Picked up my 2003 dually this week from Inglewood Trans. Mike L. did a great job! (I think I drove him nuts though as I called him daily to make sure my truck was inside at night.. Happy to report that truck was in perfect condition when I picked it up. Heck, they even wiped down the trans cross member and surrounding area near the trans, it never looked so good underneath!)


Look at the photos of the C3 and 4 frictions and steels! I have only used level 5 six times (twice at the track, four times on the street doing tests). So much for the Edges claim that their unit senses slippage. I love the Edge box, but would not recommend going even to the 90 hp level on the stock unit. I drive this truck extremely easy and was surprised at the 3 and 4 clutches condition. I ended up going the Suncoast triple lock, transgo and a new deep sump pan. Truck runs much better now, extremely happy with the shifting pattern, firmness, and tighter converter. Thanks Mike!


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/43A_Untitled-2.jpg


Mike L. on the right, that's me on the left with the wad of bills in fanny pack prior to paying for the new goodies.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/B95_Untitled-5.jpg


Note BLACK burn marks on frictions. All of the C3 and 4's were burned, as well as the steels.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/829_Untitled-4.jpg


Black circles on steels show heat marks.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/FZ1_Untitled-1.jpg


New deep dump pan.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifEdited by: hasselbach

Ahh, the joy of a modded tranny. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif


I am not sure what was more burnt, my clutches and steels or my wallet! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

Speaking of empty wallets....what does all that work roughly cost? $3000? $4000?


Tom http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Pig.gif

Since I'm looking at the same thing if I can figure out the single versus triple torque converter, I'm most interested in what it wound up being as well...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


That is if Mike or you don't mind?


I'm starting to check trans shops around here and so far I've not found one who's done Allisons, let alone mods. While a trip to Inglewood is not out of the question, I'd rather not...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


Suncoast shows the Stage III kit at $2195.00 plus $265.00 for the pan. If what I'm hearing about the torque deal with the single versus triple is true, I'd just as leave have the single if it will hold things and it's $300.00 less money. Since mine is a 4x4 and will be getting off road, I'm not really too interested in the deep pan either.


Thanks


Oh, BIG question, how do you like it?

So far so good with regards to liking the change. I pull a 4 horse trailer which weighs 13,000 loaded. Since I live in the mountains, you can really feel that weight when towing. Towed the horses to an event Saturday and you can definitely feel the converter now lock up, plus the shifting is much firmer now without being too harsh. Before in tow mode the lock up was somewhat mushy.





For the converter, Transgo, Clutches, Deep pan, plus installation it was in the low $3,000 range. After seeing my damaged clutches, I can honesty guarantee the most of you that are running some type of HP box probably have clutches like mine or worse. (since I drive mine pretty light). I'll be taking it to the track in a few weeks and will post the results compared to my last event. Hopefully the air will be close to previous trip.

As for the comments on transmission protect:





There has to be a threshold for slippage. If set too tight, it will not perform well, and if set too loose it will burn things up. Basically it's not so much IF you cross the threshold, it's how many times you cross it. Also, when the TCC is unlocked, I don't believe that anybody is monitoring slip. May be wrong but...





The Juice will now perform MUCH better, especially in 5th gear! You should do well at the track with the upgrades.





PS. now you see why I recommend trans upgrades for anything over 90-100HP or so...

Hey Kennedy,


You've been around these mods, mind if I ask about your thoughts on single disk versus triple disk torque converters?


I'm not getting too much feedback on that question, maybe it's because no one's really gotten into it that much.


I'm thinking that if there is much of a difference in the low end torque between the two, I'd be better off with a single. I'm not really looking for killer drag mods, just a Juice and not worry about the trans.


Is a single going to hold that?


I'm thinking Suncoast Stage III with a single converter?


The extra $300.00 doesn't bother me if that's what is needed, or if there's really no appreciable difference in the torque.

My OPINION is that the triple disk may have some advantages with extremely high power setups, but the reality is that I think most mfr's have added the triple disk as a perception deal to "keep up with the Jones's" You know, it's just a 3 is better than 1 philosophy when in reality, one is likely well beyond adequate. It's often easier to give in and comply rather than argue...





Ask Joe personally. I'm quite confident he'll agree.

I am just waiting for the chips to pay for the upgrade - will make the trek to Mike, as anyone who can overhaul the Mercedes-Benz trannys is way good. What do you do with your horses?

What do you do with your horses?


Good question... Typically feed them 3 times a day, clean up after them 2 times a day, brush them once a day, spend money on them daily that I could be spending on my truck and house... Oh yeah, once and a while I actually ride them...

Zeeb.....like I said in the other thread....it is NOT the fact that you have a single or triple disc that makes you lose low end torque....it is the DESIGN of the converter.


The hype of losing low end seems to be swaying your decision....TRUST ME....you will have plenty of power to overcome a slight loss, if there is any at all. People have a tendency to trust the butt dyno.....I am not saying that some converters don't loose low end....I am just saying that you are splitting hairs.......Order the level 3 and be done with it.....how much better does your truck ride after you wash it.....feels like it runs smoother too, huh???http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

I lost no low end torque as far as I can tell, in fact, the converter feels much better (less slippage) when not locked up. For the extra $300, I'd recommend the triple lock. Cheap insurance.

I lost no low end torque as far as I can tell, in fact, the converter feels much better (less slippage) when not locked up. For the extra $300, I'd recommend the triple lock. Cheap insurance.


....There you go Zeeb.....straight from the horses mouth...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

BIG DIPPER is in rare form today.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif Good one George.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


This afternoon was the first time I spoke to Tim Hasselbach since we worked on his Ally. He likes the converter and found no low end loss. He knows his truck better than anyone so I waited for his feedback before saying anything. The Suncoast felt pretty good on the low end to me. Tim is the ultimate test. Tim also knows alot about converters because of his racing backround and testing so many different brands in his race cars, so I take his coments at full value. Thanks Tim.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


mike

Good info, thanks for posting. I do have a couple questions.


How do the clutches from a tranny that has not seen a box look during teardown?


How about the clutches form a stock truck that has done a lot of heavy towing?


Blaine

Come on guys, I'm saying it's BS that the 125 HP juice and a couple passes did that to his clutches. I say it was the towing the 13K trailer that caused it and that's how the clutches would look from a stock trans used for hauling with no box.


Prove me wrong....................

Come on guys, I'm saying it's BS that the 125 HP juice and a couple passes did that to his clutches. I say it was the towing the 13K trailer that caused it and that's how the clutches would look from a stock trans used for hauling with no box.


Prove me wrong....................





Well, actually you are wrong http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif (at least in my set up), because my 2001 dually duramax had 80,000 miles on it (all towing same trailer just about 100% of the time, taking my daughter across the country to horse races) When we went into the trans, it was perfect. I never hooked a box up on that truck... It was bone stock. (well, not counting the hair dryer under the hood..)


Tim 1


AFP1 0Edited by: hasselbach

Thank You!! Though I am irritated I had to poke someone in the eye to get a response. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif My first attempt at being polite received no response.......................


This topic needs to be explored some more and I am glad you brought it to our attention.


So explain exaxctly what has happened to your truck and what you have done. So far you say you had 80K with no box and you went into the tranny and it was perfect.


At 80K, why did you go into the tranny if it was perfect? Did you have any symtoms like slipping or limp mode?


When did you install the Juice?


Did you ever put it in limp with the Juice?


What symptoms did you have that made you want to tear into your tranny after installing the Juice?


BlaineEdited by: afp1

afp1


I ended up selling the truck to my neighbor.. A few weeks later the tranny pump began singing, so he pulled the trans and when it was apart, he had someone do a quick check on it. Not sure why the pump was making noise, but everything inside looked normal.


The truck was a company work truck and we never really had any problems with it.

Tim,


Okay. You had an '01 with 80K that you hauled heavy with and sold to your neighbor. He started hearing noises from the tranny, tore it down, and everything looked fine.


Then you got an '03 and put on Juice w/Attitude. You decided to upgrade the tranny, and when you did the installer found the burned clutches.


Just so you know, I believe the tranny upgrade is the right thing to do and will be doing mine eventually. What I am trying to sort out it whether or not your burned clutches with the Attitude are the norm or just an unusual occurrence with your truck. Since we don't have a bunch of guys with boxes tearing down their trannys, we are lacking in data right now. So in an attempt for us to thoroughly think through this, please help me with the following questions about your '03. Depending on how and what we come up with here will determine how soon I'll do the tranny mods.


1. How many miles did you have on your truck (running the Juice Attitude) when you tore down the tranny?


2. Did you have normal Juice with Attitude (125 HP), or Hot Juice with Attitude (145 HP)?


3. What level did you normally have the Attitude set to?


4. What low fuel boost level did you have set?


5. Did you have the Attitude set to defuel all shifts, no shifts, or just the 4-5 shift?


6. What did Edge say about your burned clutches?


Blaine

afp 1 believe me I'm behind you on this but semi silent till now ...


Lets be straight first .... Edge is aware and ask you to sign a waiver as they know the 125 HP is beyond the capabilities of the stock Allison so user beware ...


That was also prior to the release of the Attitude and user adjust ability ...So to bark at EDGE so much for not detecting slippage is an improper yet bold statement ... Edge keeps the shift defuel , it doesn't back down if slippage is or has occurred ..... The TCM moniters Input output shaft speed and detects slippage but slippage will occur first ,before the ECM reacts ,no crystal ball here ... If a clutch can't hold up in this case C2 and C3 ,overdrive ,that is a transmission weakness an upgrade address's ....


I'm assuming the C3 is the darker of the two pics above ... C4 is only used in second gear ,not much of a worry there at the power level your at,Hot Juice ...If C3 looks better then C4 then you have other issues ...


I do see some darking but far from what I would call "burnt" .... That is certainly not at a danger gotta do soon upgrade but certainly you were on your way ...


It's obvious to me you had defuel off (a no no in a stock tranny ) and probably low boost fuel set a min ...


I also, although you said you used level 5 only 5 times, with the above settings set the way I assume and your pushing it hard in Overdrive may have accelerated the darking of the clutchs in level 4 also...


I haven't heard you say you ever neutralized your truck while on the go peddle .... Have you ??


I wouldn't blame Edge or suggest fault on them for this ...





Mac





Edited for clarity ,,Edited by: Mackin

It just comes down to one thing- there is no free lunch. throw more power at the ally and it will happen. granted depending on what you run it may take more or less time, but more power will accelerate wear..

Right on DP ...


Playing above 90 ish power (depending on product) may result in buying a Lunch or two while you await your tranny upgrade completion ...


Look at the LLY guys pushing the 120 at the Allison ,not looking promising ...


I have also said ,never proven,that the more GM tweaked the Allison drive ability consumer concerns the weaker the holding capacity became ...Still I have only had TCM recalibration "package" to excite OD lock out ...


Proof is when I see an 03 Dually go down with a 10 th of what I've done with my 01 ...





Mac

Nick


You said it best." There is no free lunch" Power breaks or wears things out. It seems that some of you guys have not kept up with some of my posts. Every Ally that I have torn down has had the C3 and C4 piston in the wrong position as far as the lube hole, squirt hole, whatever you want to call it. Most of the C3 and C4 clutch lube slots were not lined up in conjunction with the lube hole. Normaly, I don't think this would mean too much on a stock truck,but, how many of us have a stock truck? We also are blessed with mother TCM which can't seem to make up her mind how to shift, over protective and programed by geeks that drive hondas. Lets say you have a program and no trans mod; lets say your driving for this particular week will be a lot of stop and go. TCM is trimming down pressure; now you nail the pedal cause you finally get a chance and enjoy the feeling. Your trans just slipped cause the TCM did not know you were going to do that. It was not prepared to boost the pressure up so fast. That was an oops. That was one of your nine lives down the drain for which ever clutch slipped. Hasselbach's C3, and C4 were not burnt because of his load or abuse. He just plain snuck up on his TCM when he nailed the throttle and the TCM told the Ally to take a hike. With the Transgo shift kit, you are able to sneak up on the TCM, drop its drawers (it won't know what hit it) and you guys know what happens next.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


mike

Mike, is the 90 HP 4.61 version causing a problem for the Allison? I occasionally do just what you described but do not run it hard in 5th. I do work it hard towing but only set on level 2. Later! Frank

Mike, is the 90 HP 4.61 version causing a problem for the Allison? I occasionally do just what you described but do not run it hard in 5th. I do work it hard towing but only set on level 2. Later! Frank





This is exactly why I get involved,but hate to .... How about the lower tunes and other programs offered to the public ??


We push and push upgrades and the guy who is towing his fiver with 30-40-50 additional power is afraid to use it for fear of burning up his transmission ...


Interpretation isn't ever clear as to the break off point ... It is a PROVEN fact the Juice 90 HP MAX is one of the STOCK ALLISON freindly products available for PLUG and Play on the market....


Frank you are fine enjoy ....Get a hold of Jebar ,Jim , he is having a blast with his big JUICED dually and is on the road as we speak traveling and towing in safe lower towing levels ...





Mac





Edited by: Mackin

Mike L wrote: "Lets say you have a program and no trans mod; lets say your driving for this particular week will be a lot of stop and go. TCM is trimming down pressure; now you nail the pedal cause you finally get a chance and enjoy the feeling. Your trans just slipped cause the TCM did not know you were going to do that. It was not prepared to boost the pressure up so fast. That was an oops. That was one of your nine lives down the drain for which ever clutch slipped."


Sounds like poor program design (TCM) from my perspective. The ECM is communicating constantly with the TCM on the CAN bus. It is telling the TCM what torque level the engine is making. So I am not sure how one could "sneak up" on the TCM. The TCM knows you have just nailed the throttle and are no longer just coasting around town. It "should know" at this point to raise the pressures for the upcoming shift. Like I said, poor program design if this is what is happening.


Looks like Diesel Tech needs to get inside the TCM code. Edited by: OC_DMAX

Thanks Mac. The only slippage I have noticed is with the rear tires. Later! Frank http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

1. How many miles did you have on your truck (running the Juice Attitude) when you tore down the tranny?19,000 miles


2. Did you have normal Juice with Attitude (125 HP), or Hot Juice with Attitude (145 HP)? 125 hp Juice


3. What level did you normally have the Attitude set to? 3 not towing, 1 towing


4. What low fuel boost level did you have set? middle of the setting.


5. Did you have the Attitude set to defuel all shifts, no shifts, or just the 4-5 shift? YES, DEFUEL ALL SHIFTS.


6. What did Edge say about your burned clutches? I DIDN'T CALL THEM BECAUSE I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS THEIR PROBLEM. I WAS FULLY AWARE OF THE RISK THAT I WAS TAKING


7. I NEVER POWER BRAKED THE TRUCK, I DRIVE IT LIKE AN OLD MAN.


Blaine Edited by: hasselbach

Well if we go along with Mike's thoery about the TCM being slow to respond to changing power levels (which my own experience tends to support) then driving it like an old man could be part of the problem. I have a suncoast level II or what was the level II last year....and I drive the sh*t out of my truck everyday, tires that I got 60k out of last set are bald @ 35K this time. The shifts are firm and quick with no flare or harshness unless the truck is stone cold. And no slip indicated on the attitiude.


If someone else drives it they are certainly more kind than I am and the tranny shifts weird for a couple days when i get it back. I feel this TCM is messing with us if we are not consistent with our driving habits........I am.................balls out 24/7...........keeps things simple....................and fun.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif

Mackin,


I assume by being behind me you mean you concur with my efforts to nail this down.................


I don't think Tim was blaming Edge, he's just saying our tranny is not as well protected as we all thought it was.


And I only made an aggressive statement to generate interest and get us all discussing this. This thread was dying.........I am very glad Tim took the time to post with pics, now we all need to analyze this and other data.


In the meantime, I took my Juice of of 5 and put it on 4. I have had the Attitude for 5 months, and yes, a few times I got on it hard. However, I have not done any full-stall 4x4 launches on level 5, though I did do a few on level 4 a while back--had normal Juice for a year+ prior to adding the attitude. BTW, my truck seems to run smoother in every condition on level 4 vs level 5. The only advantage for level 5 is when I want to accelerate hard past 70 mph, which isn't really a requirement in street driving.


My biggest concern here is what are the symptoms of a tranny going bad? Edge says it is when you put it in the limp mode all the time. What have you guys seen?


Tim,


Was your tranny in the '03 doing anything funny when you decided to install the upgrades?


Blaine

Blaine


Yes were on the same page ...


If he isn't blaming Edge it looked like it in his original post ....


Edge developed the 90 Juice to work and stay thru R&D with in the capabilities of the Allison transmission ....Mimicked but not duplicated on plug and play ...


Every thing changed with the inception of the Hot Juice which was fairly safe until the Attitude was released with user options .....


So we all are responsible for our own actions ...





Heres what I "think" I know ... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif


The defuel in shifts is there to protect the clutches when they are most vulnerable, in an exchange ...Most don't like the feeling and deactivate .... A NO NO with a stock Allison ,period ...


Once a clutch is applied it's applied ... It seems the only clutch pack that has a problem holding once applied is C3 ... This is also the least capacity or smallest as in clutch surface available ...


Holding capacity is diminished at above 90 HP ...


So what does it all mean leave the defuel on if you have a stock tranny and use the levels above 90 sparingly until you have the funds to upgrade ...


So YES the EDGE JUICE does protect your tranny very well as it was ORIGINALLY designed ... Do to our peer pressure and competition they turned up the POWER to be competitive and eliminated the defuel (option) with the Attitude ...


The end result is you can damage your equipment as with other products on the market if used in the same way as THEY were designed ...


I hope this helps you all understand it a little bit more ... Alot of individuals have come in very late in the picture ...


I was in from the beginning as many others ....


Edge's hired gun,not ..... Oh I wish I was ....


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif








Once you get your tranny done there is plenty of power to be had .... Look for an updated SIG soon .... Oh what a tease ...http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifEdited by: Mackin

From a member received TODAY and just read .....


You know I run in the 125 mode on the juice for over a year with no problemo's.I gas it a lot but don't beat the sh*t out of it.


This is a NON Attitude Juice in a 02 ....This Guy tows a 42 foot (Lightning) boat regularly, I will add ...





Dennis (PM oringinator)I'll be back at you ,just busy Bro ... Off to the Dyno tomorrow ... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif





Mac


Edited by: Mackin

I ONLY RAN LEVEL 5 A FEW TIMES AT THE TRACK. I ALWAYS DEFUELED ON ALL SHIFTS.


I didn't feel anything wrong with the trans, but felt the upgraded TQ and shift kit was well worth the peace of mind.


I don't blame EDGE at all, just the same at NOS when I juiced my play car. I have personally rebuilt my Turbo 400 on my blown alcohol race car numerous times, and felt the frictions in the Allison showed more abuse than the race car. I can only attribute this to weak pressures and soft timing of the shift pattern with the stock programing.


I am very happy with the new trans upgrade, the new converter locks up so much tighter now, whereas you barely felt the lock up before. IMO, I think its the BEST investment next to a fuel filter on these truck, hands down!


(well, the HE turbo with the INVERTER OPTION may be a good investment too....)

Funny thing is Hasslebach your post said differently as far as defuel ...


Guess I should have quoted you ,huh ??


Edited by hasselbach on 06 June 2004 at 12:23am

Make up your mind ....





Mac Edited by: Mackin

From a member received TODAY and just read .....


You know I run in the 125 mode on the juice for over a year with no problemo's.I gas it a lot but don't beat the sh*t out of it.


This is a NON Attitude Juice in a 02 ....This Guy tows a 42 foot (Lightning) boat regularly, I will add ...





Dennis (PM oringinator)I'll be back at you ,just busy Bro ... Off to the Dyno tomorrow ... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif





Mac


Lucky Dog.............http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

Funny thing is Hasslebach your post said differently as far as defuel ...


Guess I should have quoted you ,huh ??



Make up your mind ....





Mac





Really, show me where I said differently.. I'll say it now as I said before, "I always defueled between shifts..." You must be sniffing burnt transfluid if you think otherwise..http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

While your busy back tracking and editing in this late hour why don't you take care of this false statement .....


"So much for the Edges claim that their unit senses slippage. "





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

Mac,


If it's not burnt transynd, maybe it's fresh NOS you've been sniffing?...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif


He never said anything about not de-fueling between shifts. I think Hasselbach has been more than accomodating with his orgininal post and anwers to questions put to him in a manner, I would not have appreciated.


If there's one thing I've learned from all the questions I've asked and others have been kind enough to try and answer, it's that there are no definitives when it comes to Ally upgrades...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


If Blaine doesn't like the answers, or lack of, perhaps he ought to ask a different question or on a different place.


But that's just my two cents worth.

No Nox I'm not giggling ... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif





If it wasn't changed so be it I only skimmed over the post and I see it was edited very late on ,draws a red flag in my book ...


My point is if anyone ups the bar over 90 HP (activate or over ride defuel shifts via chip or add on device )you have to accept the consequences don't mention the manufacture as point a POSSIBLE blame too if you do ....


I would also like the Tranny upgrade people to be clear on WHERE and at WHAT power level the ALLISON begins to struggle with holding ...


If this was clear then Blaine and Frank wouldn't have to worry and many more that are afraid to speak up ...


Right ??Can you see my point ??





Mac


Edited by: Mackin

Oh yeah, I can see your point...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif


It's exactly the one I've been trying to locate since I tried the Juice Beta on level 5...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


All I'm saying is that there doesn't seem to be one, so each of us has to be responsible for doing our own research, picking a mod, a manufacter, and living with the choices.


I don't see any value in getting confrontational over a subject that is, by it's very nature, based on personal opinions.

I don't mean to be conformational ...


That's my point people have to be carefully how things are and CAN BE interpreted ...


Case and point "So much for Edge" and "Every Ally that I have torn down has had the C3 and C4 piston in the wrong position as far as the lube hole, squirt hole, whatever you want to call it. Normaly, I don't think this would mean too much on a stock truck,but, how many of us have a stock truck?"...


Are very vague open for ,you name it ,or what we have here ....





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gifEdited by: Mackin

Mac, I edited a mis spelled word late in the evening. (changed 'cicn't' to 'didn't')


I was only posting my findings, not sure why you are so confrontation with my post. (especially since you have the distinction of being a 'staff' member, how encouraging on your part to those that are posting to this forum, but seeing some of your past responses, I guess its your typical reply if you don't like the information).


I took a few photos of what was found in my trans, and stated how I used the truck, period. I'm not in the trans business and am not trying to promote anyones products. Now I may re-edit this post later if I see I spelled a word wronng, so put your red flags away.


Sorry but I didn't record every single time I jumped on my truck, I guess I should have kept clear and concise recored of each time I drove the truck, what level I was in, and how much throttle I used. Let's see, drove to the store to pick up beer on June 1st, drove it in level one.. Air temps 76 degrees, slight grade to the store. 50% throttle with wind coming out of the east.. Is that better?


I reread my post and didn't see any strong criticism of the EDGE product other than 'so much for sensing slippage'. My clutches showed strong evidence of slippage so a rational person would deduce that the trans was in fact slipping.


Then comparing my old truck without any BOX installed, and seeing the condition of it after 80k miles, gee, I deduce that maybe these wonder boxes cause some problems with the stock Allison.


In any event, the $3k I spent was well worth it in my application. Whether you agree with it, or don't, I really don't care, but don't post a reply that states I'm either lying or changing my story.


Tim


PS, I think you meant 'confrontational' in your last post, not conformational. Oh and gee, look below, an edit... must have fixed a few words in my original post.Edited by: hasselbach

If Blaine doesn't like the answers, or lack of, perhaps he ought to ask a different question or on a different place.


But that's just my two cents worth.





What are you talking about? I asked politely, was ignored, stirred the pot and explained why I did so, and now we are having an excellent discussion and getting good answers to questions.


Internet posts are nearly always received in the worst possible light even when composed with the best of intentions. Such are the limitations of the written word. I have been posting a long time on various forums, and I have seen a lot of flame wars. This is not one, not even close.


I don't see where anyone is being personally insulting or getting their feelings hurt. Yes, a couple posts are a bit aggressive, but in person I am sure they wouldn't seem so.


I personally have thanked Tim for posting this, and I know many others are grateful as well. He has made us aware of a potential problem many of us didn't fully understand.


While I am personally grateful to Tim for posting his experiences, that doesn't mean I accept all of his or anyone else's conclusions on the issue. While it is wrong to personally attack someone's character, attacking their ideas is fair game. Conducting a polite debate is an excellent way to fully explore a topic, and we all need to be able to agreeably disagree.


None of us really know the answers here, we are just speculating from a very limited data sample. Now that Tim has explained a little more, it makes more sense. We really need a bunch more guys to post what they have seen.


So far, it appears that Juice on level 5 can indeed slip the clutches too much without going into limp mode. We don't know if driving it hard vs soft will affect that. We also don't know if the clutches he's shown us are really a problem. We don't know how long they would have lasted looking the way they do. We don't know if Edge is right when they told me that you don't have a tranny problem unless you are constantly putting your tranny in limp mode. I have never put my tranny in limp, but it also appears Tim didn't put the tranny on his '03 in limp, but his clutches still slipped a bit. Since he made the upgrade pro-actively, not based on having any symptoms, it makes me wonder how many trannys are out there with slightly burned clutches that haven't had any problems.


As for me, I am no longer running on level 5. I have low fuel boost set on 5, and I have defuel set for the 4-5 shift only. I am not yet convinced that it's all that easy to slip the clutches from 1-2, 2-3, and 3-4. However, that is based on Edge's info.............


From talking to Edge a while back, they led me to believe 125 HP, defueling on the 4-5 shift, and no full-stall 4x4 launches was all that was needed to protect the tranny. On their website, they say the Allison will handle over 900 ft lbs during 1-2, 2-3, and 3-4 shifts. In fact, they say they were not able to get the clutches to slip at all during those shifts. Here is a quote from: http://www.edgeproductsinc.com/chevy_duramax.html


"When the torque converter clutch is engaged, fifth gear on the Allison 1000 transmission will hold about 680 foot pounds of torque before slipping. Gears 2-4 with the torque converter clutch engaged have never slipped in Edge’s testing. (We have tested over 900 foot pounds of torque with no slippage). Without the sophisticated transmission monitoring that the Juice performs, the total power increase would need to be limited to the weakest conditions to prevent “limp mode”."


In light of Tim's experiences, this may not be true. Conversely, there may be some merit to the drive easy and surprise the tranny. John Kennedy's website shows and

Amen AFP1

Tim,


I liked your post and pics and didn't see anything wrong with what you said.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif


Blaine stirred the pot like he said and got the desired result.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


Mac have another beer you seem a little out of sorts.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wacko.gif


Blake

I guess I don't have a right to an opinion while being on the staff ....


I stand by what I posted ... The Edge Juice set in the 125 setting can and will do damage to your transmission .... Also if you defuel shifts you are at risk also ....


I don't see myself as coming of confrontational I supplied you with valuable info take it or leave it ....


Ask Frank why he is looking different at the usage of his NON ATTITUDE Edge box in a different way if everything was CLEAR ...Ask many reading members here that are afraid to speak up ...


When I see the hit count come up and not many responces I go Hmmm ...


Like Blaine says sometimes you have to poke a stick to get somewhere,difference I'm not apologizing for a topic started such as without serious time spent clarifying without prodding to the originator ...You wanna make me take the hit ,no problem'o ...


Topic: ATTENTION EDGE OWNERS, GOT my Allison upgraded today, see PHOTOS!








Going to play Dodge Ball ....





Mac





Edited by: Mackin

I was only posting my findings, not sure why you are so confrontation with my post.


PS, I think you meant 'confrontational' in your last post, not conformational.


People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.....If the spell check deal ever comes to, you can take advantage of it as well as point out others mistakes.


I also took your post as flaming the Juice for not monitoring tranny slippage. Compare a Juice 125 to a Quad 135 and see whose trans dies first. The Juice will back off just as a stock trans will.....that's right a STOCK TRANS. The Juice senses the slip and defuels as well as defueling before shifts to allow proper clutch engagement. The Quad and a few others don't and that is more likely the reason we are hearing about more and more tranny slipping. The 90hp Juice is the safest upgrade as it doesn't push the limits and monitors slippage. When we were at the other site, we pushed for more power...Edge answered, but required a waiver signature....just as TTS does. Seems they must have a clue of what's going on and don't want to hear the masses in an uproar.


....I thought the hp ratings for the Allison 1000 were something like 365....I could be wrong and I am not going to take the time to look as I don't need it...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif....but believe Suncoast used to have the limits they found in their ad. Add to that the fact that you pull a trailer and you make yourself a sitting duck.....A Juice box normally produces more than the advertised number......incase you didn't know.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


....on edit...I have had a truck that would hold a 125 Juice fine and then traded for one that wouldn't .....I doubt that I ever tow as heavy as you though.Edited by: BIG DIPPER

Guys,


Very interesting thread.......


I too have been looking for the "threshold" for HP added to a stock tranny that won't cause severe damage. I think it is important to keep things in perspective thou.... We all knew when we plugged the juice with the attitude to our trucks that there was the potential for damage to the tranny, or we should have..... Did anyone bother to read the agreement/warning that the attitude required us to push the "enter" button the 1st 4 times the truck was started with the attitude connected?


I for one plan on upgrading just to be safe, avoid any problems in the future, and use level 5 without worryhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif but have been putting off the tranny upgrade for a couple of reasons, money and time.


I contacted Mike L. to see what the teardown and re-build time would be, 2 days... Getting to his shop is not the problem (30 miles down the road). Others have made much farther road trips to have their tranny's done (I think Hasselbach came from AZ?). The problem is the downtime.... I use my truck everyday for work.....


When you cut through all the BS all I am really looking for is what level is "safe" (I use this term very loosely) to use until I can find the time to upgrade the trans.... that is all. I believe this is what the "others" are looking for as well.....


stepping off the soapbox now...................

If you rod the pee out of any car or truck it won't last as long.I think we all agree on that.


Mac, how many miles on your truck before your suncoast upgrade?(I'm to lazy to go look around with the search)I have this mental picture of daily powerbrake dually roasting "strip shows" but how did you really drive it day in day out?I run around in level 4 hot all the time but drive fairly easy most of the time and I wonder how long it'll be till "S" day!


Any power adder will decrease the life of all drivetrain components.(if you are using the extra power)


There is no such thing as bulletproof.


Blake


Edited by: NWDmax

I bought my 3500 with 41,000 on it.I talked to the previous owner & he towed a 24' contractors trailer fully loaded everyday from the day he bought the truck.The truck was stock.When I bought it I took the Hot Juice off my 2500 had it upgraded to Attitude & put it on the 3500.Ran on level 3 most of time & level 4 once in a while in town.The first time I put it on 4 while on the road to pass a line of cars I "zinged" it,not a "limp",when it down shifted from O/D.Same thing happened the next time I tried it.I also tow a 11,000 5th wheel toyhauler on level 2 no problems.I don't know if towing all those miles helped to cause the slippage or not ,but I'm sure it didn't help.It doesn't have the same power in 4-5 that it did have before this,damage is already done I'm sure.As soon as I sell one of my bikes it looks like I'll be taking a trip to north Florida to see Joe.


FWIW,when I had the Hot Juice on my 2500 without Attitude I ran it on 3-4 all the time.with no problem....that I know of.

I'll say it again because some may take it that I am slamming EDGE...


I love my box, and am not saying EDGE has a problem. I fully figured that I would have to upgrade the transmission when I got my EDGE unit. I was only passing on what my transmission looked like when Mike L. did his superb work on the Allison.


So much for don't shoot the messenger...

I was only posting my findings, not sure why you are so confrontation with my post.


PS, I think you meant 'confrontational' in your last post, not conformational.


People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.....If the spell check deal ever comes to, you can take advantage of it as well as point out others mistakes.





DIPPER, I never said MAC mis spelled anything, I only questioned his use of the wording was suspect. REREAD my post again, do you see anywhere that I said mis spelled? Look again, anything? (nope). Both words are spelled correctly, its the term that I was referring to..


My god, some of you are so quick to jump on others without cause. You need to read the entire post, sit back, let is absorb, and then respond in a positive nature. I think the next time something interesting occurs in my experience, I'll keep it to myself..


PS, edited for spellinghttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gifEdited by: hasselbach

"I think the next time something interesting occurs in my experience, I'll keep it to myself."


Can't say I blame you..........

DIPPER, I never said MAC mis spelled anything, I only questioned his use of the wording was suspect. REREAD my post again, do you see anywhere that I said mis spelled? Look again, anything? (nope). Both words are spelled correctly, its the term that I was referring to..


I was just pointing out that the way you used the word was also incorrect......just as you did with Mac.


My god, some of you are so quick to jump on others without cause. You need to read the entire post, sit back, let is absorb, and then respond in a positive nature. I think the next time something interesting occurs in my experience, I'll keep it to myself..


If you took that as me jumping on you....well....sorry bout your luck.....I put a lot of info in the post regarding the questions being asked in this thread and you chose to chew on the part about the spell check......for the record...my spell check also checks grammar....guess your is differenthttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


LIKE I SAID IN MY INITIAL POST.....I also took it as you flaming Edge for your burnt clutches.......ALSO LIKE I SAID IN MY ORIGINAL POST.....The fact that you are running a module AND towing would put you at much more of a risk of burnt clutches than someone running a module and not towing......Maybe you should practice what you preach and read the whole post and take things at face value....AND RESPOND IN A POSITIVE NATURE. The only thing uninformative in my post was about the spell check. Things typed are often misunderstood because you never know the kind of attitude the person typing has.......although I can with your posts.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

I am not sure if I am stating the obvious or looking at things incorrectly?


Preset defuel at shift is completly different then " slip detection"


For "slip detection" to activate reduced fueiling, then a little slip had to occur in the first place. I agree it is better to reduce fueling once slip starts to occur but never the less, a little slip had to occur in the first place to activate reduced fueling.


Over the long run I would expect to see some clutch wear. Just as you will on a bone stock truck.

Bronco,


My understanding--though I am questioning that now in light of Tim's expereince--is the same as yours. Slip detection defuels after slipping starts. Defuel at shifts is just that. On every TCC locked shift fuel is pulled prior to the shift.


Makes me wonder which is better. Level 5 with all TCC locked shifts defueled, or level 4 with only the 4-5 shift defueled?


Blaine

Dipper, I only responded negatively when I was accused of editing my post (flip flopping).


However maybe I should flame EDGE, EDGE does state that their unit senses slippage and corrects for it ('safeguarding' as the rep told me). This is in their advertisements as well as was told this by their tech people. They also state the Allison didn't slip with 900 fp of torque. (see AFP1 above post). Well, maybe I do have a issue with them after all, because my trans sure looks like it was slipping and my 01 with 80,000 miles sure looked a lot better. Also, how can anyone make a blanket statement like that? 900 fp of torque applied to a car weighing 3000 lbs is a lot different than 10,000 lbs. And wouldn't my trans be better protected with the edge than stock with their safeguards? For instance, say you asked me to move you across town because you found a 3 star park which had a better pool. And I hooked up your 'home' and drove it 100 miles. Wouldn't I be better off with the edge on than off due to their claim they pull fuel out to prevent problems? Heck, EDGE only states not to tow in anything over 2 due to EGT problems, so if I could keep them in check, then I could tow in 5 and not worry about my transmission, right? Here's what they say on their web site:
The Juice also monitors the transmission slippage when the torque converter clutch is engaged. The power level is decreased if any slippage is detected. This prevents damage from being caused to the transmission, and also prevents the power train from erroneously generating fault codes and entering “limp mode”. Gee, my trans was slipping, maybe it was the lift pumps that caused the problem, cause according to EDGE, the Allison won't slip because I'm way below 900 foot pounds...


Looks to me like regardless of these 'safeguards' the Allison doesn't like being hot rodded to much over stock. I would have bought the EDGE regardless of these 'safeguards' because I would have fully expected to improve the Allison anyway.


Those that are hopping up their trucks and saying their transmissions are perfect in condition are in denial IMHO.


Edited for spelling and grammar.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifEdited by: hasselbach

Okay, so hasselbach and BIG DIPPER are both sorry for mispelling and didn't really mean to be negative. Now we can move on.


Tim,


Did the tranny shop give you any idea of how long your clutches would have run without showing any problems?


To all,


If the TCC is unlocked, wouldn't the convertor slip vs the clutches, and if it did, how much of that can it take?


Blaine

For instance, say you asked me to move you across town because you found a 3 star park which had a better pool. And I hooked up your 'home' and drove it 100 miles.


I been fixin to get me one of those there "fanny packs" ........http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


......I wish I did have your money...I know it takes a nice chunk of change to get in the 7s.....then I could pay someone to do everything for me as well..http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif ....but when it comes to these trucks, I think you should leave yours at home.......or stick to moving your relatives.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


I guess those pictures Trippin posted brought back some childhood memories for ya, huh....http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs%20Up.gif....


Edited by: BIG DIPPER

AFP1, I would defer to Mike L would did my trans, but I should note that when I told him that I ran level 5 a few passes, he said I'd probably have c3 and 4 clutch problems, which I did.


I guess those pictures Trippin posted brought back some childhood memories for ya, huh....http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs%20Up.gif.... Why yes it did bring back many childhood memories.. I remember as a young kid going with my dad to collect the rent in your neighborhood.. A learning experience for me to say the least.


Lil Dipper, yep, the fanny pack is great to keep all that cash handy when the urge arises to buy expensive gifts for my friends, like a new house warming gift like one of those lighted license plate holders that fits on the back of their home...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif As a gesture of good will, tell me what kind of siding you have your vehicle (oops, I mean home), and I'll reach into that fanny pack and buy you one. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gifEdited by: hasselbach

I remember as a young kid going with my dad to collect the rent SO you got your money from daddy....didn't have to work for it like the rest of us ??http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


Dipper, yep, the fanny pack is great to keep all that cash handy when the urge arises to buy expensive gifts for my friends, http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif As a gesture of good will, tell me what kind of siding you have your vehicle (oops, I mean home), and I'll reach into that fanny pack and buy you one. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif You'll reach into the fanny pack and buy me one what....siding....better edit again.....Nah, keep your money....you probably need it to buy friends...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif.....or pay someone to work on your vehicles.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif I thought women wore them anyway, as a place to carry tampons when they didn't want to carry a purse....or do you have one of them too?http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Its siding... Trust me..


(you know what's funny? people like you work for me....)http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gifEdited by: hasselbach

Thanks Mac for answering my question yesterday before this tread got carried away. I did my home work over on the diesel page before I settled on the Edge Juice 4.61. The general consensus was and looks like it still is that 90 HP is Allison friendly. Reading the original post I got the impression the discs show were toast. I wish mike was here today to tell us just how worn those discs are. Later! Frank

I think everyone needs to back it down a notch or two. Testing is just that..... TESTING. If you test one unit it really doesn't mean a whole lot. I can tell you that if you run 90 RwHp adder and tow a trailer most of the time in about 60,000 miles your trans will begin to have trouble holding while pulling in the mountains, period! I've been at this since the beginning and Allison rated the transmission for 550 ft/lbs of input torque. When the Dmax came out it started with 520 so there truly is not much room. As it turns out they under rated what it could and did hold, but there was no long term field tests yet. Now after 4 years they raised the rating to 610 Ft/lbs in 2 - 4th gears. The 4 years have shown they have some extra capacity so now the LLY makes 590 Ft/lbs. Now remember that they rate them for 100,000 miles of service life so if you put 100,000 miles on a new one it should hold 610 Ft/lbs.


When you hotrod the engine you will shorten the service life of your transmission, I don't care whose power adder you use! I can tell you from first hand testing I've seen Allison's with less than 5000 miles not hold +80 RwHp. This was dead stock for the first 5000 miles and had never towed anything. So what does all this mean?


Simple..... any power increase can and will shorten you transmission life. The question is how much? In Tim's case it wouldn't have been long for this world if he had kept it the way it was.

So far, for max tranny life with a box, we need to drive like a wild man all the time, set it on level 4, and defuel all shifts.


Well I am now on level 4 all shifts defueled. I think I need to talk to Edge about their no slip during 1-2, 2-3, 3-4 shifts claim. I am wondering how they tested. Engine dyno? RW dyno? I am also wondering how they monitored slip.


Blaine

dipper wrote "I been fixin to get me one of those there "fanny packs" ........

hanging around the daver "FIXIN" is my word......I have never abused an allison........you guys kill meEdited by: sdaver

OK guys, I've put my 01 transmission into limp mode probably a dozen times or more. I'm running a predator at 120hp unloaded and at 65hp pulling a 11,000 lb 5er. It will go into limp mode every once in a while just driving around, usually going up a steep hill when it tries to downshift. I limped the tranny pulling the 5er on the 85hp setting about 5 times at the end of a 750 mile pull. I had blown a fuse and the diagnostic port was dead so I couldn'g change the setting. Now I never pull over the 65hp setting and haven't had any problems on the last couple trips. My question is, have I done serious damage to the allison and just lucky I haven't been stranded, or is limping it not that serious of an event? I have about 79,000 miles on the truck. Thanks for your input.

silverado


You have hurt it.


mike

I want all you guys to lay off Tim Hassebach. He never blasted Edge and he basicaly said the same thing to me about Edge not doing a good job protecting the trans. He did not mean that statement in a derrogitory way. He was just led to believe that the Edge protects your trans, which is pure poppycock. Drive the Ally like an old lady for a few days and let it learn down the pressures, then sneak up and stand on it. Oops. You just hurt it. No defueling will help you then. You think 80 hp is a safe tune like some people say? Think again. Some people got lucky and have not felt any damage; they talk like experts. What they are basicaly saying is , I don't have cancer so therefore you should change your lifestyle to mimick mine and you will be healthy.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif Tim never abused his truck, I can tell. C3 and C4 pistons were not position correctly. clutches were not lined up correctly. C2 clutches were like brand new with no wear. Only damage was C3 and C4. Now, I believe those clutches would have lasted a long time in a stock truck. Only the inside diameter was burned and not damaged that bad. I replaced them because Tim wanted to, and I wanted to.


mike

Mike,


"He was just led to believe that the Edge protects your trans, which is pure poppycock."


This is the issue I am most concerned about. Edge's website flat said otherwise. If Tim's tranny is the norm for a hopped up engine, then Edge needs to reconsider what they are saying. I have about 6K on Level 5. I have made a couple hard passes, but not in 4WD. I accelerate fairly aggressively most of the time. I would not have even used level 5 at all if I had known Edge's statements about the Alli handling 900 ft lbs during 1-2, 2-3, 3-4 and 680 ft lbs during 4-5 were incorrect. An Edge tech also told me that Hot Juice would not hurt the tranny, but the Attitude might if all defueling was selected. That was wrong as well.


I still love my Edge box, and when I upgrade the tranny I'll go to the 145 hp level. However, Edge needs to be more clear about what they are saying.


BlaineEdited by: afp1

Think again. Some people got lucky and have not felt any damage; they talk like experts.


.....I'll bow out.....http://dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/11A_bow.gif

*Edited by: Mackin

OK DAD http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs%20Down.gif


Lets get something straight what Tim said he did and did is two things ... No one was there to see what took place ...


The Allison in the GM pick up and hop ups have only been out for three years .. Can't say there is enough constant data out to make anyone an expert on this subject ...


================================================== ==


AFP 1





Reread Edges site


The Duramax comes with 520 feet pounds of torque ... One can add in their opinion an additional 180 feet pounds approx of torque safely without slippage ...


Also notice what they say and I say in reference to LOCKING THE CONVERTER in order to avoid slippage ...


It is my belief the TCM detects slippage and the Juice plays along same as a stock truck would ,why our truck has safe mode STOCK ....Edge isn't adding any features or taking away as I understand it ....


Here's what I know ..... Take it from a non expert ....


I drove over twenty thousand miles JUICED NON ATTITUDE ... Ninety-nine percent of the time in 90 and 125 HP levels I was in Tow Haul ...


For the last 5000 or so miles I was stacking and experimenting .... I could no longer hold a 90 HP juice box in Overdrive ... I would roll out to pass a car zing right to neutral ....


When I tore my tranny down with a Tech C1 C2 looked BRAND NEW ...


C3 looked like it got HOT and had been semi blackened .... C4 looked like the lighter of the two clutch packs shown on the first page ....


Funny thing is take the POWER away drive my truck stock and no EXPERT could even tell there was damage or some slippage had occurred ...


If you take your truck to the track ,brake boost stall make multiply passes defuel off max power avail expect to get what you see in this thread ....


For the average "mike" driving on the street from stoplight to stoplight and towing they aren't having this problems and wont ...


What I see is a clutch pack abused at the track and people crying foul to the power maker for not protecting against slippage on a power setting of over 180 feet pounds of torque .... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Down.gif





These guys are crying wolf enjoy your truck ....


Mac


Dipper I'm surprised .... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Shocked.gif


Edited by: Mackin

Mac


All I'm trying to say is I don't believe Tim was getting down on Edge, he loves the program and it is a good one. I think he was surprised to see the C3 and C4 hurt with less than 20K miles. I think anyone that puts any program in their truck, no matter how much power can expect same results. Some sooner, some later. I am running a TTS 30 hp baby program for the last 2 months and it is a mild comfortable program but, everytime I drive it like an old lady for a few days and then decide to slam it ( that happens when ever I see a Heemi) I can slip the snot out of the Alli because I snuck up on it. ( I have not installed the Suncoast Stage 3-soon though). So anybodys Alli is fair game at the right moment and we all should realize if you play, you must pay. My post was not meant to flame you or BIG DIPPER, I just kinda thought you guys were being a little hard on him. I just installed a Stage 3 in an '04 LLY with 2k miles and C3 was burning already.


mike

To all, in case you missed it in my original post.


I never power braked trans. Never, never, never... The Two times I ran it at LACR, I left at idle, level 5.


I had set the attitude at Defuel All Shifts, always, always, always.


Normally drove it in level 3, or sometimes 2. Towed in 1.


I was super easy on this truck, so again I was very surprised to see how much damage was evident with c3 and 4.. I would have expected to see the burnt clutches with power braking and not defueling, but not with my settings and level of usage...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif

Trust this NON expert Break stands have nothing to do with what you have seen and report "as" damage ....


By the way what your seeing as damage is NOTHING !


You were FAR from constant Neutralizing and tearing down your transmission ...


Like I said let the sheep flock freely,the Wolf is in it's den .....





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

1. Trust this NON expert Break stands have nothing to do with what you have seen and report "as" damage ....


2..By the way what your seeing as damage is NOTHING !


3. You were FAR from constant Neutralizing and tearing down your transmission ...


Like I said let the sheep flock freely,the Wolf is in it's den .....





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif





Good Morning everyone.. This is a friendly reply so please do so in return.


Questions for Mac, our Non-Expert Transmission expert. (just quoting above http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif)


1. What is a break stand?


2. I've pulled apart enough transmissions to know it not a good thing when frictions turns black, smells funny, and the steels show hot spots. Its the first sign of something getting ready to get worse. My steels are not flat now either, with evidence of warpage and uneven surfaces. Similar to a flywheel when you cook it with hard slippage. And some wonder why they limp their transmissions? Hmmmm.


3. You were FAR from constant Neutralizing and tearing down your transmission ... I'm not sure what you mean here, please advise.


Thanks!

Brake ,my bad .....Right foot fuel left foot brake ...

Remember one thing the Allison is no 4L60/80 in the HD truck department or a Turbo 400 ....
Your lucky you aren't aware what Neutralizing is to the point you need to tear down ....

Point is Tim and Whom ever ,take a HOT JUICE to the track make 5 or 6 passes at full throttle shifts ,you get what you should expect ...

The average person runnin 90 HP and down on the street with a add on BOX like Edge which stays with in the built in Torque Managment will not experience what you did ....
Meanwhile this thread it's topic and every post your you still leave out the fact your tranny is showing wear for your own doing ....
Don't expect Edge to protect your tranny from yourself ....
How many licks does it take to get to the center of a lolly pop ??? How many passes at full throttle and full power does it take to begin to put WEAR in C3 ??? In a Dually I may add .....


Nice day for Dodge Ball ,duck incoming ...

Mac Edited by: Mackin

Mac, I don't disagree with what you are saying.


But I was very surprised what I saw for how easy I was driving my 03. My 01 didn't show this problem (which was driven much harder since it was a company truck), nor does my race car which is heavy (3850 lbs with me in it) and has a pretty stock turbo 400 (shift kit and that's about it). The steels and clutches look perfect after seeing well over 1500 hp, over and over. My 89 dually towed about the same weight as I do today and had a 496 with some juice (not sure why I had NOS on the truck, http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif), but even after pushing it to some 14's at the track, the tranny frictions always looked good. We had the trans apart numerous times while helping Kilgore design super low first gear planetary sets so we could monitor the frictions closely upon each tear down.


I'll tell you what I did see however, was strong evidence that the steels and frictions are not being applied across the entire facing of the plates, which accounts for the black glazing in the inner third of the friction material. And that should be a concern to all (similar to stepping on a frisbee in the middle and watching the ends bow)


Tim

Guys,


I called edge today and explained our concerns--that some of us were led to believe we could run in Level 5 with only the 4-5 shift defueled and not slip the tranny. I told the tech that none of us are slamming Edge, we just want to make sure sure we fully understand the limits of the Allison when running the Juice.


The tech I spoke with told me some interesting things. He said Edge's recommendations was to run levels 0-2 when towing, levels 0-3 when empty, use level 4 for racing, and levels 4-5 for racing. In my set of instructions, all I could find was the towing recommendation.


I sent him the link to this thread and asked him to provide input. My recommendation is Edge add the info about their recommendations for daily driving and racing on their web page.


BlaineEdited by: afp1

Great post afp1, I encourage EDGE to comment on the rather lengthy post and advise. Maybe my trans issue will be of interest to them as well.

Wow! I didn't pay any attention to this thread after the first post by Tim. Some more burnt C-3 and C-4s and another Extremely satisfied Mike L. customer, so what else is new?


Then I got to wondering what all the activity was. Just finished reading the whole thing. You guys have not been playing nice in the sand box! Shame on you! Now shake hands be good diesel freaks or I'll take away all your power adders and you will have to drive stock for one week!


As a data point here I must point out that I drove my truck fairly agressively with a stock trans and hot OJ level 4 for 20,000 miles. A couple of trips to the track, being an idiot on the street etc. I never limped it until the exhaust system was installed and then she let go after a power brake, big time limp mode. Of course I gave it no time to get used to the quicker spool up after the exhaust install. I just went out and abused it.


Whats the point of my endless rambling you ask? When I saw the original clutches after my ATS upgrade I was suprised to see they had only one tiny little scuff mark in the C-3. And looked great! I expected to see far worse. So did Edge protect my tranny and fail to protect Tim's or was Tim's tranny a weak one from the start? Or maybe the weight of his dually vs my SRW? Maybe my truck just doesn't make any power in stock form. 2003 California trucks are weak you know!


Bottom line is Tim was trying to let everybody know that it is basically roulette on whether your trans will withstand any additional power or not. Even if Edge implies you will be ok, you might not. I know Tim personally and his stuff is immaculate. He takes care of his equipment. I believe what he says about not abusing his truck. So, as much as we all want to believe our trans will be ok with some more power it all boils down to "PAY TO PLAY", be prepared to take responsibility for your actions.


Stepping down from soap box.......


Peace and love to y'all!


Trippin out.

I called Edge today and the guy I e-mailed was out. He will be back tomorrow and hopefully we'll get a reply tomorrow or the next day.

I understand he took some time off today to read "Everything you wanted to know about the Allison Transmission" book...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif.


All kidding aside, I think it will be great to hear his take on what Edge's safeguards are, and what they actually do, as well as any new options that might be on the horizon.


As a side note, has anybody wondered why the Banks box is so much bigger than the Edge unit, yet does less (Attitude Monitor and functions).

Actually, the guy I spoke with used to work for a dealership. He said he was "certified" (I think tht was the word) to work on the Allison. However, since Allison wanted all the tranny's shipped back to them for repair he didn't get a chance to work on any.

Talked to Jared at Edge today. He asked us to be patient because they are curently "doing their homework" for a good solution/amswer.


Interestingly, he told me that a stock Allison should handle being towed in level 2, driven daily in level 3, and even ocassionally raced in level 5 with all defuel off and still last 100-150,000 miles.


However, I'll let them have the finay say as to what there position is.........Edited by: afp1

Not to beat a dead horse, but I ran and still do run a v4.61 HOT-non Attitude Edge Box.


I ran it for 20K miles in level 4 -120HP all the time.........It wasn't until I got into stacking with it that I started to damage my tranny. It was not due to EDGE's stuff either.


I was running some high HP tuners that were not meant for a stock tranny....my fault not any company's.


I can still hold the 75HP tune and the 90 HP tune most times........before I started stacking the Level 4 was no problem at all.


BTW, my level 4 - v4.61 will put down 385 RWHP and close to 800 LB/FT of RWTQ on a truck with a good tranny.......on a stock tranny I was getting the same HP and slightly less torque, but I still held it without a problem.


Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gifNYEdited by: GMC-2002-Dmax

Well I got the v4.61 HOT-non Attitude Edge Box, and my stock tranny has issues. I do not abuse this truck. Leaded footed, I guess you could say I was. So some hold....some don't.

Jcummins, I agree with you


take my truck for a drive and you will see for yourselves.

Not to beat a dead horse....





ah tony, I think the horse was buried a few weeks ago....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

Not to beat a dead horse....





ah tony, I think the horse was buried a few weeks ago....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif





It was..........


Hopefully it stopped kicking already.


In any event it's hard to say why some tranny's will hold up and some won't.


I know I have seen the Allison take quite alot of abuse stock, for many thousands of miles...........


A particular BLACK DOOLEY comes to mind.........http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

I thought I read or heard someone talk about valves or passageways not being lined up properly in some trannys. If this were the case, the fluid pressure might be slower to build or even lower and allow more slipping.

Hmmmmmmmmmm!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


I tend to agree with two points mentioned throughout this thread, since this truck and Juice took me back 35 yrs. to my high school days.


1) I feel I got real lucky with this truck with injectors being an exception. Everything else must have been made on a Wednesday. Point being some have all kinds of different problems and others like myself just drive & drive and only have to fill the tank up.


2) I have 86k on the truck. Started with the 90 O.J. at around 8K and switched to the 120 O.J. when it first came out at 22k. Now switched to the 145 w Attidude (defuel all shifts & run level 4) and have close to 8k with it. I have always run the highest H.P. setting with all the boxes except the Attitude 145 and run the hell out of it keeping the TCM in the Holy $hit learning mode. Just love to see those two 295 black marks in the rear view when it hits 2nd & third. I've done no less than 25 - 30 power launches in 2 & 4wd at 1500 rpm. I also have at least 2,000 miles of towing with a 16,000 lb. dozer always in level 2 tow/haul in hilly terrain & 7% grades.


Bottom Line?


I think I was lucky and the truck/tranny was put together right at the top end of the spec. sheets. I've never limped it but 98% of my hard driving is in 1st to 4th, hardly ever O.D. Some may remember some of my early posts in that the Allison shifts sooo hard (2nd to 3rd & 3rd to 4th) that it literally has slung coffee against the rear window, twice when pullin the dozer.


Had the dealer change out and flush the tranny at 80k (1st time). They said the fluid was still in great shape and no metal of any kind in the pan or filters. Hell, all my clutch discs may look like baked newspaper. All I know is it drives like it was new, with no indications the tranny is damaged but from what I read here, it probably is.


I just hope it doesn't know I've written all these nice things about it.





Billy

IMHO


I think there are so many variables with the Ally in our trucks that we don't know yet why some last longer than others. I think I have some good ideas, but only time will tell if I am correct. I think a slightly more aggressive driving habit is better on the street. Hyway driving means nothing as far as good or bad; Ally learns nothing in this type of driving. Driving like an old lady for a while and then stomping on it is not good. Thats what make the Transgo shift kit so good.

Mike,


Is the transgo kit a simple valve body replacement?


Blaine

What is the transgo kit?


Another question if you guys go not mind.


Can you have slip without going into limp mode?


Also I really do not understand how all the slip I am seeing on the Attitude without the TC locked is good for the transmisssion.


I am not a transmission expert as you can read.


Thanks http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

THE TRANS GO KIT IS MORE THAN A MODIFICATION TO THE VALVE BODY. TO INSTALL IT YOU HAVE TO REMOVE THE TRANNY AND REMOVE THE FRONT HALF OF THE INTERNAL COMPONENTS TO DO THE INTERNAL MODS TO THE CLUTCH PACKS.

Can you have slip without going into limp mode?


Also I really do not understand how all the slip I am seeing on the Attitude without the TC locked is good for the transmisssion.





Yes, you can have slip without limp mode. I had never zinged or limped my Allison, but when I pulled the clutches, the C3 showed definate signs of slipping.


The slip reported on the Attitude is most likely when the TC is not locked. The TC is a fluid coupling like placing two fans together and only powering one. The first fan will cause the fan blade of the second fan to turn even though there is no physical contact between them. The TC does this with fluid, so the slip will cause an increase in transmission temperature, but not clutches are actually slipping. Of course if the TC is locked, and you see slip, this is when you should worry.

Holy cow! 3150 hits! (I guess more than a few of your are interested in your Allison's health after hot rodding it)


Where's the EDGE representative that AFP1 mentioned would be responding? I think we all would be very interested in their take on this.

hasselbach wrote: "Where's the EDGE representative that AFP1 mentioned would be responding? I think we all would be very interested in their take on this."


We never could get Edge to respond on this forum to the "No-Start" issue, even with an advisory post. Good luck in getting them to respond to this request. Forums do not seem to be their mode of communicating.

Yeah, I think their saying "be patient" was their way out...........