a guy by the name of kary, sells them for about $4300 or so. that includes the warrenty, 3 disk converter, and shipping. they are made by quad. they are suposed to be rated at 500 hp but he tells me people he has sold them to are at 600+ with no problems. not sure on the warrenty, but i want to say 3 yr 100k???? please email him at ve6kjw@telusplanet.net or go to his website at uglytrucksplus.com/. he will tell you everything you need to know. a very nice guy to talk to!!

Who makes the kit?


Edited by: dmaxalliTech

We are going to see a lot of hole in the wall tranny shops advertising custom built transmissions. We have seen them for years and people buy into their ads. Be very carefull, ask around, ask us. When I decided I was going to work on the Ally, I read everything I could find on it. Transgo was developing the shift kit and I went there to help do anything I could.(sometimes means getting coffee- who cares) I was tearing into the Ally and learning from the best. Steve Cole (Diesel Tech) got involved with the development of the shift kit and I was made privy to what was going on. When I tore into my first Ally, I was more than ready(still made some phone calls to be sure). There are only a couple of shops that are doing research and building quality hp transmissions, contact them before you stray and pay. Suncoast comes to mindhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif, ATS has a good rep (why don't they want me to see inside their trans?)


mike

this tranny is suposed to be made by quadzilla. it does have new cluches. and for as much lookin as i have done without any connections thats about 1200 to 1500 dollars CHEAPER than i have seen it. the warrenty is a 2 year deal, not sure on the miles.

Suncoast level 4 is $3695 plus tc I assume. TC is $1295 so $4990 total.





That also includes a deep pan.Edited by: Max Power

ATS is $3,895 plus $1388 for triple lock. $5283.


That includes the co-pilot.

Cheap and tranny shouldn't be in the same sentence ,after all it only gets the power to the ground ,kinda important....


Remember WHO you bought from making sure they are available for tech support are well educated in the Allison operation for trouble shooting if needed,after all who you going to call ,the GM dealer ...I'd like to hear that conversation ,Um I just installed this Cheap tranny and or upgrade and I'm having a hard 3/4 shift ....





Same with an installer of a kit as oppose to a complete transmission ... If it's a drop in remember the installer didn't build it ,so you can't bark up his tree ...








You get what you pay for ,and suffer the fall out of "cheap"...


Just some "free" advice ...


Mac


Edited by: Mackin

You get what you pay for


Just some "free" advice ...








I guess that means that your advice is not very good.http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

YEAH, I always heard, "ya get what ya pay for!"http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

My advice cost me about 70 bucks.......came by way of Verizon for a call made to a guy in Canada.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


....guess he got a good deal, eh.....free call and advice..http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

My advice cost me about 70 bucks.......came by way of Verizon for a call made to a guy in Canada.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


....guess he got a good deal, eh.....free call and advice..http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif








See your advice is so poor that you have to PAY to give it to people. http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


LOL, I think you better switch phone companies. My cell is 10c a minute long distance(canadian) to anywhere in the North America. I know we didn't talk for 700 minutes. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif





And wasn't that a sales call? http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Shocked.gifEdited by: Max Power

It wasn't wireless.........but it was for over 90 minutes I believe.


Sales call...initially......but you then you kept asking questions....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


.....be honest, you didn't want it anyway.Edited by: BIG DIPPER

One thing is for sure....I have never been afraid to pick up the phone and give someone a call......wouldn't know half the people here if I was....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

One thing is for sure....I have never been afraid to pick up the phone and give someone a call......wouldn't know half the people here if I was....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


yeah, but your timing sucks, interupting my lunch hourhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Adding to MaxPowers info


As stated,


Suncoast Level 4 with TripDisk Convertor - $4990


ATS Trans with CoPilot, upgrades & TripDisk Convertor - $5283


These are from what I read complete rebuilt transmissions, ready to "drop in".





Kit prices are as follows;


Suncoast Level 3 kit, $2195 includes TD convertor.


ATS Complete kit, has CoPilot, upgrades & TD convertor, $3,177


These are in kit form, needing trans teardown and installation.


What is confusing is how to compare the two. The ATS complete trans includes new seals, bushings, and all the components of the kit. As far as the Suncoast level 4, I dont know, I'm assuming it is called a level 4, but is a level 3 pre-installed? Anything else in there? And a level 5? Not even on the website.


Looking at the kits, it appears the ATS kit gives you a few more components for the internals, but the Suncoast gives you a deep pan thrown in. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif They seem essentially the same, but who really knows. What you can tell is that for the complete trans, you pay a hefty premium. And you still have to get the old one pulled and new one installed. And what is really in the Level 5?? Secret stuff? Have I missed some previous posts, all I see is guys saying "I got a level 5, http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif". Havent seen any details. Does a secret handshake come with that?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


On Edit: Fixed my error on the Suncoast level 3 pricing, thanks to Max Power for the call out. And I read the dang site twice before I posted http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif Looks like the Suncoast level III is a bargain, you just loose the adjustability of the CoPilot, and coming from someone who has one, the jury is still out on if it was a good purchase decision.Edited by: VFRRider

One thing is for sure....I have never been afraid to pick up the phone and give someone a call......wouldn't know half the people here if I was....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


yeah, but your timing sucks, interupting my lunch hourhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif .....could have been worse......you could have been trying to produce more offspring....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

its been so long, I am not sure I can remember how anymore

Suncoast Level 3 kit, $2193 plus $1295 for TD convertor or total of $3488








Now I might be wrong here but I THINK that the level 3 includes the converter. At least I'd like to believe that.



Under the level 3 information it says "This Stage III kit will allow you to upgrade your Allison to the 500+ HP level. This kit contains our triple disc torque converter, Transgo ® shift kit, boost modifier valve, C-1 power pak with 16 friction elements, C-2 power pak with 15 friction elements using Kolene steels, C-3 power pak with 9 friction elements (Kolene steels),
C-4 power pak with 11 friction elements (Kolene steels)"


And the kit price is $2,195.00


It wouldn't surprise me if that torque converter is extra but it sure doesn't look that way.


What all is in a level 3?
Transgo $275
Boost Modifier valve $86
Alto/Sun Coast Power Pak $575
C4 $51.64
Triple Lock $1,295


Total $2282.64



Now I am assuming this is what is in a Level 3 but I really don't know.

I think Max is right about the price on the stage III including the Triple Lock...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


I've been considering that, but I've gotten some info that the Triple Lock will reduce low end torque when compared to the single disk?


Since I'm really more concerned with pulling than drag racing, if that's the case, would I be better off with a single disk converter? What about the Kolene steels and billet apply plates versus OEM stuff in the Stage II for my purposes?


I'm just starting to look into this and I keep getting some conflicting information about trans mods.

Above post edited, fixed the omission http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif.

This really is leaving the realm of "cheap rebuilt trany" but anywho....


You compare the ATS kit to the Suncoast stage 3. This isnt an apples to apples is it? I mean isnt the suncoat 5 and the ATS unit comparable?


Why do you say the jury is still out?


And what is the difference internally between the level 4 and 5?


Eric, I hope you mean you havent had a peacefull lunch break in so long you wouldnt know what to do with yourself

I asked this question here............>>> Suncoast --- vs. --- ATS Trans.. (http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7931&PN=2)


Mike L. just installed a Level III Suncoast in his truck..maybe he will chime in.





Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gifNY

Nobody really seemed to explain if the level 3 is below or at the level of the ATS kit. So whats in this level 5 besideds geting to learn the secret handshake and a bunch of inhouse "blueprinting"??? Whats in a level 4 thats different from a 3???


All these ATS vrs Suncoast debates and nobody has any real part by part comparson???


It seems no body really has any idea what is better than the other? You just get alot of I have X and it rocks and i havent blown anything up yet.


So I guess just buy what ever kit is the cheapest between ATS and suncoast and you will be finehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


I could come up with more technical info on how to build a http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Nuke.gif device in 20minutes on the net than whats in the innards and the differences between these 2 tranys.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

You compare the ATS kit to the Suncoast stage 3. This isnt an apples to apples is it? I mean isnt the suncoat 5 and the ATS unit comparable?


Why do you say the jury is still out?





As far as I can tell, I don't see much difference in the Suncoast Level 3 and the ATS except for the ATS has a thrust bearing or something like that, I can't exacly remember what was in it, but it's not much more as far as hard parts than what you see in the Level 3. I don't know for sure, but It looks the same.


As far as the jury out on the CoPilot, I can't seem to find a happy medium. From what I've read and heard, it's supposed to vary pressure with the adjustments, but it seems to be always on or always off. I've tried all the settings. Soft shifts or slamming shifts. Frankly it shifts like crap. I blame that on myself, put it on an abused tranny. I haven't rode in one other than my own, so it just could be my truck. As far as this question being asked before, I went through all the posts on Suncoast VS ATS and as far as I can tell, no real consensus was found.


Edited by: VFRRider

You guys aren't comparing apples to apples unless you compare a suncoast stg 5 to a full ats (including c4's). That would be an apples to apples comparison. VFR, I think you need to do the rest of the tranny kit. I like my co-pilot. I usually run with it off, or very low for driving in town. Now when I am messing around I turn it up and for drag racing and pulling, she is full tilt. I can set it low and get a slightly firmer and faster shift than stock, so its nice. I love mine.

I have done a few ATS kits, and a few trans go, but never a Suncoast, I dont think the SUncoast III is much over a transgo with some additional valve and special clutches. I can see that both go after the same problems in different ways.


Which is better ?? Dunno, they both will fail when pushed hard enough, seen/heard of it. The co-pilot offers quicker shifts which is good for the drag racin crowd...

I can't speak for ATS because I have not installed their setup. As far as the Suncoast Stage 3, this is what I know (Smoop correct me if i'm wrong)


C1 stock has 6 two sided frictions, lining width is .698 across. Suncoast has 14 single sided frictions' linig width is .910 across.


C2 stock has 6 frictions .550 lining width, Suncoast uses 7 frictions, .740 lining width. Suncoast is able to use the full area of the steel plate with their clutch, and use a .200 pressure plate custom machined to C2 piston to avoid clutches coning because the C2 piston hits the clutches on the inside portion of the clutch pack which results in the inner portion of the C2 clutch burning and the outside never seeing stress.( remember my stepping on a frizbee explanation?). C3 stock has 4 frictions and Suncoast uses 5 by way of thinner steels, C4 stock uses 5 frictions and Suncoast uses 6 thinner steels also. I don't think Joe addresses C5, nor should he cause that massive clutch pack only holds rear ring gear(pity). I like the thinking behind Joe's clutch engineering so much that I use it. The Suncoast Stage 3 also consists of a Transgo shift kit( you are not going to build a good trans without it) I hope I helped here a little.


mike

Mike,


Thanks for the lesson...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif


One more question if you could, what about the question of low end torque being reduced with the Triple Lock converter vs. the single disk?


Thanks in advance...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

WD I agree I need to do the rest of the kit. I was told by ATS that the CoPilot should only go on a healthy tranny for any benefit. I do plan on doing it all, this was the first step. I'm hoping it works out better behind some solid internals.

So far I have seen a low end loss with most triple disc converters. The converter guys are constantly improving their product. TTS will have something new for testing as far as a triple disc. Maybe some of us local westcoast guys need to trade converters for a week or so and see what our combined consensus is after the test.


mike

So far I have seen a low end loss with most triple disc converters. The converter guys are constantly improving their product. TTS will have something new for testing as far as a triple disc. Maybe some of us local westcoast guys need to trade converters for a week or so and see what our combined consensus is after the test.


mike





Lab rat available for testing. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif


If the TTS triple maintains the torque multiplication of his single, life will be SWEEEEEET!

How noticeable is the loss on a triple lock?


What power levels will a suncoast or equivalent single lock hold?

How noticeable is the loss on a triple lock?


What power levels will a suncoast or equivalent single lock hold?





Diesel Power is holding 440++ RWHP and 900++ RWTQ with I believe stock clutches, Transgo Kit, Steve Cole Single Disk TC, and a Flow Valve.


MILE L. did the install...he knows for sure.........what's in it.





Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gifNY

That's the 64 dollar question I'm trying to get an answer to...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


As far as I can find right now, only Suncoast and TTS make a single disk beefed up converter, and only the Suncoast comes with a billet cover.


Does the cover matter that much on a single? Don't know, but from the reading I've done it would suggest a billet is better. Now, since the TTS and the Suncoast are the same price...

I think some have broken off mounting studs on the OEM cover. I think billet would be a good idea.

Personally, if it were me spending the money for the parts and to have them installed, I would go the extra mile and go with a triple. The draw back of losing low-end is not because of it being a single or triple, but because of the design of the stator and the way the rest of the converter is assembled. Mike L. has a pretty good idea about getting a few different trucks together with different converters to do a comparison. I can tell you first hand it is hard to swap and test and swap and test. Conditions never seem to be the same and seat of the pants begins to take over. Edited by: BIG DIPPER

Well that was my thought originally since I've not been able to get anyone to tell me if it's a difference in the stator design, spacing of the vanes I would think, that's responsible for the change. Since I don't plan on trying to put a bunch of power at the rear wheels, if a single will hold it with higher low end torque, then why not?


The other question is how valid is Suncoast's claim that warping of the cover leads to un-even pressure on the clutches, which is where the billet comes in? As well as the point Max made about breaking off mounting studs.Edited by: Zeeb

Thanks Mikehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

cONFUSED?


I can only speak about Sun Coast. Stage III kit? Mike L. is right on and it DOES include a triple disc converter.


Torque multiplication is a result of impeller,stator, and turbine design. The number of clutch discs has absolutely no effect on torque multiplication. The Sun Coast in a single or triple disc configuration ABSOLUTELY does NOT reduce low end torque multiplication. A billet cover addresses multiple issues. OEM covers crack & flex due to metal intergrity and lug design, if clutch area in a single disc is increased (Sun Coast single x 60%) you have to increase the area that the clutch disc applies to on the inside of the cover (not possible with OEM cover, ring or no ring) Zeeb, if the inside of the cover is not flat (cover warp) then the surface that the disc applies to is not flat, this is why with our billet cover flex/warp is stopped. This makes it valid.


VFR/RATLOVER: Stage III: kit form you or your tech installs, holds in excess of 600 RWHP. Just ask QUAD, he purchased one in Sept for his 03.Xerox engineering is wonderful.


Stage IV: Complete trans assembly, contains additional friction capacity over Stage III, requires some in-house machining to achieve this. I consider new seals and bushings a given (you put on clean underwear after you shower, don't you?) No secret handshakes but therehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif are a few things we developed during 12 months of very costly research that we decided not to give away. In house blueprinting? you bet. One other ingredient when comparing apples to onions, responsibility, that's part of what you paid for to GM when you purchased your truck.


Stage V: Custom manufactured billet pistons, springs, and seals. Only suggested when one insists on doing high boost launches and breaking parts.


You can always spend less if you will settle for less. After many years in the higher performance diesel market I always want a little more than I think I need.


smoop

Thanks Smoop I was waiting for the Expert to explain ......


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifEdited by: Mackin

I second Mac's thanks Smoop.


I appreciate the input everyone else has offered as well.


Now, where's that extra cash I had stashed...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


Oh wait, got to find a trans shop first...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

Appreciate the info Smoop, answered a lot of lingering questions I had. I've no doubt your stuff is truly top shelf http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif.


Mike

Mr. Smoop Sir,


It it possible that the perceived torque multiplication loss is just a function of the triple disc/billet converters overall rotating weight causing the rotating assembly to accelerate slower? What are the weights of a stock vs your single and triple?


Edited by: Trippin

I thought about that Trippin, larger rotating mass, takes more oomph to spin up. But then I thought about the torque numbers these engines are putting down and thought maybe the difference would be negligible. I don't know about these trucks, but I do know it makes a big difference in acceleration for Motorcycles, where lighter wheels can get you noticibly quicker.

Guy


We went through this subject in the 60's and 70's, Hot Rod mag and Carcraft. Seemed there was a consensus that a heavier mass launched the car quicker as I remember. This were sticks. DieselTech and I talked about this a bunch of times, but does a diesel really care? I don't know. I would love to try a 4L80 trans at the strip (think it might make it through the traps once) and see.


mike

Mike,


I just can't get my tiny little brain to make up its mind on this diesel rotating weight thing.


I think a heavy car that is under powered for the traction available will definitely benefit from a heavier mass for the intital launch. However it will pay a price in acceleration down the track. Always the trade off! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif


Once we get to a point where we are making considerations on the launch because of traction problems (which most of us have) then I think the rotating mass becomes a burden in both launch and acceleration.


I know how good my circle track car feels with a small dia lightweight Tilton clutch assembly in it. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif


So I am left wondering........


What if we got together and.........


Then we could.........


Naw, to many variables.

Imagine if Tomac had a single .... Low 11's ?? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wacko.gif


I believe there is less then 10 IBS difference in weight .... The stock converter dry I believe is 64 LBS ....








Mac

Thanks smoop.


My comment about "just buy what ever is cheapest" was mostly aimed at the fact that if a stage 3 will hold more than enough then between the ATS kit and the stage 3 just buy whats cheapest if they will both hold what ever is thrown at em. I really understand that R&D cost money and i dont mind paying for it. I was just unsure what the differences in all the kits were. I knew the 5 had in house machining done but I was unsure of what the 4 was.


I was just kinda under the impression that the stage 3 was under the holding power of the ATS full kit by a deccent margin. If its holding over 600rwhp then it sounds like enough for me.


Thanks for the infohttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


I change my mind every other minute about who I want to go withhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif


I was under the impression that the drawbacks to a tripple disk(just going by the limited reading of TD stuff on TDR) that when unlocked the create more drag than a single. The additional drag also makes em wear a bit more and build a shade more heat. Dont know if its true or not.....never really heard it reduced some low end???

Trippin,


OEM 58#


Sun Coast Triple Disc 65#


ATS 69#


With engines making in excess of 900# torque I really don't think they see an additional 7 or 11 # in rotating mass. It would be so nominal I don't think you could feel it (seat of pants). I agree that any additional mass would probably produce a quicker 60' time.


In January we dynoed Dennis Perry's Dodge with OEM converter,


Installed Sun Coast triple disc, back on dyno, same truck, same dyno, same day, no other changes, The truck dynoed an additional 1.5 HP.


I believe David Dunbar has the number's recorded


Having said all of this, in January of 03 we built some torque converters for Transgo in thier test trucks when they were developing the Allison shift kit. We built increased efficiency in fluid coupling mode. Needless to say the Duramax did not appreciate our efforts so we decided not to visit there anymore. This may be where "loss of low end torque" came from.


Ratlover, what you speak of could be theoretically true, however after examining some of our triple disc after in excess of 70,000 miles


there is no visible evidence to support this.


I hope this clears up the questions


Thanks,


Smoop

Like I said, what I read and no body really had any evidence other than it makes sense but if it does so to a degree that would actualy be noticable???


"We built increased efficiency in fluid coupling mode."


Meaning you "tightened" up the converter to give it a lower stall speed??? Why didnt the dmax like this? Was this on stock or moded? Wouldnt it depend on the truck weather it likes increased efficiency in the fluid coupling mode? I'm kinda clueless and really appreciate your guys postshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Also.....are the aftermarke converters the same stall speed as stock? I assumed they tightened em up since most people are running modded motors and that basicly increases the stall speed.


I notice my damn truck runs like its got a glide in it. Get on it and it flashes way up there and stays up there trying to play "catch up" till it shifts gear and there is little rpm drop as the converter just slips like a scared dog on a wet tile floor. Any thoughts??? Is this good for our set ups(motor caracteristics, gearing, weight) I would think with the flat curve and all the gears of our trucks we could benifit from tightening things up???