Soon we will have available new injector nozzles. These are being custom made in Italy and will be available in stock and 20% over. The factory uses state of the art machines and every nozzle is inspected for quality. Once I figure out how to post pics I will put some up. My partner was over in Italy last month to tour the factory.

More to come.

Greg

Greg,

You can upload pics directly into your post. Use the second icon from the right, above the text window, The one with the arrow http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/forum_images/post_button_image_upload.gif

It will prompt you to browse your own computer. Select the file and upload it. Pick both prompts, one after the other. No need to wait like it says.

Another awsome feature of this site! You don't have to host your own pics if you don't want to!

I would think the cost to gain on these injectors... until they can be changed easily... would be way to much for the small gain..... when you can put in a box, or stack.......


Two boxes and a tranny job...... 4000-6000.... then injectors.....anouther 2-4000.....


WOWhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif

These nozzles will be less than a 1K. The nice thing about injectors is it gives you go smoooooth power from bottom to top.

Greg

Keep us posted....

This could be the next big thing to solve high cost injector replacement when neccessary out of warranty.

Thanks for putting up the info Greg.Edited by: hoot

I would love to have them but it would be the install cost that would lead me away from them........ Any info on that price........

Somebody correct me if I am wrong here (probably am), but the nozzle is only a part of the overall injector assembly. The nozzle itself can become dirty or worn and the result would be a spray pattern that is not optimal. Maybe poorer mileage or performance. Maybe you want to flow more fuel so you change the nozzle for higher performance.


However, I am not sure if that would result in an injector failure. There must be an electro/mechanical part that acts as a valve to enable the fuel to flow into the nozzle. I was under the impression that this is were the high wear parts are at. Either was not openning completely or partially stuck open.


So if we put new nozzles on an old injector assembly, we still potentially have a worn injector?


We really need to understand the components of the injectors and what the modes of failure are. I think during the early introduction of the DMAX (2000 timeframe) there were some exploded views of the injectors. Should have saved this information.

I have a set of Dmax injectors here but it would be tuff to get the whole picture of how they work. What I have been told by a few techs is that its not the electical end failing its the mechanical end (nozzle) When the nozzle wears it will allow fuel fuel to return to the tank. If the nozzle is worn it can hang up causing power idle, lot of smoke etc. I am sure their are cases of the eletrical end going out but you just don't hear about that much. With new nozzle all you need to do is pull the injector take the nut off a pull the old and replace it with new. Now you have a very inexpensive repair compared to having to buy new. For the do it your selfer its great. We have been doing nozzles on the VW TDI for about a year now and it has been great. The quality of these nozzles are unbeleivable. They way they are made is so the fuel will spray out in a cone shape instead of a stream. Now you have better combustion which makes for more power. We have a few sets that should be here in the US for testing within the next month. I don't expect to have any for sale till the first of the year.

Greg

Here is some info on the injector...

My browser allows me to zoom on it. Right click if you use IE. Be sure your "Fit to Window" is off.

Injector (http://www.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/motorage4.JPG)Edited by: hoot

I would love to have them but it would be the install cost that would lead me away from them........ Any info on that price........


Figure about a grand for install.. and a days time


Eric

Hoot,


Good article for everyone to read. I either read the article you posted or something very similar. I remember a detailed discussion on how the whole injection system worked, since it was one of the first high pressure common rail systems for use by the general auto buying public in the US. Now we are getting somewhere.


So we have heard that the needle seat was hardened (correct words?) sometime in mid-2002 production. So is it the consensus then that the part that is wearing is at the very bottom of the injector that is shown in Hoot's link? And that this part would be replaceable with the nozzles that Greg has? What about the actual needle itself?


Alan

The nozzle is the part everyone was worried about when the double filter topic started but the valve and seat are just as important. The nozzle will probable wear first because the velocity will be very high but that will just screw up the pattern. We still need a readily available inexpensive new or rebuilt complete injector. We need to know what the problems have been with the injectors that have been replaced. If they are sticking open filling the crankcase, that is not a nozzle problem. We need someone to get this information for us "Eric". Later! Frank

The nozzle includes the needle. These two parts are machined together and the needle is lapped to the nozzle. I for one do not beleive the soft seat thing. Bosch has been makes injector nozzles for a long time so I would think that they would know what they are doing. My guess we be that a bunch got passed QA. The Dmax is not the first high pressure system they have delt with.


As for cheap rebuilds our nozzles will make it very reasonable. Not sure if Bosch has authorised any of its shops to work on the Dmax injector or not. If I remember I will ask my Bosch shop the next time I am in there.


GregEdited by: LanduytG

This sounds like a good alternative Greg. It will be interesting how things work out. It will take another year or two before the 5 year / 100k mile warranty limit is reached on most of these early engines. I would think at that time we will see an increase in interest in the product.





Alan

May be a stupid question, but how will a 20% larger injector nozzle effect performance/fuel economy? What's the good/bad?

May be a stupid question, but how will a 20% larger injector nozzle effect performance/fuel economy? What's the good/bad?

With 20% over you can still have economy if you don't flog it all the time. A go thing about larger nozzles is you get more fuel in the same stock injection window. Hence you get more time to burn the fuel which will make more power.

The thing I have seen with nozzle replacement is torque. You will HP increase as well but injectors can really give you more torque.

Greg

Need turbo too !!!!


Fuel and air go hand and mouth .... Not that I would luv the smoke ...


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

You will get a little increase in smoke. But with added fuel the boost will also go up a bite.





Greg

to go faster I need more smoke so I can run more nitrous

We have a shippment of nozzles coming in on Friday. Not sure what we have in it for the Duramax but their should be something, stock or oversize.

Greg

20% larger "hole" or opening in the nozzle at the same fuel pressure will yield a 20% larger flow of fuel. The problem is that unless you can change the duty cycle so that the injector is running less open time when out of the boost, then you will be running 20% more fuel all of the time. The PCM or computers on most gas cars use the O2 sensor to read the AF mixture and adjust the timing on the injectors so that they don't run too rich. The diesel does not use anything like this and I believe cannot correct the on time of the injectors to compensate for the added fuel in a low demand situation like low load. If they do, then it would have to be based on boost pressure and air flow alone with no way to know that the injectors are larger. Someone in the know, let me know how the PCM would correct for a 20 % larger constant flow from the injectors and keep the engine from running too much towards the rich side all of the time.


Jess

20% larger "hole" or opening in the nozzle at the same fuel pressure will yield a 20% larger flow of fuel. The problem is that unless you can change the duty cycle so that the injector is running less open time when out of the boost, then you will be running 20% more fuel all of the time. The PCM or computers on most gas cars use the O2 sensor to read the AF mixture and adjust the timing on the injectors so that they don't run too rich. The diesel does not use anything like this and I believe cannot correct the on time of the injectors to compensate for the added fuel in a low demand situation like low load. If they do, then it would have to be based on boost pressure and air flow alone with no way to know that the injectors are larger. Someone in the know, let me know how the PCM would correct for a 20 % larger constant flow from the injectors and keep the engine from running too much towards the rich side all of the time.


Jess








The turbo will make up for the added fuel just like it does with a box installed. The difference is, that all calculations will be skewed by 20% much like (but not the same in the leak dept) running a pressure box that skews 100% of the time.





The one thing that I hear from those running injectors is it gets to sound like the pilot injection is shut off when under load.





I'll also add that the Bosch/GM needles are "coated" which should help them have a happy life. We've been playing with the dissection of many injectors, and it seems (contrary to popular and MY belief) that the nozzle isn't wearing as much as we first thought. It seems the body cracking thing is more common...

20% larger "hole" or opening in the nozzle at the same fuel pressure will yield a 20% larger flow of fuel. The problem is that unless you can change the duty cycle so that the injector is running less open time when out of the boost, then you will be running 20% more fuel all of the time. The PCM or computers on most gas cars use the O2 sensor to read the AF mixture and adjust the timing on the injectors so that they don't run too rich. The diesel does not use anything like this and I believe cannot correct the on time of the injectors to compensate for the added fuel in a low demand situation like low load. If they do, then it would have to be based on boost pressure and air flow alone with no way to know that the injectors are larger. Someone in the know, let me know how the PCM would correct for a 20 % larger constant flow from the injectors and keep the engine from running too much towards the rich side all of the time.

You can have larger injectors without having excess fuel. When driving down the road it takes X amount of fuel to move the truck. Now if you are putting more fuel in do to larger injectors then the computer will see this and the fuel management system to cut back which in turn gives you the same amount of fuel as before. Now when the throttle is wide open you will see the effects of the larger injectors. These will work fine and I am sure those that try them will see.

JK
As far as Bosch nozzles with soft seats I never did buy that. They know how to make nozzles and it was dirt doing the damage. These Boiso nozzles are coated as well.


Greg

What's the big trick to installing a set of injectors. How far apart does the intake system have to come apart? I understand that it's a big job but I can't imagine that it would be too hard to do. The heads don't have to come off do they. Are there special tools needed? Sometimes these jobs can get bigger than life. Everyone talked about an engine swap on my last class A motorhome like it was vodoo or something and all it really was was a bunch of work.

Soon as they are ready, so am I...

Kennedy:


Your the man I hear! My buddy Kevin Bowes at River Road Auto and Truck repair raves about your stuff. I have all the mods on my truck as you show on your website. (well, not ALL the mods)


Maybe you can answer this, 03' Dmax with 33,000 miles.


Very hard starting, when it does finally start, truck has no power loss, has no other problems, and has no problems smoking (the competition or the tires).


Taking to dealer for diagnosis. Hopefully not injectors.


Thanks Kennedy,


TommJr, Hudson-Prescott WI

NOW I remember why I liked caruretors so much.
You could rebuild them yourself.
They gave massive low end power (you punched it and it moved). I remember the first injected car I drove. I thought to my self my God its flat.

You probably drove a crappy injected car, that statement is a bit vague PC.

Injection done right should be better all the way thru I thought...?

You probably drove a crappy injected car, that statement is a bit vague PC.


I have to agree!


I had the old Corvette Rochester Injection on a 350HP 327CI in a 57 chevy when I was in the Marines (1966-70) and it out ran every carbuarted thing I ran on that car and I got up to 17mpg with a 370 rear.


2DAMAX

I hate to burst any ones bubble but, the PCM willnot correct for larger injectors, period! There is no feedback like there is in a gas motor. Fuel is delivered based on throttle position, engine rpm and air flow. From this the computer looks up a fixed pulse width and delivers it. The turbo willnot make up the difference. Take a look at the wastegate on your truck, there is no computer control. Once boost reaches a predetermind level it opens. Add-on boxes, both pressure and pulse width and PCM reprograms donot add fuel at light load and idle conditions as the 20% larger injectors will do. Someone needs to do there homework before opening their mouth!


You may get away with 20% more fuel but until they have been tested I wouldnot give out false and misleading information. The reason the pilot injection gets screwed up is too much fuel is delivered during pilot time. This is all something that can be fixed in computer reprogramming but without doing that you've increased flow 20% at all times and that's not a good thing. Above 50% throttle they will mostlikely work fine and make more Hp but at lower throttle angle you may get excessive smoke and loss of mileage.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/319_inj1.jpg


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/8C3_i3.jpg

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/7C9_ic2.jpgEdited by: sdaver

"Above 50% throttle they will mostlikely work fine and make more Hp but at lower throttle angle you may get excessive smoke and loss of mileage."

Purfect !!!!!!! Bring on the NOS .....

Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

"Above 50% throttle they will mostlikely work fine and make more Hp but at lower throttle angle you may get excessive smoke and loss of mileage."

Purfect !!!!!!! Bring on the NOS .....

Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


I thought there was only two throttle positions to use, 50% and 100%

"Above 50% throttle they will mostlikely work fine and make more Hp but at lower throttle angle you may get excessive smoke and loss of mileage."

Purfect !!!!!!! Bring on the NOS .....

Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


I thought there was only two throttle positions to use, 50% and 100%

Pretty much !!!!!! Just give me an idle speed too !!!!!

Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

I did not see how the PCM could make up for the extra fuel without some sort of closed loop feedback sensor. Since there is no AFM or O2 sensor on a diesel, then it would make sense that the PCM is using a fixed timing and fuel map to regulate the fuel injected. There are only two ways to get more fuel into the engine on an injected motor. Either raise the rail pressure to increase the amount of fuel squirted through the same size hole, or increase the size of the hole. If there was a way to put a variable fuel pressure regulator on that could sense vacuum and boost, then it would be possible to use the "stock" fuel flow at low demand, and then let the boost pressure to the variable raise the rail pressure as boost increases. This was a popular way to get more fuel into gassers when installing an aftermarket turbo kit. The problem was that it did not regulate well enough. You would probably have to have Quad, TTS, Juice, or some company that has visibility to the maps in the PCM program the fuel maps to take advantage of the higher rates of fuel flow and adjust the injectors for a 20 % lower duty cycle at times of less demand and off boost running. It really is not just as simple as sticking in bigger injectors without adjusting the timing and fuel maps to compensate for the larger fuel flow. It will smoke more and run richer all of the time and hurt fuel economy and off boost response unless to you can get into the maps and recurve them to take advantage of the larger injectors both on boost and off boost. Someday very soon someone will come up with a program and interface that allows visibility to the stock fuel and timing maps. Then you will be able to see what the aftermarket programmers are doing to the maps. Until someone either makes a read only program that can do this, or one of the aftermarket tuners comes out with a program or box that will let us program our own timing and fuel maps, we are just guessing at best. The only ones that really know what the maps are doing are the programmers like Quad, Edge and Diablo. It would be very very interesting to know what they use to get access to the maps and how they decide on what to change. I for one am used to the gassers that allow full access and visibility to the maps. Then you are not just taking someones word for whether or not the programming is "right". It would be very easy to compare the fuel and timing maps from one programmer to the other, say the Predator to the Juice, and see why one runs hotter and the other does not. It is still just a matter of more or less timing vs more or less fuel at certain vacuum and boost conditions. There is not any rocket science, other than no ignition parts to worry about. More timing and more fuel mean more power. The "art" is knowing when to apply and how to apply to get the most power at the safest levels without creating any drivability issues.


Jess

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/319_inj1.jpg


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/8C3_i3.jpg

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/7C9_ic2.jpg

Which part goes bad when they replace injectors? The nozzle? If so, wouldn't that be a cheaper alternative to buying brand new entire injectors if one goes bad.... except no the larger nozzles?