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Old 04-29-2010, 03:12 PM   #1 (permalink)
midnightrumbler
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Injection Pump my AZZ

So after having a ton of individuals not only on this forum but others swear my IP is heading south with the symptoms I had described, I was pretty addoment it was the APP that was faulty and not the IP.

I located an APP for an excellent price off a savana to test the original APP with the new used unit and I must say the truck can now hold almost any rpm at idle, does not stumble or buck through any gear and can hold not only in third gear without bucking but now in second gear as well.

I just wantewd to say I appreciate all who responded to my questions in regards to the IP and the APP but I have to say I am more than glad I did not dig into an IP as much had stated to do.

I am no diesel mechanic but for some reason, I felt it was more electrical related than fuel related.

One thing I have to say, DO NOT always point the finger at a faulty IP as this would be the last issue I would diagnose.

I do not think one individual agreed with me that the issues I was having was a faulty APP. I know they are extremely uncommon to fail, but here is proof that the pedal is at fault. I installed the old after a test run with the savana unit and the truck will act up again.

Unfortunately for me, I am going to have to modify the savana pedal a little as it is a completely different pedal and mounting bracket. And to boot, I am now dripping tranny fluid from the seal so I may be into a tranny flush. If it is not one thing it is another.

__________________
1995 Silverado 3500 Dually Ext. Cab
"F" CODE, 335,000 km's, Manual Glow plug over ride, Electronic brake control,

High Idle Mod, Boost Gauge, Home Made TurboMaster, Relocated OPS with Relay,
Lift Pump Bleed Switch under hood, Relocated PMD (Front Bumper)

Future mods: Cold Air Intake, 3.5" Down Pipe, 4" straight pipe, EGT Gauge, 2005 Tow Mirrors,

I WANT TO HEAR THAT TURBO SCREAM.....
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Old 04-29-2010, 04:11 PM   #2 (permalink)
JMJNet
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Well, glad you fixed it.

As I said in the other thread, we have not joined the psychic network yet. So we just go by your description. At the end, it is your responsibility to fix the truck.

Cheers!!!

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1995 GMC Suburban:
PMD in Bumper
Leroy Diesel Flight System PMD
Leroy Diesel Oil Cooler Line
4" Warpspeed Exhaust
Kennedy Diesel LP/OPS Harness
Bosch Duraterm GP
Heath Turbo-Master
AD244 Alternator
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Old 04-29-2010, 04:21 PM   #3 (permalink)
midnightrumbler
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JMJ,

I do not think you could have said it better but I also do not think that every culprit of failing IP symptoms are just that and everyone should not directly point to a bad IP.

I even went as far as to replace a brand new PMD with a known working PMD to see if this could be the culprit.

Either way, I appreiate the help of this forum. My problem has been solved by replacing the APP and I can now focus on other issues with the truck. Like my new leaking tranny pan.....
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1995 Silverado 3500 Dually Ext. Cab
"F" CODE, 335,000 km's, Manual Glow plug over ride, Electronic brake control,

High Idle Mod, Boost Gauge, Home Made TurboMaster, Relocated OPS with Relay,
Lift Pump Bleed Switch under hood, Relocated PMD (Front Bumper)

Future mods: Cold Air Intake, 3.5" Down Pipe, 4" straight pipe, EGT Gauge, 2005 Tow Mirrors,

I WANT TO HEAR THAT TURBO SCREAM.....

Last edited by midnightrumbler; 04-29-2010 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 04-29-2010, 09:52 PM   #4 (permalink)
ABarnaby
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I am glad to hear you found the problem. Nice work!!! The APP is not a common problem with these trucks.

As difficult as it is to explain a problem through words, try to diagnose it or explain a how to trouble shoot it!!!
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:36 AM   #5 (permalink)
JMJNet
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Midnightrumbler, I have a suggestion for positive contribution to the forum.

Why don't you write/summarize the symptoms and how you found out the APP is bad? Instead of cursing us not knowing about it.

I know I want to know it before it happens to me.

Who knows if it is good, may be the mods can put it in the FAQ.
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1995 GMC Suburban:
PMD in Bumper
Leroy Diesel Flight System PMD
Leroy Diesel Oil Cooler Line
4" Warpspeed Exhaust
Kennedy Diesel LP/OPS Harness
Bosch Duraterm GP
Heath Turbo-Master
AD244 Alternator

Last edited by JMJNet; 04-30-2010 at 12:36 AM.
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Old 04-30-2010, 09:01 AM   #6 (permalink)
midnightrumbler
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JMJ,

I appologize if you assume I am cursing you or other individuals as this is not my intent and sometimes words can be misinterpreted through the internet.

I am quite simply trying to make note that although 98% of individuals pointed to a faulty IP, it is directly related to the individual whom owns the vehicle to take matters into their own hands and diagnose these issues with the help of individuals from this forum and not take exact information from others and use these as determining factors.

It is good to have threads like this and others as some problems are very similar to others as these 6.5's have been around for quite some time now and 6.5 owners should have very similar fault related issues.

I am hoping that with a few searches and good luck, other individuals whom have had or are having the same issues as I, do not point the finger directly to the point and take the proper steps to diagnose the main cause of the problem. It is very easy to suggest an IP is faulty as these were symptoms I was receiving but I also did not want to rule out other factors.

Be very persistent with what you do and the pay off will benefit you and your wallet in the long haul.

Again, Thank you to this forum for your help in my related issues as this has been the biggest pain in my azz with the truck yet. I am glad I have this issue figured out.


For those of you whom have no idea what I am refering to. Take a moment and read.

Here were the symptoms I was getting with the truck.

1995 Chev Silverado 6.5 TD Ext. Cab Long Box Dually 4X4

The truck would start and idle great. I would get up to 60-80km/h and the truck would start to buck or hesitate as if I had air or lack of fuel in the lines. Going up grades would be fine but running on straights or down grades I would get the bucking hesitation. I set a DTC-25 which lead me into the APP but I also reveived a DTC-35 shortly after which made me and others believe it could be the IP. I wanted to start with the easy things before working into an IP.

I tested fuel pressure at the WIF drain at idle and while driving and the numbers were well within spec which informed me the Lift Pump and OPS were functioning properly. The fuel pressure did not drop off while the truck would buck or hesitate.

Numbers at WIF Drain Valve within Spec

I am seeing 6-7 psi at idle and 2-3 psi at hard acceleration. When the jerking sensation occurs, it did not effect the fuel pressure.


The PMD was new when I bought the truck but was installed on the IP. I wanted to relocate the PMD to the front bumper of the vehicle to rule this out as a possible factor as the truck would not buck or hesitate right away so I thought maybe the PMD was heating up and causing the issue.

The OPS was also new when I bought the truck but also wanted to relocate this for reliability. I installed an 8" grease line to the bac of the motor where the OPS original was and mounted the OPS to the fuel management unit and installed a relay with this to take the load off the OPS.

The truck has 336,000 km's on the dial so I wanted to replace all fuel lines as they appeard to be original and I put in a new fuel filter and air filter. All grounds, and I mean ALL grounds were thouroughly cleaned. Removed the Fuel Filter Management Unit and thouroughly cleaned this out as there was a slight blockage in the feed line and alot of debris on the bottom of the unit. Cleaned the CDR with a little fuel and also installed a High Idle Switch. I also installed a fuel additive directly into the Fuel Filter Management Unit as well as 2-Stroke oil to help lubricate the pump.

I was also having an issue with lack of power and black smoke so wanted to rule this out. Ended up i had a faulty Wastegate Selonoid so I bypassed vacuum and installed a home made TurboMaster and a Boost Gauge. Do not run without a Boost Gauge.

Want to install a TurboMaster?

https://www.dieselplace.com/forum/sho...51#post2322951


Much to my surprise none of this helped the issue at all


Installed a High Idle Switch.....

The thing I found odd is I could not hold rpm's at all with the fuel pedal and yet with the High Idle Switch the truck held 1250 rpm's no problem. This lead me to believe I may have a faulty APP as if it were the IP, the high idle mod should also have issues holding rpm's, or atleast we would think.

I would recomened if you are having similar issues, install a high idle mod and see if rpm's can be held

Installation of OBD-I High Idle Mod

https://www.dieselplace.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=340699


Want to pull your codes on an OBD-I ?.

Paper clip on the A-B connectors of the Diagnostic port - Two upper right connectors are the A -B. Put a paper clip in A and lead the other end into B

Put the key in the ignition but do not crank the motor. Check engine light will flash

1-2 1-2 1-2 means 12 which is no codes any other codes will flash as to what they are indicating 2-2 2-2 2-2 means 22 etc.

All codes will flash 3 times. If you have never done this before, have a pen and paper handy, you may have lots of stored codes but generally they reset after 50 key on engine off procedures.

You can clear the codes by either disconnecting the batteries for a short period (10 minutes) or leave the paper clip in A-B ports of the diagnostic and simoutaneously press the brake and fuel pedal 4-6 times. This will clear all codes.

Do not remove the paper clip with the key in the on position. Take the key out of the ignition and remove the paper clip. this prevents any shorting to the PCM.



APP Voltage Signal & Reference Numbers

1995 Silverado 6.5 TD 4X4 ext.cab Dually

My original APP Signal/Reference

KEY ON ENGINE OFF

Terminals G and A have 5.03 Volts and do not fluctuate at all when pedal is at WOT

Terminals D and B have 5.03 Volts and do not fluctuate at all when pedal is at WOT

Terminals E and J have 4.90 Volts and can drop down in volts to 0.64 when pedal is at WOT

Between terminals F and A have 0.66 volts and increase to 3.44 volts

Between terminals C and B have 4.40 volts and decrease to 1.72 volts

Between terminals K and J have 3.38 volts and decrease ro 0.62 volts


So we know that the APP has 3 sensors, my readings throughout APP sensor 1 and 2 appear to be correct, it is APP sensor 3 where the problem seems to be but I am not sure if it is the pedal or the wiring

Incase some are wondering what signal wirings are what

G, F and A are all in Sensor circuit 1

D, B and C are all in Sensor circuit 2

E, J and K are all in Sensor circuit 3


EXACT APP TESTING VOLTAGE

APP Sensor Circuit 1 produces a varying voltage of between 0.35volts-0.95volts dc at idle and 4.0 volts dc at WOT

APP Sensor Circuit 2 produces a varying voltage of between 4.5 volts dc at idle and 1.0volts dc at WOT

APP Sensor Circuit 3 produces a varying voltage of between 4.1 volts dc at idle and 2.5 volts dc WOT


If I compare the information based on the above readings to what I have recorded, I think we have diagnosed a faulty APP as the readings in APP Sensor Circuit 3 are way out. APP Sensor Circuit 1 and 2 are within specs....


ANOTHER METHOD of testing the APP - Very similar to above

https://www.dieselplace.com/forum/***...0&d=1272309290



Again, I want to thank everyone for helping me diagnose the issues. I could not have done it without the help of this forum. All links I have included are courtesy of other members from this forum and I take no credit for these. The links and information I have included are what helped me along with the truck and diagnose the issue as well as help prevent future issues as some of these devices are prone to fail in oroginal locations.
__________________
1995 Silverado 3500 Dually Ext. Cab
"F" CODE, 335,000 km's, Manual Glow plug over ride, Electronic brake control,

High Idle Mod, Boost Gauge, Home Made TurboMaster, Relocated OPS with Relay,
Lift Pump Bleed Switch under hood, Relocated PMD (Front Bumper)

Future mods: Cold Air Intake, 3.5" Down Pipe, 4" straight pipe, EGT Gauge, 2005 Tow Mirrors,

I WANT TO HEAR THAT TURBO SCREAM.....

Last edited by midnightrumbler; 04-30-2010 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 04-30-2010, 11:23 AM   #7 (permalink)
primo382
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Excellent write up... Thanks for the great contribution! Your persistence payed off in the end. Diagnosing an issue is a lost art that 50% (maybe more) of "mechanics" don't possess. You on the other hand should pat yourself on the back! Well done
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:52 PM   #8 (permalink)
JMJNet
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Yes, this is awesome!!! Any mods who sees this may be can be part of sticky???
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1995 GMC Suburban:
PMD in Bumper
Leroy Diesel Flight System PMD
Leroy Diesel Oil Cooler Line
4" Warpspeed Exhaust
Kennedy Diesel LP/OPS Harness
Bosch Duraterm GP
Heath Turbo-Master
AD244 Alternator
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:21 PM   #9 (permalink)
deejaaa
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.................

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJNet View Post
Midnightrumbler, I have a suggestion for positive contribution to the forum.

Why don't you write/summarize the symptoms and how you found out the APP is bad? Instead of cursing us not knowing about it............
good response JMJNet.
what i had wrote last night, but deleted, wasn't quite so nice.
glad it's working midnightrumbler..................
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Originally Posted by trbon8r View Post
"Member #1 of The A$$h0le Club" Your signature is most appropriate.
Black 93 1 ton crew cab, fuel/boost gauge, spin-on pre-FFM filter, 6.5 stock, 30 gal bed mounted tank,soon to be siphon tank, w/Goldenrod on feed, brought home 9/4/08, Turbo that starts with A, OEM crossover, quad headlights, reskinned door cards/headliner, 2 power-ports on lower dash, hour-meter, 235/85R16LT tires, GV unit(2K rpm at 68 mph w/4:10's), TCI EZ-TCU 4L80, working on DD Radio install, OEM tank removed but soon replaced.
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Member #1 of The A$$h0le Club
Quote:
Originally Posted by subclatter View Post
...get it under control or someone might cave in your head someday.....People get killed everyday because of attitudes like yours. All it takes is running into the wrong person at the wrong time. You shoot off your mouth and they shoot off your head and suddenly you're pushing up daisies.
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Old 05-01-2010, 08:49 AM   #10 (permalink)
midnightrumbler
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deejaa,

Incase you missed in my post just three threads above yours, here is a little refresher for you

I appologize if you assume I am cursing you or other individuals, this is not my intent and sometimes words can be misinterpreted through the internet

__________________
1995 Silverado 3500 Dually Ext. Cab
"F" CODE, 335,000 km's, Manual Glow plug over ride, Electronic brake control,

High Idle Mod, Boost Gauge, Home Made TurboMaster, Relocated OPS with Relay,
Lift Pump Bleed Switch under hood, Relocated PMD (Front Bumper)

Future mods: Cold Air Intake, 3.5" Down Pipe, 4" straight pipe, EGT Gauge, 2005 Tow Mirrors,

I WANT TO HEAR THAT TURBO SCREAM.....
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