I know most people nowa days are fans of an auto. but im young, dumb and love shiftin gears....are there any real drawbacks or defects to the 6 speeds that are goin in these beasts? Iv drivin both, and i had no problems with the alli. its just a prefrence of mine to shift on my own ...... the 6spd or auto wouldnt make or break the sale of one for me, but if these manuals are junk, id definatly get an allison......and feed back is much apreciated, positive or negative http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif THanks


Jrod

The 6-speed transmission appears to be OK. The clutch/flywheel components are (borderline) junk in my opinion. Way too many problems. There are several on the forum that have a lot of experiences with the unit. Forum poster "CPMac" comes to mind. Maybe PM him and query. He probably knows the current state of affairs. Edited by: OC_DMAX

I can't say about the ZF since I've only read some postings here about them.


If you get an LLY however, the increased power is not available with the manual trans. It's restricted to the LB7 power output...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


I'm not sure how that would affect things if you plan on putting a programmer or module set up on it, but from what I've been reading and the reason the LLY is restricted, the clutch/flywheel setup just can't take the power as OC_DMAX has said.

Besides that, how are you supposed to drink your coffee, eat a donut, and talk on the phone all at the same time and still manage to throw that stick around.


Gotta love that downshifting in tow mode.


Allison all the way!!

Besides that, how are you supposed to drink your coffee, eat a donut, and talk on the phone all at the same time and still manage to throw that stick around.





http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifEdited by: Zeeb

so you cant turn up the 6spds as hot as the allison? prolly a stupid overlook on my part, but why not? And whats this downshifting in tow mode?


Oh bout the multi-tasking....my phone calls are never important enuf that i couldnt take it down to throw a stick....i drink so much coffee that i usually just run it in an IV.... and when it comes to eating somthing, if its humanly possible ill find away to eat it! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif





Thanks for the input!

And whats this downshifting in tow mode?





The Allison shifts down to slow your load when you have it in "Tow Haul" It is one of the coolest things about the truck. It has really impressed some of my Buddy's when we have been pulling a heavy load. The Allison shifts down Exactly when I would if I had a 6 speed!

I guess with approx. 25 % power loss through the allison and only 10 % through the zf it really doesnt matter to get a little less power output. But I would be worried also to get this bad clutch components.
I have no idea why they made such a bad transmission because normally the "Zahnrad AG Friedrichshafen" (lake constance, Germany) is well known for quality work throughout. I was thinking to get one myself, but I really trust the people here in this forum.....seems german quality is going down the drain, hard to accept...

but do you still have all the available systems to turn them up? ex. edge banks ect? can you still put all the good stuff on a 6 spd or are the sytems designed to the auto?.....also why is the lly limited to the lb7 output?


sorry, im still a bit confused, and dissapointed about the reliability of the 6spds http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif


Jared

There are two reasons I went with the Allison:


Couldn't get rear DVD option with Manual


The large amount of stop-n-go driving I do daily.

The only reason I can think of why they knock the power back to LB7 numbers on the 6-speed is that the manual just can't take the extra torque of the LLY. This would concern me, if I was considering a manual, that an extra 70 lb-ft of torque would put the 6-speed at risk especially since some of these programmers can add over 200 lb-ft.


I've also heard, but don't quote me on this, that an Allison equiped truck can be a little quicker since it shifts so quick and smooth whereas a manual can lose RPM between shifts and therefore also lose some momentum. Feel free to back me up or shoot me down on this anybody.

The manual can take the torque, it's the dual-mass flywheel that folks are having trouble with. Mine went bad at about 30K miles (no power box at the time). Replaced under warranty. Fortunately, it's covered under the 100K warranty as well.

I read somewhere on this site that GM has now told dealers to hold off replacing flywheels, as a new version is in the works that'll supposedly cure the problem. So there's hope.

With respect to the clutch, I know some folks who are pushing the power are having some issues. But at stock or mild boosted levels of power, it seems to work. I've been running a Juice w/attitude for awhile now and I have yet to slip the clutch. Granted, I normally run at power level 1, response level 4, and I only dial it up on rare occassions (passing on a little 2-lane, racing a Dodge, etc). It's never caused my clutch any grief. I think used in moderation, it's fine. If you want to run at 120hp of boost all the time and hammer on the thing, you're likely to have issues. But the same is true of the Allison, no?

If I had it to do over again, I'd still buy the 6-speed, I really prefer it. And I expect there will be a better flywheel available before my warranty runs out.

Dosen't mater whether it's a ALLI or ZF 6 when you push the HP up both will require upgrades. The ZF 6 upgrades are working out very well. My ALLI has been upgraded and it also works very well. Both are equal as far as HP mods and trans upgrades go.

Does anyone have a 6spd and regret it? ZFMAX, the flywheel set up is coverd for 100,000? How likely is it that i would break it before the 3yr/36000 warrenty was up>? How soon is a good fix gonna be available from GM? any ideas?


THanks for the info, very helpful!!!


JAred

Well, I can't speak for the '04 warranty, but on my '02, yes, the flywheel is considered part of the engine and therefore it's covered by the 5 year/100K mile warranty. That's not an assumption, it specifically says the flywheel is covered.

Initial flywheel failures seem to happen in the 30K to 50K mile range for the most part. That's just my perception from reading this board, I have no hard data to back it up. Mine started making a loud growling noise in the first inch or so of clutch pedal movement. And then a slight growling noise just sitting there idling in neutral.

I dunno when they might have a better one, my information is second-hand. Somewhere on this board there's a post about it. Someone went to go get a new flywheel and GM told the dealer the noise won't hurt anything and to hold off replacing it because they're about to release a better one. That's the sum total of what I know about it. The thread shouldn't be too hard to find, it wasn't that long ago.

The Allison doesn't make sense to me. You pay an extra 2 grand for one less gear and less control over what gear you're in. Oh, but you get grade braking that's almost as good as what you can do with a manual. Yep, that makes it a good deal. I just don't get it.

The ZF is a terrific tranny. Shifts nice and as strong as an anvil. If they get this flywheel issue sorted out, it'll be perfect.

Since the manual does not have the hp/tq ratings of the LLY is it actually an LB7? Does it have any of the changes the LLY had glow plug/injector etc. changes?

Oops, the thread I was referring to was on another site (http://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=005772)

I expect upgrading the zf6, once the design and testing is completed, will be much less expensive than upgrading the Alli with ATS or Suncoast.

Since the manual does not have the hp/tq ratings of the LLY is it actually an LB7? Does it have any of the changes the LLY had glow plug/injector etc. changes?


An LLY is an LLY...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


They just use the computers to restrict the HP. The Allison equipted trucks also have restricted power levels in 1st and 5th gears.

I love my ZF6

The manual trans is a very good trans, just add the proper clutch and pressure plate and your fine.One with more holding power. I put 350hp to the rear wheels stock clutch ok no load, but pull heavy load clutch would slip, added centerforce clutch and pressure plate and i was fine. Would pull 10,000 pounds like the truck has nothing behind it. IT gives it 900 foot pounds of holding power. THE d/a LLY setup only has 600 in first and fifth gear, power is reduced in those gears, with 900 in 2-3-4-gears. I like a manual but i drive a big truck all day so i bought an auto,now. Good luck either way.

The 6-speed transmission appears to be OK. The clutch/flywheel components are (borderline) junk in my opinion. Way too many problems. There are several on the forum that have a lot of experiences with the unit. Forum poster "CPMac" comes to mind. Maybe PM him and query. He probably knows the current state of affairs.

If anything is to be called "junk" it should be the Allison. I know some people swear by them and some swear at them too. FOr what is cost if should be fool proof and it is far from that. A manual a pretty much proven and reliable and so are the clutches. People that tend to have poor opinions of the manuals and particulairly the clutch durabilty, do not really "know" how to drive a stick. There is a lot of torque in a 8.1 or Dmax and if you bring RPM up a lot and slip clutch a lot under take off load there will be a lot of heat generated from fricton in slipage which can be detrimental to clutch life. IF you are good you can start out at a idle or a litle above it and greatly limit this slipage and heat. If you drive in properly and minimized high torque slipage you will get a few hundred thousand miles out of the clutch assembly with ease which is more than can be said about the Alision for what I have seen and read.

A double disc will cost you 2500 dollars and will hold anything that is out there now. An ATS level III will cost you just under 4000 and probably hold the same. Just depends on how much you want to exercise your right arm.

It can take the extra torque fine..don't let these people scare you. I have been running a 110 quad chip that kicks the power and TQ to well over what an LLY makes and the clutch is fine. Heres a question for all the alli owners...when you fry your tranny..can you fix it yourself...I know personally I can change a clutch or fix a manual trans internals. One of the members also makes a heavy duty clutch...real trucks have standard shift...but the allis are faster from a stop..and the 6 speed feels alot faster from a roll. I would definitely buy the 6 speed again.

I have the ZF in my truck because I'm not shiftless.

Personally, I would never own a Diesel, whatever the brand, with a automatic as they seem to do so much better overall with a stick with the ones I have driven many times over the years.

6 speed = http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Rock On.gif

After your warranty runs out, how would you feel about having to replace the Alli$on?

If you are not going to go over 135 ish on the HP the 6 speed will do OK if you keep track of your right foot. The problem I have is running the 70 hp on the quad and pulling my trailer. When I hit a hill and have the truck at full throttle the DMF tries to jump out of the truck. Running stock the DMF does fine. Hopefully I get my dual disc soon. Anyone heard from CPmac?? He was going to head my way with my clutch, but I haven't been able to reach him.

6 speed = http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Rock On.gif

After your warranty runs out, how would you feel about having to replace the Alli$on?


It is cheaper and easier to fix a manual tranny and clutch than it is to fix a Alison out of warranty

If you are not going to go over 135 ish on the HP the 6 speed will do OK if you keep track of your right foot. The problem I have is running the 70 hp on the quad and pulling my trailer. When I hit a hill and have the truck at full throttle the DMF tries to jump out of the truck. Running stock the DMF does fine. Hopefully I get my dual disc soon. Anyone heard from CPmac?? He was going to head my way with my clutch, but I haven't been able to reach him.

Would not even consider backing off a bit and maybe dropping a gear and saxing strain on engine and tranny? I never max pull anything so they last longer. The hill top will still be there when I get there maybe a few seconds later.

I do back off, but I would like to leave the cruise set.

I love my ZF 6 speed. I have towed nearly 10k pounds and left it in 6th gear running the Predator at 40HP. The truck now has 82k miles and the clutch and flywheel have been fine. Too bad the truck is sitting waiting on injectors http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif


Automatic?! NO WAY! I learned to drive on a stick, but always owned auto's until this truck. Now that I have a loaner with an automatic I seem to stay frustrated at how the damn thing shifts.

6 speed = http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Rock On.gif

After your warranty runs out, how would you feel about having to replace the Alli$on?


It is cheaper and easier to fix a manual tranny and clutch than it is to fix a Alison out of warranty

That was my point!!!

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

The Allison doesn't make sense to me. You pay an extra 2 grand for one less gear and less control over what gear you're in. Oh, but you get grade braking that's almost as good as what you can do with a manual. Yep, that makes it a good deal. I just don't get it.

.


The torque converter actually is a varible gear, so in essence the Allison has more than 5 gears due to the variations within the converter, do you realize that a properly working converter can actually multiply torque up to 2.6 times!?? Let's see your clutch do that.

Lets see how long an Allison lasts using those inbetween gears............http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Most comes down to personal preference although there are a deccent amount of DMF failures. That will probably need to be delt with if your going to play but if you want to play hard with an alli you should tweak it too. If you like to row gears then go for it!


I have went through my allison and the innards are not bad, If I can do it anybody canhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif. No body is breaking hard parts on the alli's, just cooking frictions/steels if they are doing anything(guys playing hard) Frictions/steels are easy and relaitivly cheap to replace. Converter aint bad either witch is another weak link in the alli.


Autos are also faster when both are properly set up.


Evidently though all these reported failures of DMFs is due to people not knowing how to drive a stick.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


Snowman, do you own a Duramax powered truck with a 6 speed? Do you have any personal experience with one? How do you know what one will and wont hold and what causes em to come apart? How do you know its cheaper/easier to fix a zf 6 speed compared to an allison? Have you done price compros between the 2 or rebuilt either one?

You saying that everyone that has a DMF failure doesn't know how to drive a stick? I haven't checked the prices of building up an Allison but the price to upgrade the whole clutch assy ranges from $1600-2600 I believe. The higher priced one being one that will hold just about everything that a person could throw at it. I am just defending my manual.

If you are not going to go over 135 ish on the HP the 6 speed will do OK if you keep track of your right foot. The problem I have is running the 70 hp on the quad and pulling my trailer. When I hit a hill and have the truck at full throttle the DMF tries to jump out of the truck. Running stock the DMF does fine. Hopefully I get my dual disc soon. Anyone heard from CPmac?? He was going to head my way with my clutch, but I haven't been able to reach him.

Would not even consider backing off a bit and maybe dropping a gear and saxing strain on engine and tranny? I never max pull anything so they last longer. The hill top will still be there when I get there maybe a few seconds later.


every chain will break and a well designed one will break at the cheapes link. A well designed drive train should only fail at a point that is save and easy to repair. My call would be real u-joint ve an expensive dual mass flexplate. . . .

No, snowman aluded to failures being driver related. I was being a smart ass twards his comment cuz i think its crap. No need to defend yourself, I aint picking on 6 speeds, just trying to share what i view as facts and inform against what I believe is BS. Just want the right info out there, he can make up his own mind, it really mostly comes down to what someone will be doing and thier preferences. There are few instances were an auto vrs manual(if they are both equaly strong or close to) is more than preference. I bought an alli because i wanted to go faster but what eliminated a stick for me was the fact I plow snow and a stick gets old quick. Thats why I didnt look at dodge, I had to have an auto. Otherwise i realy wouldnt mind rowing gears and the zf aint a bad gearbox.


FYI I paid under 2500$ for everything(kit, 24 quarts syn fluid, beer money and pizza for helpers, ect.) on mine. This was a suncoast level 3 kit. Came with 3 disk converter, frictions/steels, shift kit, and some other misc stuff. If I smoke my frictions from too much power a set of frictions and steels is 500$ or so from suncoast IIRC. OEMs arnt as pricey. Higher price for an auto at purchase time but higher resale. Price IMO is pretty close to a wash although the 6 speed is probably a bit cheaper. Although for rebuild or mod time I'm sure one aspect that is much nicer on a 6 speed is the weight. I dont know what one weights but I'm sure it aint the 350#'s dry like the allisonhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Pig.gif That thing can be a MF if you arnt prepared. But like I said innards aint hard.

If you are not going to go over 135 ish on the HP the 6 speed will do OK if you keep track of your right foot. The problem I have is running the 70 hp on the quad and pulling my trailer. When I hit a hill and have the truck at full throttle the DMF tries to jump out of the truck. Running stock the DMF does fine. Hopefully I get my dual disc soon. Anyone heard from CPmac?? He was going to head my way with my clutch, but I haven't been able to reach him.

Would not even consider backing off a bit and maybe dropping a gear and saxing strain on engine and tranny? I never max pull anything so they last longer. The hill top will still be there when I get there maybe a few seconds later.


every chain will break and a well designed one will break at the cheapes link. A well designed drive train should only fail at a point that is save and easy to repair. My call would be real u-joint ve an expensive dual mass flexplate. . . .

That if why you have 6 speeds so you can drop it out of overdrive when you want to really honk it. Down shifting a gear to ease engine strain even at same speed does not offend me at all, I have nothing to prove. THe tranny and clutch was never designed to take boosts like that (nor was the engine) and every time you do it like that you are take some life out of part, how ever small it may be. There are no free rides.

No, snowman aluded to failures being driver related. I was being a smart ass twards his comment cuz i think its crap. No need to defend yourself, I aint picking on 6 speeds, just trying to share what i view as facts and inform against what I believe is BS. Just want the right info out there, he can make up his own mind, it really mostly comes down to what someone will be doing and thier preferences. There are few instances were an auto vrs manual(if they are both equaly strong or close to) is more than preference. I bought an alli because i wanted to go faster but what eliminated a stick for me was the fact I plow snow and a stick gets old quick. Thats why I didnt look at dodge, I had to have an auto. Otherwise i realy wouldnt mind rowing gears and the zf aint a bad gearbox.


FYI I paid under 2500$ for everything(kit, 24 quarts syn fluid, beer money and pizza for helpers, ect.) on mine. This was a suncoast level 3 kit. Came with 3 disk converter, frictions/steels, shift kit, and some other misc stuff. If I smoke my frictions from too much power a set of frictions and steels is 500$ or so from suncoast IIRC. OEMs arnt as pricey. Higher price for an auto at purchase time but higher resale. Price IMO is pretty close to a wash although the 6 speed is probably a bit cheaper. Although for rebuild or mod time I'm sure one aspect that is much nicer on a 6 speed is the weight. I dont know what one weights but I'm sure it aint the 350#'s dry like the allisonhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Pig.gif That thing can be a MF if you arnt prepared. But like I said innards aint hard.

I agree that a stick is not the best for plowing snow but if you are talking about life expectancy, the 6 speed will still be running long after ally has gone to the shop. Even a THM 400 or 4L80E has a better track record when used as it was designed than a Ally.

I have a six speed in my truck, and plow snow with it. VERY slow in reverse, otherwise, no problems. I don't like driving vehicles with automatic transmissions. Guess I'm not shiftless.

Just for the record, I do know how to drive a stickhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. Even my wife opted for a manual trans in her truck. In my experience I've owned 8 stick shift vehicles and only had one trans failure back in 1980 and I still managed to limp the truck from Blythe to L.A minus 3rd gear. I've owned 3 automatics and everyone of them left me stranded from trans. failure, one did it 3 times, once on vacation 300 miles from home with a big load. The torque converter is the achilles heel of the automatic. Heat is what kills autos and a torque converter is a massive heat pump. Some manufacturers are experimenting with auto shift manual style tranies to try to do away with the torque converter/fluid cooker. The ZF should be a head and shoulders tougher trans combo capable of handling 750 to 1000 ft/lbs of torque but leave it to GM to mess up the details with a cheesy flywheel designed for quiet opperation instead of all out stoutness and a squeeky clutch pedal. As the after market catches up you should be able to get a single mass flywheel and new clutch for much less than they cost now and capable of 250,000 trouble free miles. As far as automatic fluid cookers go though the Allison is about the best ever made. Edited by: MOTO HEAD

This is like a Ford/GM/Dodge debate...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


For those of you who want them, I would imagine that GM will continue to produce 10% of the Dmax trucks with manual transmissions as they currently do. But according to the press releases on their web site, no R&D money is being devoted to making that particular option capable of handling more power.


So Ford; GM; Dodge; auto; manual; or? It's what ever trips your trigger...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif

The last manual transmission I owned was in a 1986 F350. The trans input shaft broke in half with 32000 miles on it. Out of warranty since it was 40 months old at the time. I learned to despise shifting gears (all city driving) I swore I would NEVER buy another. I finally bought a 6 sp in 2000. Buy the time I drove it around and home that day, I was really feeling abused by the 6 sp. I now love my 6 sp corvette, and would never buy an automatic vette. But I'll still never buy another manual truck. Automatics are also better for employees who pull trailers around town.

The one thing that might push me away from a 6 is the fact that GM is not putting much effort into improving the stock flywheel setup. Did they really think the same person who opted for a handshaker would care if it rattled a little at idle. Mine rattles like theres no tommorrow now anyway so what was the difference. I will say that I think the Allison tranny is a great transmission and I suspect it will last just about as long as the 6.

The one thing that might push me away from a 6 is the fact that GM is not putting much effort into improving the stock flywheel setup. Did they really think the same person who opted for a handshaker would care if it rattled a little at idle. Mine rattles like theres no tommorrow now anyway so what was the difference. I will say that I think the Allison tranny is a great transmission and I suspect it will last just about as long as the 6.

Flywheels do not "rattle" If there is a noise it is either in the pressure plate (not too likely) excessive enplay on input shaft in tranny (some what likely) or the throw out bearing assembly/retainer (very likely and easy to diagnos if noise changes with clutch pedal pressure. Any good manual will outlast a Ally and I have seen this forum and others loaded with Ally problems. I would not buy a GM truck with a Ally and if you gave me one I would sell it. If would either be a 4L80/85E or a 5 or 6 speed manual as they just plain have a much better track record. I have a old 79 Jeep J20 with quadratrac with the original THM 400 in it and it pushed snow HARD for many years and has gone form forwrd to reverse 10's or thousands of times and 25 years it still works as smooth as new. The ally has a LONG way to go to achieve that kinda of durabilty and dependabilty.

How do you figure the allison has a long way to go? What are all these failures you are speaking of. I have seen(and when I say seen I mean I have experienced it or personaly seen it, this aint friend of a frined of my brothers uncle stuff) failures of 400's and 4l80e's in ones that were abused and others that were taken care of. So what, stuff happens. I will say though that you have 0 experience with allison tranys and you know next to nothing about em, so dont spew forth all of you vast quantity of knowledge about something you know zip about. Way to be vague in your descriptions though and give no acutal facts or bring up any actaul weak points of the design though. Or any parts of the allison that are prone to failure? I dont know a whole lot about em and I dont claim to be a master mechanic or try to make others believe I am some sorta all knowedgable being. I do know of some weak points in the allison and I have a fair idea of what cooks on em at what power level and what it takes to get em to live. I have seen the innards of the alli and I have seen the innards of 400's and 350's and 700's have you? Can you make a good comparison of something you have never actually operated or seen? I can say that IMO the allison is one of the best stock LD tranys ever built from what I have seen and what I have done to it and others. Please oh master of the auto world.....how would you get a 4l80e to live behind a 1100lbft torque motor in a 7000# truck for 50k miles towing and drag racing and trying to whore it out when ever possible? Or if you prefer to compare stock to stock how long do you thing a 4l80e would live behind a 520lbft motor in a 7k# truck? Leme guess, deep gears and a big honking aftermarket cooler will fix everythinghttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Snoman, you may not be understanding the dualmass flywheel. It's a two piece design and when the rubber snubbers (that are there to absorb the diesels spikey idle) fail the two pieces bump into each other making a rattle and growl.

does anyone have a picture of a duel mas flywheel? I have a zf6 and would like to see what is in there. I have put in a lot of clutches but have never seen a duel mas flywheel.

I'll have a picture of a broken one as soon as I get it out and put the CPMac setup in... ;-)


Tim

The one thing that might push me away from a 6 is the fact that GM is not putting much effort into improving the stock flywheel setup. Did they really think the same person who opted for a handshaker would care if it rattled a little at idle. Mine rattles like theres no tommorrow now anyway so what was the difference. I will say that I think the Allison tranny is a great transmission and I suspect it will last just about as long as the 6.





I asked my stealer about the clutch pedal and the new flywheel. He called back today and said they had ordered a new pedal kit but that there was no news of a new flywheel.


Maybe GM doesn't communicate with it's stealers about reworked parts unless they get a call or a new part gets designed and into production . . . http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif