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CNG or Propane

23K views 64 replies 29 participants last post by  marcdeluca 
#1 ·
i heard of a lot of people running CNG or propane. which is petter for mileage, power, etc? which fuel is cheaper? what is the process for running them in my truck, what do i need? is it worth it?
 
#2 ·
Moved to Drugs!
 
#5 ·
Cng

Congrats, Its hard to believe until you do it yourself. At $1.36 it will add up in a hurry. Jeff
 
G
#6 ·
Those fuels vary widely on their cost and whether or not the local infrastructure even supports automotive CNG. For me, here in the Bluegrass, I ran the numbers and it simply wasn't worth it. But... there are others out where CNG is cheap and easily obtained that are doing very well with it.

Search out Marc Deluca out here in the Propane, Nitrous, & Water Meth section - he sells kits and can tell you all about it. Good luck!
 
#7 ·
lets see if we can get Banks in here to answer some questions. :cool:


:D
 
#9 ·
Compressed Natural Gas
 
#10 ·
Unless you buy propane in huge quantities, it is tough to get it cheap enough to save much anymore. CNG is alot cheaper, but more upfront investment is required. If you have no station near you, you can use a compressor if you heat with natural gas. If you don't have it in your home or a station near by, it isn't even an option.
 
#11 ·
I heat my home w/NG, how do you get a compressor to fill tanks, and is this leagal?
 
#12 ·
CNG on 01 LB7

Well Gents... I have gone Bi-Fuel (CNG/Diesel) with Marc DeLuca's kit and it performs. Have a 2001 LB7 2500HD Crew 4x4 SB with 105k ..miles all stock. Have the 1 generation Pullrite Super Glide 5th wheel hitch in back (350lbs). I have a new 21 GGE CNG composite tank installed in the bed (200lbs empty). Air Ride Airbags in the back.

Visited Marc this past labor day weekend to finish the install and do some testing. Got Marc's kit prior and did the install before the trip, but did not hook up. Just hooked everything up when I got to Marc's place and did some road CNG flow adjusting.

Well here is the summary of the return trip home after the weekend with Marc.... (clearly more power, turbo lag is GONE).

- Filled up to the rim on diesel, shaking the truck to get the air out of the tank as I filled as I always do.
- Only could get 3000 psi of possible 3600psi at the CNG station in Marc's town as it is all that it would provide that day.
- Outside temps we 85-90 all the way home.
- AC on full blast all the way (think I need a recharge as I used to freeze after about 1 hour of full AC).

Normally get 19-20 mpg at about 65-70mph with no AC on.

Totals:
- Return trip home was 253.8 miles
- Did get stuck in a traffic jam for about 30 minutes, and made one stop to a town for dinner.
- Diesel Fuel use = 4.07 Gallons (topped off diesel at my usual home station). The Diesel Guage never moved off "over-full reading).
- Diesel Fuel MPG = 62.36
- CNG USE 2500 PSI of 3000 total PSI at start of a 21 GGE tank.
This is where it gets tricky as a GGE is not quite the same as a true liquid gallon, and I did not get a full 3600psi fill in Marc's town to start.
Assuming a CNG use of 14 GGE / 258.3 = 18.45MPG

CNG here in Michigan is $1.95/GGE and Diesel is $4.20.

Still doing some fine tuning this week, and I believe I can get to the 25-30mpg hi-way combined.

My justification, for the CNG install....
I was going to buy a small used 4 banger to commute to work to get better mileage, but when you factor in the cost of a used small car, the insurance, the maintence on it, state plate fees, and the sheer fact I LIKE MY TRUCK AND LOVE TO DRIVE IT, and I tow a 14000lbs 5th wheel and still want to go on trips without breaking the bank..the math became simple for me....this is all I needed. Getting the 75-100 extra HP, no more turbo lag, and 100-200 more fbt.... Bonus ! I was going to get a bed diesel 2nd tank anyway... and I got a tank... just not a diesel one.
 
#60 ·
Well Gents... I have gone Bi-Fuel (CNG/Diesel) with Marc DeLuca's kit and it performs. Have a 2001 LB7 2500HD Crew 4x4 SB with 105k ..miles all stock. Have the 1 generation Pullrite Super Glide 5th wheel hitch in back (350lbs). I have a new 21 GGE CNG composite tank installed in the bed (200lbs empty). Air Ride Airbags in the back.

Visited Marc this past labor day weekend to finish the install and do some testing. Got Marc's kit prior and did the install before the trip, but did not hook up. Just hooked everything up when I got to Marc's place and did some road CNG flow adjusting.

Well here is the summary of the return trip home after the weekend with Marc.... (clearly more power, turbo lag is GONE).

- Filled up to the rim on diesel, shaking the truck to get the air out of the tank as I filled as I always do.
- Only could get 3000 psi of possible 3600psi at the CNG station in Marc's town as it is all that it would provide that day.
- Outside temps we 85-90 all the way home.
- AC on full blast all the way (think I need a recharge as I used to freeze after about 1 hour of full AC).

Normally get 19-20 mpg at about 65-70mph with no AC on.

Totals:
- Return trip home was 253.8 miles
- Did get stuck in a traffic jam for about 30 minutes, and made one stop to a town for dinner.
- Diesel Fuel use = 4.07 Gallons (topped off diesel at my usual home station). The Diesel Guage never moved off "over-full reading).
- Diesel Fuel MPG = 62.36
- CNG USE 2500 PSI of 3000 total PSI at start of a 21 GGE tank.
This is where it gets tricky as a GGE is not quite the same as a true liquid gallon, and I did not get a full 3600psi fill in Marc's town to start.
Assuming a CNG use of 14 GGE / 258.3 = 18.45MPG

CNG here in Michigan is $1.95/GGE and Diesel is $4.20.

Still doing some fine tuning this week, and I believe I can get to the 25-30mpg hi-way combined.

My justification, for the CNG install....
I was going to buy a small used 4 banger to commute to work to get better mileage, but when you factor in the cost of a used small car, the insurance, the maintence on it, state plate fees, and the sheer fact I LIKE MY TRUCK AND LOVE TO DRIVE IT, and I tow a 14000lbs 5th wheel and still want to go on trips without breaking the bank..the math became simple for me....this is all I needed. Getting the 75-100 extra HP, no more turbo lag, and 100-200 more fbt.... Bonus ! I was going to get a bed diesel 2nd tank anyway... and I got a tank... just not a diesel one.
I know post is old. Don't get bent. I did a search and found it :D

By my math, you saved $16 on that trip. What was the cost of the kit and installation fee?
 
#13 ·
Cng

Hello Louie, Glad to see you are trying Marc's kit. It it amazing what that simple little kit will do. I still smile everytime I think about my first trip with Marc and the look on my face when I filled it back up. I think Marc's kit is the best unkeeped secret out there. Jeff
 
#14 ·
LMM compatable???

With all of the new sensors and computers in the LMM, will dumping CNG or propane into the engine throw codes? I'd like to invest in this system, but not at the risk running non-stock tunes and programers to clear codes. Seems like running CNG/propane with B100 would fix the DPF regen issue of inadaquate EGT as well.
 
#17 ·
No, it doesn't work on naturally aspirated diesels in vehicles. It will work okay on stationary engines that are constant rpm.
 
#18 ·
Marc, do you use the kind of regulators the forklifts use, because I think it can be used on n/a engines as well.

Here in Europe LPG is mainly used in gassers and most of them are n/a though they can achieve higher vacuum due to the throttle.

I guess you can overcome this problem by maxing out the regulator. On my regulator I can change the pressure of the lpg and the strength of the diaphragm's spring. I can increase the lpg flow by maxing out the pressure and making the spring weaker. I also have an "adjuster" inline with the lpg hose that goes into the intake. YOu can max that out as well, or if you're using an orifice have a larger hole.
 
#19 ·
The problem is that with a naturally aspirated diesel, the airflow is rpm dependent, not load dependent. This makes it difficult to deliver enough gas at heavy load w/o overloading it at light load. It can be done, but you need to use a throttle valve on the vapor line. I haven't bothered to do it because there are so few vehicles that are n/a anymore.
 
G
#22 ·
If I were a betting man, I'd bet on CNG infrastructure being available way sooner than hydrogen... simply because there's more immediate usefulness in it. But... there's just not enough overall adoption of the technology in the average vehicle on the road at this point.

BTW, for those of you who have CNG infrastructure in place in your area... how long does it take to fill your CNG tank? Is it comparable to filling your diesel tank? Or... do you have to plan to eat dinner while it fills?

One other question. If everyone were to standardize on forklift tanks (just for discussion sake) such that you could swap out tanks like you can today your BBQ grill tank at Wally World or anywhere else - just remove the empty and swap a full one - how much distance are you likely to get out of such a tank with a system like Marc's? I'm wondering if one tank would do you, or if you'd have to have a "tank farm" in the back of your truck...
 
#23 ·
BTW, for those of you who have CNG infrastructure in place in your area... how long does it take to fill your CNG tank? Is it comparable to filling your diesel tank? Or... do you have to plan to eat dinner while it fills?

I bought a used cargo van today that is CNG. It has 20 gallon capacity and I was only able to get 15 into it, took about 8 minutes at public station. Here is Utah CNG is .86 a gallon so 15 gallons cost $13 and change - I left with a big Ol smile!
 
#24 ·
Filling my 21 GGE CNG tank here in Detroit at Michigan Consolidated Gas Company's Public Facility takes less time than to fill my 26 gal Diesel tank. $1.95/GGE here.....Fill-up less than $40. (Diesel $4.10/gal here at the low end and to $4.29 avg other places)

(Marc: Still got 1/2 a tank reading on the guage for Diesel (26 gallon tank) on that fill-up that I bought in your town 10 days ago, minus the 4.07 gallons I bought here. ... now 390 miles more after I got back home. .. mostly city driving. Looks like this is currently headed toward about 1 diesel tank to 4 CNG tanks ratio .. diesel 26 gal tank to CNG 21 GGE tank... maybe 1 to 5. Still have about 1/2 a CNG Tank (1500psi) on my 2nd CNG fill......We'll see ... Hard to keep my foot out of the go peddle though.... ;-) ... )
 
#26 ·
Randy ... I would not run the risk of using a non-DOT approved tank (such as a fork-lift tank). My truck is getting a lot of attention just driving around town. It only takes one officer having a bad day, and you caught with your foot into the peddle and any number of bad nasties can take over. But this is just my 2 bits... Also you are dealing with 3000 - 3600 psi of CNG. You really need to ensure the quality of the tank you use ...
 
#28 ·
I haven't ever seen any cng tanks that are swappable. They are so heavy that it isn't practical. The ASME tanks are incredibly heavy, like oxygen cylinders.
 
G
#29 ·
I knew the ASME tanks were not practical - I've seen pics of some of those - they look like they would take up the whole front end of the bed of the truck.

How much does a filled forklift tank weigh? And how much gas do they hold?
 
#32 ·
Will this work on a cummins? I drive a dedicated cng f150 here in Ut. When I bought it fuel was .69 a gge now it's up to .87. Still a great deal and plenty of places to fill up but the demand is growing and the station pressure is showing it. Someday I will put in a home fueling station which from what I understand the feds will give a 1k tax credit for.
 
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