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A few newbie questions on Water/meth

6K views 46 replies 14 participants last post by  lotsofmiles 
#1 ·
I have done some research on this water/ meth thing, I am more interested in the engine cleaning effects, lower egt's and engine longevity in general rather than high performance gains. So some of my questions are:
1. Is this suitable for a daily driven rig that is conservatively driven? I'm not a black smoke bomber.
2. Are the systems fully automated once installed? To quote Ron Popeil "Set it and forget it" ? Or do you have to constantly monitor when to use it.
3. How much of the mixture do you typically use in say a tankful of diesel. I know it will depend on what you are doing but a rough ratio of how often you are topping of the tank of the mixture.
4. Do the systems positively or negatively affect the injectors longevity particularly in the LB7 motor?
5. Is there a filter in the system seeing as how our trucks need very clean fuel how do you ensure that the mixture is just as clean.

That's most of what I can think of for now. I would appreciate anyone's knowledgable answers to these. I tried to search as much prior to asking so please don't just tell me to do a search. Thanks
 
#2 ·
I have done some research on this water/ meth thing, I am more interested in the engine cleaning effects, lower egt's and engine longevity in general rather than high performance gains. So some of my questions are:
1. Is this suitable for a daily driven rig that is conservatively driven? I'm not a black smoke bomber. Absolutely! Plenty of people use them just to improve fuel mileage.
2. Are the systems fully automated once installed? To quote Ron Popeil "Set it and forget it" ? Or do you have to constantly monitor when to use it. Once you get it dialed in, and depending on what system you go with, you pretty much only need to keep an eye on your tank level.
3. How much of the mixture do you typically use in say a tankful of diesel. I know it will depend on what you are doing but a rough ratio of how often you are topping of the tank of the mixture. I fill my 5 gal tank on the average of every 500miles or so, but these numbers aren't accurate due to my leaky pump I had.
4. Do the systems positively or negatively affect the injectors longevity particularly in the LB7 motor? Water/Meth will have NO effect on your injectors. How often you change your fuel filter will however!;)
5. Is there a filter in the system seeing as how our trucks need very clean fuel how do you ensure that the mixture is just as clean. Most systems have a screen in the tank and at the nozzles-that's it. The strict cleanliness of the fuel is only due to the close tolerances in the HP fuel pumps and the injectors. If we were just running a P-Pump, you could get away with a little more dirt. CR systems are much more finicky!!

That's most of what I can think of for now. I would appreciate anyone's knowledgable answers to these. I tried to search as much prior to asking so please don't just tell me to do a search. Thanks
Do a search!!:D J/K!! Good luck picking a system that fits your needs.
 
#4 ·
Well if your worried about dirt so much, when you go to fill up the tank just find a air tight building some where and fill the tank up lol. I myself have been running the snow stage 2 kit since 2006 and never had any problem with it. If you buy boost juice like I used to snow mixes it in a controlled enviroment with 50% percent distilled water and 50% methanol. Now my kit is not set-up for daily driving because I use the biggest nozzles they send in the kit and I used two of them. I can burn up a gallon of the mixture in 4 good hard dragstrip passes thats alot so I dont use it for daily driving. I'm fixing to start using 100% distilled water for just sled pulling to shed some EGT's
 
#6 ·
Hold on tanc chrusher there is no suction line its all gravity fed until it hits the pump then its under pressure to the nozzles. Unless you have some sort of special setup I never seen one with a suction line?
 
#7 ·
Thanks for the info fellas, Urdone you say there is no effect on injectors so does that mean that it will not help keep the tips from coking up? I ask because I also want to start using B100 on on another thread someone said that the suggested using water/meth to keep the injector tips clean. What's the verdict on that?
 
#8 ·
The only thing I see about the injectors choking up would would be the Bio-diesel. But Bio diesel is not the bad thing. Its what is put in it. Sometimes depending on what you choose soybeanes,peanuts, and algae types of bio diesel don't get filtered as well at the refinery as they should so trash tends to get in the fuel. Since your going the B100 route keep a close eye on that. Now your fuel filter will stop some of the particles but not all of them. I beleive that most filters only acheive filteration down to 2 microns which is (.002 of an inch) of what the human eye can see. Now the holes in the injector are somewhere along that size may even be smaller and they are a class-to-fit part meaning that any little subtance can damage them (hence trash in the fuel). Now as for water/meth cleaning the injector nozzle im not sure because only a small amount of the nozzle is exposed in the cylinder. When water/meth is injected into the charged intake air it is a fine mist. Once it reaches the combustion chamber the water is vaporized into steam (for cleaning of carbon deposits) and the meth is burned as extra fuel for more power. Also when the water is turned into steam because of the already existing heat in the chamber it expands. So you have a lot more volume of H2O and air (1 part Hydrogen and 2 parts Oxygen). You actually get more air in the cylinder because of thermal expansion. So to answer your question its kinda a 50/50 shot on saying it actually cleans the injector nozzles or tip(s).
 
#11 ·
urdone what company is using positive displacement pumps now?
All the kits I know of are gravity fed pumps. Most all the kits I know of tell you to mount the pump lower than the tank so get flow to the pump. Correct me If i'm wrong but thats a new one on me lol. From the looks of the pump, for some reason I was thinking its a centrifugal style pump same as the water pump on youe engine? I could be wrong though?
 
#13 ·
I'm not sure you would make 200psi with a centrifugual pump. Also, if they are all centrifugual then Labonte's new frame mount tank wouldn't work. The suction fitting is lower than the frame rail so the pump has to be mounted higher than the tank.

I was under the impression that they were all vane pumps to be honest with you. We need one of these manufacturers to speak up here and clear this up!!:D or someone to take one apart and look!:cool:
 
#12 ·
Just saw the Snow 3 MPG MAX kit for $1k price seems high but it has an electronic controller that also has a boost and egt gauge. Does any one have this kit? Is it overkill for what I stated above? It did say it was a "set it and forget it" system. Also is the bed typically where the tank gets placed?
 
#14 ·
Yes, most systems have the tank in the bed. Labonte has a new 7gal aluminum tank that mounts to the frame rail. Looks pretty sweet too. To be honest with you, I would go with Labonte. The DIS 3 system is cheaper, does the same as the snow and has a really nice touch screen display that is easy to use. Also their customer support is second to none!!
 
#16 ·
#17 ·
Interesting......."A diaphragm pump is a positive displacement pump that uses a combination of the reciprocating action of a rubber, thermoplastic or teflon diaphragm and suitable non-return check valves to pump a fluid. Sometimes this type of pump is also called a membrane pump."

I never thought they would use a diaphragm pump, but I guess if you just pump water, there is nothing to lube the parts so a diaphragm is a sensible alternative for a positive displacement pump. And yes, they still will lift fluid on the suction side!! But gravity will help them catch prime faster and easier if you ever run them out of fluid.
 
#18 ·
Thanks for all the help on this, these systems should come stock on a turbo diesel for the price we pay for them!. I have another question, what happens if you run out of water in the tank? Will it damage the motor or the water meth system. I could just see me forgeting to fill the tank up if it is tuck into my bed mounted tool box. I would think the it shouldn't have any negative effect on either and the motor would just run like it did without the system, but I am not certain on this.
 
#19 ·
I have the Labonte system it has a low level alarm to tell u when the tank is down. As long as you have the display beep on. Also the FL icon comes on. Talked to Dan he said it shouldn't be a problem to run ot dry if it wasn't for to long. I would highly recommend the Labonte system.
 
#20 ·
All ya'll have the new computer systems for your controls. I just have the stage 2 system from snow. It has been on the truck since late 06 early 07 and never had a problem. The way I did mine is I just mounted it under the windshield washer fluid tank on the driver side and when the tank is low the "check windshield washer fuild" comes on my DIC so I know to fill it up. I probably use more water/meth than ya'll do though I have two .625 milliliter a minute nozzles. The system I have is based off of boost only and it comes in at 10lbs of boost and pours the juice to it lol. I'm actually fixing to start using just striaght distilled water so I can keep my EGT's down during a pull or pass on the strip.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Im running 3 M-14 nozzles , have the primary shut off, added the 3rd to the mains an make it come at 25lbs of boost. 6 ga tank can be gone in a hurray if ya want to play. yet it wont bring the egt's in check. Looks like big turbo or tuning change.....All distilled water and meth, different mixtures.
 
#29 ·
Using straight water most will see is 300F drop in egts. 25psi might be too late to start spray, unless you are at 50psi of boost. Set the start at about 1/2 your max boost.

Does the controller go to 100% injection or show something lower? If it is not going to 100% you are not getting max flow out of your nozzles.
 
#22 ·
well slydog you may have too much injecting in if you can't get you EGT's in check? I'm seeing 250 to 300 deg drops and a couple extra lbs of boost from my system.
 
#23 ·
I started out with just the 2 mains and small nozzles and have just kept getting bigger to see how much it can handle with out puting out the fire. It brings the egts down but not into the safe zone if ya stay on it. That is with level 5 and 6. I think those tunes are just to hot with out a bigger turbo..
 
#24 ·
Try running just 100% straight distilled water like i'm going to the more water equals less EGT's more meth means more power but higher EGT's. Its worth a shot lol.
 
#25 ·
But becarful you might get the dreaded "combustion quench" may have to increase your water injection boost pressure start time to come in at a higher psi and use smaller nozzles for the setup
 
#27 ·
Sorry beachtruck i guess i got to ahead of myself typing and didn't think it through quick enough lol I knew the measurement guess I didn't proof read before I replied lol
 
#28 ·
All the pumps you get with water injection systems are diaphragm positive displacement types. The pump we use makes a good amount of suction on the inlet side and can draw fluid vertically through a dry line at least 3 feet.
Our 250psi pump has a recirculating head design to make constant pressure without cycling unlike the older 150s that used a pressure cut out switch.

Since the pump has an internal 50psi check valve, this locks pressurized fluid on the outlet side when the solenoid closes in our systems. This acts as an accumulator and you always have min pressure fluid when you need it for proper atomization.

If you are putting in too much fluid the truck will tell you. Signs are blowing out white smoke or hearing a pinging sound from the engine during injection.
 
#30 ·
I tried the 100% water thing earlier in the year but now is not an option because of freezing temps already. with the 2 m14's i could run at 100% INJ and it would still blow thro the temps as high as 1700+ :( well thats were I let off . With the 3 m14's I have the injection down to about 75% there was a slight ping at 100% but no white smoke. Seems like its good till about 3/4 throttle then it just goes into meltdown. The PPE adds some big fuel at the top end it seems. The max boost I ve seen is 36psi and have had the setting up and down. I have some more time today I'm gonna go change a few settings and see.
One thing is I have the pump and tank in the rear of the truck would this affect the pressure ? I'M gonna thro a gauge on a see whats up.
Next I'm goin to drop the tune down were the EGTS are better then giver some W/M and see what happens. I'll thro a few pics up of the install case anyone is interested:D
 

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#31 ·
I tried the 100% water thing earlier in the year but now is not an option because of freezing temps already. with the 2 m14's i could run at 100% INJ and it would still blow thro the temps as high as 1700+ :( well thats were I let off . With the 3 m14's I have the injection down to about 75% there was a slight ping at 100% but no white smoke. Seems like its good till about 3/4 throttle then it just goes into meltdown. The PPE adds some big fuel at the top end it seems. The max boost I ve seen is 36psi and have had the setting up and down. I have some more time today I'm gonna go change a few settings and see.
One thing is I have the pump and tank in the rear of the truck would this affect the pressure ? I'M gonna thro a gauge on a see whats up.
Next I'm goin to drop the tune down were the EGTS are better then giver some W/M and see what happens. I'll thro a few pics up of the install case anyone is interested:D
what kind of gauge are you going to put on. Brand and type?
 
#32 ·
Was out testing today here is some results..this is with a 50/50 mix
dropped the tune down a few notches today..

Level 3 PPE (160 FWHP) claimed
3m 14 nozzles
EGTS were the same if not higher
power gain was felt
Pump 100% with max 120 psi at eng before solenoids

Level 3
2 m 14 nozzles
EGT'S same really no different
Pump 100% with a max 150 psi
power gain was felt

Level 1
2 m 14 nozzles
EGT'S still the same
Pump 100% with a max at 150 psi
power was felt with this lower tune more than the level 3 tunes

Starting to second guess my EGT gauge its a edge probe with the dashhawk monitor....:confuzeld

Before I started I put guage on pump outlet and hit the TEST button at 49% INJ it read 80 psi.

could my PROBE be mounted improperly? its in the right hand manifold..

As the tunes come down so does the EGT'S . W/M only adds power and in some cases with the 50/50 mix adds EGT'S..

But this is with the PPE. maybe a different power adder would be totally different results..
Please chime in if you have any Ideas.. Maybe Dan will pipe up and set me straight..:D:D:D

Had a fast make shift gauge to measure PSI it was for gas oil or water..
 

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#34 ·
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