After having my ordered truck come in wrong, I decided to wait for a couple of things and get a 2005. Well I was driving and saw a very nice looking 2004 Dodge Laramie 3500 DRW HO Cummins, 6 speed for sale.

The deal even gets better. It has a TST Powermax with digital gauges (specs out over 1000 ft-lbs torque) exhaust brake. Pace-Edwards roll top cover and only 1400 miles. Very rich guy bought it and then wanted something different. Since this is a small town I asked around and this seems to check out.

Asking $39,000, but figgure they'll go lower.

Pro's - essentially new truck 47,000 MSRP, 41,700 invoice with some expensive add-ons. Even with the rebates on a new one I think this could be a pretty good deal.

Con's - I didn't want white, manual tranny and while they look cool I decided against DRW (gonna be a daily driver), I also wouldn't have gotten all the tricks as I usually keep it stock. Wife is GM all the way.

Now I can't keep my mind off that truck, really want it, don't need it. Help!

Doc Robbs

Just an addendum

Hoot how do you like the new ride?

Please give us some details. It might help.

Doc Robbs

Doc, I love my truck.

You have a couple of things against you and they're big.

You don't like stick and don't want a dually. That's enough to stay away.

Also... it's very strange that he has the TST on it and only 1400 miles and he's selling it. In other words he blew the warranty right off the bat. You said you will be happy with stock so why risk it. The TST is a scary box that will put out engine killing power if set too high without some other major improvements. Not saying he abused it with that low of miles but that box is capable of more then the stock engine/tranny can handle.

If he did nothing more than you mentioned he has about $3000 in addons. E-Brake is nice.... do you need it? Is it 4x4? I always get 4x4 regardless. Just looks better and you get your money back. Is it Quad Cab? For me that is a must.

I paid 35,000 out the door for mine.

My advice.... if you are going to spend that kind of money, get what you want, whichever brand you decide on.Edited by: hoot

While the Cummins is surely an excellent engine I dont like the truck. It looks very cool from the front design but what kind of poor workmanship once you get in! There are no features like climate control, memory seats...and then the small space in rear. The resale value of a Dodge is also much less than Chevy (I have also the old RAM and NOBODY wants is for a reasonable price). There is no good automatic transmission available with the cummins just the old 4 gear 48 RE (or similar). The engine is probably the best of the 3 (GM, Ford and Crysler) but the rest surely is NOT IMHO.

While the Cummins is surely an excellent engine I dont like the truck. It looks very cool from the front design but what kind of poor workmanship once you get in! There are no features like climate control, memory seats...and then the small space in rear. The resale value of a Dodge is also much less than Chevy (I have also the old RAM and NOBODY wants is for a reasonable price). There is no good automatic transmission available with the cummins just the old 4 gear 48 RE (or similar). The engine is probably the best of the 3 (GM, Ford and Crysler) but the rest surely is NOT IMHO.

Poor workmanship..... I disagree.

Climate control.... On my GMC it was junk and there are a few here that will agree.

Memory seats? I know the new Durango has them... not sure if the 2004's have them in the plushest trucks.

Small in the rear... yea but depends on how comfy you gotta have it.

Trans... Could use a better one but since he's thinking stock... many have had success with it.

I purposely stayed away from pushing a brand in my first response... I still don't push either one but don't get me started http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

I miss the auto headlights in my GMC.... guess I shoulda got another one http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif Edited by: hoot

I agree the Cummins is a fabulous engine and will last a long time. The Dodge truck is improving, but still has a long way to go to catch Ford which still hasn't caught GM for a overall great enjoyable package for fun and family. I have been very happy with my DMAX which, until now, had gone 67,000 miles through hell in the jungles of Southern Mexico and Guatemala without EVER having a mechanical bleep or any problem - never gone to dealer for a failure repair. UNTIL NOW. I left Guadalajara Mexico, 1800 miles below the border, and 3300 miles from home in Oregon, on Monday and after a few hours discovered I was blowing fuel, getting 10 mpg or less, and my oil was full of diesel. Drained it and took a full 5 gals out of the oil drain hole. Engine temp had not gone over 185 and outside temp was 95 degrees. No Duramax service in Mexico - big money to flatbed to US. So, I changed the oil - and drove the sob home 3500 miles, changing the oil every 150 to 200 miles (start laughing here - it ain't over) when oil pressure dropped to 30 at 2000 rpm. 50 GALLONS of oil later, I made it home. Temp never increased and oil pressure NEVER dropped below 20 at idle. Initial examination indicates engine was not hurt, even though I ran 3500 miles with a average 50/50 mix of Delo 400 and diesel fuel. Truck weight was at 12,000 or better. The DMAX got me home when any gas engine and even the 6.5 would have failed. Isusu builds a great engine!


Buy a DMAX - it pays!!

Boy now there is a testimonial!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

Hoot,
not need to push the subject which is better - just a matter of personal preference but I have to agree with gardnerteam he exactly put it in the right sequence. First GM that Ford that Dodge at last (IMHO) Many will disagree to that and thats fine with me. The automatic AC works very nice here where I live, never had a problem. The fit and finish is poor and the materials used are cheap in the Dodge (hard plastic...), the seats are small, space in rear is small... and the value for money is less (because it brings you less money when you sell it again...). All this is in the eye of the beholder like most things in life.
Fact is also that the Cummins is probably the best diesel engine ever made and from the design as inline six surely it will outlast any Duramax - but who will drive 500.000 miles with the same Truck anyway?

I too also feel that there is a place for all three brands. All of our trucks have some form or another of issues. So it comes down to the individual tastes, and situations. There are a lot of people out there, and many different situations. There is something out there for everyone.

Bill

P.S.
I wouldn't trade my DMAX for nuthin!Edited by: Redapple

Hoot,
not need to push the subject which is better - just a matter of personal preference but I have to agree with gardnerteam he exactly put it in the right sequence. First GM that Ford that Dodge at last (IMHO) Many will disagree to that and thats fine with me. The automatic AC works very nice here where I live, never had a problem. The fit and finish is poor and the materials used are cheap in the Dodge (hard plastic...), the seats are small, space in rear is small... and the value for money is less (because it brings you less money when you sell it again...). All this is in the eye of the beholder like most things in life.
Fact is also that the Cummins is probably the best diesel engine ever made and from the design as inline six surely it will outlast any Duramax - but who will drive 500.000 miles with the same Truck anyway?

Have you owned or driven an 03-up Dodge for any length of time?

I owned a Dmax for three years. It was a great truck but it puked a headgasket at 65,000 miles. Gardnerteams story is great..... but what the heck? He's correct... they can handle fuel pumped into the crankcase quite well but I'll bet the LLY won't. Ford proved it already that the Garret VGT turbo is very sensitive to diluted oil.

I want a friggin diesel that won't have me concerned what day it's going to get me home doing 150 mile oil changes.

I owned the Dmax and had a good bit of experience with it. Fortunately Eric hooked me up and did my engine up without me worrying about some know nothing screwing it up. The Dmax can take quite a beating but after 70,000 miles.... I got a Dodge. Who knows.... maybe I get screwed again. But from this view... I'm a happy boy right now. I actually can relax and concern myself about other things for a while.

There comes a time when you have to wake up and accept the fact that these engines have a serious fuel system durability issue as it's been three friggin years now and new ones are still going as often as the old ones. I just hope Cummins did there homework when they spec'd my engine with Bosch and did what need to be done or I'll be in the same boat.

Sorry guys but lets not kid ourselves.... GM Isuzu has some work to do and if they don't get it done they are gonna lose their shirt cause little by little word is getting out. Don't touch the high mileage ones or you are asking for it. I bashed the 7.3 PSD and Cummins for years but now when I look back on all this... people buy the 7.3 with 150,000 miles on them and don't bat an eye. Same with the Cummins. Can you say the same for the Duramax?
It's about time for GM to fess up and fix the issues or get out of the diesel business.

And if Dodge was so bad.... why would anybody buy the things?

Anyway... so.. hows everybody?


Edited by: hoot

IM looking at a 2004.5 Dodge Cummins 600.................Blue Quad Cab 4x4 SLT 6 speed ......sticker for $39,000 can get it for around 32,000. You just can't beat a Cummins.......it takes Ford and Chevy a V8 to match the power of an ISB Cummins.......not sure about a Dodge though.........never owned one....I just sold my 03 Dmax.....overall I was happy with the engine, just not with the ZF6 or the truck itself.....maybe I got a Lemon I don't know..........

I bought Dodge/Cummins based on the motor. Interior features I can live with and i'm sure there are better quality interiors out there. The inline 6 diesel has been around...proven. New injectors... time will tell but so far so good from everyone i've talked to.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif


If you want a long lasting truck, i.e. you don't mind driving a POS around ten years from now cummins is for you, becuase the motor will still be running like a champ, but the Dodge portion of the vehicle cannot keep up with the motor reliability wise. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif Something to work on...

I bet the inside of your engine is as clean an shiny as a mirror, ya know you may have been further ahead just running STP instead of oilhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif.


I agree the Cummins is a fabulous engine and will last a long time. The Dodge truck is improving, but still has a long way to go to catch Ford which still hasn't caught GM for a overall great enjoyable package for fun and family. I have been very happy with my DMAX which, until now, had gone 67,000 miles through hell in the jungles of Southern Mexico and Guatemala without EVER having a mechanical bleep or any problem - never gone to dealer for a failure repair. UNTIL NOW. I left Guadalajara Mexico, 1800 miles below the border, and 3300 miles from home in Oregon, on Monday and after a few hours discovered I was blowing fuel, getting 10 mpg or less, and my oil was full of diesel. Drained it and took a full 5 gals out of the oil drain hole. Engine temp had not gone over 185 and outside temp was 95 degrees. No Duramax service in Mexico - big money to flatbed to US. So, I changed the oil - and drove the sob home 3500 miles, changing the oil every 150 to 200 miles (start laughing here - it ain't over) when oil pressure dropped to 30 at 2000 rpm. 50 GALLONS of oil later, I made it home. Temp never increased and oil pressure NEVER dropped below 20 at idle. Initial examination indicates engine was not hurt, even though I ran 3500 miles with a average 50/50 mix of Delo 400 and diesel fuel. Truck weight was at 12,000 or better. The DMAX got me home when any gas engine and even the 6.5 would have failed. Isusu builds a great engine!


Buy a DMAX - it pays!!

I have not driven a 03 Dodge for a long time. Just tested it (and liked the engine a lot). What I did not like are the little things I said before. I have driven the Ford also, but this was not available with the Powerstroke 6.0 and again the overall package was not like the Chevy. Since I could not afford the Duramax at that time I bought a Chevy Avalanche as family car and I am very happy with it - but still I want to have the Duramx. Too bad to hear that its not really reliable at all - I thought Isuzu did a good job - all the enthusiastic people, so what is wrong with it?
I have driven a Toyota Landcruiser 4.2 ltr. straight six Turbodiesel for more than 10 years without EVER having ANY problem with the engine or any other part of the truck (just one wheel bearing - neglected by the preowner - and normal service parts. After 10 years I sold that truck for over 20.000 $ (with more than 150.000 miles on it). Before that I had a straight six gas engine in another Landcruiser - never a problem also. Therefore I am pretty sure that the design of a inline six will last longer than a V8 (less moving parts, better vibration counter balance...I have a high opinion about japanese cars and therefore I thought Isuzu has done a good job...maybe my dream will not come true after all - I do not like an unreliable engine and would consider to buy the Cummins even if I dont like the truck, I am getting to old to fix things all the time.

Wouldnt it be nice, Cummins/Allison, in a 2500-HD GMC.

Yes, I agree. Would be nicer with workmanship and reliability of a Toyota Landcruiser - but than it would cost twice as much!

Hoot, you harp on your head gasket issue as the reason for getting rid of your truck and being "screwed". Well, do ya know how many head gaskets I have helped replace on dodge's? You think high mileage cummins aren't risks? I feel some times I am in a freakin folk tale around here. Whose feedin you this stuff? Anyways I thought your tranny was actin up and thats why you got rid of it? Think maybe it couldn't handle propane with out upgrading the tranyy? Can't find any upgrades on your tranny in your gm profile.

dpower,

Maybe the DMax head failure was fluke. It actually wasn't the reason I unloaded it but it certainly didn't entice me to love GM. I do hate having to put up with an engine that had a major repair. Would be nice to have an mechanically untouched motor for the majority of it's life. Guess I took a chance buying first year... but just like the Fords... buy a second year and on and they are still dumping fuel into the crankcase.

Don't forget the tree damage.

The Allison was beautiful. Never had a problem with it. I limped it a few times but I'm not a thrasher. I learned to keep the power off once she got up into the upper gears. Never felt like it was getting weaker. Always shifted great.

Cummins and headgaskets.... if one goes I'm in the same boat again. I do have 7/70 and 7/100,000 on the motor and I believe it's a bit simpler of an engine to play with.

I haven't become anti Dmax. I'm impressed with them. I just am also impressed with my Dodge and the differences.Edited by: hoot

Use STP? That's sacreligious!@! Rather use cowsh-t! Anyway, I had a 84 GMC 4X4 CC Dually that I put a new Case Cummins 6BTA-M(same configuration as the early Dodge Cummins, but massaged for more HP) in 1984 for towing a 43' 3 car enclosed hauler. Done by Cummins Las Vegas. I drove it 300,000 miles without any engine problem. The new owner now has over 500,000 on it without any engine probs (trannys are another thing). Runs strong, uses no oil, and may go a million. Great engine! I know of no small diesel engine that will match the Cummins for longevity, power, and lack of problems. Can't say that for Dodge, though. The DMAX is a great engine, but there may still be a little work to do to refine it. It got me home, which is better than a Ford would normally. As to the new turbo, now you have me worried, but there has got to be a way to solve it. One solution will be to carry xtra injectors (which I will) because they can be easily installed in the LLY where they are nearly impossible to install for the uninitiated in earlier engine. And Hoot, I abhore the modern day GM with their pointy headed beancounters. I loved GM from the mid 50's to about 1969, then they went straight to he--!

Spoke with a transporter at the Flying J in Salt Lake couple of days ago. He was running an '02 Duramax/Allison with 180,000 miles on it. Powerstroke guy there and I both agreed this was the first D/A we ever saw with that kind of "trouble-free" mileage. Fellow said he only ever went into limp mode once and that was because of a fuel filter.


I regularly speak with Cummins transporters that are way up into high mileage. Older Powerstrokes are also represented in the high mileage group. Fords need clutches and auto transmissions a lot. Older Dodges get lift pumps and auto transmissions. Have not met an '03 or '04 Cummins owner that has needed anything ....... yet.

Your sooo close now for the 2005 I would get what you want period. Here's the big one for me that would make me run for the hills, IT"S USED, having said that - that means you have no lemon law coverage since you are not the original owner, if it is a lemon.
Just get what you really want, I've settled in the past and have always regretted it and ended up getting what I wanted in the long run, after wasting money on the deal.

First lets be clar, that injection related issues with the D MAX are Bosch related items not Isusu or GM. Some of those issues may also be related to fuel quality.


That being said I personally know of several Cummins owners that have upwards of 200000 miles. A very good friend has an 00 dodge with over 600 RHP and 1200 ft lbs, but he has blown serveral head gaskets. To much power I guess.


Seeing now that Cummins is using bosch as an injection supplier, we may see some cross over issues. However nothing will be beat the older straight 6 cummins with mechanical injection.

First lets be clar, that injection related issues with the D MAX are Bosch related items not Isusu or GM. Some of those issues may also be related to fuel quality.


That's true.

GM said the same thing when the Stanadyne pumps failed one after another on the 6.5TD's. What does blaming a supplier do to help a stranded customer?Edited by: hoot

I go back so see to whom I wrote out the check when I made the purchase. That makes it his problem.

Thanks for all the input guys. I'm out in Phoenix for my BIL's wedding. Sure are a lot of trucks out here. Diesel was $2.56/gal. (higher than gas) when I left NC it was $1.60 with gas right at $2.00.

The look of the Dodge is growing on me. I liked the rear seat platform and it sits much better than the old Dodges.

Redneck Cow Doc (who traded his Dmax for the Dodge) has been real happy. He's a slow poke old man kinda driver and actually likes the Dodge AT better than the Allison. I'm not a race car driver but I do make use of my Valentine.

I was sold on the Dmax early on and still love GM trucks.
I think I'm just going to have to chew on this for awhile. Will still avoid the DRW as I don't need them (except for the cool factor) auto vs 6-speed is up in the air. If I go GM it'll be the Allison, if Dodge- I don't know.

i guess I'll toss in my 2 cents... had an 01 Dodge HO Cummins... absolutely the worst vehicle I have ever owned. I thought highly of the Cummins till I owned one... won't own another. the engine might be OK if you can keep fuel to it.. seems the lift pumps puke regularly... or keep the power to the wheels... clutches and trannies seem to be a problem too, this according to the tow truck driver who hauled mine in (clutch was shot at 1270 miles) their computers aren't the best either, mileage was poor, power steering doesn't like cold weather and the rest of the truck was much inferior to GM products. 27 trips to the dealer in 31,000 miles, should have went a few more times but I dumped it. Had to be hauled in 3 times. My 04 LLY GMC has more power, more torque, better mileage drives alot better and so far is a lot more dependablehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif. No more Dodges for me.

subman,

No more Dodges? I remember in my younger days literally hating GM vehicles. I don't hate any of them now. You have horror stories on all the forums of all the brands. If Dodge built every vehicle like the one you had, they would be out of business.

"Clutches and trannies "seem" to be a problem?"

I won't argue that they aren't but that's a pretty lame way of putting it. I think all of the stock trucks with manual transmissions have issues with the clutches behind a diesel and you will find people complaining about durability of them with all brands.

Read This (http://www.diesel-central.com/forums/thread.asp?ForumID=13&TopicID=2244)

Automatics? Dodge beefed up the auto but they are due for a real truck auto with at least 5 speeds. I don't think D/C is real comfortable with taking on an all new tranny. Development costs are tremendous. Wonder if they might go with the Allison or some other outside vendor in the future so they can contain development costs?

Either way, Dodge is greatly improved in the 03-up diesel market. Not to mention an awful lot of happy campers since they introduced the first Cummins pickups in '89.

May the wars continue (diesel wars) Edited by: hoot

A friend of mine just bought a new 600 cummins nice looking truck. My wife asked me why we didn't order a dodge instead of the gmc (she has a 70 challenger and a intrepid and I use to have a 00 v10) and I told her to go sit in it she looked in the back seat and said I don't think a car seat will fit back there she was suprised at how small the back seat is. The motor is alot quieter and had good power. I hope dodge fixed the ball joint probelm they had with the 00-02 trucks after about 30,000 they would get a wondering problem when pulling a trailer my 00 did another friend has a 01 his did it and I know a guy with a 02 that does it to replace the ball joints and it goes away.

Many of those issues have been addressed and what's left I'll be glad to put up with.

While the Cummins is surely an excellent engine I dont like the truck. It looks very cool from the front design but what kind of poor workmanship once you get in! There are no features like climate control, memory seats...and then the small space in rear. The resale value of a Dodge is also much less than Chevy (I have also the old RAM and NOBODY wants is for a reasonable price). There is no good automatic transmission available with the cummins just the old 4 gear 48 RE (or similar). The engine is probably the best of the 3 (GM, Ford and Crysler) but the rest surely is NOT IMHO.

Poor workmanship..... I disagree.

Climate control.... On my GMC it was junk and there are a few here that will agree.

Memory seats? I know the new Durango has them... not sure if the 2004's have them in the plushest trucks.

Small in the rear... yea but depends on how comfy you gotta have it.

Trans... Could use a better one but since he's thinking stock... many have had success with it.

I purposely stayed away from pushing a brand in my first response... I still don't push either one but don't get me started http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

I miss the auto headlights in my GMC.... guess I shoulda got another one http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


I disagree also my 2000 Dodge was tight as day one with 106000 on it,and the new one is just plain awsome,the only complaint I can find is some wind noise in the drivers door,time will tell if it stays tight like the old one,but so far I love it.I never had any ball joint problems,I never had tranny problems,but read so much on how much better it would be with some improvments so I did the DTT stuff and made it even better.Look I know guys who dropped Chevy for Ford and Dodge guys dropping Dodge for some reason or another,it all boils down to what you like and the experience you have had with that item,and it the said item gives you grief then it is on to something eles,me,I found it in Dodge,and not just for the Cummins,I like the whole package,I have alway had Fords til I sold my 99 PSD and ended up with a Dodge because Ford refused to deal and it has been a happy experience,it was scarry at first,but I will never look back.And to be honest,before I bought this 2004 Dodge,I checked with my brother,he is a chevy guy,he works for GM in Grand Rapids,he promised with his discounts I could have gotten a DMAX and maybe I would have but his best deal didnt even come close to the Dodge,he is disapointed,but I am happy as all get out.


No one would believe me if I told them what I put my 99PSD and my 2000 Dodge through,they would call me a liar,but all I can say is the Dodge held up the best hands down.
Edited by: DGFoster

Hoot,


I miss the auto headlights in my GMC.... guess I shoulda got another one http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif Yes, you should have!!!





they can handle fuel pumped into the crankcase quite well but I'll bet the LLY won't. What makes you say that???


You bought the Dodge, so just drive it and us Dmax owners will drive ours and everyones a happy camper. Nuf said!!!

Hoot


Not to mention the Dodge is tinnier than the GMC ie sheetmetal is thinner..and you pay more for insurance on the Dodge...just my observation...


happy trails

Hoot


Not to mention the Dodge is tinnier than the GMC ie sheetmetal is thinner..and you pay more for insurance on the Dodge...just my observation...


happy trails





How can someone be so WRONG!!

DG Foster





don't know how you can be so wrong....when I traded my 01 Dodge off on my 04 GMC my insurance dropped $600/year...same coverage .. same company....the tinnier part is calculated on the amount of effort it took to drive a polebarn spike through the bed of the box... that's what I used for a center punch to mark the holes for my fifth wheel hitch... I went through the Dodge box with one hit of the hammer and it took 5+ hits to do it on the GMC... nuff said..





again happy trails...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Well everytime I have priced out a GM truck,I call and get quotes for insurance,and the GM is always higher,and as far as tinny I dont think so,the metal on the Dodge is WAY heavier than the chevy.

I was surprised that the insurance for the 4x4 GMC Diesel was cheaper than either our mini-van or my E-350. Doesn't make sense.

oops....I hit the wrong button... insurance dropped $100/year... not $600/year... still $100 is still $100.....sorry....more money for toys..

Hoot,



they can handle fuel pumped into the crankcase quite well but I'll bet the LLY won't. <font color="blue"> What makes you say that???</font>


<font color="red">You bought the Dodge, so just drive it and us Dmax owners will drive ours and everyones a happy camper. Nuf said!!!</font>

Ford's 6 liter has the same turbo. Every time the injectors fill the crankcase the turbo goes with it.

Another thing I thought about when I changed brands.

Not that I would expect injector problems. I got back from Muncie Monday morning 1 am. Got up yesterday and did a few things. Went to the local steak shop and got a Philly cheese steak and sat in. There were a few guys there I know just from seeing around. They were liking my Dodge. The one guy, Walter, after a little while said he had a Dmax. I said where is it? He says it's an 03... bought it used. 25,000 miles. He said it was hard starting. It's at the dealer right now (NUCAR, New Castle, De.) getting injectors as we speak.

So I come home from Muncie and the first real people I talk to out of the blue in a sandwich shop are telling me the injector blues. I'm not typing this to knock the DMax... I'm typing this because it was exactly what occured yesterday and it sucks to keep hearing it. I hope I don't have the same issues with my Bosch injectors.Edited by: hoot

Note: The Ford and GM Variable Vane Turbo's are NOT the same. The Ford vanes are electronically actuated and the Chev/GM are hydraulically actuated. Although the concepts of operation are similar, the operation and design are different, and have different performance histories.

Note: The Ford and GM Variable Vane Turbo's are NOT the same. The Ford vanes are electronically actuated and the Chev/GM are hydraulically actuated. Although the concepts of operation are similar, the operation and design are different, and have different performance histories.

I believe the core is exactly the same.

Wouldnt it be nice, Cummins/Allison, in a 2500-HD GMC.


Even better in a 3500 drw!

I personally like both trucks, and the Dodge really does look nice with the unique body and 17" wheels.


But when it came down to it....what I needed was a Diesel that could tow on the highway AND be an auto. The Dodge is only a viable option in 6-speed form IMO. And the ford was eliminated for it's ancient solid front axle/leaf spring design (on 4X4s).

Sure wished I had popped a cold one before I read all these posts. Soooooo, same sh_t, different day! Guys/Gals, Ford, GM and Dodge all have their respective plus's and minus's, 100% FACT! For every crap Ford story someone has I'll raise you a crap Dodge, then GM, etc. These are machines pushing awesome power/torque under a wide variety of driving and operational conditions - problems, you bet! I'm new to this site (just joined today but have been reading for weeks), and one of the things I liked most was the amount of intel everyone brought to the site. Hoot has posted almost 3000 times on this site, numerous members applauded his expertise and help. How quick we forget. So he bought a Dodge, BFD. His money, his truck! Would I want him under the hood helping out if I had an engine problem, you betcha! Each of us made the right decision in our purchases, right? We researched the products, asked around, looked through various websites, etc. Yeah I saw where the DMAX had injector problems; Powerstrokes throwing rods; Dodge transmission issues. I still went and drove all of them. Out here!

It only took 1 test drive in that kidney bustin buckin bronco Dodge to convince me that the IFS was the way to go.


I'd buy the chevy on ride alone.


Mark

My 2500 bounces around like a rubber ball- 2500 miles and I'm going to go to the Bilsteins to overcome the lousy factory suspenders. I'll agree with JJ - every maker has some plusses, some minuses. I'm not wild about the fan clutch and the extreme low end lag...but, i love my truck.

yeah- the darn thing spilled coffee on me- That drew the line- new shocks for mine too.

Well, you all have proven once again that no mfr is perfect. I'm new to this diesel thing. I was thinking about an older diesel (pre-2000 - how do you guys deal with putting out $30 - 40K for a pickup?) to pull a small race car and trailer. I thought the reliability of the diesel would be better than gas and better mileage too.


But from what I hear the diesels have as many quirks as the gassers - and sound a hell of a lot more expensive to fix! By the way, while kicking tires on a lot a couple of days ago, I test drove an '01 Ford 350 with the 5.4 gas. 215,000 miles and the engine purred! Now that's too many miles but that gasser sounded like a new one.


Any thoughts on a '97 GM 6.5 diesel vs a '97 Ford Powerstroke? Both have about 130,000 miles. The GM's manual, the Ford's auto. Both appear very clean.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

Jayhawk. Don't misinterpret what we are all saying: GM, Dodge and Ford diesels are bad ass trucks! Yeah we all bitch and moan about problems we're having, many of which are self inflicted cause we likes to slam our asses back in the seat when we hits da peddle. But you rarely see anyone beating feet back to a gasser. The 5.4L is a notorious gas guzzler, even in the F150 it sucks a tank fast. I suspect it is within the minimal towing range for what you are going to tow. My 02 Avalanche 5.3 never got better MPG than my 3500 D/A dually. I tow heavy (17-18k) so I need the HP/TQ the diesel offers. Sounds like you will tow a load as well. The Ford 7.3 was well liked when they stopped production for the 6.0. I believe the 97 was pretty noisey though. I looked at an 02 F350 dually with 7.3 and they wanted $34k with 32000 on the odometer. Seems like diesels are holding their values better as well. As for the 6.5 I'll yield to others on those. Good luck!

well, i agree with what alot of guys said, anyone can have a problem with anything, i hear horror stories about all 3, cummins, the new 6.0 powerstroke, and the duramax. I just have always been die hard chevy/ GM, and so far love the duramax. And I do feel that of all the trucks, the Chevy has the best interior, not only for the features, but overall fit and finish, and ergonomics. And you cant beat the feeling of the seats.

Jayhawk


I'm a GM guy, and I personally know a guy with 300k on his stock 6.5 turbo(no rebuilds gaskets or anything), but I would tend to think the 97 PSD is the way to go. We have two 7.3 PSD's on our farm and they both run great. Very reliable and great pulling power. I think the motor would be the same as a 97, somebody correct me if I'm wrong.


If somebody knows why Ford and or Navistar chose to ditch the 7.3 and go with the 6.0 let me know. Why didn't they just put common rail injection on them, push the HP up over 300, stick them in front of the new 5 speed tranny they got? They'd have a reliable setup that would be competitive without the problems they have now.

Just alittle note my buddy bought 2004 quad cab dodge 3500 with cummings high output 5.9, I own 2003 2500HD extended cab 6.6.We both tow 35' trailers pull thru mountains in Vermont, New York he could not keep up with the DMAX. He put $2000.00 into banks 6 gun and changed everything in the truck blew his warranty and everything and guess what still can't catch the DMAX at all not even on flat land!But he still loves his dodge and I love the DMAX!

“I think all of the stock trucks with manual transmissions have issues with the clutches behind a diesel and you will find people complaining about durability of them with all brands.”

Hoot, I disagree.

My 95 6.5 5-Speed Transmission/Clutch had no problems. Though I only had 82K when I sold it, half of that mileage was off road in 4X4 with healthy elevation changes and a lot of clutch use in extremely dusty conditions. Though I did have one injector pump change, I would still have that truck if it were a 4-door.

My dad had a 01 and a 04 Dodge/Cummins and both trucks had bad rear ends and transmissions. The 04 was turned in under the lemon law with a number of issues listed elsewhere to include a transmission failure at less than 100 miles.

My 85 Dodge had 9 complete brake changes (to include replacing the drums and rotors) in 140K. One thing that no one will tell you at Dodge, if you take of the box and say put on a flat bed you will void the warranty with “most” Dodge dealers. I know this from experience as one emergency department in the west returned a Dodge rescue to us because they would not honor the warranty on their (Dodge) brakes (failed in 5K). We had to sue Dodge to take the chassis back.

I am not a GM guy but when I have experience, know someone who has experience or am told by a fleet dealer “Not” to buy their product (Ford diesel) you don’t have to hit me with a board to make me get it.

Any thoughts on a '97 GM 6.5 diesel vs a '97 Ford Powerstroke? Both have about 130,000 miles. The GM's manual, the Ford's auto. Both appear very clean.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif





97 was a good year for the Ford. Watch cylinders 6-8, for they do have thinner water jackets at that area (DT-444 was a little weak there and at 200,000 miles there was repots of failures in the 4700 series Navistar’s) but you really should be concerned with the auto transmission and the “T”-case in the Ford. To bad the GM was not a 99, they had better cooling but you could update that easily to the two-port thermostat neck and the manual transmission is bulletproof.

Jayhawk


If somebody knows why Ford and or Navistar chose to ditch the 7.3 and go with the 6.0 let me know. Why didn't they just put common rail injection on them, push the HP up over 300, stick them in front of the new 5 speed tranny they got? They'd have a reliable setup that would be competitive without the problems they have now.

Main reason: fuel economy. Ford said, "Build us an engine that gets better mileage, or we'll go somewhere else. Oh and while you're at it, give us improved power and make it as quiet as our gas motor." Then the EPA stepped in and said, "It needs to have lower emissions too."

They were mainly taking aim at the then-new DuraMax. Super quiet (at idle anyways), better mileage (sorta), and 300hp (when cold.)

So the easy start for fuel economy and lower emissions is to start with a smaller motor, and just add boost to compensate for the lack of performance (think 4-cyl turbo vs. V8.) Similar power when under boost and full load - and better economy and less emissions when not.

Making it quiet has been kind of a disaster which I won't get into.Edited by: OmniGLH

Jayhawk



If somebody knows why Ford and or Navistar chose to ditch the 7.3 and go with the 6.0 let me know. Why didn't they just put common rail injection on them, push the HP up over 300, stick them in front of the new 5 speed tranny they got? They'd have a reliable setup that would be competitive without the problems they have now.




Main reason: fuel economy. Ford said, "Build us an engine that gets better mileage, or we'll go somewhere else. Oh and while you're at it, give us improved power and make it as quiet as our gas motor." Then the EPA stepped in and said, "It needs to have lower emissions too."




Naw – just EPA, they say a lot and FMC does buy a lot of engines but……….

International (Navistar) was the first to meet EPA 2004 emissions (with the VT-365 replacing the DT-444 (AKA Powerstroke)) and they currently meet EPA’s 2007 emission standards (ala DT-570 replacing the DE-530). The Cummins ISB may go the way of the ISC. For those of you who do not know about the ISC, it went bye-bye because of heat rejection issues and a few other things that would not allow it to meet EPA 2004. You Dodge guys better hold on to your Cummins trucks because you will more than likely get the MBE (Mercedes MB 100/200/300) engine real-real soon. On the bright side, you will be able to reminisce on how “cheap” the parts were for “your-old” “12/24-valve” because MB is going to hose you. And what the heck, you will probably get a real transmission like the one that is in the Unimog and end up playing in the Hummer H1 price range and prestige arena. Think about it, were paying almost 50k for a truck now……..

So DocRobbs,


Going back to your original post, now that we have inundated you with all this info have you decided what you are going to buy? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Question.gif

Hi Doc, I love the way they get off the subject saying this is better than that i.e. Mine is better than yours!!! Well Doc I own 2 dodge cummins and 2 duramaxes and haven't had any problems with either - we do our own maintenance and do all before recommended intervals - the only thing i can see is that the gmc is a lot more enjoyable for ME to drive. That is your decisionand you need to test drive to know - then buy it, you'll be happy!!

Well I left on vacation and it was gone when I got back. I had decided not to get it anyway. I will definately in the future get a CC LB 1 ton SRW diesel.

I was sure it was going to be a GM product but now I'm not so sure. I have always liked the Cummins engine but didn't like the truck. Dodge seems to be getting better (especially with rumors of a true crew cab for 2005) and I'm not so sure of GM. I am currently having front end problems with the Yukon XL that no one seems to be able to figgure out. That IFS isn't looking so good right now.

Since GM is not putting the DMax in Suburban/Yukon XL's I actually even got my wife looking at Excursions and she is as hard core GM as they get. From what I hear the 6.0 engine has got the initial kinks pretty well worked out.

I had had my truck picked out and ordered before but when things didn't work out (It came with the wrong engine) I held up.

Now I think I'm going to wait until I'm ready to plunk down the money and then drive as many trucks as I can before I decide.

Thanks for all the help and entertainment.

Wouldnt it be nice, Cummins/Allison, in a 2500-HD GMC.

Hmmm ... my vote would be for a CAT/Allison!
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif

Bill

Hmmm ... my vote would be for a CAT/Allison!
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif

Bill


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif Here we go with the "CAT" thing again.Edited by: 1FSTDSL

To bad the GM was not a 99, they had better cooling but you could update that easily to the two-port thermostat neck and the manual transmission is bulletproof.


The cooling upgrade started with the '97 model year.

I went through all of this a year ago Doc. I was outgrowing my 1500 Silverado 5.3 Z71 extended cab, i.e towing a 15,000lb trailer behind a 1/2 ton was just asking for trouble, so I went shopping. And believe me, I tried them all, actually had a 3/4 ton Dodge Cummins for a whole weekend.


Don't get me wrong, they are all great trucks in their own right but I found the GMC had the best overall package. The Duramax is a great engine, the cummins may have a little better track record, the 6.0l Ford turned me on with it's awsome power but turned me off with it's major teething problems. The Allison is by far the best automatic tranny although Ford may have a winner with their new Torqueshift, and the GMC was a much nicer truck to drive and finished nicer inside, I found when I drove the Dodge it felt like I was in a Freightliner whereas the GMC didn't feel much different then my 1/2 ton. The ford extended cab is pretty much useless and the crew cab looks like a bus. The Dodge is a very nice looking truck but when the dealer put the 285's on my GMC it was like the wife puttin on her bikini, I can't stop[ looking at her. That's my story and i'm stickin' to it.

I found when I drove the Dodge it felt like I was in a Freightliner whereas the GMC didn't feel much different then my 1/2 ton.

I agree

I am new to the board as far as posting goes. Have been reading a ton of the diesel sites for a long while now but stay away from most due to the negitivity on them.


Thought I had a little to offer on this thread though. All three diesels seem to be having some growing pains. But hey who are we to complain? When have we ever had the levels of power offered in "light duty" trucks that are available today and be able to get the fuel economy that we can. Sure all three GM, Dodge and Ford are having injector problems. They will be sorted out though. As to the GM and Ford Turbo's and Trannies, you Dodge guys just wish you had them. When Dodge finally wakes up and produces a real crew cab with a 5 or 6 speed auto they may be something to be reconed with, if they still have Cummins, but till then there is a reason they are number 3 in sales.


I will not say which brand I drive but I do like this forum for it's objectivity.

I am new to the board as far as posting goes.
Have been reading a ton of the diesel sites for a long while now but
stay away from most due to the negitivity on them.


Thought I had a little to offer on this thread though. All
three diesels seem to be having some growing pains. But hey who
are we to complain? When have we ever had the levels of power
offered in "light duty" trucks that are available today and be able to
get the fuel economy that we can. Sure all three GM, Dodge and
Ford are having injector problems. They will be sorted out
though. As to the GM and Ford Turbo's and Trannies, you
Dodge guys just wish you had them. When Dodge finally wakes up
and produces a real crew cab with a 5 or 6 speed auto they may be
something to be reconed with, if they still have Cummins, but till then
there is a reason they are number 3 in sales.


I will not say which brand I drive but I do like this forum for it's objectivity.



Ford http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif



Did I guess right? Hey don't let those neg comments deter you. I give
and take, get mad, say and do dumb stuff but I get over it and move on.
Lot's to talk about and poke at. All in fun or to the point. Some can
take it some can't.



I don't consider any of the trucks the best right now. GM blew it again
with fuel system problems big time just like the 6.5TD. Here we are in
the fourth model year and the engine is getting worse, not better. What
are they gonna do next? Many owners are so tickled with the performance
that having injectors go bad isn't a biggy. Go figure. Nice trucks
though. Roomy and comfortable.



Ford... I haven't liked Ford's design and build quality for a very long time.



Dodge.... holding their own... need a better trans bad. This one isn't
terrible but you can tell they have it set up for protection. Also too
much slip in the TC. RPMs drop alot when the TC locks. It's one fun
truck to drive and own. I get looks no matter where I go .. some nasty
but mostly thumbs up. I had somebody wave me down on the highway just
to talk. Highway mileage coming back from CT GTG was 20-21. Can't beat
that.

Edited by: hoot

You say GM blew it with the fuel design but correct me if I am wrong here. Both use a Bosch High Pressure Common rail. Some minor differences in where the injectors are located but mostely the same. If you believe what you read out here on never never land Dodge/Cummins starting to see the same failures with the 04.5 truck with the injectors. TDR site did a poll and it was 20%. Were both not designed to be run on European fuel?


Yes I do have the dreaded 6.0 PSD 17K trouble free miles.

You say GM blew it with the fuel design but correct
me if I am wrong here. Both use a Bosch High Pressure Common
rail. Some minor differences in where the injectors are located
but mostely the same. If you believe what you read out here on
never never land Dodge/Cummins starting to see the same failures with
the 04.5 truck with the injectors. TDR site did a poll and it was
20%. Were both not designed to be run on European fuel?


Yes I do have the dreaded 6.0 PSD 17K trouble free miles.



Yes the same basic injector designs. I'm hoping the Cummins won't have
the same problems. I don't trust any forum poll. Right now there are
not a lot of injector issue posts.



Wish you well with your PSD. Overall they are nice trucks.