-350 XLT DRW $22,000. But my problem is he said allocation was not a problem but the order was not pulled last Thursday! I'm calling him today to see if it was pulled last night, if not I'll go somewhere else, maybe even drive to Idaho. If he had the allocation I would have a order # by now, thanks again
You're very welcome.

If you find the Idaho price is best, and the locals will not come close enough to compensate for the trip, you're almost certainly money ahead to just sell your trade outright to a local dealer and then fly west to pick up your new truck.

Also, when I called Dave Smith Dodge/GM for my sister they had exactly what she wanted in stock. They had literally hundreds of trucks in stock.

Also, there is nothing quite as big as Dave Smith Dodge, but there are bigger GM dealers, and they may be closer AND in warmer areas of the country. If I were you I might get the quick Dave Smith price and see if a large dealer in Ohio/Michigan/Georgia - wherever - is willing to match it today. (There is a lot of snow out here right now, so it's not the best time to come get a new truck. It will be better driving through the mountains in six or eight weeks. But Texas and Georgia are good now.)

Last thought: The New York dealer that sold to my sister told her that the east coast emissions requirements were different, "... so any truck you buy in Idaho may require expensive modifications..." I assume that's a bald-faced lie, as I thought there was only one diesel emissions standard for our trucks, but I never looked into it. Guys on this site will know the answer to that.

Last edited by Whaler22; 01-25-2008 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 01-25-2008, 01:32 PM   #75 (permalink)
enahs
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These guys (http://www.montanachevy.com/) are just over the state line in Missoula, Montana from Dave Smith in Idaho. They sell more Chevy trucks than Smith and have a huge inventory. Check what you want on line and contact the sales manager (Tripp) to ask for an invoice sale. Smith does not sell at invoice and uses add ons — though they are up front in dealing with you. Tyler proved remarkably easy to deal with in my case. I have no connection with any of them — just found this dealer to be entirely up front.
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Old 01-30-2008, 07:16 PM   #76 (permalink)
w3ng1
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Very good post with many good replies, thank you.
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Old 02-06-2008, 05:36 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Whaler22,

What a great post! I too have lots of experience w/purchasing vehicles and you and I think alot alike! My only additions to your great post are these:

USE THE INTERNET!!!! GM and Ford (maybe Dodge) have great vehicle search features on their websites. If your looking for a specific color, feature, etc., you can save alot of time by finding out which dealers have the vehicle you're looking for.

USE THE PHONE!!! Dealers want you to come in so they can pressure you. I find out my price via the methods whaler22 described, find out which dealers close by have the models I'm looking for and then let my fingers do the walking. You wouldn't believe the pricing descrepancies you will get for the same exact vehicle!

Good luck to everyone in their search!!

Last edited by Dozer_Fan; 02-06-2008 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 02-20-2008, 07:09 AM   #78 (permalink)
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Most pleased with Dave Smith experience.

I don't know about diesel emission standards. A few states (like New Jersey) have adopted IM240 (California) emission standards. Those vehicles are different.

Last edited by BlackMariah; 02-20-2008 at 07:09 AM.
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