I sure would'nt mind converting my front end to straight axle.


Can someone give me a short rundown on whats involved?


Is it just too much trouble or money?


What would you use? A new Dana 60 or maybe a used transplant from ??


I intend to keep this beauty for a LONG time so I might be able to justify it since (IMO) the IFS is the only shortcoming of these trucks.

There are several companies out there that offer SFA swap kits, you will need to do your homework and find out which one is best for you and what you want to do with it. You will be looking at a chunk of change and it will be a lengthy process. Good installer can do it in about 6 days, lots of work goes in to it just from what I have seen being around a 4WD shop that does these. IMHO it is not worth it, they look funny and ride like s**t after this has been done. Good luck and oh Dana 60 if you do it.

You have to be kidding? Later! Frank

I am down for it, that is my first project when i can get that kinda $ together. Its funny you spend $2000 on a IFS kit and you can get a Straigh-axle conversion for $750 plus an axle, so you might be into it about $1500 in parts, if you have the time and you know the end of a wrench and welder, why not!!!


I have a Dodge also and it rides like Sh*t, but you know what, Its a truck! my Chev rides too much like a car, some people want that, I dont! I actually Wheel my truck, unlike most of the pavement queens on this website, 35" tires just arent enough and im not gonna shell out another $2000 for an 8" kit that fits 37" tires, when i can spend that much and run as big of a tire as i want. I will take 2 REAL axles over an IFS anyday!!!

PAVEMANT QUEENS????? No need to be rude. Were all on the same team here. There's one cruzin around here, but it looks funny. I don't miss the ride of my old Dodge 12V. I guess I'm just an old fuddy duddy that like a little more comfort. You can pirate one from a wrecked Dodge. They wore the Dana 60s. Alot of work though. I have the fix for the weak IFS so I'm not worried about it. Super Diesel

Super,


Are you set up for paypal yet?


I know I want the sleeves, but Im really debating the link.


Do I need the link? Im not a drag racer or sled puller, but I tow my 9K trailer on some rough canyon trails...

I'm not too hip on IFS either, but I personally am even less enthused about torching the front of my $48,000 truck right now.
The other shortcoming of the GM product is the smallish wheel wells. That's part of the reason why you've got to lift it up to stupid heights to put big tires on it. Instead of stuffing the tires like on the Ford or Dodge you've got to go high enough to get on top of them in other words. Moving the bumper forward will help but the wheel openings themselves are still small. I hate that. I think the wheel openings need to be completely reworked by GM to satisfy off road enthusiasts. The pocketed cutout flares for the Ford are the way it's supposed to be done in my opinion. Another thought is to look to someone who races full size trucks off road, like Baja or Trophy Truck racing, for some wide opening and flared replacement fiberglass fenders. That might look pretty slick, but you would likely have to butcher the bed to get the package to look right.

Look to Off Road Unlimited for complete kits with choices regarding steering and spring length. They can even build the axle for you if you wish--Dana 60 being the minimum with 35 spline axles. Spend the money on the good leaf packs--thin multi-leaves and high quality shocks.

I'm sure it's not a hard job to do. Just measure everything twice or...thrice.

On second thought you could keep the IFS and go with a locker in the front like the Eaton e-locker or the ARB with some gears. With a real locker in the back you will have pretty good off road performance with this package. You will not achieve the same contact pressure that the solid axle has for traction, but don't forget that the H1 Hummer is IFS and IRS and is very capable...even for it's power to weight ratio.

PAVEMANT QUEENS????? No need to be rude. Were all on the same team here.


I did not mean that to be rude, I was just pointing out the fact that more than half of trucks with lifts on them never see anything but pavement. (personal experience, me being an off-road tech). I am in favor of IFS on alot of vehicles, just not vehicles that are meant to be used. I wince everytime I put my 3300# camper on my Chev and go back into the deep woods to find a place to camp and hunt. Wondering if this is gonna be the time when that CV axle craps out, or the torsion bars fail. Dont really have that problem with my Ram, solid axles rock!!!


Yes H1's have Independent suspension front and rear, but they are engineered way past the point of the IFS on our trucks. If my Chev had the same IFS that is on the H1 I would for sure leave it alone, but that is a totally different monster.

I have the fix for the weak IFS so I'm not worried about it. Super Diesel


What is this fix? thanks -Jeff

"...way past..." Qualify or quantify that remark, please.


[Yes H1's have Independent suspension front and rear, but they are engineered way past the point of the IFS on our trucks. If my Chev had the same IFS that is on the H1 I would for sure leave it alone, but that is a totally different monster.
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So how is the IFS on the H1 different from that of the 3/4 ton truck?</DIV>

The type of Independent suspension that it is, is what makes it "engineered way past" our trucks. If you have ever actually looked or worked on a Hummer and Our trucks you would know that they are different, on the H1 the CV's go into the top of what on our trucks is the steering knuckle, with the gears in the "knuckle" it allows for a stronger connection to the wheel than just a splined CV shaft. Because of this you increase ground clearance (no CV in the middle of wheel) and it allows you the opportunity to have the CTIS (central tire inflation system), and it has proven to be significantly stronger than many other systems. I am not an engineer but I do know what works and what doesnt, while both suspensions do work, the H1 works better. I really like how there are no torion bars!!! Have you ever compared the two vehicles side by side?

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gifI'm just quizzin' you to see how shallow or deep your knowledge really is. </v:stroke></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:ulas></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shape></v:imagedata></v:shape>
I have looked at both, but not side-by-side. I do have a very good memory though, making such a comparison largely unnecessary.
I would say that a CV is still a CV no matter where you hook it up.

Since you mention ground clearance, I take it that is an inference to a concern there with the truck IFS, but so many times the IFS in fact offers superior ground clearance to the solid axle set up because of the lack of a heavy duty pumpkin hanging down like one on the Dana-60, tire-for-tire, and thus there is the market for high clearance 60's that a few of the custom axle shops build.

The more valid concerns are more moving parts with the IFS, no fewer with the H1 mind you like the materials themselves---cast aluminum differentials, not-so-tough axle stubs, inferior designed control arms when compared to how "I would build it" with heavy tubing. The other concern is like mentioned before the inherent inability of the IFS to provide adequate contact pressure for the tires&gt;&gt;&gt;this leading to slipping and spinning causing higher drive-line speeds and then when you hook up...BOOM...you break something (potentially).

It's interesting to me that there has been what I would call a high rate of casualties in Iraq from soldiers rolling their Hummers. It could be the case of some hot-rodding going on, as it is clear they are not being supervised as they should. But, still surprising considering the 4-wheel traction capabilities of the Hummer with it's wide wheel base which lends to a lower center of gravity to tire height ratio than other vehicles running 37's.

H1's are not in the same category, and are almost an anomoly as it pertains to IFS suspensions and more importantly drivetrain. The REASON H1s can get away with IFS, is the portals. Without portals, the H1s would be crap - I've wheeled them, and the clearance is cool, but the suspension is not all that impressive. The drivetrain is the major enabler, not the IFS "design"...


I agree that if you wheel it, solid axles are the way to go for a lot of reasons...


Myself, I have an offroad vehicle for that, so I'd take a 2WD Ford or Dodge before I subjected myself to a 4WD of one of them...

U also see the H1 breaking the 1/2 shaft, now how is that going to hold up to two times the torque and HP.


We have a pretty tough front end, espacially w/ SD's parts.


We had a 10 bolt GM corporate axle in a 3/4 ton truck and kept twisting off the u joint straps http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif

I've driven HUMVEEs since their release in the Army. The A arms are big and stout. Not tube steel but large stampings. CV's may be a weak spot but remember the wheel hub is geared down 2+:1??. This means the CV's are seeing less torque and could be upgraded. They also don't see the misalignment.


Granted the 6.2 and 6.5 engines are nothing like a Dmax but I've put enough serious offroad miles, in 4lo too, to know the drivetrain takes a serious beating. I see the H1 is slated for the H1. I would expect the detune switch in 4lo with a Dmax. You just don't need the power.


Concerning rollovers. They are a bit squirrly on the road empty if the rear suspension isn't loaded. Look at a military one the next time you'll see what I mean. They aren't high speed cornering machines. I'm sure some rollovers are foolish driving but try driving at night cross country or the next time you take an easier path remember others don't have a choice.

I would try to find a wrecked 3rd gen HD Dodge. That way you could use the front AAM axle to match the rear. If converting to solid axle putting a couple spring pads on the axle would be nothing, unless you wanted to run coils like the Dodge.

Read (Track Bar) in this section. If our CV joints are standing up to over 1000 F/P of torque from these trucks while pulling and racing, we might be better off than you think. I did the off road thing for a while, then after being tired of replacing worn out parts in the suspension, I got some Polaris ATVs to do the job. They are much better built for it. I've put massive doeses of power to my truck in 4WD launches and never had a problem. I carry a 4000+ pound camper all over the country and Can. and Mex. in numerous semi off road conditions, and never had a problem with the front end. They are much tougher than you think. Super Diesel

They are much tougher than you think. Super Diesel


I guess my bias just comes from working on broken suspension parts, more Chevy than anything else, I just feel it is a weak link, and it could be solved by replacing it with a Solid axle. JMHO.

Do you think solid axles don't break? Stub shafts, hubs, and axle joints all break and all need to be upgraded for real offroading with tires over 35inch.

I should also point out I would do the swap if I was to lift my truck and go with a dynatrac pro roc 60.

As soon as my IFS wears out I will be putting a solid under my pickup.


I will just pull a 60 from a old F30 and weld on some control arm brackets.


I will use arms about 45" long and in a dual Radius arm type setup. Spring it with a set of coilovers in some variation.


Steering will be full hydro.


Cost will be around 4k total I imagine but that will be the goodbye of the only weak link my pickup has.

Do you think solid axles don't break? Stub shafts, hubs, and axle joints all break and all need to be upgraded for real offroading with tires over 35inch.


Really? I thought that they were bulletproof. Oh wait, maybe when I was 5, R U Serious??? If I had a dollar for every Dana 35 axle shaft I have replaced I would already have a solid axle under my truck! Not to mention Fords 8.8" POS. If you compared the IFS in our trucks to a Solid axle, in an off-road environment, the solid axle will win everytime, hands down. -Jeff

Is it just too much trouble or money?
Way to much trouble than it's worth!



You will be looking at a chunk of change and it will be a lengthy process. Good installer can do it in about 6 days, lots of work goes in to it just from what I have seen being around a 4WD shop that does these. IMHO it is not worth it, they look funny and ride like s**t after this has been done. Good luck and oh Dana 60 if you do it.
This man knows what he's talking about. Everything he said is true.



Its funny you spend $2000 on a IFS kit and you can get a Straigh-axle conversion for $750 plus an axle, so you might be into it about $1500 in parts, if you have the time and you know the end of a wrench and welder, why not!!!
You can have my truck tomorrow with $2000 cash in hand if you can get it done for that price. Fact is a SFA conversion will run you a minimum of $10k when it's all said and done. Think about it if you could do a swap for less than the cost of an IFS lift there would be a ton of them running around on this board. BTW there is ALOT more to the SFA lift than the $750 spring hangers!



The REASON H1s can get away with IFS, is the portals.
Another man that knows what he's talking about. What we need is someone to design a set of portals for the HDs!

You can have my truck tomorrow with $2000 cash in hand if you can get it done for that price. Fact is a SFA conversion will run you a minimum of $10k when it's all said and done. Think about it if you could do a swap for less than the cost of an IFS lift there would be a ton of them running around on this board. BTW there is ALOT more to the SFA lift than the $750 spring hangers!




I didnt say I would do someone elses rig for $2000, I said I could do my own for $2000, (when i say $2000 i dont charge myself labor, which is where a HUGE chunk of the $10k comes from). I know that there are companies out there that will do a turnkey swap for about $10k, but that is not what i was talking about. If you have the time and the know-how it can be done for $2000. Honestly if there was no way to swap in a solid axle other than paying someone $10k to do it, I would much rather leave the IFS alone and fix whatever breaks, I am sure that you could break it quite a few times before you even came close to $10k.


I guess i succeeded in "stirring the pot" -Jeff

Way to much trouble than it's worth!


Another man that knows what he's talking about. What we need is someone to design a set of portals for the HDs!


I dont agree with the first statement. I agree with the second statement, it would be VERY sweet if someone would come out with a portal for the chev, but it would be even more of a PITA than swapping in a Solid axle. JMHO. -Jeff

Surprised this one is still going, but maybe I have something relevant to add...
Going on nearly twenty years ago, I had a '54 Chevy pick-up--it was sitting behind a gas station in Texas when I picked it up, an Oklahoma truck--five window, running well with a very straight body. The idea was to modify it (heavily), add a V-8; auto; custom this, custom that; etc. The point being, at the time part of doing an engine swap properly at the time was to get rid of the solid beam axle and leaf springs in the front and put something more modern and refined on. Many guys at the time were putting Camaro front clips on--cut the frame near the firewall and then put it back together, sometimes using Mustang steering gear.
What I did was trade my still-healthy original six cylinder and the rest of the drive train to a guy who sells NOS for old Chevy trucks for a suspension off of a 1/2 '83 Chevy pick-up---cross member, control arms, coil springs and all. This was very complete and in excellent condition and in many ways not too different from what the H1 runs regarding suspension (making a distinction between SUSPENSION and drive train here)---upper and lower control arms and coil springs. Now, this was a sweet deal in my opinion because my neighbor happened to have an '83 Chevy pick-up in his driveway.
The swap could not have been easier. Torching off the original suspension was a piece of cake and for all intents and purposes the late model set-up was a bolt-on. I simply had to have a couple of a little less than one inch spacer plates machined to fit in between the original frame and the '83 suspension assembly. Having the truck next door gave me the ability to check and recheck all angles and measurements during the project. I was able the use factory motor mounts as they mounted to the '83 cross member and allowed the new engine to sit back and low for a good install. The fab work was light weight stuff---upper shock mounts and there was a little work to be done for the headers...ended up running fender well headers for '55-57 Chevys with the primaries re-worked a bit on the driver's side to run the steering shaft through. Late model steering box, tilt steering wheel out of a van, and power steering were all nearly complete bolts-ons. The truck would do over 130mph and could be steered with one finger. And yes after all things were checked it was welded between frame and spacer plate and spacer plate and cross member to finish and safe up the job.
I think it's relevant to the conversation and don't really see this stuff as being hard...only requiring some nuts when you start hacking on a $40,000+ truck and great attention to detail when pulling it off. It's a hobby for me and a very expensive one I might add...it's really the equivalent of having a hobby flushing money down the toilet because, IMO, sinking money into a car is one of the ultimate wastes of money---you very rarely get back what you put into it..... But it's fun, if that makes it okay.
Someone might want to try this or talk to Avalanche Engineering about some portals...no doubt it can be done. It just depends on how much you want to flush.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif
&nbs

It's a hobby for me and a very expensive one I might add...it's really the equivalent of having a hobby flushing money down the toilet because, IMO, sinking money into a car is one of the ultimate wastes of money---you very rarely get back what you put into it..... But it's fun, if that makes it okay.



I agree!! the only way I can justify doing a swap like that is that I am plannning on keeping this truck forever. Anyways I wish i was rich, so i could just throw $ at the truck. Oh well, its nice to dream.Edited by: wsucowboy

Don't talk smack about the 8.8. That thing has been through hell in the back of my buggy and to this day lives and breathes. (coarse my buggy is only 3500 lbs...lol


10k? Hell no. I'll do every single one you can send me for 6k. You just need to know WTF is going on. This is a simple leaf suspension. I have done a couple Toys and the Chebby is just a bigger version.


Ford D80's run you about 1200 bucks once you get done with all the brakes and gearing.


Materials for the brackes cost you 200


Leaf springs cost you 500


Steering will cost you about 1k


You do the math. The rest is time and profit for me, I'll take all that business you can give me.


How do I know? A little bird told me I guess. But your getting ripped off if it is costing you 10k to do the work. Now if you start upgrading parts it can swallow as much money as you can through at it.


WSUcowboy- If you are serious and are looking for a front axle there are three available in Potlatch. They are out on Rock Creek at the Junk Yard. I was home 3 weeks ago and took a look at them. One had 3.73 gears as well so you would not have to regear.

Don't talk smack about the 8.8. That thing has been through hell in the back of my buggy and to this day lives and breathes. (coarse my buggy is only 3500 lbs...lol


WSUcowboy- If you are serious and are looking for a front axle there are three available in Potlatch. They are out on Rock Creek at the Junk Yard. I was home 3 weeks ago and took a look at them. One had 3.73 gears as well so you would not have to regear.





For a buggy that weighs 3500#'s an 8.8 is PERFECT. I had one in the back of my Ford Bronco, wait i take that back i actually ended up with 2 in the back of my Bronco, after the first one actually twisted up, the pinion was pointing through the floor!, oh and i broke both shafts @ the same time! I had bad luck with Fords, thats why I have a dodge and a cheby now!! -Jeff


Hmm, do you have any phone #'s? thanks -Jeff

Labor it not the majority of the cost. If you do the swap right it will cost you $10k, when I say right I'm talking crossover steering, ram steering assist, no cheap Superlift springs I'm talking Deavers or Alcans, D60 w/ locker, working ABS, proper drivershaft, working 4wd etc. I have proven a number of people wrong about this, they say it can be done for only a couple grand and when they start collecting parts and doing the labor they realize there are ALOT of miscellaneous things they didn't account for. I'm not trying to argue about it just stating what I've learned over tha past couple years. If you can get it done for what you say you can more power to you. Best of luck.

I agree with the guys saying it's high(er) $. Rule of thumb is always double what you think it'll cost you. Unless you got a shop quoting you $6k and you can hold them to it, it's unlikely...


Yeah, a boneyard axle can be cheap, assuming you can find the exact/correct pinion offset and wheel mounting flange width. Hand-made brackets can be made, but you need to put a value on them, cuz they take a lot of time (I've probably made hundreds, and I'd rather buy 'em when I can). Doing the steering RIGHT, so you don't have bumpsteer, etc, is harder than it looks (can be designed/copied, but is not cheap - you've got 2 bar and TREs), and I guarantee the above average guy/shop will have iterations on the steering to get it "perfect". Working ABS - that I'd like to see from the average mechanic/shop... Probably requires machining at the least. Driveshaft, shocks, brakelines (most likely), rebuild of questionable boneyard axle components, etc; it all adds up...


Alaska Duramax: if you had a dozen of them to do at $6k each, I'm betting you'd make less than $1k each in profit. To do one for $6k, you'd lose your butt...


Am I saying a SAS isn't worthwhile on a GM - I don't really have an opinion. I'm just agreeing the cost is higher than you might guess...

Obviously Everyone has their own opinions, I truly believe I could do it for $2k and when I get the chance (and the $) I will. It might not have ABS but when it comes to driving off-road I would rather be the one that makes the braking decisions, not the ABS. I truly do live my ABS though, it has saved my A** on more than a couple occasions on the road, and a couple times in the dirt. But I like to have the feel of non-ABS brakes when I am in the dirt. JMHO! Im not trying to convert anyone to think like me I am just telling ya'll what I think. -Jeff

Alaska Duramax: if you had a dozen of them to do at $6k each, I'm betting you'd make less than $1k each in profit. To do one for $6k, you'd lose your butt...


Am I saying a SAS isn't worthwhile on a GM - I don't really have an opinion. I'm just agreeing the cost is higher than you might guess...





Send them my way and let me lose my butt.


I would not waste my time with Gay crossover steering. I would jump directly to a full hydrolic setup. 350 bucks for the ram, 200 for the arms, 100 for the rod ends and 350 for the Orbital valve. I make my own Hydro lines at about 20 bucks each. Tubing for the mount is 1.00 a foot. Need about 4-5 feet. Tubing to go with the rod ends is about 2.00 a foot need 3 feet or so.


ABS would also go by the wayside. But this is my opinion. I don't like abs in any form or in any conditions. To get this to work your right the price would be driven up.


I would run National springs built to my leangth and spring rate. Yes 500 clams will get me that. Might not get you that, but I know it will get me that.


Driveline....250 dollars if you have someone else make it. I have had probably 20 driveshafts made so this is what I base the price on. Less for me since I will reuse the old driveshaft and just retube it.


The difference between my homemade brackets and the bracktry you buy is ummmmmm nothing. 1/4" steel plate with a tad bit of 1/8 for bracing. Question is...Shackle to the front for better traction or shackle to the rear for a better ride? I would need to purchase 2 poly bushings either way 10 bucks each.


I again make my own brakelines. 10 bucks each, tops. Need two of them....


Finding the correct width front end is easy. F350 wide. The perches are easy to move. The bolt pattern is 8 lug. Called my local junk yard 3 availiable. one with the gearset of 3.73. Crapola I don't even need to regear, just new seals and maybe some bearings. Front end was 700 bucks and a full rebuild is One Days time and 200 bucks in parts plus whatever the brakes need (500 tops).


2591 dollars in parts. So I guess your right 2k seems kinda low. But 6k is well within my acceptable profit margin......Maybe not yours, but it is mine. It allows me 48.7 hours of wrenching at 70 bucks a hour. Let me take that risk.....lol. Oh and 70 a hour is prettymuch all profit since I own all my tools/workspace outright and insurance is covered via a different route.


Ownership of tools and workspace is a big deal and will drive that price to the 10k your thinking of quite fast....

LOL what you described is only a fraction of what it takesAs I said there are alot of misc things like with hydro assist steering you have to send the steering box out to get fitted. Don't forget you'll need a passanger side front diff, if you go w/ a driverside diff you'll need to replace the transfer case. National springs are ALOT more than $500. I got a deal on my 6" Deavers and I paid just under $600. National Springs will run you in the neighborhood for $800-1000. Don't forget that National usually has a month or so wait. I have no interest in a SFA but to those of you that do, best of luck getting it done for the prices you say you can. Peace out http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif

Oh boy... Man did we step in it this time. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif AlaskaDuramax - I don't challenge most of the things you said, but I feel one thing you said is TOTALLY assinine: Full Hydro! On a trail rig, sure. On a full-size diesel, which is likely to be put through towing duty: (I think) you'd be crazy to put full hydro on anyone else's rig, and if I saw you pulling a trailer with a rig running full hydro, I'd prolly call the cops on you!!! I wouldn't want myself or anyone I cared about on the same roads as a tow-rig running full-hydro... But a primarily trail, occasional street, and NO towing rig, I take no exception. There's a reason it's illegal in most parts for the vehicle itself, let alone if towing...


Ok, off that rant.


Yes, ownership of workspace &amp; tools comes in to play - I have most of the necessary tools myself (except a lift), but time is money. Spending an hour to make brackets at $70/hr means you're better off buying them, etc. If I run your math once again:
<UL>
<LI>$700 for axle</LI>
<LI>$400 for brakes (you said $500 tops)</LI>
<LI>$200 for seals, etc, prolly recommended for a boneyard axle</LI>
<LI>$150 for driveshaft (average b/t $250 and $50)</LI>
<LI>$500 for steering (NOT full-hydro!!!): DOM, TREs, hydro assist if ya feel peppy...</LI>
<LI>$500 for springs (honestly don't know about this one...)</LI>
<LI>$125 for shocks</LI>[/list]


Whatdya know - I come out with ~$2700 too... Let's look at the labor:
<UL>
<LI>4 hours to get axle from boneyard</LI>
<LI>8 hours to tear it apart, check everything, put everything together, including running to parts store to get the necessities.</LI>
<LI>8 hours removing old suspension, including cutting off old brackets on truck and axle</LI>
<LI>16 hours get everything "engineered" on new axle, making &amp; tacking brackets, driveshaft measurement, etc</LI>
<LI>4 hours getting everything welded, fine tuned, etc</LI>
<LI>2 hours painting</LI>
<LI>4 hours assembling</LI>
<LI>2 hours testing</LI>
<LI>2 hours fixing</LI>[/list]


Not far off of your estimate of 48 hrs... First time through will take you MUCH longer though, I predict - and that's where I say you'll lose if you did one. Do twenty, and you'd cut down a lot...


y2kboti: He said full-hydro, but hydro assist is butt-cheap. I've done a half-dozen boxes myself, and it's a couple hours at most to take 'em apart, drill &amp; tap, and reassemble. Ram's less than $100 too...


Well, this' been fun!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Yah Hydro assist is easy and cheap. take the box apart, tap two ports (in the correct spots, I'd tell you but it is a secret squirrel thing) reassemble.


As for the Full Hydro thing....Yep, I would, have and will. Call the cops, BFD. Coarse you might want to have the statute that actually says it is illegal......Do you have one handy? In all my years of tinkering with this stuff I have not found a single in writing statute that says as much.


Oh and what is so bad about Hydro steering. You tell me what is so bad about it and I will tell you why your wrong. This falls into much the same area as beadlock wheels.


It might take you a full work day to take a axle apart and put it together but I know for a fact it doesn't take me one.


8 hours to remove all the old stuff? Um no. Got Plasma cutter?


While I am cleaning the axle and tearing the axle apart the cnc plasma would be cutting out the brackets....lol Multi tasking....


More later, but it is doable.

Alaska Duramax full hydro is in fact illegal and it can be found in the vehicle code book. If you don't believe anyone here feel free to visit your local law enforcement agency. For those of you naive enough to say BFD how is a cop gonna know the difference between full hydro and hydro assist...THEY DO!

I for one am not about to buy a $40k truck to chop it up. if I want a SFA I'll go out and get myself and old Blazer for Bronco.Edited by: y2kboti

For those of you naive enough to say BFD how is a cop gonna know the difference between full hydro and hydro assist...THEY DO!


Wow, You must be Supercop, because most of the Cops out here arent smart enough to tell the difference between an IFS and a SFA. I even convinced a Stater that my Chev came factory with HID's!!!!


I would hate to run into you on the road, you sound like one of those a*al annie cops that pull people over and walk around the rig just looking for something to give a ticket for. Dont get me wrong, I dont hate the police, no far from it (I have quite a few friends that are policemen), I just dont respect the ones that do things like that.

What is wrong with it: There is NO (continuous) mechanical link between the steering wheel &amp; the wheels. It's the same logic behind not welding steering components. There's too much play (leak) in the orbital valve, IMO, to use on a tow rig pulling a large load. If things start getting squirly, there's no getting out with full-hydro. No matter what you say, full hydro does NOT have the same finite response as mechanical system. I am not saying the hydraulic fluid is compressible - don't go down that road. I am saying the precision of the orbital is not up to the task of controlling the steering adequately for towing purposes - and correpsondingly controlling a 15k#+ death machine (which all vehicles on the road essentially are!).


I have full-hydro on the rear steer of my Jeep - doesn't mean I'd trust it to two 7-12k lbs (it couldn't but that's besides the point)! There's a right way to do things, and a wrong way. Putting full-hydro on a tow rig, a $40k one at that, falls into that category. I think any "customer" would feel the same if they have a clue what they're talking about.


Maybe in AK, where you are (???), you wouldn't need to worry about it, but I live in the MotorCity, and when I tow I go through 10-20 major metropolitan cities - an incident in any of those areas would be worth the extra effort to do it right - again, IMO.


Lastly: CNC plasma? If you're wasting your time doing SAS with that kind of eqpt, then $70/hr isn't (enough) shop rate... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

I wince every time I put my 3300# camper on my Chev and go back into the deep woods to find a place to camp and hunt. Wondering if this is gonna be the time when that CV axle craps out, or the torsion bars fail. Dont really have that problem with my Ram, solid axles rock!!!


When is the last time you heard about or seen a torsion bar break? 1966? on the old cars many years ago, they would break just sitting in the driveway. But I have yet to read,hear, or see one break on any of these new trucks.


And the front axle seems to be as good as any, just as long as you don`t run a "T" post through the boot. I now have nearly 815,000 miles on 4 IFS Chevy 4x4`s ( 273,000+ on 97 Z71, 220,000+ on 94 4x4, 260,000+ 0n 89 4x4, and 59,000 on this 02) and the one that had the "T: post rip the boot open is the only one I have ever had a problem with. Well the factory ones anyway.


I have been headlight deep in snow, Bumper deep in mud, 125 mph on highway, and have even jumped a few feet on pavement. So I think they have proved them selves.


Sure they can break. But so can a solid axle.

I`ve known y2kboti for quite some time now, and I`d take his word for it when it comes to front axle swaps and suspension in general. I know he has done his home work on both.


And like he stated, Why would anyone pay $30,000 to $50,000 for a new or late model truck then have some back yard mechanic install parts from an old worn out truck without completly rebuilding it? I know I wouldn`t!


A couple years back one of the 4 wheel drive mags did a complete front axle swap and showed a cost of $18,000 (They did go over board with dual king shocks and some other stuff that most would not do) I can not remember if that included tires/wheels or not.

Do you think solid axles don't break? Stub shafts, hubs, and axle joints all break and all need to be upgraded for real offroading with tires over 35inch.


Really? I thought that they were bulletproof. Oh wait, maybe when I was 5, R U Serious??? If I had a dollar for every Dana 35 axle shaft I have replaced I would already have a solid axle under my truck! Not to mention Fords 8.8" POS. If you compared the IFS in our trucks to a Solid axle, in an off-road environment, the solid axle will win everytime, hands down. -Jeff





Where are you going with this? My point is all axles and suspension type's break parts if you wheel them.

wsucowboy first and foremost I am not a police officer but I do know about the vehicle code book. As far as hating the "a*al annie cops that pull people over and walk around the rig just looking for something to give a ticket for"...thats up to you but as Joe E stated there is a reason why fully hydro is illegal and when you put others lives in danger the police and your peers have no respect for you.

The vehicle hdmax was referring to was ORU's Suburban and the article can be found here (http://www.off-roadweb.com/features/0302or_straight/).

dont you guys have anything better to do than argue the finite ins and outs of Suspension components? If you guys spent half the time wrenching as you do researching/arguing, then your SFA swap would be nearly complete! I stick by everything I have said and will continue to do so. Once again, It is my opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own opinions, am I right?

Nope you are absolutely right! Everyone is entitled to thier own opinion. I have researched doing a SFA swap and that is the exact reason I haven't done it. Best of luck on the swap and I hope you don't injure anyone with your full hydro setup...it would suck to kill someone or be sued for negligence in a civil court because you were to stubborn to follow the law.

I never once mentioned how I was even going to do the steering. So before you start hoping I dont kill anyone make sure you know who said what.

I never once mentioned how I was even going to do the steering. So before you start hoping I dont kill anyone make sure you know who said what.


No, but you did say "Its funny you spend $2000 on a IFS kit and you can get a Straigh-axle conversion for $750 plus an axle, so you might be into it about $1500 in parts, if you have the time and you know the end of a wrench and welder, why not!!!"


And everyone should know that you won`t be doing it right with a budget of $1500http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

Why are the majority of people that are replying to this forum so arguementative??? Let people think for themselves. You dont always have to be right you know. If I think I can do it for $2k then let me think that, I dont need you to tell me that I cant, and with all of you people telling me I cant it just makes me want to do it more.


So y2kboti and hdmax, go impress your opinions on someone else, because I for one do not want nor care to hear them. -Jeff

LOL I'm not stating my opinion when it comes to how much it costs I'm stating the facts. There is a difference between the two...learn it!

Ok, whatever you say Professor.

With as many Dana 35s as you stated you have had to replace, why mess with it (I know you would put a Dana 60 or something like that under it)? You must wheel pretty hard. Would it fair any better? How many IFSs have you had to replace? Don't worry, it will take care of you. If you under take this project, good luck and let us know how it come out. Show some pics too. Super Diesel Edited by: Super Diesel

yes i would put a dana 60 under it and it would probably hold up better than the IFS (on which i have already replaced the passenger side CV axle)(@30,000 miles), I would love to put a 2 1/2 ton rockwell under it but those are VERY expensive. BTW on my Dodge I havent had to do anything to its Dana 60 but change the fluid (and I have given it quite a few opportunities to break).


anyways the majority of vehicles that i fix are Jeep's and because of this there are not many IFS's in the shop. The ones that I have worked on were largely the 88-98 C/K pickups. I know that the new IFS setups are beefier but I have replaced quite a few ball joints and a couple CV axles.


All in all it is a good setup, I wont argue that it is not, I love the ride on the road and it only got better when i lifted it. If I ever wheeled my Chev as hard as I do my Dodge then I would have to put a SFA under it. I still do wheel the Chev, as it is my primary hunting/towing vehicle but I do know where it can and cant go. As long as you know the limits of your vehicle you will be fine.

I would love to put a 2 1/2 ton rockwell under it but those are VERY expensive.


First off - I agree people tend to come off argumentative. Sorry, it's partially the effect of a forum: people see what you write, take it as gospel, and hammer on it. Ah well, usually nothing's meant by it. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif


Like the comment above for example: Rockwell's are considered the poor man's D60 in the off-road world. The conversion and fitting into a fullsize w/o lifting it to the sky would be expensive, but a steering Rockwell can be had for ~$700, or less... Pretty abundant actually.

So y2kboti and hdmax, go impress your opinions on someone else, because I for one do not want nor care to hear them. -Jeff


I am sooooo sorry I hurt your feelings!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif


I could can no less about what you think of my opinion. As long as you post in an open forum you will get mine or someone Else's that you do not want. And I say too that, Drop dead if you don`t like it, because I don`t give a rats ass

I am sooooo sorry I hurt your feelings!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif


I could can no less about what you think of my opinion. As long as you post in an open forum you will get mine or someone Else's that you do not want. And I say too that, Drop dead if you don`t like it, because I don`t give a rats ass





Wow, that was spoken very eloquently, like a true Professional. I am sure you will do great things in your life. I hope you enjoy it. Have a nice day. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Anyways, Joe E, thank you for the info on the Rockwell, I have never really done alot of research on them, most of what I knew of their price was from hearsay. But I do agree that it would probably cost more $ to make a rockwell fit under a Chev than a D60.Edited by: wsucowboy

Alaska Duramax full hydro is in fact illegal and it can be found in the vehicle code book. If you don't believe anyone here feel free to visit your local law enforcement agency. For those of you naive enough to say BFD how is a cop gonna know the difference between full hydro and hydro assist...THEY DO!

I for one am not about to buy a $40k truck to chop it up. if I want a SFA I'll go out and get myself and old Blazer for Bronco.


I am not going to argue. Just going to call your bluff. PROVE IT.

I will go with the Hydro Comments first- I said it. Not WSU. I stand by it. Just because you don't think it is safe doesn't mean that it is not.


I have broken FAR more TRE's than I have Hydrolic lines.


Orbital valve leaking? You need to get a better product. Precision not up to snuff? You need to seriously get a balanced ram and the proper Orbital valve supplied via the correct pump. Seriously. Precision of a good setup is head and shoulders above the conventional steering.


The long WB and heavy nature of our rigs along with the proper compenents negate most of the negative effects you probably feel with your rear steer.


While it may not be your choice, your arguments have not convinced me one bit (and I am very convincable). Please continue to explain your point of view, I might not be understanding it.


About the cnc table- I didn't say it was mine, just that I would have it cutting the brackets out. Buddy of mine just happened to build one in his garage....


hdmax- And like he stated, Why would anyone pay $30,000 to $50,000 for a new or late model truck then have some back yard mechanic install parts from an old worn out truck without completly rebuilding it? I know I wouldn`t!


Money may be a issue for you, but it is not a issue for everyone. Your money comment serves no purpose other than to propogate your ignorance and jealousy.


Backyard Mechanic...but you just said your a cheap arse? Backyard mechanics can turn out some abosulutly amazing products, you might want to actually see his or my work prior to your open mouth insert foot comments.


y2kboti- I am not naive enough to believe that a cop would not know the difference and I respect the law and it's enforcers. But I must say that I REALLY need to see in print from a good source that says hydro is illegal.


You all see that Avalanche 4Wheeler magazine put together. full hydro rear steer.......Not that I am a big reader or supporter of the rags, just wanted to give all of you sheeple something to look at that is slightly outside the box.


wsucowboy- Don't sweat it man. People are so caught up in thier own unhappy lives that they continually try to "share" with others.


I say go for it. If you think you can hit is for 2k. Do it. Your not far off really. All depends on your scroungy and bargaining ability. Careful though, there are guys that will always bad mouth it unless you paid some big name company for thier "kit".


I am BiZarRo hdmax I think............

hdmax- And like he stated, Why would anyone pay $30,000 to $50,000 for a new or late model truck then have some back yard mechanic install parts from an old worn out truck without completly rebuilding it? I know I wouldn`t!


Money may be a issue for you, but it is not a issue for everyone. Your money comment serves no purpose other than to propogate your ignorance and jealousy.


Backyard Mechanic...but you just said your a cheap arse? Backyard mechanics can turn out some abosulutly amazing products, you might want to actually see his or my work prior to your open mouth insert foot comments.





You must be the one that is ignorant, Because what I stated has nothing to do with ignorance and jealousy!


I know a back yard mechanic can do great work, but not all! and it does not matter what type mechanic you are, it takes money. Unless you happen to be an iron and steel farmer. If you would learn how to read and comprehend then you will notice I did not cut down back yard mechanics, I was referring to using junk.


If anyone, other then those that own junk yards, or steal the parts are doing the complete front axle swap for $1500- $2000 then I believe they are using junk, or cutting corners where safety should be the number one issue and not trying to save a dime.


How do you get out of what I said as being cheap? Learn to comprehend! If one states they would rather spend lots of money to do it right instead of spending a small amount to slap it together. They are not cheap.


Maybe it is time that this thread gets closed, as you seem to insist on calling names because you did not learn to read. Or spell for that matter.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif


Have a nice day!

I have broken FAR more TRE's than I have Hydrolic lines.


Orbital valve leaking? You need to get a better product. Precision not up to snuff? You need to seriously get a balanced ram and the proper Orbital valve supplied via the correct pump. Seriously. Precision of a good setup is head and shoulders above the conventional steering.


The long WB and heavy nature of our rigs along with the proper compenents negate most of the negative effects you probably feel with your rear steer.


Actually, my rear steer is quite fine - it's never used on the road (I do mess with it on empty roads if I'm going less than 30... Otherwise, it's pretty crazy. http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif I was speaking more from experience I've had on other rigs with full-hydro. Generally ok up to 70, but not the same level of feel as linked steering.


I understand the need for balanced, quality components - that was an underlying assumption. As for "more" precise? How could something with hydraulic fluid &amp; "translated" motion be more precise than mechanical links (assuming good components, of course)? That's saying you can control the position better through hydraulics than physical stops/controls. I'm not aware of any system where hydraulics control the position better than mechanical. We use 300T-1000T hydraulic presses at work - they do the work, but require physical/mechanical stops to control location. These are used for anything from metal forming heat shields to making seal beads in 0.2mm thick head gasket layers which require precision of +/- 0.001mm.


As far as the WB, I agree to a point. My point is not debating it on a normal vehicle, where I agree the long WB will reduce the effects, but more for one that is towing where a little feedback/slop can go a long ways towards disaster... I've seen enough debate to know on a street vehicle, it's "ok" (many will say that's not even safe), but if I feel most people would feel pretty strongly against it for a rig which is towing a trailer.


We can beat this to death further, or agree to violently disagree (albeit calmer than some other people in this thread)...

I have learned that doing things the cheap way is not always the best idea, but when you can combine the idea of doing it cheaply and also doing it right then you have the best of both worlds. Honestly if I was going to put a SFA under my truck I would try to the best of my abilities to do it the right way but also do it cheaply. There are some things that you should not skimp on, safety for one, and because of this there are some things that you have to buy, but there are many more that can be made. I have alot of connections and I still truly believe that I could do it for $2k.


To clarify my idea: with $2k I would not be setting the worlds record for fastest SFA swap. I was thinking of this as more of a lengthy project, you know work on it when I have the time kinda thing. I have my Dodge to drive (gets better fuel mileage) and the Chev would be able to catch up on some of its Mileage.


Is it just me or does HDMAX seem very confrontational?

Joe E- That is a darn good reply. Might wanna offer your brain to hdmax...lol.


We can agree to disagree. No problem. The real kicker is that neither of us has driven a 7k ig with a 10k trailer attached to it with full hydro steering to be able to back it up with Real world experience. I wish one of us had.


WSUcowboy- Yep hdmax is kinda confrontational. I am not going to sweat it, don't you either. He doesn't really make much sense so no real reason to include him in the conversation.


So, how long of a spring are you planning on using? I would not use anything under 53 inches or so. Maybe a complete Ford front end transplant is in order?


I know your not into the hydro steering but if you want some help with a conventional Assist setup feel free to shoot me a note. I can help with some good pictures of where to port a conventional Saginaw box for your assist. Recommend some rams and steering arms...

Thats exactly what I had in mind, basic Super Duty front end, somewhere I heard the the pre-Superduty (before 99) F-250's and 350's front end was easier to swap in. Most of them were dana 50's I believe, (not really a big difference between that and a dana 60 i dont think), but it was something about the placement of the spring perches on the axle.


As far as my time frame for taking on such a project, right now I am saving $ for my upcoming wedding and also looking into buying a house w/ in the year. So unfortunetly my expenses on anything other than vehicle maintenance will have to cease for the time beinghttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif. But that doesnt mean I wont be thinking about it!!!!

Joe E- That is a darn good reply. Might wanna offer your brain to hdmax...lol.


We can agree to disagree. No problem. The real kicker is that neither of us has driven a 7k ig with a 10k trailer attached to it with full hydro steering to be able to back it up with Real world experience. I wish one of us had.


I'd still call the cops if I saw you towing with that setup... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif Sorry, couldn't resist.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

I am not going to argue. Just going to call your bluff. PROVE IT.


y2kboti- I am not naive enough to believe that a cop would not know the difference and I respect the law and it's enforcers. But I must say that I REALLY need to see in print from a good source that says hydro is illegal.
Since you guys are foolish enough not to consider others opinions that have researched SFA conversions there is no sense in me reading thru the vehicle code book to find the exact section number. Go ahead and do the full hydro setup and don't come crying about impound fees when your truck gets impounded. It would be a hard lesson learned but your fault nevertheless.

You know whats funny about this thread is you guys pretend like you are pros and know what it takes but if you had any common sense you would know that a Rockwell is not worth it not because of the money but because of the weight.

yes they are heavy, but what does that have to do with it? are you going to race your custom SFA truck? Not likely, the truck already weighs 7600 #'s whats another 300#'s? these are not Sand rigs, where I wheel the weight of the vehicle doesnt really matter, the truck already sinks to the bottom of everything. Using a D60 instead of a rockwell may save some weight but if the truck is already buried in the mud than it doesnt matter what type of axle you have cause you are probably stuck!


And as far as not having any common sense I believe that is totally incorrect. If I had no common sense I would be driving a Ford, not a Chevy....

Since you guys are foolish enough not to consider others opinions....


This reminds me of something I heard growing up, I believe it went like this:


"People in Glass houses shouldnt throw stones"


Am I alone here?

Since you guys are foolish enough not to consider others opinions....





Am I alone here?





Yes, and with the attitude you have shown to others just because they was trying to explain a different view, you can stay alone

I believe my previous post applies to you also Hdmax:


This reminds me of something I heard growing up, I believe it went like this:


"People in Glass houses shouldnt throw stones"

Good luck on your wedding WSU!


Go Cougs!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif


Blake

Good luck on your wedding WSU!


Go Cougs!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif


Blake





Why thankyou sir! I appreciate it!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


How's the weather in wenatchee? I was thinkin about heading out there this weekend for a little camping and fishing.


And your damn right GO COUGS!!!!!Edited by: wsucowboy

And as far as not having any common sense I believe that is totally incorrect. If I had no common sense I would be driving a Ford, not a Chevy....
The way I see it if you had any common sense you would have just bought a Ford that way you didn't have to spend all the money for a SFA conversion. Would save you alot of time and money. Or better yet buy what you did and take all that money from the SFA conversion and go buy yourself and old K5, Jeep or Bronco.

Why go with a D60 over a Rockwell...besides the reason I already mentioned, added ground clearance, more locker/gear options, easier to setup for your conversion, etc. Also I've seem some guys running the Pinion brakes on the Rockwells which is illegal on public streets. On top of all that properly setup D60 should be plenty strong. Edited by: y2kboti

I agree a Dana 60 would be plenty strong, I already recanted my idea for a Rockwell, the aura of having a Rockwell under your rig is the only reason i can now think of for putting one under it. But as I stated earlier when I do it it will be a D50 or D60.


The reason I did not buy a ford is because of the Dmax motor, I have a Cummins and love it, I have driven a Powersuck and hated it, I drove my Dmax for the first time and realized its potential right away. Besides the new 6.0L Ford is a $40,000 paper weight.


I bought a rig with a SFA under it, My dodge, I dont need to put a SFA under my Chevy, I just want to.


I noticed you are trying to sell your Chev. Good luck getting that much $ for a rig w/a Body lift, BTW did you know that you cut the resale value of your vehicle in half as soon as you install a body lift?.


Dont you know that it is not safe to have both a body lift and a suspension lift on the same vehicle? For someone that is so safety conscious i would hope that you did know. I hope I am never on the same road as you because when you get in an accident the possibility of your trucks body seperating from its frame was more than doubled when you put the body lift on. Almost every single suspension lift kit manufacturer will completely void their warranty if they find out that you have a body lift installed along with their kit.


Body lifts are ok on trail rigs. But I would never install a body lift on a vehicle that is driven on the highway.

There's a local company (Quigley) around here. I'm sure you all heard of them. They do brand new conversions on GM vehicles. I believe it adds between $8000 and $10,000 to the price of the new vehicle. They only do specific models.

They specialize in 4x4 vans.

Quigley (http://www.quigley4x4.com/)

So to answer what it costs for a proven professionally done SFA with Antilock and a Dana 60...Edited by: hoot

y2kboti- You know it is funny how you spout how thing are illegal but don't back it up. I also just noticed your living in ComiFornia. Just because your regulated doesn't mean the rest of us are. Texas and Arizona have much more 4x4 friendly laws, for one.


The unsprung weight of the rockwell is going to make very little difference to our rigs. The reason that they are a pain to use is the amount of lift required to clear that super high pinion.


Pinion brakes, while not a very good choice for a street vehicle , fall into the same sort of boat as steering. I have seen no anti-pinion braking laws in my states code book. I would not use them due to the lash of all the gears and bearings and thier tendancy to be rather severe (they lock up pretty easy). HOWEVER, They are a excellent idea as a secondary braking system on heavy laden vehicles IMO. Just have to have a proportioning valve set correctly to only apply at a certian level. Again JMO.


wsucowboy- your not alone, don't sweat the haters...lol. Some peoples brains just don't work outside of the box society has farced us into.


Oh and just cuz...Who do we Hate? Washington State! Go Vandals!

Hey cowboy, weather is going to be nice over the weekend so we're heading for Lake Roosevelt to whack some smallmouth and walleye.


Fish on!


Blakehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

I noticed you are trying to sell your Chev. Good luck getting that much $ for a rig w/a Body lift, BTW did you know that you cut the resale value of your vehicle in half as soon as you install a body lift?.


Dont you know that it is not safe to have both a body lift and a suspension lift on the same vehicle? For someone that is so safety conscious i would hope that you did know. I hope I am never on the same road as you because when you get in an accident the possibility of your trucks body seperating from its frame was more than doubled when you put the body lift on. Almost every single suspension lift kit manufacturer will completely void their warranty if they find out that you have a body lift installed along with their kit.


Body lifts are ok on trail rigs. But I would never install a body lift on a vehicle that is driven on the highway.
Thats kinda funny cause I have a couple people that are interested, nobody has pulled the trigger yet but nobody has balked at the price. I guess there are advantages to living in "ComiFornia" as you put it. Body lifts raise the body, the bulk of the weight is obviously the frame and suspension so the center of gravity isn't altered very much so I'm not to worried.



y2kboti-* You know it is funny how you spout how thing are illegal but don't back it up.* I also just noticed your living in ComiFornia.* Just because your regulated doesn't mean the rest of us are.* Texas and Arizona have much more 4x4 friendly laws, for one.[/P
You know what else is funny is it's regulated by the DOT(Department of Transportation), just in case you needed a little help, so it applies to every state not just the one I live in. There laws are not to limit 4x4s the are safety laws...once again you fail to see the difference.

Thats kinda funny cause I have a couple people that are interested, nobody has pulled the trigger yet but nobody has balked at the price. I guess there are advantages to living in "ComiFornia" as you put it. Body lifts raise the body, the bulk of the weight is obviously the frame and suspension so the center of gravity isn't altered very much so I'm not to worried.




y2kboti- You know it is funny how you spout how thing are illegal but don't back it up. I also just noticed your living in ComiFornia. Just because your regulated doesn't mean the rest of us are. Texas and Arizona have much more 4x4 friendly laws, for one.


[/P
You know what else is funny is it's regulated by the DOT(Department of Transportation), just in case you needed a little help, so it applies to every state not just the one I live in. There laws are not to limit 4x4s the are safety laws...once again you fail to see the difference.


Well I am glad that you are not worried about selling a truck that is not safe. I hope that you would inform who ever does buy your truck that the warranty on the lift kit is void, and they have just purchased an unsafe vehicle.


Not that is matters but It was alaska duramax that said "Comifornia".


Just something to point out here, but The DOT is different in each state, that is why in washington the trucks say "WSDOT" on the door, as in Washington State Dept. Of Transportation. If this was a federal agency then I believe it would say something like "USDOT". Or am I way off base here?Edited by: wsucowboy

Lucky for me CST does not void the lift warranty when a body lift is added. Body lifts are not illegal and 3" clearance between the frame and body falls wells within the California Vehicle Code book laws so everything here is kosher.

Department of Trasportation exsists at both a state and Federal level however the state follows the guidlines set at the Federal level. In order for something to be DOT approved the must do so at the Federal level not thru the individual states.

http://www.dot.govEdited by: y2kboti

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/standards/FMVSS-Regs/pages/Part571.htm


Take a look through all of that....Guess what you will find. NOT A SINGLE LAW or regulation dealing with hydrolic steering.


Application issue's aside, I am having a hard time following your mumbo jumbo eguarding the legality of the issue y2kboti. Unless you can provide some kind of direct link to some statute or law written by a government agency, you just need to keep quiet. You talk but your words mean nothing.


Please provide a proper argument or document to your claims. SERIOUSLY this will help not only you and me but anyone else reading this thread.

AlaskaDuramax, I believe you may be correct on the legality for our trucks. I'm not certain about heavier trucks (including our trucks w/ a load/trailer) - there are much tighter restrictions for those guys for safety reasons.


I spend a lot of time on Pirate4x4, and here's a good read (not for the soft-spoken): http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215086


There's probably hundreds more similar threads on hydro steering on that forum, where there's a pro/con group of people on this topic as it relates to a 4x4 rig on the road. I couldn't find any relevant to a tow rig though, but I feel certain that most people who are advocates of full-hydro on a trail rig would be much more conservative as it pertains to a tow rig. Again, that's really where I'm drawing a distinction - I don't care if someone uses it on a normal vehicle, but if they run full-hydro pulling a trailer, I think that's dangerous to others.Edited by: Joe E

Thanks for the link. I had read that when it came around the first time. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


I have searched for nearly half a day. Nothing. Calls to the NHTSA and USDOT netted me ZERO gain other than the statement that there is no governing regulation for steering compenents at this time from NHTSA.


y2kboti's claims are failing miserably in my research.


As for the application. I have not seen or experienced anything to make me think that it is wrong.


So How does the 4 wheel steer option in our trucks work? Drive By Wire? Doesn't Ford Drive by wire now? hmmmm

Well, from the presentation I had by Delphi on the rear steer on the light duties, the failsafe is spring controlled; meaning there's a big freakin spring which returns the steering to center in case of failure. I'm not sure if that's the case still, but that's what they told me back in 2001...

Joe E, The quadrasteer still has the retern to center spring.


As far as the hydo steer, check with the rmv of your state or ask a local inspection station to read there book. There is tons of info in there.

I will not post the vehicle code sections. Do I know them off the top of my head? No. Do they exsist? Yes. Why won't I post them? Simple, throughout this thread you guys have refused to take my advice pertaining to a very important issue SAFETY. If you choose not to, as you clearly have, then by all means do whatever you plan to. If/when it ever fails/breaks and you're sued, lose everything you owned because you refused to taken my advice then you deserve what you get! I know what the laws are I have already told you...being that I work in the Public Safety sector I have no reason to make this up? Since you don't believe me it's on your shoulders to do the research, not mine just like the liability is.

I'm not going to drag this thread thru the mud anymore so do what you will and best of luck in your endeavor.

y2kboti- Your sad and a liar. I have proven,to my satisfaction, that the laws are just not where you claim they are. If I have missed something simply point it out. If I am wrong, I will be the first to admit it.


As for us not taking your so called "safety" advice, BULL. Your comments about safety have sparked me to research this subject for the better part of 2 days. Your complete lack of responsibility as a self proclaimed "Public Safety" officer shows that you are irresponible and most likely, a liar. With your reported expertise in this area you should EASILY be able to provide documentation to your claims.


Something way more substantial than just www.dot.gov (http://www.dot.gov) As a public servant, is it not your responsibility to provide information and guidance in your area of responsibility? Well Sir, we are the public, we are looking for guidance. You claim to have the information that we seek, but are refusing to give it out. What is up with that?


No I do not belive what is typed on a bulliten board by someone who has not provided the source documentation to back up thier hot air. I am sorry that it hurts your napoleonic complex. But without some sort of FACT to back up your ramblings, they are just ramblings.


I tried to back up my words by posting a more specific type link. The fact that there is, to my knowledge, no regulation on the subject leaves me in the posistion to be the one to call for proof. Not provide the proof of it's non existance (which I tried to do anyway).


So Step Up or Shut Up.


Joey D- I called my DMV and State Troopers. Nothing. I will contact an inspection station today, thanks for the guidance.


ALL- the Quadrasteer is drive by wire. No mechanical linkage. And I am now almost certian that drive by wire is legal. If anyone has any info, post it up! Enquiring minds wanna know!

ALL- the Quadrasteer is drive by wire. No mechanical linkage. And I am now almost certian that drive by wire is legal. If anyone has any info, post it up! Enquiring minds wanna know!


Yes, *the rear* is drive by wire, but with a failsafe for failure of the electronics... The failsafe puts it back to a neutral position - there is no such (safe) position for front steering failure of the "drive by wire". This may have been done either for regulated reasons, or liability reasons - either is legitimate (!).

So when the electronics wig out and push the tire all the way to the right a spring is going to stop it?


I do agree that they have attempted a failsafe. And that is good. But what are the laws concerning this?

...Dont you know that it is not safe to have both a body lift and a suspension lift on the same vehicle? ...I hope I am never on the same road as you because when you get in an accident the possibility of your trucks body seperating from its frame was more than doubled when you put the body lift on. ....Body lifts are ok on trail rigs. But I would never install a body lift on a vehicle that is driven on the highway.


I just read this thread for the first time today. I wish I had be in from the start, but it's kinda nice getting it all at once. I have been with you and AK all the way until you posted this. You are only half correct here. It all depends on how the body lift is done. I once had a Toy pickup with a 4 inch body lift. There were no safety issues at all. It just has to be done properly and oh BTW, none of the kits that I am aware of do it properly!!


Too bad youse guys can't spend some time in Iceland. This thread reminded me of one of the qualities of the Icelanders I admired most (spent 3 years there in the mid 90s). In the good old USA, home of backyard engineering, someone says I'd like to do this or that and instantly folks start telling him why it can't be done. I have seen this all over the states and used to be guilty of the same thing. In Iceland they just say "Why not" then everyone starts with the finished product in mind and and work backward through the engineering. They have some of the most awesome off-road vehicles in the world for winter trips into the interior and glacier trips. They have put solid axles under just about any vehicle you can imagine. If you can dream it they'll do their damnedest to make it happen. A solid axle with hydraulic steering is not hard, it's been done many times before, and safely!


Edited by: Oldman

Oldman- Your correct. This is the way of thinking I like. To bad most people are Half Empty.

thanks oldman, You are right on the body lifts, I was referring to the type of body lifts you can buy from a shop (Perf. Acc. and others like it) I do agree that it can be done a right way and a wrong way, but there will never be one on my truck, I cant trust a body puck to hold the weight of the body and a 3300# camper. JMHO! -Jeff

Alaska Duramax are insults and name calling the best you can do? I had little respect for you after the first couple threads but have no respect for you now! Your true colors have shown themselves and it doesn't surprise me one bit. I am not a public safety officer as you put it but rather work in the public safety sector, my field of expertise is not enforcing the law but I do know what the vehicle code book says and what is/is not DOT approved. You say you have satisfied yourself in proving me wrong...LOL...why because you have not found the right section code. The "specific link" you posted said absolutely nothing!

Last thing I will post in this thread is the following:

In order for you to modify a vehicle and do so in a manner that does not break the law, the items must but DOT approved. Full hydraulic steering and the brakes I referenced on Rockwell axles are ILLEGAL. For a specific reason as to why full hydro is illegal, I thought this would be common sense for you but obviously not, if your engine dies with a full hydro system you will have NO control as there is no mechanical backup. Ram assist is legal, it is what it says, there is ram and a mechanical likeage in case the ram goes down.

Good day.

if your engine dies with a full hydro system you will have NO control


Actually, y2kboti, I used to think that too, but with a good orbital valve, you will actually have control of the steering. Not great, but you will...

y2kboti- For your education. If you lose engine power to a hydro equipped vehicle that has the proper Orbital valve you will retain 100% steering. What you lose is the assist of the pump. I have exp with just such a system and it still turns a 45" Ag Tire (terra) easier than a conventional link system with the power steering assist inop. Esperience has proven that it also handles better at 50-60 mph than any lift/steering combination previously installed on that vehicle.


COmponent failure is not the issue here. That is a entirely new conversation. I am looking for the LEGALITY of such a system. Bad steering is bad steering, link or no link.


You say I have called you names? I called you a LIAR. That sir, is a FACT. If you know what Section I need to be looking in Why don't you post it? If you are correct I will publicly appologize for calling you a liar and admit that you have proven yourself to me more than a windbag full of hot air and bulldung.


It sucks to be called out, I know, I have been called out myself, LEARN from it. Don't get so stubborn that you actually become MORE ignorant of the situation than when you started.

...I cant trust a body puck to hold the weight of the body and a 3300# camper. JMHO! -Jeff


I hate to hi-jack this thread but I'm going to anyway. They can be strong enough to handle the camper. It is a body lift, but in a much different way than the kits. I have seen the Icelanders do this, I did it on my Toy, and I have seen heavy loads like your camper handled with no problems. Schedule 40 pipe is used for the pucks. Get pipe of the proper diameter and cut it 1/2 inch shorter than the desired lift. Then drill a hole in 1/4 plate and weld on the nuts. Make these plates for both ends of each piece of pipe. Weld the plate to the pipe with the nuts on the inside. Then, use short bolts on each end. This works MUCH better than the puck with a 3/4 inch hole and one long 1/2 inch bolt! These mounts do NOT shift around like the ones in the kits. For a Short lift, 2 inch or less, you really need do nothing else. If you go over 2 inches you don't need as many of the lift blocks. Instead, you move some of the original mounts up and use the stock pucks. For a 3 inch lift move (or fabricate new) front mounts. For 4 inches do this to both front and rear. With a pick up this would be front and rear of both the cab and the bed. Anything over 4 inches and forget about lift blocks at all and move all the mounts up. When I say move the stock mounts up I mean cut them off of the frame, move them up the required amount and reweld. For some vehicle you have no choice but to fabricate new mounts. Its' a lot of work but you end up with a very safe lift. It's great when you need clearance for tires but do not need the added articulation a suspension lift would give. And now back to your regular programming...


Y2KBOTI If you do know of a reference about the legality issues it sure would be nice if you would take the time to find it and post it for us. It would clear up the matter for those of us who don't know how to find the info and would let us all get back to being fellow D-Max fanatics and get off of the war path.


Thanks,


jc

Oldman that sounds reasonable.


Where is y2kboti and his information? hmmmmm? still nothing in my searches.