Well, it seems the mighty 6 Gun does do a whole lot better when pulled down. Finally got a 6 speed on the rollers today. Not going to argue about advertising hype or claims here, or whether an auto will ever be able to use the low torque, BUT it does have about 800LB/FT of TQ from 1750-2000 RPM unlike anything else tested.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif





More news at 11.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif





Or maybe tomorrow...

I knew it was good for pullin stuff up big hillshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif. Thanks Banks. Super Diesel

So did you run a baseline? What were the numbers of a base truck when tested the same way. Also did you run anything else the same way and what were the results.

Of corse I'm still a TTS fan. For flat out accurate numbers, and puttin the clean power down, Steves the man. BIG thanks goes to Stevehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif. Keep up the great work! Super Diesel

So did you run a baseline? What were the numbers of a base truck when tested the same way. Also did you run anything else the same way and what were the results.


Good points!

Well, if the 6-Gun/Speed loader runs with the Hot Juice/Attitude or the Stealth 135 or 165 then I will give them credit. I am still hung up on them stating that their tuner is the most powerful. Who knows; I may end up with one just to test and comparehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Kennedy, did you happen to test a regular juice or any other boxes to see how they compare?

The six gun will run with most others if you were to add the Monster exhaust which gives you 35 Horsepower with a new muffler.Advertising genius's.

It sure would be interesting to see how well the Banks would stack with a Quad 215 on that six speed. Of course you would probably need one of CPMac's clutch/flywheel kits -- I highly doubt a stock flywheel would survive it (although maybe it could on a dyno)...

The six gun will run with most others if you were to add the Monster exhaust which gives you 35 Horsepower with a new muffler.Advertising genius's.


Don`t forget about the stickers that come with it. If you install them on the read of the truck, that will give you an other 15-17 horseshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

JK, very interesting. I guess what I wonder from this (and I know you said you weren't going to get into it):


Why doesn't this power show in the auto, or on the track, etc? Does it defuel SO much during (auto) shifts that the track #s blow? Is it even possible to get this power out of it in an auto, or in the real world? As others asked, how does this test method compare to other tuners (you indicated nothing else tested shows these numbers)?


I guess this may validate their claims in a way (open to interpretation), and reinforces this product as a good (great!) tow tuner. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

The rumors/comments about not being able to get the power out with an auto all started when somebody stated that the ALLISON never spends any time in the very low RPM range. So in affect the low RPM power was worthless because you could never operate your vehicle at such low RPMs.


I agree with that statment to a small extent. Yes when you floor your truck and run through the gears it does not see below 2000RPM very much at all.


However when I do drive like a Grandpa and only apply minimal throttle movement, my truck with 265/75 tires actually is always in the 1600-2200 RPM range. I can drive 30 miles and never break out of this range. Perfect for towing a huge load and not wanting to ever dowshift.


That is why JK's test results need to be verified with a base run and other manufactures comparisons runs or otherwise it is just smoke in the wind.


BTW, the six-gun is programmed to make approx. 30HP more with an Allison transmission as compared to the programing when a manual transmission truck is hooked up. The TCC wires and Canbus tell the six-gun which power level to incorporate. For some reason Banks thinks the ALLISON handles more power then the manual transmission??????????? Contrary to what other manufactures have stated?????????????Edited by: Bronco

I agree with the others, we need to know baseline figures and how other modules/tuners compare under the same testing.


ChrisEdited by: CMDMAX

I'll set up some jpgs and post later. I could SEE it in the EGT that the Banks was holding in there better as it held to mid to upper 1400's on the truck's gauge. The others dropped off as RPM dropped.


For the record,it was WITH the speedloader, and the probe was attached, was not allowed to read actual EGT so it would not cut fuel. Banks EGT did not exceed 1400°...





The 6 speed was used for simplicity of holding the gears w/o the need for extra tools.


I need to sort the data and see how the data compares. I had trouble with the optical tach on some runs, and switched to the tach pulse wire part way through.





Edited by: Kennedy

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/Banks_6_gun.jpg


Same setup used on both tests in above graph, just a difference in testing method. The Controlled accelleration is a steady accelleration test whereas the downstep test at fixed points. In hindsight, thestart point could have been lowered a bit, and in the future, I plan to have the first step written to hold a bit longer prior to moving down.





http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/Banks_6_gun_2.jpg


I did not test stock in a dowstep, but added the stock controlled accelleration test to this graph for comparison.





Tests were performed between 35 and 75 mph. Controlled accelleration tests used a 12 second accellleration time and began after EGT's had climbed to 1100°f or so depending on setup and how much they would build. Downstep was performed using 5mph step size and 2 second hold. Incresing hold time did nothing to alter the numbers, and only made more heat/stress.

Kennedy thanks for beating on your truck/dyno.


The issue here is that a step down test does show the Banks six Gun laying down some serious low end torque however due to the nature of the test, it is easy to assume other tuners might also show favorable low end torque results. This would all be due to the fact that the step down test " prespools" the turbo. Without doing the same test with other tuners such as the EDGE there is no real data here. Also EGTS from other tuners with this type of test ( stepdown) would be critical as well. Edited by: Bronco

However when I do drive like a Grandpa and only apply minimal throttle movement, my truck with 265/75 tires actually is always in the 1600-2200 RPM range. I can drive 30 miles and never break out of this range. Perfect for towing a huge load and not wanting to ever dowshift.





I run 285`s and driving normal, 95% of the time the truck is in the 1450-2150 rpm. Even while driving a little hard, I can easily keep the rpm under 2200 90% of the time. This is running empty.


Of course while loaded it would be much harder to keep the truck in the sweet zone due to using the TOW setting. But even then 1700-2400 rpm is pretty easy to stay at. So; if the 6-Gun really does have the low end torque as claimed, the Allison should have no problem using this torque.

Kennedy thanks for beating on your truck/dyno.


The issue here is that a step down test does show the Banks six Gun laying down some serious low end torque however due to the nature of the test, it is easy to assume other tuners might also show favorable low end torque results. This would all be due to the fact that the step down test " prespools" the turbo. Without doing the same test with other tuners such as the EDGE there is no real data here. Also EGTS from other tuners with this type of test ( stepdown) would be critical as well.








Tests were done, and nothing matched it. Even those with just across 400RWHP which is all I subjected this truck to...

While this testing is a good start, the fact that the baselines and the after tests were run differently makes the data not good for much of anything. To get good data all test must be run the exact same way. This means start and end at the same place at the same step time and the methods must be the same. It appears that the Banks will make torque down low under special conditions but how about others? The biggest thing I see missing is how in the world would you use this in the real world unless you had a manaul transmission and allowed the truck to lug down when pulling a heavy load up a long grade with the EGT probe connected to something other than the exhaust.


"For the record,it was WITH the speedloader, and the probe was attached, was not allowed to read actual EGT so it would not cut fuel. Banks EGT did not exceed 1400°..."


So in order to get the reported results you must install the device in a method other than what the manufacture tells you to do!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

"I agree with that statment to a small extent. Yes when you floor your truck and run through the gears it does not see below 2000RPM very much at all.


However when I do drive like a Grandpa and only apply minimal throttle movement, my truck with 265/75 tires actually is always in the 1600-2200 RPM range. I can drive 30 miles and never break out of this range. Perfect for towing a huge load and not wanting to ever dowshift."


Bronco if you are towing a huge load and can get to use these max tq and hp numbers at part throttle than you are the man. You can't baby the throttle and get an auto trans to keep the motor in the lower rpm range and get the ecm or programming to go to full fuel. And the last time I towed a huge load I didn't baby the throttle all the time. Sure you can drive easy but the only way you can use all the hp is with a manual. Most any programmer or box will increase part throttle performance and yes some are better than the others but until JK gets more testing done to verify what it does with the probe hooked up compared to the others all we can do is speculate.

CPMAC,


My comment about the throttle movement being minimal was misleading and did not illustrate my point.


What I was trying to say is that if there is extra power down low, it will be used by the Allison and ultimently effect drivabillaty in a positive manner.


I do agree it would be interesting to see more "pull down" type dyno test on different products. HP,TQ and EGT.


I think a EGT graph that overlayed on the HP and TQ graph would be ideal. But without EGT logging software highly unlikely.

Nice to see that Banks' numbers are factual..


This amuses me since I have a 6-speed. How does the truck perform acceleration-wise at low RPM's compared to the Juice?


I've found that my Juice/Attitude makes quite a difference from idle up to 2000rpm where most don't, but compared to the low RPM grunt of a cummins it's still a weakling down there.


Since I can really lug this thing down, I've found that the low boost fueling adjustment on the attitude makes a HUGE difference! I probably notice it much more than an allison equipped truck would since I spend most of my time below 1700rpm.

You may just have to take my word for it here. I know that is hard for some to do but...


The FACT here is Banks says it has TQ down low and it and it DOES.


The FACT is, I ran the Juice 90 and 125 along with the VA 110 and 150 and NEITHER came close below 2,000 RPM. Even a 400RWHP unit making 1500°f plus EGT did NOT have the torque backup and fell 50 lb/ft short where the Banks "torque backup" "kicked in".





The other boxes carried a similar shape going up as going down whereas the Banks has a distinctive shape difference.








I'm on dialup for the moment, but will attempt to post a jpg of a 400HP box in with the 6gun/SL.





Cam,


No driving impressions as it was not my truck. I just wanted to get the data from a downstep on the Banks unit and see if it worked on a 6 speed. I did not try anything known to produce over 400RWHP.





P.S. if you go to the track with the 6 Gun, be prepared to get your doors blown off as the useable power during acceleration is just not there. Hit a hill that pulls you down, and it will run like a TOTALLY different unit...

Im not ready to jump on any banks bandwagon but I do find the information interesting..........all of you arm chair quarterbacks need to remember John and his testing the next time you make a post like, who sells the cheapest juice box or cheapest air filter. Testing like this cost money and what little profits that are made on sales have to offset these cost. There is no free lunch someone has to foot the bill. Thanks John

Im not ready to jump on any banks bandwagon but I do find the information interesting..........all of you arm chair quarterbacks need to remember John and his testing the next time you make a post like, who sells the cheapest juice box or cheapest air filter. Testing like this cost money and what little profits that are made on sales have to offset these cost. There is no free lunch someone has to foot the bill. Thanks John


The dyno show I was just at charged 20 to strap down and 10 each additional pull. No tinkering on the rollers allowed.


If there was not so much competition in the aftermarket industry, the little profit margin on products would be enough due to volume. If the volume is not there due to too many vendors, well then that is a totally different problem.


Anywho Sdaver you run a Duramaximiser, correct? Is that not a rail pressure increase device? Stack a rail pressure device with any other module/downloader and the low end results would be similar. Banks just happens to due all 3 pulsewidth,timing, and rail pressure in one device. It is just too bad they have so many EPA concerns http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Shocked.gif and also turbo speed/egt concerns. Anything goes on the 1/4 mile dragstrip!


One final note, the six gun with speed loader defuels at 1300-1350, so if the EGT probe is faked out in any shape or form, then the dyno numbers are bogus!Edited by: Bronco

Kennedy, how safe is the 6 loader to run on a stock tranny. They say on their website that the 6 loader is the safest of all the programmers out there. I want to get something for the new truck when something becomes available, I wasnt real happy with the E-Z Amp due to the problems I kept having with it.

I wasn't born yesterday. The Banks probe was not used, but the truck had a pyro. EGT max was mid 1300's to 1400° with the Banks unit. Other boxes made similar temps. The one shown below made 1500° The Banks unit maintained a level EGT based on my observations. The others ALL dropped EGT as the RPM dropped. My limited downstep experience showed that while the downstep tended to boost the lower RPM power, the general shap remained the same.





People are missing the point here. The Banks unit does something the others do not AND the shape of the curve is unique:


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/Downstep_comparo.jpg

The six gun monitors transmission slip same via the can-bus same as the vanaken,juice,and any other units that " monitor slip".


The six- gun also taps into the TCC wires whitch allows torque converter lock up protection and better slip monitoring.


It all comes down to being able to "defuel" before it is too late. To defuel after the fact does not due as much as anticipating slip.


If you study the TQ curves of the six-gun you will notice that power starts to decrease at 2000RPM's. By the time it gets to 3200 Rpms the power is decreased to approx 500 foot pounds. The torque goes down from 815 Ftlbs to 500 Ftlbs.


This torque curve " shaping" along with the TCC wires allows the six gun to be the safest.


Safe and clean is not always the funnest. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

For the record,it was WITH the speedloader, and the probe was attached, was not allowed to read actual EGT so it would not cut fuel. Banks EGT did not exceed 1400°...


Kennedy,


Did not mean to insinuate you were born yesterday. The above quote led me to belive you jimmied with the EGT probe.

"The dyno show I was just at charged 20 to strap down and 10 each additional pull. No tinkering on the rollers allowed."http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

I make 25-40(and have done this 6 or so occasions) pulls when testing or trying something new.......add it up.......johns dyno 40k+

Some of us actually test and try things others just talk about it.........talk is cheap

Im not ready to jump on any banks bandwagon but I do find the information interesting..........all of you arm chair quarterbacks need to remember John and his testing the next time you make a post like, who sells the cheapest juice box or cheapest air filter. Testing like this cost money and what little profits that are made on sales have to offset these cost. There is no free lunch someone has to foot the bill. Thanks John


2 bits, 4 bits, 6 bits a (well you get the gest of it) Just kiddin` with ya!


Getting back on subject! Why not place the EGT probe in the exhaust instead of the manafold? Many do it this way, this way if you are already running gages you can compare before and after Turbo temps. And the 6-Gun will not back down due to the temps going up into the 1300* area.


This is just a thought.

TALK IS CHEAP AND B.S. WINS THE MARATHON! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifEdited by: Bronco

For the record,it was WITH the speedloader, and the probe was attached, was not allowed to read actual EGT so it would not cut fuel. Banks EGT did not exceed 1400°...


Kennedy,


Did not mean to insinuate you were born yesterday. The above quote led me to belive you jimmied with the EGT probe.





I thought if the Banks probe did not see at least 300 degrees, it would not activate the speedloader. Edited by: Amric

SPECIAL NOTE:


In an earlier post I stated the six-gun programs a differnt fuel curve for the manual transmission as when compared to the Allison transmission. I based this stament off of a conversation I had with a BANKS technician and also my interperatation of earlyer post by Banks employees.


The higher powers contacted me and corrected me. The fueling program is basically the same for both. Sorry for any confusion!Edited by: Bronco

I appreciate the read of info for what it is. The point still remains the same. Unless the Six-gun is connected the way it was intended the results are skewed at best. In addition if the torque is only accessible with a zf6 the whole concept is mute as 90% of the Duramax market share is Allison. Just another EBay scalper selling to a uniformed purchaser yet anouther dust collecting Banks product. How much to do a step down test on Monster Exhaust and aircleaner? Maybe you'll find the hidden 35 HP. Has been entertaing to say the least. Edited by: Reggie

Just a note : John Kennedy has a pretty fancy Dyno and not the "belly button" 248C DynoJet like everybody else. So, even though he may have changed a "reader" the results would be the same... RPM is RPM. I don't think that John would post arronious numbers if he felt that they were missleading or false.


thanks John, good job! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs%20Up.gif





Burner---------------> http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Bronco,





My born yesterday comment was not directed specifically at you.





You guys will have to trust that I know how to test things as fairly as possible.


Couple of points:


1) The EGT probe was stuffed in by the turbo heat shield.


2) Having a revision to the step test could have helped the upper RPM steps by giving more time to stabilize, BUT the test was performed as closely to identical as possible for each given program.


3) In the interest of NOT beating the piss out of the truck, we ran 3 tests per setup in most cases. It seemed that this truck had a pattern of giving a bit more power on the second of the 3 runs, BUT we only used the consistent tests and threw out the "ringers"


4) EGT was recorded mentally by my CASUAL observation while watching other things as well. The EGT on the other boxes fell where the Banks maintained and the "torque backup" occurred. I did not observe the smoke as the dyno bay door was closed.





To respond to Broncos EGT plot info, that is a good idea that will come in time. A mere $2k investment with Superflow for an EGT panel will allow plotting EGT right in there. Also can do psi, and can even do ECT fuel psi, fuel RAIL psi, and most anything that you could imagine. Doubtful this will ever be listed on any of my public posts though.





My involvement with Banks (subject to change) has been the purchase of 1ea 6 gun-SL, and 2ea Big Head wastegates. I have been in no way compensated nor enticed by Banks to do this testing. Just curious. Personally, i do not like the way the box accellerates or responds to pedal input, but I like a more lively pedal. The other boxes mentioned accellerate much more aggressively and to be honest the 90HP Juice, and 110 VA make better HP and have a nicer TQ curve shape accellerating while running similar max EGT's...





The end result is this: Lug the Dmax down, and the Banks gets it done...

It should be noted that the truck has 3.5 straight pipe and amsoil air filter. I did not observe much smoke from any of the boxes that we ran

Just a note : John Kennedy has a pretty fancy Dyno and not the "belly button" 248C DynoJet like everybody else. So, even though he may have changed a "reader" the results would be the same... RPM is RPM. I don't think that John would post arronious numbers if he felt that they were missleading or false.


thanks John, good job! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs%20Up.gif





Burner---------------> http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif





He (Or anyone with an Dyno) could if he was getting ready to sell Banks equipmenthttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif You know how money talks!


It would be so easy to make the Dyno read pretty much what you wanted it too.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


Not that John would, I just stated that it COULD be done by John or anyone else.

Kennedy,


Thanks for the step-down test. Banks was spot on with their advertising claims. They'll have the market covered when their Racebox comes out. If you're into towing more than racing, get the Six-Gun. It looks like it's one of the best boxes for towing around. If drag races are your thing, get the Racebox. I'll be looking forward for the latter of the two.

Banks owns the market anyway due to the fact that most people have never nor will they ever hear of companies like Edge, or Bully Dog, or Quad. These companies fill a very little nich, and Banks is not worried about any of these companies.


It doesn`t matter how good a product is, if very few people know about it, it will not last. Take a look at BeOS (I know, you are probably thinking WHAT?) 3-4 years ago they were years ahead of Microsoft windows. But they were squeezed out, now they are no morehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif

Thanks for the testing, John! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif


To me, those were very surprising results. I expected the Banks 6 Gun to produce something like those numbers on the load test, but I also expected Edge and others to produce correspondingly similar results. I still think the method that Banks arrives at the 155hp claim, etc is not in accordance with how others rate their products, but enough of that.


So, if one is towing heavy in mountainous terrain, this box will apparently do a good job for you.

If Banks would have just said Highest power available at 1900 RPM's , it would have made all the differnce in the world.


I am curious how the EDGE stacked with a rail pressure device would fair? Obviously more money but probally similar low end results?

The thing I see missing here is that the device was not installed per the manufacture instructions. I wonder if the results would have been the same if it had been install by the book? I may have missed it but I donot believe I saw what level of power was tested. Only that it was with the speed loader so I would assume it was level 6. If that is the case then that is a position the manufacture states not to Tow in. I think if were going to do Tow testing then it needs to be done in the level the manufacture recommends and installed as per the manfacture directions. This way you would get an apples to apples comparision, not apples to oranges as we have now.


The unique curve showen in the earlier graph is just simply the way tuneing is being done. It clearly showes that Banks is not raiseing power as much at the upper RPM range. I beleive this to be an effort to help the Allison to make full power shifts, if you donot increase the power at shift points it should not slip. Also the Stock data sure seem's fishey. I've dyno tested better than 500 different D-max trucks and have never seen a stock truck Rev to +3500 http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif Look at the Banks runs and it ends at 3300 where it should so something wrong! Properly controlled testing still needs to be done.

SoCal wrote (and others have implied) "So, if one is towing heavy in mountainous terrain, this box will apparently do a good job for you."


The thing everyone needs to keep in mind is Banks did not design the box to tow in Level 6. When questioned at the LA Dyno event, PeterT the Banks representative indicated you would only tow in levels 2 or 3. So while the above dyno charts are good for verifying the claims made by Banks, there are not representative of what you would likely get while towing. Level 6 Banks is the equivalent of towing in Juice Level 4. I'll bet not too many people do this (at least for very long with a big load)


For towing, it is the Juice Level 2 (or 1) versus Banks Level 3 (or 2) versus TTS Tow, etc. If were talking towing, then we need to be addressing the levels identified in the previous sentence.





Just my 2 cents worth,


Alan

The thing I see missing here is that the device was not installed per the manufacture instructions. I wonder if the results would have been the same if it had been install by the book? I may have missed it but I donot believe I saw what level of power was tested. Only that it was with the speed loader so I would assume it was level 6. If that is the case then that is a position the manufacture states not to Tow in. I think if were going to do Tow testing then it needs to be done in the level the manufacture recommends and installed as per the manfacture directions. This way you would get an apples to apples comparision, not apples to oranges as we have now.


The unique curve showen in the earlier graph is just simply the way tuneing is being done. It clearly showes that Banks is not raiseing power as much at the upper RPM range. I beleive this to be an effort to help the Allison to make full power shifts, if you donot increase the power at shift points it should not slip. Also the Stock data sure seem's fishey. I've dyno tested better than 500 different D-max trucks and have never seen a stock truck Rev to +3500 http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif Look at the Banks runs and it ends at 3300 where it should so something wrong! Properly controlled testing still needs to be done.











I mentioned earlier some grief with the optic tach and switching to the tach pulse line.


Casual observation showed the EGT in the mid to upper 1300's. If the Banks unit trimmed a bit of fuel for EGT, it wouldn't likely be all that much, and the shape would likely remain the same. Fact is, the Banks has a unique curve that differs from the upswing when pulled down.





Guess I'll have to retest on my truck to back it up. While I'm at it, I have a certain 120HP ECM flash I want to test/plothttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

True, Banks does not recommend towing in level 6. Most people don't dyno their Juice in level 2 either. We've seen plenty of dyno charts of the Juice at max. He was trying to see what the 6 Gun curve looked like on that type of dyno test, and it does look diifferent than any other I've seen (not necessarily better, just different.)


It does look somewhat like Bank's own chart, and my first reaction when I saw that one was the torque curve looked strange, starting high and dropping off rapidly with rpm.


I think when the 120hp ECM gets dyno'd, the conclusion we might arrive at is: the Bosch HPCR system gives the tuner a wide range of latitude to shape the hp and tq curves the way they see fit. They all have a different idea of what is an ideal towing profile, or racing profile, etc.


I think we already know there are some very talented tuners out there. With all of Banks' resources, I'd have been very disappointed if they couldn't keep up with all of the... others.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

The way I see it is that Banks (marketing hype aside) is positioning the Six Gun as a tuner designed primarily for towing, with moderate performance gains achieved at higher settings without producing excessive soot. The soon to-be-announced Banks "Race" box will compete with other performance tuners, without emissions considerations.


Given this, I think it's only fair to compare the Six Gun and all the other tuners setup per each manaufacturer's recommended configuration for towing. That means testing the Six Gun on level 3, the Juice on Level 2, the TTS Powerloader Tow tune, plus all others in max recommended tow settings.


Then lets look at the HP and torque curves as well as EGTs on a load dyno like John has. It may be entirely true that Banks outperforms other tuners under 2000rpm under load; only an apples-to-apples test will reveal the truth.


Doug

Hey Banks,


Not to get off the subject of the Six-Gun, but how 'bout making a nice polished intake system for the Duramax that includes the heat shield and tube. Then all of my upgrades would be Banks.

I mentioned earlier some grief with the optic tach and switching to the tach pulse line.


Casual observation showed the EGT in the mid to upper 1300's. If the Banks unit trimmed a bit of fuel for EGT, it wouldn't likely be all that much, and the shape would likely remain the same. Fact is, the Banks has a unique curve that differs from the upswing when pulled down.





Guess I'll have to retest on my truck to back it up. While I'm at it, I have a certain 120HP ECM flash I want to test/plothttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif





So the bottom line is we still do not know what the 6 gun will do. The current test data is flawed and needs to be redone.


As far as a certain 120 ECM reflash I must assume your talking about the custom unit I did for your truck 2 years ago, back when you were fooling with injectors. Since it was a test unit for your injectors I doubt it would work anywhere close to what is being sold today to the public. The product we sell has been well documented by Sdaver, Dmax_doug, Diesel Power and many others. http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

John, thanks for the tests. I know that it took time and energy to perform them. It is always good to get information on the products available. This is what makes our forum great.... always someone with the knowledge and ability to let the rest of us know what is going on before we spend our money on products.


Keep up the good work!!!


Harvey

The curve reminds me of JD tractor diesels, they have a big torque boost in the mid-range to pull you through tough spots. Certainly looks to me as if the curve is better suited to towing rather than 1/4 mile...start to pull down on an upgrade and boom!....more torque. My guess is the competition tuner will have a curve more like the other modules and keep on climbing until the end.


I just started running the 6G/SL on my 03 D/A CC this week (on level 3) and the additional torque makes for a responsive powertrain. Since I tow and do a lot of driving on secondary roads at 55-60, I find the torque works pretty good. Trans is still getting used to the power so I'm giving it a few more miles before I step up to level 4.


And yes it does drive just like the torque curve would indicate. Curious to see what it does to my MPG, I filled up right after the install and am trying very hard (and for the most part, succeeding) in driving "normally".


JK....thanks for the information, charts and the hard work. Very informative.

There are alot of people that say that the tranny has to learn and get used to the new power of a box. Is this really true? Mine hasn't behaved any differently from first installing the Six-Gun to now. It's always run the same in the 1/4 also.

I am getting ready to sell a new paint! it is the blackest paint ever manufactured, however when used on some trucks it may look white. So to make sure you are getting the blackest paint in the world you will need to test it a special way. Any other method will show it to be very light in color.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


That is the way I am reading the power produced by the Banks box.


I could care less how much power or torque the 6-Gun makes by testing it in a special way, when in reality it is less then steller. Just about ever box/programer built for the Duramax out performs it from what I have read by just about everyone that has tried it.


And this test by John is just about useless. First; it is done with a manual tranny. There must be all of 10 sold to date. (That was a joke for those that are ready to call fowl) Second; the probe was not installed. That`s right, it was not installed. Placing it in the radiador over flow would have been just as accurate. Third; the test compared the curve to a stock truck curve from a different type of test.


I know that I said, I may just end up with one to compare to the others. The more I read, and the more I think about it. I`d be a fool to waste my money on HYPE! And today, I am no fool!

When you lug to acheive the meat of the program while towing does Banks stop a downshift with the Allison therefore bringing the R's up where the power will fall off with their program ???


Everyone has said the Duramax likes to rev ...We need auto testing where the Duramax market exsist out in the playing field...


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

I think we should just drop the discussion until the competition box comes out...this is a better match to the other boxes.


Also, to clarify - the Banks install guide says not to tow in 5 or 6 UNLESS you beef the trans and convertor. They also say to keep EGT's down at 5 or 6 with heavy loads, you need to improve airflow in and out of the engine in order to keep EGT's below 1400. Many of you are running AFE's, 4" exhaust and a transgo or similar kit and convertor so you should be able to try out level 6 to your heart's content with 10K on the hitch.


I'm going to run 4/5 unloaded and 3 towing until I can beef the trans.

Fred G,


I would be curious to here your impressions of level six unloaded.


At what RPM does the new power become noticable?


At what RPM does the new power start to taper off and return to a stock feeling?


Did shift quality change?


Any other impressions you might have.

Bronco,


I'm still learning along with the six-gun but here goes -


The powerband does start to flatten/taper at 2800/3000...still a lot stronger than stock, but the power does fade a bit. And it does defuel on the shift, which felt weird at first - reminds me a bit of my old truck's 4L60E and it's torque management pgm. I think the defuel hurts the 0-60 more than the power curve.


At 1/3 or more throttle or more the power is noticeable at any speed/rpm, but it really comes on at 1700 or so. Passing on backroads is amazingly easy but you could probably say this about any tuner making 80-100HP.


Shift quality WAS crappy at first when using significant throttle, sometimes very jerky, but after 100+ miles it's pretty much like it was before. Trans couldn't seem to keep up if you nailed it, but OK now. I still need to run the alli in T/H a little more to finish up the "education".


If you drive it like a granny the only thing you notice is the torque pushing you more on shifts. At highway speeds you can nudge the throttle and bump it up 5-10MPH without really trying.


Off-idle doesn't seem any different. I agree with JK, it's pretty docile at low throttle. I haven't tried to power-brake it to spool the turbo, but based on the torque curve I don't think it will take much to get a good holeshot.


If you were to chart the acceleration curve I don't think it would be quite as linear as the stock chart would be - there are distinct "bumps" as you drop into the next gear and the torque comes into play - but either way the truck is a lot quicker than it was before.


Sorry for rambling but you had to ask!


Fred G

Fred,


That is what I was looking for! Thanks.

One thing about the Six-Gun that I didn't have with the Bullydog or Hypertech is when you're accelerating about 1/4-1/3 throttle, you get a nice push in your back after it shifts from the torque. The others were more linear in their torque feel. Like Fred G said, you can really feel the torque pushing you on shifts. It makes your passengers think that if you DID really get on it, that it would tear the truck in two. Hee Hee.

I guess the Banks box isn't so safe afterall, since low rpm tq is the absolute hardest thing on an automatic transmission. In a few months when we start seeing failed trannys from the safe power levels of the Banks box I wonder what they will say then.


P.S. John did you have time to see if the proper egt install makes any difference?