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Duramax Second Generation: 2004.5-2005 (LLY) Discuss the second generation (2004.5-2005 LLY) of the 6.6L Duramax diesel engine & associated components. 2006 LLY engine discussion belongs in Third Generation forum due to the differences of the 2006 LLY and the 2004.5-2005 LLY. Engine related discussion ONLY.

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Old 11-13-2015, 11:04 PM   #1 (permalink)
Sederbd
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Need Help! Injector Issues: Poor Performance and ticking

Hello all,

First off I am a long time reader who really appreciates the knowledge of this site- I have read about injectors until my eyes feel like they are melting and may just need some expert opinions at this point.

I NEED TO GET THIS TRUCK RUNNING and am nervous about driving it in its present condition.... 05 LLY in my sig below. Injector Harness has been inspected ice picked and no codes are being set (except for 3 glow plug circuits... oh well its an el nino year right? ).

Symptoms are the truck is noisy at idle and has developed a tick that is audible in the cab- sounds like its coming from the passenger side bank (1357). Also when hot the truck will make a intermittent knock under load (this has only happened a few times).

After initially checking balance rates a few weeks ago (via Edge CTS) Everything looked in spec except for cylinder 5 which was +4.

I assumed dirty injectors and performed the DIY injector cleaner using the ACDelco diesel fuel solution and now it seems that my balance rates are all over the place. I am also currently running a strong mix of Diesel Kleen through the tank.

Below is a shot of my EDGE from this evening (I will list the rates below because my phone camera sucks so bad ) Also attached is FRP and fuel rate.

Balance Rates
Injector 1: +5.7
Injector 2: +0.5
Injector 3: -0.2
Injector 4: -2.4
Injector 5: +2.2
Injector 6: 0.0
Injector 7: -2.9
Injector 8: -2.7

Desired Fuel Rail Pressure is 4.3 Kpsi actual is 4.3 Kpsi
RPM @680 in park
Coolant Temperature @ 165F (Low I know but its 20 degrees in northern MN!)
MIFR is at 8mm^3

I have read the Proper way to check balance rates article and it seems that with a fuel rate of 8 I should subtract one from all readings.

Balance Rates (Corrected for Fuel Rate)
Injector 1: +4.7
Injector 2: -0.5
Injector 3: -1.2
Injector 4: -3.4
Injector 5: +1.2
Injector 6: -1.0
Injector 7: -3.9
Injector 8: -3.7

I am ready to start replacing injectors two at a time (all the budget has right now) and need some opinion on which ones should go first. I have read that a significantly high balance rate can through the rest off and there have been instances that during driving I have seen the #1 injector exceed 7 (just not when I checked this evening). If you guys think there is something else that could be causing this please chime in! Otherwise any thoughts on where to start would be appreciated!

Attached Images
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File Type: jpg IMG_0546.jpg (45.4 KB, 4 views)
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Old 11-15-2015, 07:29 AM   #2 (permalink)
littlehippy93
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Since you can get on-demand stats, play with your injector locations.
I worked up your firing order vs cyl#, study the pattern....
Firing order
1 +4.7 no boom
2 -0.5 acceptable
7 -3.9 to much boom
8 -3.7 to much
4 -3.4 to much
5 +1.2 acceptable
6 -1.0 acceptable
3 -1.2 acceptable
1 +4.7 no boom
2 -0.5 acceptable
7 -3.9 to much boom
8 -3.7 to much
4 -3.4 to much
5 +1.2 acceptable
6 -1.0 acceptable
3 -1.2 acceptable

If it were me, I'd swap #1 & #8, relog your data etc.. then revert to original locations, and maybe swap #6 & #8 just for the hell of it, see what your stat's change to.
I personally engraved each injector with a letter, A-H, so I can keep track of what was where, as well as long term stat's of how each one has acted over time...
Study the results(don't just warm'er up and look) drive'r like your trying beat the sun..
Let'r cool, then repeat a few time's if necessary between modifications(swap'n injectors)
See what changes, the red flags should beat you in the face after too long.
Remember, scanners/tuners/monitors aren't made equal, some will tell you the firing order rates(but cyl# stays in order[I.E. you think cyl#3 is cyl#3, but for some reason it is really cyl#7])
Firing order:
1 – 2 – 7 – 8 – 4 – 5 – 6 – 3
Hope this helps, I feel ya, no joke, the issue in my sig is comb of injectors, and bad mounts...
P.S. make sure your tire's are properly inflated per your load, and driving conditions...
-Making sure your batteries are properly holding voltage/getting proper charge/etc.. isn't a meaningless task, and doesn't cost you anything.(muchless checking the rest of your rig)

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FOR SALE! The Ghost - 05 LLY - W/T - 343,xxx mi
4x4 - CCLB Dually needs heads

07 - Silverado gasser
53 - 3100 Five window
98 - Dakota

RIP - Ole Blue - Gone Forever
93 6.5TD - 387,xxx mi - nv4500 - 4.11 dualler
CCLB-PW-PL-CC-TILT-TINT - 87' service bed

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Last edited by littlehippy93; 11-15-2015 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 11-15-2015, 07:38 AM   #3 (permalink)
littlehippy93
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Furthermore, the PCM will pull down(reduce flow) on consecutive firing cylinders to compensate for too much 'boom', and will in the same manner, push up(incease flow) on cylinders firing after a dead 'boom' i.e. not enough fuel... all over-complicated info but still needs to be considered since injectors are so expensive... Good Luck!
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2015 LML LTZ Dually

FOR SALE! The Ghost - 05 LLY - W/T - 343,xxx mi
4x4 - CCLB Dually needs heads

07 - Silverado gasser
53 - 3100 Five window
98 - Dakota

RIP - Ole Blue - Gone Forever
93 6.5TD - 387,xxx mi - nv4500 - 4.11 dualler
CCLB-PW-PL-CC-TILT-TINT - 87' service bed

Fabrication Specialist - One Man Band , Full service - Metals design/milling/machining/welding/brazing/coating/tool-making-tool-maker

Last edited by littlehippy93; 11-15-2015 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 11-16-2015, 10:39 AM   #4 (permalink)
Sederbd
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Thanks for the advice! I had a few more questions come to mind...

1st per your comment on the PCM pulling down fuel on consecutive cylinders after "too much boom"- this could be causing the balance rates when put in firing rate order to be consistently negative after cylinder 7 fires (3rd in firing order). This would perhaps suggest a stuck injector or something similar in cylinder 7, then cylinders 8 and 4 continue to defuel to adjust for cylinder 7?

2nd- After looking around the forum it seems that the Edge CTS insight is a pretty popular option for gauges. Can anyone confirm that the cylinders are numbered in the edge per their location and not for the firing order??

3rd- I have two reman bosch injectors on the way. I am thinking of replacing cylinder 7, per the information above than running it to see what my balance rates level off to. Then replacing whichever injector seems out the most.. Any more thoughts or opinions would be appreciated.. Thanks!
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Old 11-16-2015, 11:10 AM   #5 (permalink)
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@littlehippy93 - that was a very useful piece of info to share - the firing order, and the impact on BR is very cool. that improved my understanding a lot more than wading into all the info on "correcting" the values with actual fuel rates etc.
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Old 11-16-2015, 12:51 PM   #6 (permalink)
littlehippy93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sederbd View Post
Thanks for the advice! I had a few more questions come to mind...

1st per your comment on the PCM pulling down fuel on consecutive cylinders after "too much boom"- this could be causing the balance rates when put in firing rate order to be consistently negative after cylinder 7 fires (3rd in firing order). This would perhaps suggest a stuck injector or something similar in cylinder 7, then cylinders 8 and 4 continue to defuel to adjust for cylinder 7?
Yes, and no, IMHO I'd say cyl#1 is the culprit, that's why I'd swap it with cyl#8(seeing how cyl# 7-8-9 are somewhat steady in rate)

2nd- After looking around the forum it seems that the Edge CTS insight is a pretty popular option for gauges. Can anyone confirm that the cylinders are numbered in the edge per their location and not for the firing order??
As far as the Edge, I have no personal experience with it, however, I'd have to say it's pretty good chance the edge is telling you the right Cyl#.

3rd- I have two reman bosch injectors on the way. I am thinking of replacing cylinder 7, per the information above than running it to see what my balance rates level off to. Then replacing whichever injector seems out the most.. Any more thoughts or opinions would be appreciated.. Thanks!
Ummm... I could be wrong, but I think cyl#1 would be the one I'd swap in first(with a new injector). You can put the new one's any where you want.
Just my way of thinking when it comes to our injectors and how they are controlled VS what we see in the data(yea, and the $$$$). You can do whatever you think is the solution, but IMO I would replace only *1(any, just ONE at a time) injector, (I'd even unhook the batteries overnight[see if the PCM will relearn faster{maybe?}]) then run the piss out of it for a week. Re-log your data, and repeat the process to hopefully isolate the worst one next.
*Since you are only replacing 2 injectors, and not ALL 8.

@sadolph: I just wish the 'Professionals' at the diesel shops, much the dealer were as, or more, educated as us' owners(most D owners)
It brings uncertainty to me when I have to tell some one how to fix my truck.

To anyone that could fill us in on rebuilding the LLY injector: I'd be all over it.
Not something I'd recommend to an amateur, but I'm confident I could pull it off.
When the 'core' charge is almost equal to the price of the injector..
I'm almost temped to get 1 to swap in for my worst, and tear into the old one to try and figure it out, gotta start somewhere, only thing to it-is to do it guess.
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2015 LML LTZ Dually

FOR SALE! The Ghost - 05 LLY - W/T - 343,xxx mi
4x4 - CCLB Dually needs heads

07 - Silverado gasser
53 - 3100 Five window
98 - Dakota

RIP - Ole Blue - Gone Forever
93 6.5TD - 387,xxx mi - nv4500 - 4.11 dualler
CCLB-PW-PL-CC-TILT-TINT - 87' service bed

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Old 11-16-2015, 01:28 PM   #7 (permalink)
Sederbd
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Driving today I saw cylinder 1 hit +7 when stopped in idle at a stop light Seems to me that this would be the first one I should switch...

So here's my plan. Swap out #1 injector with a new one and run the truck for a few days. I will keep an eye out for abnormally low balance rates (don't want to burn a hole in a piston ) I'll update back on the results.

On a side note going back to the GM top end injector cleaning. It seems odd to me that after the treatment injector 1 balance rates started acting up after the treatment. Does anyone else have any experience with this happening?

As far as the ability of local dealerships to accurately diagnose and fix these trucks I have absolutely no confidence. I have found that by the time I go in and explain the issues and also tell them what kind of diagnostics I have already run... the techs are lost. I have received the answer of "well the truck is getting up there in miles you need 8 new injectors" numerous times. I don't doubt that 8 new injectors would take care of the issue.. but it just isn't in the cards right this moment.

Anyways does disconnecting the batteries help the PCM relearn more quickly? Does the PCM store history on injector function or is it just constantly adjusted?

Once again thanks for the advice.
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Old 11-16-2015, 02:00 PM   #8 (permalink)
littlehippy93
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@Sederbd: Now your getting it!

-As far as the cleaning, I've done it but found the truck ran smoother(seat of pants). I wish I had my own monitor to see my rates on-demand like you have. I suppose the cleaner possibly 'loosened up' something in your fuel system, and could be stuck now in your injector causing it to stick, or be clogged(+4.7=PCM wants more flow).

-It's just my experience with electronics nowadays, especially since a low rail pressure code cause's limp mode(what a pain). You have to cycle the key, clear code, then you can drive again, tells me the PCM is SOOO smart, its dumb. I'm sure some one of the diesel masters on here 'DP', could enlighten us all...

In other news, I've been eye-balling this rebuild kit from 'Hole-Sail-Injectres.com':
http://www.wholesaleinjectors.com/product/full-duramax-2004-5-2005-lly-injector-kit/

I'm still not sold yet, but this video makes it look straight forward(although its an lb7, lly injectors are very similar[much easier to r&r too]):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8oSGO5H1b8

..my trigger finger for this has been itching for months, but the ole lady won't let me take the 'safety' off , maybe I should make her drive it for a while, then again she may enjoy the vibration & shaking...
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2015 LML LTZ Dually

FOR SALE! The Ghost - 05 LLY - W/T - 343,xxx mi
4x4 - CCLB Dually needs heads

07 - Silverado gasser
53 - 3100 Five window
98 - Dakota

RIP - Ole Blue - Gone Forever
93 6.5TD - 387,xxx mi - nv4500 - 4.11 dualler
CCLB-PW-PL-CC-TILT-TINT - 87' service bed

Fabrication Specialist - One Man Band , Full service - Metals design/milling/machining/welding/brazing/coating/tool-making-tool-maker
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Old 11-16-2015, 03:10 PM   #9 (permalink)
Sederbd
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Rebuilding the injectors is a provocative idea- Is that $500 for rebuilding all 8?
From my understanding the ball valves wear causing excess fuel to be passed by the injector? Any I'm assuming the tips become worn as well.

How violent is this vibrating and shaking? And it goes away when taking a right curve?

One other question I have is are the Bosch reman injectors the same regardless of the vendor? I found some for a reasonable price that come with a one year warranty. When I purchased I assumed that they were re-manufactured by Bosch, but is it possible that there is a third party that is rebuilding them even if they are advertised as Bosch remans?
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Old 11-16-2015, 03:25 PM   #10 (permalink)
littlehippy93
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Seems like yes, all 8 for 500..
lots of info everyone has different opinions on what actually ends up being the problem..

Vibration/Shaking like a tire with 3+ oz of weight unbalance, and yep, smoothes right out, I believe it has to do with my worn mounts, and the wieght transfer on a curve, and/or frame twisting to 'firm' up the looseness... or combination of all..

I'm unknowing on manufactures per say, nor rebuilders... I'd be interested in some solid info on that too...

I'm really interested in finding out if the kit works, or 'could' work, or not worth the effort... $500.00, and my time ~1 day to install the kit, is so much better than avg ~$2000 to swap in re-mans, much less top dollar sets ~$4000! OUCH!

And say I do install the kit, and it repairs/replaces what is actually worn, I'm wondering about the flow everyone says could be way off...
How do they adjust the rebuild to spec???? ANYONE?????

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2015 LML LTZ Dually

FOR SALE! The Ghost - 05 LLY - W/T - 343,xxx mi
4x4 - CCLB Dually needs heads

07 - Silverado gasser
53 - 3100 Five window
98 - Dakota

RIP - Ole Blue - Gone Forever
93 6.5TD - 387,xxx mi - nv4500 - 4.11 dualler
CCLB-PW-PL-CC-TILT-TINT - 87' service bed

Fabrication Specialist - One Man Band , Full service - Metals design/milling/machining/welding/brazing/coating/tool-making-tool-maker
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