I am running a co pilot now I just dont like the way it shifts. It's very inconsistent. how about kennedys TCM .
Just wanting To improve my track times. Thanks Jason

The new generation Co-pilot is said to be much better and those who have had the old one rave about the new one.

That said, McRat's results with the Kennedy TCM speak for themselves. Plus you have a spare TCM...

The Kennedy TCM is half the price of a co pilot, however, it does not raise line psi for more holding power like the co pilot does. Also, you will have some explaining to do if you want warranty work done on your aftermarket trans if something fails because the Kennedy TCM might get blamed for the failure. I would get your co pilot updated to the newest version first if it is the old version.

If you just care about track times I would stick with the co pilot you have and put $$$ twards other things to drop ET. I thought the co pilot was fairly inconsistent and didnt realy like the way it shifted driving around town but it did well shifting at WOT......didnt realy seem inconsistent there? If you dont like the way the co pilot feels I dont see you liking the way a kennedy tcm feels. Some report they drive em on the street etc but I wouldnt.....

you could easily blame a copilot on a failure as well if the manufacture wants to take that route.

If you dont like the way the co pilot feels I dont see you liking the way a kennedy tcm feels. Some report they drive em on the street etc but I wouldnt.....

The only people who don't like it don't have it...

If it was a co pilot problem that broke your trans, you could call ATS and have them investigate the claim. They are more than willing to look into those issues. Kennedy can't do that. Kennedy does not build transmissions and would not know what to look for.

Another thing....if you don't like how the co pilot shifts on the street....just turn it off from the comfort of your cab...no monkey farting around switching TCM's.

The only people who don't like it don't have it...


Hey that's what they say about TTS! ;) :muahaha:

If it was a co pilot problem that broke your trans, you could call ATS and have them investigate the claim. They are more than willing to look into those issues. Kennedy can't do that. Kennedy does not build transmissions and would not know what to look for.

Another thing....if you don't like how the co pilot shifts on the street....just turn it off from the comfort of your cab...no monkey farting around switching TCM's.

ats is not going to fix a suncoast trans. i think you under estimate kennedy.

Just try to take McRat's TCM's away from him. Or Brandon's or...

Just FYI. Kennedys TCM is I believe at $500 and the update for a copilot is at $300. YOU MUST have an old copilot for that swap!!! I am still waiting to get my upgrade working yet!!! L8TR PS would like to try a Kennedy TCM or the new EFI TCM mod.

Is there any problems running the KD TCM with a co-pilot installed but off?

Remember I drove around with one of your TCM's John? At the track I wouldnt have a problem with it. On the street day in and day out it would personaly grate on my nerves. Some people(like brandon) drive it on the street though(others only use it at the track;) )

There are better ways to spend your $$$ that will drop your ET down more than ditching your co pilot for a kennedy TCM. Not saying kennedys tcm is bad or dosnt work.....just for your application I would look elsewere IMO.

What does the Kennedy TCM actually do? Not being sarcastic I just don't know what is changed vs. stock...

I have the old CoPilot and like the way it works on the strip but it can be annoying on the street, particularly at part-throttle acceleration. I've heard the new CoPilot addresses this.

Doug

Remember I drove around with one of your TCM's John? At the track I wouldnt have a problem with it. On the street day in and day out it would personaly grate on my nerves. Some people(like brandon) drive it on the street though(others only use it at the track;) )

There are better ways to spend your $$$ that will drop your ET down more than ditching your co pilot for a kennedy TCM. Not saying kennedys tcm is bad or dosnt work.....just for your application I would look elsewere IMO.

Yes BUT REMEMBER you drove BRIEFLY with a TCM that was later learned to have an irregularity in the program. Also with a VA box that would not allow over rev. These things take time to learn. They have no (or limited) history/memory of adaptive strategies as they start out fresh.

Ask the guys who use them and they sure as hell will not give them up...

The TCM Kennedy sells would not stay in my truck as a daily driver. I know several others with the same feeling that own and use them at the track. On the track, it seems to get it done on a couple trucks. I haven't been able to produce their results but also haven't tested it enough to conclusively decide I want to get rid of it.

Not sure about the updated co-pilot, but my kennedy TCM shifts great at the track. I've logged the rpm drop on shifts on different tunes many times, and it is very consistant.

That being said I only use it at the track. I can drive to the track with a stock tune, then install the tcm(about 2min.) and load a killer 12 sec. tune, and the truck shifts perfect. No learning, no flaring.

I like this system for racing very much.

John, is there something you are missunderstanding here? Maybe I'm not explaining myself well? I didnt say anything about its completely crappy shifting and the fact that the best I could muster was a mid 14 with it. I realize that most of the ****ty shifting it exhibited at the track was becasue the big VA acted like poo not the TCM being junk. I said that daily driving it would grate on my nerves. Its few "quirks" I could probably learn to live with but the fact that its stuck in a quasi TH mode would drive me up a tree driving it daily. Some people say they dont mind it but I am saying personaly I wouldnt drive your TCM on a daily basis, WTF is so hard to understand about me saying I wouldnt drive it on the street daily? I never said anything negative about its track performance other than saying that for the guy asking the question that for the $$$ spent he could spend it better to see a better gain at the track.

Agreed, mine won't ever come off the truck and I don't worry about fiddling with a co-pilot. Mine is always on and ready to go.

I also agree that an opinion formed after a few track passes and maybe 10 minutes of street time does not hold much value compared to others actual track results or my experience with it driving it daily for over a year.

Sure it is subjective and everyone likes a different feel in a trans but the KD Race TCM does make a very nice daily driver once it adapts to your truck and still delivers at the track. Better shifting, lower times, lower costs, proven results. What's not to like? :confused:

And additionally, Suncoast has never given me an inch of trouble with the TCM. In fact they have been nothing but supportive in making sure what I want out of a transmission maximizes the results gained by running this TCM. Joe and team are top notch when it comes to working with their customers to find improvements. :ro)

I tested the "old" CoPilot vs. the Kennedy TCM back to back under controlled conditions, and while the CoPilot gets good marks for improving shifts, the Kennedy TCM consistantly shows a bigger drop in Elapsed Times.

I run a KTCM in both trucks, and both show a .15 drop in ET's over a stock TCM.

It depends on how serious you are about ET's. If you are trying to get the best times, right now the KTCM is the way to go.

When I first installed my co pilot it took me all of 30 seconds to realize I didnt want to drive it day in and out with it set to kill ;)

Whats not to like? I didnt like the converter being locked and i didnt like what it did to the shiftpoints. At the track it would be fine......on the street it didnt take me 10 minutes to figure out I wouldnt like it day in and out.....it took me all of 20 seconds.

Not taking a shot at your testing pat. Please dont take it this way. All I'm saying is there seems to be a huge inconsistency out there among what people see at the track in terms of the trans. Remember the good old TH vrs non TH debate? Some report a tenth with TH on.....some say no gain....some say they run faster in normal mode. Some say they cut 2 tenths with a co pilot, some say they see little gain on fuel.

I am curious how the KTCM would affect your times compared to a co pilot though.....both same shiftpoints? Both Lock the converter up about the same time right? Both have a pretty firm shift. I mean I know that the trans isnt acting the exact same way buut......I've seen the time differences between a crappy feeling shifting trans and one thats rocking em off and while SOTP says there is a huge difference time slip says otherwise. Just dont see how there is much ET to be had either way with em if they feel pretty similar? You have any ideas pat?

Agreed, mine won't ever come off the truck and I don't worry about fiddling with a co-pilot. Mine is always on and ready to go.

I also agree that an opinion formed after a few track passes and maybe 10 minutes of street time does not hold much value compared to others actual track results or my experience with it driving it daily for over a year.

Sure it is subjective and everyone likes a different feel in a trans but the KD Race TCM does make a very nice daily driver once it adapts to your truck and still delivers at the track. Better shifting, lower times, lower costs, proven results. What's not to like? :confused:

And additionally, Suncoast has never given me an inch of trouble with the TCM. In fact they have been nothing but supportive in making sure what I want out of a transmission maximizes the results gained by running this TCM. Joe and team are top notch when it comes to working with their customers to find improvements. :ro)

Brandon, if the TCM adapts to your truck to a point that you can stand driving it daily (I personally would hate driving in tow-haul every day all day) does it need a pass or two down the track to "race" shift again? You're the only owner of this TCM that I know (and I know of at least 6) that drives it daily. All others refuse to drive it on the street both for it's manners and so that it doesn't "unlearn" the "race" shifting.

PS - I paid retail for the KTCM's, and if it did not perform, I would have reported the results as well. John Kennedy took a big risk selling me one, because he knew that if my truck didn't go quicker, I'd report the truth about it. :D

Not taking a shot at your testing pat. Please dont take it this way. All I'm saying is there seems to be a huge inconsistency out there among what people see at the track in terms of the trans. Remember the good old TH vrs non TH debate? Some report a tenth with TH on.....some say no gain....some say they run faster in normal mode. Some say they cut 2 tenths with a co pilot, some say they see little gain on fuel.

I am curious how the KTCM would affect your times compared to a co pilot though.....both same shiftpoints? Both Lock the converter up about the same time right? Both have a pretty firm shift. I mean I know that the trans isnt acting the exact same way buut......I've seen the time differences between a crappy feeling shifting trans and one thats rocking em off and while SOTP says there is a huge difference time slip says otherwise. Just dont see how there is much ET to be had either way with em if they feel pretty similar? You have any ideas pat?

More than anything else, the KTCM does it because it doesn't require any learning. The first pass you run clicks it off.

I like Trippins new updated CoPilot. I just ordered one for my truck.

My new copilot rocks:ro)

Brandon, if the TCM adapts to your truck to a point that you can stand driving it daily (I personally would hate driving in tow-haul every day all day) does it need a pass or two down the track to "race" shift again? You're the only owner of this TCM that I know (and I know of at least 6) that drives it daily. All others refuse to drive it on the street both for it's manners and so that it doesn't "unlearn" the "race" shifting.

Mine does not seem to be affected by the learning, it is possible that it does pick up a bit near the end of the day as I do usually run 10 plus passes when I go if not more.

For instance when I did my first ever 11 second pass in my truck I did a fuel only pass at 12.9. I then did a nitrous pass at 11.92 and backed it up with a following pass of 11.97. The shifting feels identical between the passes with no extra pauses or anything goofy on the nitrous power.

When I first got the TCM the first few days were definitely different on the shifts. If a person was not expecting it I could see how you could form a greatly different opinion of the TCM compared to how mine now drives. Mine is smooth, fast and consistent. I guess it was fortunate that I wanted to do some long term testing on the unit rather than form an expert opinion in 20 seconds.

All I am trying to do here is represent my long term findings and show how the unit has worked for me.

Moderators vs. The Kennedy Camp.......

Let me ask another thing. When upgrading the Co-pilot do you have to change the wiring harness or just the box?

Moderators vs. The Kennedy Camp.......


Hey I'm posting here too,what did I do? :o: Sucks to be profiled! :D

Let me ask another thing. When upgrading the Co-pilot do you have to change the wiring harness or just the box?

Harness

If a person was not expecting it I could see how you could form a greatly different opinion of the TCM compared to how mine now drives. Mine is smooth, fast and consistent. I guess it was fortunate that I wanted to do some long term testing on the unit rather than form an expert opinion in 20 seconds.

All I am trying to do here is represent my long term findings and show how the unit has worked for me.

:think: Is there something difficult to grasp here? I said I wouldnt like being stuck in a quasi TH mode day in and out. It dosnt take very long and it dosnt take being an "expert" to figure out what you do or dont like. You say you like it in a daily driving situation, good for you, different strokes as they say.......

Nope, I grasp your motives about the TCM perfectly, thanks.

Moderators vs. The Kennedy Camp.......

:rolleyes: Cumon George..... Seems like the only people with differences of oppinions are John, Brandon, and me. I dont see any "groups" here.

And if there is some big group battle here going on that I'm missing.....what dog do you have in this fight? Too bad that the only time you seem to post is to stir ****. Pretty sad becasue you have a ton of info and all the members could benifit from your knowledge:(

How about them Dodgers?

Nope, I grasp your motives about the TCM perfectly, thanks.

motives:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

I missed were you answered the guys question about if there was ET to be had by switching from the co pilot he has now to the KTCM?

I still say that if you use Mcrats testing as your baseline. That you can drop more ET with the money it would cost you for the KTCM if you put that $$$ twards other things.

Harness


That su su su su su su suss sucks. :o:

How about them Dodgers?

Is that a new breed of sheep?):h

motives:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

I missed were you answered the guys question about if there was ET to be had by switching from the co pilot he has now to the KTCM?

I still say that if you use Mcrats testing as your baseline. That you can drop more ET with the money it would cost you for the KTCM if you put that $$$ twards other things.

I also feel that the kennedy TCM improves times and prolongs the life of the tranny(by not having to relearn).

Rat, this guy is running a LLY. I don't think you have experience with a LLY problems. This TCM works for what he orginally posted.

I also paid reg. price without any discount for my opinions

Is that a new breed of sheep?):h

You Mods shut down the O/H thread so now it's left up to the trans guys to start some sh1t. Kinda get the blood flowin.):h

I posted about my copilot issue on another thread here. Everyone was saying just plug and play the new upgrade. Where is the info stating a new harness is needed??? I hope when my harness arrives today that it is part of the upgrade cost!!! Now that it is almost snowing out-----I still can't test this damn thing!!!! lol

So If I were to have the existing co-pilot upgraded they would also send me a harness. Is this correct? Is this the internal wiring harness?

Moderators vs. The Kennedy Camp.......

We can always count on George for the information filled, unbiased posts :D

I've done nothing in this thread but express my opinion and indicated it was based on limited experience. My opinion indicated only that I wouldn't daily drive it, like most that use the TCM. It also indicated that I was unable to reproduce Pat's results of shaving time off a 1/4 mile pass. He's the only one to my knowledge that has ever posted back to back before and after testing with the TCM. Everything else I recall reading about the TCM only indicates it shaves time off ET but I haven't seen any hard before and after numbers without any other changes.

For the record I've owned one of the TCM's Kennedy sells (bought it at full price since that seems to be a big deal) since shortly after Brandon let me ride in his truck at Thunder in Muncie 2 years ago. I put over 3,000 miles on it in my LB7 and while the shifting did settle down it never settled enough to my liking. I did not see improvements at the track with it but I only ever tested with the Kennedy VA which had it's own problems. Since than I've had it on my LLY for approximately 100 miles and 2 quarter mile passes. Based on that limited LLY experience it hasn't gone back in. I don't feel like I've given it a fair shot though in the LLY and based on Pat and Rob's reports I plan to work with it a bit more before drawing my own conclusions.

I haven't done back to back tests, but have around 30-40 1/4 mile passes with it and somewhere around 70-90 passes without it. I would not go back to using a reg. tcm at the track.

I hope for all us LLY guys that the new co-pilot works. That would be a great option.

Will I buy one? most likely not(if someone wants to send me one for testing, I'd sure run it:D ). I don't do any street racing(not any need because I go to the track almost every weekend, and besides, I usually have the kids), so this option works for me.

I'm out,
Rob

Does the new co-pilot cause overheating? I heard it screws up the air flow and the stack somehow...Maybe there's a baffle or cooling mod for it coming...):h

Harness

Well you do have to change a couple wires on the harness but it's not too difficult. You can upgrade without a new harness, but if your not looking to change any wires then you would need to replace the harness. It's pretty much changing two pin locations.

I always seem to forget about your LLY guys lil problems.....thanks for reminding me how much the LLY sucks Rob :joke: ):h

:o: I never did realy think that it would make a difference if it was a LLY or LB7 :o: Maybe there is tons of ET to be had on a LLY. I dont know honestly.

were there any monkeys in the bed of trucks while testing):h

Aw Guys, I had went 4 WHOLE hours without the dreaded "O/H word" sneeking back in to my life.):h Can we get it "bleeped" out??:)

sorry had to take a powk.mooms the word here.:thumb:

Well you do have to change a couple wires on the harness but it's not too difficult. You can upgrade without a new harness, but if your not looking to change any wires then you would need to replace the harness. It's pretty much changing two pin locations.

That's good to hear!

Mine is in my cubby and I dread having to reroute and or take it out. :o:

Can you elaborate a lil on the pins at the tranny connector or at the box? Adding a couple pins or adding a couple wires running along side of the existing harness wouldn't be so bad either.

Tanks! :)

Aw Guys, I had went 4 WHOLE hours without the dreaded "O/H word" sneeking back in to my life.):h Can we get it "bleeped" out??:)

Rick
I'm not sure but I may be OVERHEATING. :eek: ):h ):h ):h

This reminds me of the good ol' days when all of the fire was in the Tranny section. WOOHOO

Last trip to the track my truck went 13.14, 13.12, 13.11 with a SC-III and a Co-Pilot on kill.........original version.

I am not sure I want to spend $300 on an update that is just a reflash........:rolleyes:

If I thought I could gain a 10th or two then it might be worth the $300, but so far I can't justify the upgrade.......:eek:

Last trip to the track my truck went 13.14, 13.12, 13.11 with e SC-III and a Co-Pilot on kill.........original version.

I am not sure I want to spend $300 on an update that is just a reflash........:rolleyes:

If I thought I could gain a 10th or two then it might be worth the $300, but so far I can't justify the upgrade.......:eek:

Well we didn't update the co-pilot for the racers actually, we did it more for the folks that wanted to be able to drive around with it on and not worry about shifts that knock their head against the seat.

So the new Co-Pilot was designed to be more refined all around, not just click off fast shifts...............it already does that :thumb:

Well we didn't update the co-pilot for the racers actually, we did it more for the folks that wanted to be able to drive around with it on and not worry about shifts that knock their head against the seat.

So the new Co-Pilot was designed to be more refined all around, not just click off fast shifts...............it already does that :thumb:

My SC-III runs just fine without the Co-Pilot turned on for street use and shifts just fine for my liking. No jerky shifts.

Maybe it's the tuning.........:D

Guess I'll bank that $300 then since it won't net me any more consistancy at the track.

Thanks for explaining that I won't gain anything racing just around town driving.

T:cool: NY

Will I buy one? most likely not(if someone wants to send me one for testing, I'd sure run it:D ). Rob

I've sent you enough crap! You're not getting my co pilot too!

FYI...Jeremy moss dropped .3 of a 12.6 best without the co pilot to net a 12.3 best ET with his co pilot on all on #2 only...all the same day on the same truck with the same tune and the same (ugly) driver.

The co pilot adds line psi and "should add holding power"---The Kennedy TCM does not do this.

I once read some expert advice regarding Allison tuning from some well known members of this forum and it went something like....
Having the converter clutch come on at low speeds causes too slow of a pump speed. This is not good.


Since I have not seen what EFI lets you change Vs what I can change in the code my statements were a general caution. If you have the TCC locked at too low of input shaft speed you can damage the front pump as well as the TCC clutch.


So how does the Kennedy TCM avoid the above conditions? Does the Kennedy TCM have instant TCC lockup in 2nd through 4th gears?

How does the co pilot add psi under the above circumstances if the mechanical pump is not able to supply fluid properly at low RPM w/ converter locked?

I've sent you enough crap! You're not getting my co pilot too!

How does the co pilot add psi under the above circumstances if the mechanical pump is not able to supply fluid properly at low RPM w/ converter locked?

I don't want your crap, only the good stuff:D

I'm also curious how much the co-pilot increases pressure, any tests done on line pressure? I might look into it if there is a decent pressure difference.

So, going back to my earlier question, what does the Kennedy TCM do to improve shifting? Shift earlier at WOT? Faster shifts? For anyone who's experienced quicker ET's with it in, what did it do differently?

Has anyone run it AND the CoPilot? Do they conflict?

Doug

Man I'm getting a headache trying to follow this thread. I run an "old co-pilot" I guess, I had it since early 2004. It took me forever to learn how to use it. I think I asked about everyone I ever ran into about the correct way to use it. I even asked Kennedy at last summer's pull-off in Montana. To John's credit he didn't try to sell me one of his TCM on the spot. I keep it on all the time now. As was said earlier, you don't want to be sipping your coffee or putting on your lip stick :eek: when it shifts at partial throttle. My questions are similiar to the ones already asked and maybe I missed it.
1) Can you run a Kennedy TCM with the co-pilot turned off?
2) Shift points.. It seems like my truck shifts way too fast out of first gear, it does it in what seems like micro seconds at WOT. Is that what it should be doing or not?
3) If you have the full blown tranny either Suncoast or ATS does the added
pressure of the co-pilot make any real difference?

I love my ATS tranny, but I have had an issue or two with the co-pilot. One time it just quit shifting. Started out at a light and it just acted like it was in neutral. Turned off the co-pilot and everything was fine. A couple of times towing it seemd like it would almost lock the rear wheels on a shift from first to second. These were not full throttle shifts.

So, going back to my earlier question, what does the Kennedy TCM do to improve shifting? Shift earlier at WOT? Faster shifts? For anyone who's experienced quicker ET's with it in, what did it do differently?

Has anyone run it AND the CoPilot? Do they conflict?

Doug

You could pull half the TCM wires off it and still have it work because it isn't looking for much feedback like our TCMs do. It is not very capable of adaptive learning.

If I could fry that stupid brain in the TCM and make it shift like cars and trucks used to shift---like an old Turbo 400----that would be t*ts!!! It's too damn smart!!!! No one likes a smartass computer!!! lol By the way--I have been chatting with ATS on my copilot upgrade and I got em' stumped!!! Evidently I have one of the earliest original Copilots and harness and we can't get the darn new one to work!! Don't have an answer on what is going to happen next---but I will let you know!! Patience young jedi warrior, Patience.

I've had a copilot for about a year. Bought from and installed by Mike L. From what i can tell it dropped my fuel runs about .2 but i changed the nos setup at the same time so i have to accurate data for that. it shifts fast and hard at the track which works great for me. on the street i leave it OFF 100% of the time.

Also it doesn't work for me sled pulling. i've tried it a couple times and it seems to cause the tranny to want to down shift more at the big end of the track.

Wade- if one only uses it for drag racing is there any benefit to upgrading? not looking to throw money out the window and it shifts perfect all the time anyways.

Here s a quote from Wade earlier in the thread Nick.

Well we didn't update the co-pilot for the racers actually, we did it more for the folks that wanted to be able to drive around with it on and not worry about shifts that knock their head against the seat.

So the new Co-Pilot was designed to be more refined all around, not just click off fast shifts...............it already does that :thumb:

So, going back to my earlier question, what does the Kennedy TCM do to improve shifting? Shift earlier at WOT? Faster shifts? For anyone who's experienced quicker ET's with it in, what did it do differently?

Has anyone run it AND the CoPilot? Do they conflict?

Doug I run both and have not had an issue with them conflicting. I also Drive daily with the kennedy race tcm. It shifts beautifuly after you learn it down. I also don't run my copilot unless I'm at the track.

I've had a copilot for about a year. Bought from and installed by Mike L. From what i can tell it dropped my fuel runs about .2 but i changed the nos setup at the same time so i have to accurate data for that. it shifts fast and hard at the track which works great for me. on the street i leave it OFF 100% of the time.

Also it doesn't work for me sled pulling. i've tried it a couple times and it seems to cause the tranny to want to down shift more at the big end of the track.

Wade- if one only uses it for drag racing is there any benefit to upgrading? not looking to throw money out the window and it shifts perfect all the time anyways.

I would say it wouldn't be worth your money if you are using it just for drag racing. It was designed for the guys that wanna be able to use it all the time with out the TCM backing the pressure's off over time.

I will be installing my new ATS CoPilot in the am. I also have some new stuff I will be testing. Be interesting to see if they play nice. I do not like changing TCMs just to make my truck streetable.