I am trying to find a local dealer that would have Total Power fuel additive. I don't want to order a large quanitity without giving it a try first. I have checked all the local chain type parts houses with no luck. They all have Power Service brand, or something like that. Anyone have any suggestions http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Question.gif

Try their website for contact info, and give them a call. I recall someone else doing that and having them be very helpful in locating a local retailer.


John

http://www.fppf.com

I called FPPF, and the gave me a number of dealers in my area. Be sure to call the dealer before hand, as not all FPPF dealers carry Total Power. I paid $6.60 per qt locally for Total Power.

Thanks guys. I followed your advice, and FPPF gave me two dealers in my area. I am headed to pick some up http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif . However, Roegs, the best I could do was $8.75 per quart http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif. Oh well, still not bad. Later !

Does anyone in the DFW sell this stuff. FPPF gave me six location in the DFW area but all six stopped selliung it.

Avlube sells Primrose 405 which is high quality additive and is the water emulsifying type.

I bought 12 bottles from George Morrison a couple of weeks ago. Highly concentrated and available in a winter blend also (409)

www.avlube.com (http://www.avlube.com)Edited by: hoot

Kennedy sells it on his site.

I saw so fppf at a truck stop. The label indicated it contained, IIRC, glycol ethelene. I assume this is alcohol. If so that makes this additive an emulsifyer. I read on a thread somewhere that GMC recommended demulsifiers, ie Stanadyne, Primrose, . . .


Am I correct?


Thanks,

Believe Primrose and FPPF work much the same way .... different from Stanadyne .... got my FPPF from Kennedy


Jim

I sure hope Promise is an emulsifier, that's why I bought it.

John, It sure is.

I saw so fppf at a truck stop. The label indicated it contained, IIRC, glycol ethelene. I assume this is alcohol. If so that makes this additive an emulsifyer. I read on a thread somewhere that GMC recommended demulsifiers, ie Stanadyne, Primrose, . . .


Am I correct?


Thanks,

Correct. Check out the GM bulletin on fuel additives in the TSB section of the board. Actually, alcohol is specifically to be avoided because of it's corrosive nature. Being an emulsifier is also not recommended by GM - it will allow water to pass through the fuel filter and either slowly wear (it's abrasive at 24,000 psi) or destroy the injectors (when water changes state to steam it will blow tips off injectors with additional potential damage to cylinder and valves, etc).

It's amazing what a bunch of guys on the internet can talk themselves into.


jeff

Uh, forgive me for forgetting organic chemistry, but I'm inclined to say that ethylene glycol (HOCH2CH2OH) isn't alcohol (CH3CH2OH, ethanol).


Now they may have similar effects in a diesel/water solution, but I think we'd be technically amiss by equating the two.


Any real chemists out there? Thanks, Mat

Uh, forgive me for forgetting organic chemistry, but I'm inclined to say that ethylene glycol (HOCH2CH2OH) isn't alcohol (CH3CH2OH, ethanol).


Now they may have similar effects in a diesel/water solution, but I think we'd be technically amiss by equating the two.


Any real chemists out there? Thanks, Mat








Holly Cow!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Shocked.gif


It sure looks like you are a real chemists or just way to much time on a Saturday night with your Periodic Table...I just had a college flashback. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif


All I know is glycol melts the snow and ice off the wings of airplanes.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif


Great info...for real!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifEdited by: NoWake200

Both Primrose and FPPF emulsify.





I run the FPPF, always have, and will continue to do so. I've seen the sample vials (have the kit) with emulsified water in fuel at several years old along with untreated fuel turning brown in the same type of vial. I've also seen the demo where the competitive product makes jelly fish, fisheggs, or chickenbroth depending on the makeup...

Ethylene glycol is anti-freeze. You know, the green stuff.

When I said he was "correct" above - I was referring to the statement that GM specifically states to avoid using an emulsifier.

Hold on - doesn't anti-freeze stick rings and gum up an engine... (blow a head gasket and let it go for a while and see what happens...)



jeff

Both Primrose and FPPF emulsify.





I run the FPPF, always have, and will continue to do so. I've seen the sample vials (have the kit) with emulsified water in fuel at several years old along with untreated fuel turning brown in the same type of vial. I've also seen the demo where the competitive product makes jelly fish, fisheggs, or chickenbroth depending on the makeup...








John,


I have been too the fppf website and seen the demonstration,


http://www.fppf.com/pDemoWtrDsprtnHB.html


It's easy to look at this demo and say to yourself "It's clear now, that's great because the water has "disappeared" and now it will no longer be a problem" But the water is still there and the problem is that water in emulsion will wear and damage the injectors just as well as free water in a 24,000 psi fuel injection system.


From a discussion I had with a Shell engineer concerning their rotella DFA additive (which disperses minute amounts of water, but demulsifies larger amounts)...


"Free water, or water/fuel emulsion delivered to an injector, can be a disaster. Water is instantly turned to steam with sufficient force to destroy injector tips. Not only is the injector ruined, but metal debris enters the combustion chamber where it can damage pistons and liners, as well as turbocharger fins."


On the issue of corrosion and not wanting to have free water settling, etc...


"ROTELLA DFA contains corrosion inhibitors that reduce corrosion on steel surfaces, thus protecting tank, lines, and other steel surfaces when water is present."


Stanadyne also incorporates a corrosion inhibitor.


Both you and George at avlube have encouraged the use of an emulsifying additive (both here and on that "other diesel site" too). Both of you market, sell and profit from the sale of these products. Both of you sell them and recommend them without warning user's of the risk they are taking on.


Both you and George are highly respected on this board and now those who respect your opinion now recommend it to everyone else without qualification.


GM states that one shouldn't use an emulsifying additive. Maybe if they would have went into more detail as to why with graphic photos of mangled injectors, then maybe things would be different here. Instead, it seems to always turn into a "bud versus coors argument".


So fppf has always worked great for you - that's great. Unfortunately, you are "statistically insignificant" and so am I. Out of the tens of thousands of trucks out there, will using an emulsifying additive contribute to the premature wear and failure of one injector? Five? a hundred? How much water are you going to get in your fuel one day?


Neither you nor I have the qualifications or statistical data to definitively answer, but the one thing I hope we can both agree on is that it is greater than zero. You know that someone is going to pull up to a station and get the bottom of the tank somewhere in the u.s. this year; So maybe that poor soul bought fppf from you and is now out of warranty; Maybe if he wouldn't have been using an emulsifier his "water in fuel" light would have come on before that water reached his injectors and blew them apart. Maybe.


jeff





Edited by: dmax lover

Excellent post

Jeff





The flaw in your agrument is George's years of real life experience. True he sells the Primrose. True he profits from it. Selling Primrose to you or me to him is "statistically insignificant". He makes his money with fleet work. Do you think his fleet customers are going to keep using him if he is telling and selling them something that doesn't work?? He could just as easily be making his money selling Standyne or any other product that he said worked. He says his tests and experience say the Primrose and emulsifying are the way to go. I'm far more likely to believe him than GM who will bail on a customer the minute they find water in the fuel.





I guess it comes down to spend your money with who you trust the most. My money is on George and John.

Great post and information!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif


The sad part, we should not have to put this much of our energy into into worrying about our fuel system. Diesel fuel holds water if it is at the top or bottom of the tank....our very own tank on the frame has water, I can guaranty it! Water is very much a part of diesel fuel! Now salt in the wound...I have yet to find the products listed that are safe for our fuel system in any parts store or truck stop. Then GM is telling us NOT to us fuel additives...what happens when it gels...is GM going to pay for the tow, thaw, and what ever else needs to be done to get the engine running? I do not think so...Ford did not when it happened to me.


We should not have to worry about adding extra filters to our system or ONLY using XYZ brand fuel additive....WE SHOULD NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THIS....BOTTOM LINE.


Sorry I am done.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


One more thing...the reason I went to the Dmax is because the '03 6.0L Powerstroke. I guess not doing my resurch come to find out the Dmax is not to far off, very sad indeed. Ford fixed the problem for the '04s.

I'm far more likely to believe him than GM who will bail on a customer the minute they find water in the fuel.





I guess it comes down to spend your money with who you trust the most.


My money is on George and John.


Why would GM bail on the customer if they find water in the fuel...it is not like we are putting it in the tanks ourselves. I have heard GM will test the fuel for additives and will void your warranty if any is present in the tank.


You spent your money on GM, so you trust them? The sentence above your are saying GM will bail if water is found...that does not sound like trust to me.


We should not have to worry about this as the consumer!!!!

There ae only 2 reasons why the owners manual tells us not to worry about additives or water. One could be, we really do not need these items, period. Two, they have specifically calculated an engine with inaduqute filtering/additives will blow at 101k+. I know for a fact they would absolutely under no circumsatances print anything that would cause our motors to blow before 100K. That would be bad for any buisness even, GM.

Why would GM bail on the customer if they find water in the fuel...it is not like we are putting it in the tanks ourselves. I have heard GM will test the fuel for additives and will void your warranty if any is present in the tank.











Go back and read some of the posts from George about dealers with trucks in the lot that need thousands of dollars of repairs. Why??? Water in the fuel. Why aren't they being repaired?? GM voided the warranty.

Let's look at this from a different perspective:





ALL diesel fuel contains some water. That's a simple fact. If demulsifying agents worked so well, then where would we find water? In the separator. It's not there because the separator is only really good for catching large pockets of water.





By emulsifying, we are ensuring that when the engine is shut down this water has little chance of settling out and doing damage.


IMHO, demulsifiers are best suited for large storage tanks with the ability to drain off "bottom water" and remove it entirely. To do this effectively, the tank must remain stationary.





Settling water in an active fuel system does us no real benefit, as we need to shake up the tank to draw out the water, so it can move on to the next settliing point. Makes no sense to me...

If my truck has water in the fuel that damages my engine. Does that not point to the fact that there stock filtration is inadequte? I would take that to court and win any day. I am not scared.

If my truck has water in the fuel that damages my engine. Does that not point to the fact that there stock filtration is inadequte? I would take that to court and win any day. I am not scared.








YEA!! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif Let me know when you win!

Believe me, the "contaminated fuel" card has been played by MANY a dealer when warranty service is requested.


GM is even SO ignorant as to deny DS pump warranty if metal shavings are found in the tank. Metal shavings typically GENERATED by the early DS pump....


GM technicians have attempted warranty denial on Dmax injectors due to crud in the line cups. Crud generated when the line nut was removed...





Additive is added by MOST fuel stops in some way shape or form, in fact, premium diesel is often same as std only with an additive.





As an aside, my local fuel vendor uses Primrose. NOT by my influence I'll add...

Well it never hurts to be an educated consumer. You just have to politly let the dealer know you are not screwing around. Write the dealer a leagal letter as soon as there are signs of trouble. It will work. As far as additives go does anyone have any experiance with Power Service products. They make 2 products,Diesel Kleen and Diesel fuel supplement + cetane boost. This brand is one of the only brands you can find on the shelves in the Colorado/Wyoming area.

Go back and read some of the posts from George about dealers with trucks in the lot that need thousands of dollars of repairs. Why??? Water in the fuel. Why aren't they being repaired?? GM voided the warranty.





I am not saying they did not or would not void a warranty. But first...how much water in a tank (I am guessing a brand new truck when you say on a lot) would cause $1,000 of dollors in repairs? If it was a act of nature then insurance should take care of the repair.


My point was more directed to the trust issue which goes 'hand to hand' with the warranty. Edited by: NoWake200

Here is the result of the 2nd email I sent to them asking for the answewr from them about what kind of product they sold. Seems they seel small bottles since they can fit the stuff in the bottle that needs to be there!! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif





Mr. Alster,

It is neither. There is not enough room in the container to put an effective
water dispersant. If you have a water or water related problem you should
use the Diesel 911 to get the water under control and then continue to use
the Diesel Kleen.

Emulsifiers are not recommended and demulsifers will not work in a general
use additive. To solubilize water you have to use a large amount of an
additive to effectively take care of the water problem. Multi purpose
additives cannot contain a strong lubricity, detergent, cetane boost,
corrosion and stability package and sill have room to carry the necessary
chemical to control water.

I gave all the details so that you and other consumers will realize that
there are a lot of additives making strong claims about how their additive
does everything and take care of water too. Once you have the details, you
can make a better choice, get more for your money and not be mislead by
inflated claims.

Sincerely,

Brian Wilson
Technical Support
Power Service Products, Inc.

FirstDiesel,


I just posted asking about this exact product line. I read your post and am still not sure what to think. Did the first email you sent get a response? Could you post it? I might be missing something in the translation?

If my truck has water in the fuel that damages my engine. Does that not point to the fact that there stock filtration is inadequte? I would take that to court and win any day. I am not scared.





The truck has a warranty against manufacturing defects, etc. Water in the fuel isn't a manufacturers defect. It is defective fuel and the fuel vendor is probably the one liable for damage (unless you wash your truck with the fuel cap removed).


I have been exclusively buying my fuel from one vendor (shell) and from two different stations in my area. If things go boom due to bad fuel and GM doesn't cover it under warranty (because it's not their fault), I go after shell and/or the local station. I keep all reciepts and also always use visa so my bank will have records 3 months back...


Someone here (or maybe on that other site) posted that they got a bad load of fuel from a station - after a tow to the dealer and a diagnosis of the issue, the station picked up the tab...


jeff

Buying your fuel from one dealer is a great idea. It sounds like a good way to cyb. I drive to much to many differnt locations to buy my fuel from one petro company. My owners manual states that I have a fuel filter that will tell me if there is a water issue. I am then to drain the petcok valve. If this is not sufficient then is it not there fault? They understand the quality of the fuel being used. If they do not like the fuel then they should operate there own service stations. It is a game of cat and mouse. Like I said before, I have a good laywer,I am not scared.

I am not saying they did not or would not void a warranty. But first...how much water in a tank (I am guessing a brand new truck when you say on a lot) would cause $1,000 of dollors in repairs? If it was a act of nature then insurance should take care of the repair.


My point was more directed to the trust issue which goes 'hand to hand' with the warranty.








No I did not mean new truck. What I meant was trucks sitting on the dealers lot because they didn't warranty the repair and the owner doesn't have the money.

FirstDiesel,


I just posted asking about this exact product line. I read your post and am still not sure what to think. Did the first email you sent get a response? Could you post it? I might be missing something in the translation?








[b]Hello Larry,

GM just recently issued a Technical Bulletin warning not to use any product
with alcohols or emulsifiers. Emulsifiers are chemicals that pull water up
into the fuel suspending the water as droplets in the fuel. Alcohols can
adversely affect lubricity and the cheaper alcohols can damage pumps and
injectors. In the winter months when the temperature drops below freezing,
these water droplets can freeze on the filter face of the water separator
causing the flow of fuel to stop, even though the fuel is still liquid. It
does not take much water to cause Fuel Filter Icing problems. Ford has also
come out with a Technical Bulletin not to use any alcohols but I have not
seen any reports by Ford on emulsifiers.


Demulsifiers will cause excess water to fall out of the fuel. This water
will fall to the bottom of the fuel tank or fuel system and can cause
corrosion, rust, reduced lubricity and in the winter months it can strip
antigels out of your fuel. Also, there are about a dozen demulsifiers or
de-hazers on the market. None of them will work on all fuels. They are fuel
specific and when an additive company says they use demulsifiers in their
additives it is for advertisement purposes only. If you talk to any Chemist
that knows anything about demulsifiers they will tell you the same thing.

Our Diesel Fuel Supplement contains a deicer that is intended to keep the
water in the fuel from falling out. Warm fuel will carry more water than
cold fuel. When it gets cold some water can fall out of the fuel, or the
water separator can squeeze out this water which can freeze on the filter
face and cause the fuel to stop flowing through the filter even though the
fuel is still liquid. This is call Fuel Filter Icing and is often mistaken
for fuel gelling. The deicer can also help to pick up small amounts of water
in the fuel system. If too much water is in the fuel tank it can overpower
the deicer in the Diesel Fuel Supplement.


Our Diesel Kleen is a summer additive and it is intended to give you the
very best injector cleaner, cetane boost, lubricity, fuel stability package
and corrosion protection. It will not do much for water because there is not
enough room for a water dispersant.

There is a lot of misinformation about additives and water dispersants. When
you use an additive like our Diesel Fuel Supplement or Diesel Kleen these
are mixtures of additives in a package. These various chemicals have to be
balanced so they will not separate when you mix them together. It doesn't
matter if you use our additives or one of our competitors, a water
dispersant takes a lot of room in the additive package. If you add a strong
detergent, strong cetane, excellent lubricity, corrosion, top of the line
antigel, and stability to the additive package there is not much room left
for a water dispersant. A good multiple benefit package will always have a
weak water dispersant package. It is a matter of chemistry. The only way to
get a strong water dispersant is to get an additive whose top attribute is
to control water.

If you think you have a water or water related problem then you need to use
our Diesel 911 to take care of the water. Diesel 911 is completely
compatible with Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement and they can be used
together in the fuel. If you live in areas where the temperatures can be
severe in the winter months then you need to use our Diesel Fuel Supplement.
Use the Diesel Kleen in the non-winter months. Also, just before winter sets
in I would use the Diesel 911 to help take out the water/condensation in

Buying your fuel from one dealer is a great idea. It sounds like a good way to cyb. I drive to much to many differnt locations to buy my fuel from one petro company. My owners manual states that I have a fuel filter that will tell me if there is a water issue. I am then to drain the petcok valve. If this is not sufficient then is it not there fault? They understand the quality of the fuel being used. If they do not like the fuel then they should operate there own service stations. It is a game of cat and mouse. Like I said before, I have a good laywer,I am not scared.





I wish you luck!

All,

Maybe a F*@d might have been a better choice. My paranoia continues to increase as the threads continue.

Mark

FirstDiesel,


Early in this thread you posted a letter that was written to you from Power Service Products. I believe it was a response from PSP to your question of whether they were an emulsifier or demulsifier. I beileve there answer was neither. I do have a bottle of PSP Diesel Fuel Supplement + cetane boost, in front of me right now. It states that it prevents gelling,cleans injectors,boost cetane and lubricates pumps and injectors,year-around formula. On the back of the bottle it states that it disperses water in diesel fuel. The bottle contains no ingredients and does not state if there is any alchohol. It also does not state whether it is an emulsifior or demulsifor. I think I will follow GM reccomondations and go with either Racor or Stayadyne.

First Diesel,


I must be a slow typer. Thanks for the update.

Like I said before, pay your money and take your choice.





My choice is to trust George and John. Yours is to trust GM.

After reading the complete letter from PSP it makes me wonder if a drain on the very lowest point of my fuel tank would not be the very best solution to all of these issuse. It would allow you to drain off the water and the sediment. Somebody speak up or I just might do this soon.

Only problem is that this won't work real well for a truck unless it has been stationary for quite awhile.

My personal opinion is that the only place that I will pour Power Service is in my drain oil container. If a station has a PS banner on their premium pump, I will pass...

I've used FPPF up until about 6 months ago and since have switched to Primrose 405. Both are emulsifying additives.

2001 Dmax with 65,000 miles..... just had balance rates checked. All injectors are original and all are well within spec.

I'm also running a Racor 2m post OEM fuel filter. Racor claims to have a water blocking filter media called "Aquablok". Don't know for sure if the things I've done have helped but I do not believe they hurt. I do feel more confident doing what I'm doing than doing nothing at all. That's what GM recommends.


Edited by: hoot

Your tank already has un-usable fuel in just for the prupose of collecting water and contaminants. The problem with diesel is that it holds water unlike gasoline that allows water to settle quickly to the bottom of the tank. If diesel did not hold water we would not have a problem with fuel gel. Diesel also has another problem that aids in gelling and that would be bacteria(microorganisms) swimming around our tanks. Like I have said before diesel is a VERY dirty fuel no matter what you do. Additives help....filters helps....but adding a drain in the tank will not help. When I flew aircraft that used 100LL fuel(gasoline) we would sump our tanks EVERYTIME before we would take off. With the aircraft using JET-A(diesel) we would never touch it. Sumping diesel would prove nothing. Jets also have fuel heaters and some of the smaller ones also require a fuel additve themselves. This is some food for thought.....dirty fuel(JET-A much more dirty of fuel) is not a problem for the injectors in a jet engine...why is it such a problem in our diesel trucks. I do not know....I say it again WE SHOULD NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THIS ISSUE...BUT WE DO WORRY!


I have been obsessing also...I have a Nicktain filter coming my way anyday now. But I tell you I am not thinking of installing it....if my injectors crap out they will be under warranty...let GM deal with it. After 100,000 then that is a different story. Why should I take a chance for GM the company we all TRUST to void my warranty?!?


These are just my thoughts, thake it for its worth.


Happy Trucking...or should I say happy obsessing


Edited by: NoWake200

Your tank already has un-useable fuel in just for the prupose of collecting water and contaminants.





Actually, take a closer look. The pickup is very close to the floor, and will not likely discern between fuel and water.





Free water as mentioned above can sustain bacterial growth. Emulsified water does not...

But there is a area of un-usable fuel...and does the pickup have a stand pipe setup?

Jeff





The flaw in your agrument is George's years of real life experience. True he sells the Primrose. True he profits from it. Selling Primrose to you or me to him is "statistically insignificant"...




There are a couple of flaws in your counter-argument.

1.) Noone has more than a few years experience with this ultra high pressure fuel injection system. So years of experience with something else is irrelevant.

2.) Low sulfur diesel fuel has been mandated by the federal government. The lubricity of this fuel is greatly decreased refining the fuel to this new specification. Again, noone has decades of experience with this running in the injection system mentioned in #1...

To me, as an engineer, the variables have changed and what worked for George, or anyone else, in the past is irrelevant.

My money is on George and John.

My money isn't on anybody yet. There is no long term data to support anything. In cancer treatment, there has to be five years of data before they say anything worked.

Noone has experience with these trucks running for 5 years and 500,000 miles yet. Everyone hopes they found the "silver bullet" with extra filtration. My guess is that a fuel additive to increase lubricity is also needed (particularly if you "juice") - I'll tell ya in five years if my extra filter (with a water trap!) and adding stanadyne lubricity formula + stanadyne performance formula worked for me; Of course, it won't mean anything since I am also "statistically insignificant"...


jeff



Edited by: dmax lover

To any one reading,


Only alcohol free water demulsifiers should be used in General Motors diesel engines. Both *Racor(R) and *Stanadyne(R) diesel fuel additives are alcohol free and utilize water demulsifiers to cope with water in the fuel. Other brands may be available in different areas; be sure that they clearly state that they are alcohol free demulsifiers before use. FROM GM!


It is abvious that Gm DOES NOT RECCOMEND EMULSIFIERS! The reason they do not reccomend these is because emulsifiers allow water to pass straight through you stock filter at 23kPSI water turns to steam. It can severly damage your injection system. It has been noted to blow the nozzles of injectors and crack injector bodys. I think it would be in every body best interest to keep all water from passing through your filters.
As far as the products from PSP are concerned. I find it refreshing that they sell products that only lubricate and raise cetane numbers. We can all benifit from extra lubricity with todays low sulfur fuels. It is the old fuel that used to make these diesels run so many miles. PSP offers a product that is specifically made for emergency water situations. They do reccomend that you only run enough to get you out of a jam and then go back to a straight lubricator.


One final note. I have no brand loyalty and no finacial interest. The last thing I want to do is have my warranty void by some snot nose punk because I did not follow the written instructions in my owners manual. If you read the manual it clearly states that you will void your warranty. Even my good lawyer could not hold a candle to that.


You make your own choices. By the way changing the duty cycle of an injector will increase failure rate. They build more heat when you leave them on longer. My Dmax runs perfect and untill it does otherwise I have nothing bad to say about it. Now I have to go chase down a permanent fix for my steering shaft clunk. Go Figure!

Is GMs stand on this issue in the owners manual??? I seem to remember it being released via some bulletin or something. I would look it up but my truck is at the dealer http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif. No truck only 1 day+ ..... no need for meds yet but will monitor.....


Back to my question, if it is not in the manual then how does GM get this info in front of every DMAX owner? Again, I don't presently have mine for a reference so if it is in there I'm the bonehead and carry on...http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


MikeEdited by: HisDMAX

"To me, as an engineer, the variables have changed and what worked for George, or anyone else, in the past is irrelevant."

Wrong....

Georgecls has been involved in the very latest CAT investigations and determinations as to how to add life to CATS prematurely failing high pressure injection systems.

Thier studies lead to CAT's development of their new 2 micron filtration system.

George is involved in the leading edge of fuel conditioning.

George... correct me if I mistated anything. Edited by: hoot

Pour a half cup of water in your demulsifier treated tank of fuel, and tell me how much ends up in the separator. It won't be much if any at all, and it WON'T be hiding at the bottom of the tank...

I've said this before, and it bears repeating:


1.) FREE WATER is ABSOLUTELY destructive to our injection systems - proven fact!


2.) Our OEM filtration system is marginal - proven fact!


3.) If our OEM filter is marginal - it stands to reason that it is not an effective WATER SEPARATOR!


4.) Use of a DEMULSIFYING additive will produce FREE WATER!

That is correct....

The large blobs of water will typically remain in the water traps of our filters or in the tank.

All other smaller quantities will pass through the system whether you use emul or demul.

I prefer emulsifying so as not to let any smaller amounts collect anywhere in the high pressure pump, lines or injectors.

This is a tough subject no doubt.... I do have 65,000 miles and my 8 original injectors just tested as having excellent balance rates.

I use emulsifying additive and a Racor secondary post OEM.

Now watch...... I jinxed myself.

Even Ramos oil here in the Sacramento area (shell, chevron, union 76, mobile, they sell them all) recommend and sell FPPF for the same reasons George and others have outlined.

HisDmax,


The GM diesel owners supplemental manual states that you will void your warranty if you use fuel/additives that are not outlined in the manual. The manual does contain fuel specifications. It does not contain any additive specs. I just could not find it in there. As far as the info. on additives I found all of that info. in a T.S.B. I would of never know if I did't sign up on this website and also alldatadiy.


Two questions.


Why would GM reccomend a additive that will hurt your vehichle if it has a 100k mile warranty?


Where can we contact GM about having there head so far up there tailpipe that you can't even hear any reconizable sound?

Why would GM reccomend a additive that will hurt your vehichle if it has a 100k mile warranty?





Because they have been trying to deny warranty claims on failed injectors based upon "contaminated fuel - customer caused issue" "failure to change out fuel filter cartridge (at LESS than the manual specified interval) - customer caused issue" "Corrosion and contamination in the fuel system (see Hoot's photos of the connections and lines) - customer caused issue"


But that's okay, because they've got FATCAT watching out for them to help deny warranty coverage!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif

arggghhhhhh


My head is swimming.......


Im going to mix standadyne, fppf and 405 to make sure im covered...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

I've said this before, and it bears repeating:


1.) FREE WATER is ABSOLUTELY destructive to our injection systems - proven fact!


2.) Our OEM filtration system is marginal - proven fact!


3.) If our OEM filter is marginal - it stands to reason that it is not an effective WATER SEPARATOR!


4.) Use of a DEMULSIFYING additive will produce FREE WATER!








Water in emulsion will destroy the injector tips and wear injectors too. That is the point of my re-post of the response from the Shell Oil engineer. BTW, there was some water caught in my trap and others here have had water (and a little corrosion) in the bottom of their filters too...


So how much water in emulsion will damage the injectors outright and how much will cause premature wear? Notice that there isn't a question as to whether it will, the question is "how much?"


jeff

I think there's some confusion based on the definition of "emulsion." It seems to me that the claims of "water in emulsion damaging the injectors" really means water that is entrained - not fully emulsified and therefore still free water in small quantities. Fully emulsified water has been combined at a molecular level and will not cause "steam explosions" or other free water damage. Important point is that diesel (unless processed by heating or some other separation means) ALWAYS has some water entrainment. The emulsion damage that we are warned against is MORE LIKELY to occur with a demulsifying additive and the resulting free water run through a less than 100% effective water separating filter agitated by engine vibration!

I use emulsion and my injectors LIVE http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

OK here are a couple more questions. I Have drained my fuel filter prior to using an additive and not found water and more recently running an additive still no water.


What caused the rust in my filter?? If water was in my separator why didn't it drain out and where did it go?? I'm thinking out my tailpipe.... which I guess is better than my head in my tailpipe. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


I'm not sure what to think about all this but, man it will definately create a head ache!!!http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif I think we all want to do what is best for our trucks it is just difficult to figure out what that is.


Add. filtration or not...


if yes then pre or post...


emulsify or demulsify, and the list goes on.....I'm going back to rodent hunting!!! At least I know when I have some sucess there.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Peace


Mike

What caused the rust in my filter?? If water was in my separator why didn't it drain out and where did it go?? I'm thinking out my tailpipe.... which I guess is better than my head in my tailpipe. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


I'm not sure what to think about all this but, man it will definately create a head ache!!!http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif I think we all want to do what is best for our trucks it is just difficult to figure out what that is.


Add. filtration or not...


if yes then pre or post...


emulsify or demulsify, and the list goes on.....I'm going back to rodent hunting!!! At least I know when I have some sucess there.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Peace


Mike








Mike read my post that I put up earlier were i was talking about aviation fuel that might give you the answer your looking for. Diesel fuel holds the water, by that I mean will not settle and stay on the bottom of the tank like gasoline. I am sure if the fuel stayed motionless for days you may find some(water) at the bottom, but it is just not going to happen unless there is gallons of water just dumped into the tank. After a day were the temps are in the 50s and at night is drops in the 20s....guess what water is forming in our tanks at the same time the frost is setting up on our trucks...but the diesel is keeping most of moisture and not letting it settle.


Diesel fuel hold water...that is why they have a water separator. Diesel fuel also is a breading ground for bacteria.


Hope this helps with the rust problem.

What caused the rust in my filter?? If water was in my separator why didn't it drain out and where did it go?? I'm thinking out my tailpipe.... which I guess is better than my head in my tailpipe. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif





Mike read my post that I put up earlier were i was talking about aviation fuel, that might give you the answer your looking for. Diesel fuel holds the water, by that I mean will not settle and stay on the bottom of the tank like gasoline. I am sure if the fuel stayed motionless for days you may find some(water) at the bottom, but it is just not going to happen unless there is gallons of water just dumped into the tank. After a day were the temps are in the 50s and at night is drops in the 20s....guess what water is forming in our tanks at the same time the frost is setting up on our trucks...but the diesel is keeping most of moisture and not letting it settle.


Diesel fuel hold water...that is why they have a water separator. Diesel fuel also is a breading ground for bacteria.


Hope this helps with the rust problem.Edited by: NoWake200