http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/biodiesel.html

I am just about ready to make my first batch...Just using mason jars, but 5g paint cans are going to be next! (That is if I can use plastic for the mixing of everything...)


Anyone want to run it in their truck before I do? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

I am seriously ready to try this.


In another post somebody mentioned that BioDiesel is/will be available in Cleveland (of all places). When it's ready, I think I'll stop on down and give it a try.


I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but why hasn't B100 really taken off? If given the choice between a gallon of Diesel and and a gallon of B100 BioDiesel at the same price, I would be buying B100 with a smile.

1. The car manufacturers are a little afraid of it - afraid that they will get warranty claims that are fuel related; For example, clogged fuel filters (you should change them after first tank of b100 due to solvent effect of b100 breaking a bunch of sh*t loose in the fuel system). Even if a small percentage of the claims are mis-diagnosed as fuel pumps or injectors, it would be alot of $$$ out of GMs pocket.


2. Acidity of B100 is making auto manufacturers lean toward b5.


3. The u.s. government is subsidizing the biodiesel industry in order to get production up and running - basically, you and I are paying to set up production facilities by providing a buck and half per gallon to the biodiesel manufacturers. Need economies of scale to happen - high production leads to lower cost. I can buy soy biodiesel locally for $2.40 a gallon (b100) - without the government subsidy it would be $4 to $4.50 per gallon...


Chevy approves use of B5 - but B5 isn't really biodiesel, from a standards standpoint, it is dino diesel with an additive; Add anything more than 5% bio and the biodiesel ASTM spec applies (cetane of 50 ,etc).


- jeff

Ya, I dont think that I would ever put more than 2 gallons in the Duramax at a time.


Probably no more than one gallon with the TDI.


I may run the old Volvo on a much higher mix if I can make sure that the fuel lines are alright, and all.


I would run more on the tractor as well. Ill just have to see!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Looks like an opportunity for filter companies!


Seriously, I like the idea behind BioDiesel and plan to learn more about it. For example, I wasn't aware of the acidity issue with B100.


Now, if the govt was serious about BioDiesel, I think we would be well along in our adoption process. It is amazing what tax incentives will do to people's perception of a product.

I have been running B20 in the truck since about 2000miles--I am at 12000 miles. That works out to be around 5 gallons for a 25 gallon tank.


My research indicates at B20--there are no issues--my expierence is that I suffer about 0.5mpg--if that versus 100 petro diesel. I also performed oil analysis that indicated fuel dilution--but after the third sample--it went away--it could have been a bad sample--or the truck was breakin in--who knows. There has been some concern about fuel dilution with biodiesel in the literature.


The main issue for me was lubricity--which is just as damaging as dirty fuel. I found an article by Catapillar (I think) that showed the improvement in wear with different levels of biodiesel blends. It noted that for California fuel--only at B20 and above was there a measured improvement in wear. For the non-california fuel--improvements in wear occured at lower blend levels.


Since California has about half the sulfur content as the rest of country--biodiesel seem like the answer for me to improve lubricity. I run a nictane kit for the dirty fuel


I found my supplier from Biodiesel.org website--I just checked the site--and in about 5months--there has been an increase in suppliers/people selling it in Los Angeles/Ventura/San Diego area--Mainly B20. It seems to be catching on.


As a side note: I had AVlube test my sample B20--and it meets ASTM 975--which is the spec for our trucks--Keep in mind there a probably some 100% petro stations out there not meeting ASTM 975. I buy from the supplier I tested exclusively.


I just changed my OEM filter last night with 5K miles (not the CAT filter) and cut her open. It looked brand new--with some small light brown discoloration. Now--some of it is due to the CAT--but also some it is due to fuel itself--it is cleaner(assuming you have a good supplier)


Now for B100--I am a bit scared. It seems to eat up rubber hoses and you take a bigger hit in fuel economy--but before I run it--I better replace all the rubber hoses with Vitron hoses--but the Vitron hoses are damn expensive. I heard that the quick disconnect hoses have Vitron O--rings--hopefully that is true.


Finally--the cold temperature performance of biodiesel is poor--it clouds at a much higher temperature--and that will depend on the type of biodiesel you get--soy--rapseed--recycled. Also--be careful about water--it soaks it up like a sponge. This is where you need to check you supplier. My sample read 140 ppm water--typical peto diesel number are 30-60ppm. The level of water is ok--but note it is higher.


One final note: I cannot smoke the people who cut me off as well as when I had 100% petro diesel.


I hope more people try it and report what they have expierenced.


Ron

Thanks for the info.


Do you have a pic of your plant? What are your batch sizes? Where are you getting your chemicals?


I dont think I would ever try anything over b10 on the Duramax, but in the Volvo and the tractor I would like to run a richer mix of Biodiesel...

Mannytranny,


Sorry--I only buy the stuff--I do not make it. The manager of the fuel lot where I do buy is named Mike Rohrer at ITL fuels in Cudahy.


He might be able to help--since they do a lot of biodiesel blending for different customers.


I hope that helps a little.


Ron

Hey Ron,


Just curious about the fuel test results on the b20...


What was the cetane in your b20?


btw, I found a number of presentations on CARBs website from the biodiesel orgs - I'll post links - gives characteristics of different blends.


The reason I am asking about the measured cetane in your b20 is that the results shown on the carb website show a 3-4 point gain in cetane - if you start with u.s. fuel at 40 - you don't get to new biodiesel spec cetane of 47...


- jeff


Edited by: dmax lover

Here is presentation where I found good info on "why b5?" from oem standpoint and acidity/warranty concerns from oems...


http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/diesel/altdiesel/r_mccormick2.pdf


& more reading material..


http://www.enginemanufacturers.org/admin/library/upload/297.pdf


http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/diesel/altdiesel/v_duggal2.pdf


http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/diesel/altdiesel/s_howell1.pdf


http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/diesel/altdiesel/s_howell2.pdf





- jeff


Edited by: dmax lover

Jeff,


The cetane came out to 49.9--say 50. This is measured per ASTM 975 method--not sure if that means anything.


I need to ask my supplier if he is using the 15ppm diesel #2--some of your material suggest it is already out there. That may be why you get a higher cetane because you are not starting out with the same #2 diesel.


I found interesting note in the first reference you posted about OEM concerns about B20--but no hard data?? Did I miss something.


Some of my research was based upon University studies on indirect injected dodge CTD'd that were run on B20 and B100 for thousands of miles--then the engines torn apart. No problems found. That study was to try to answer some of the same OEM concerns I saw stated but not backed up with measurements/results.


I wish GM would do some tests--I feel at B20 we are ok--but not 100% sure.


Ron

Thanks for the cetane numbers - sounds good and my seat of the pants feeling is mine is about 50 - sure is quiet running this stuff.


I think the OEMs won't spend a dime on testing until the government tells them they have to... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif Some of the stuff thrown out by the engine mfgrs rep seemed a little off - I thought injector coking would happen with over-additization but not by using biodiesel - this is what stanadyne has said benefit of biodiesel is...


- jeff


Edited by: dmax lover

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/443_biodieseltry.jpg


This is the second try...Im still fune tuning the lye to methanol mix...


This is after 3 hours of settling...Maybe after a wash, it would vlear up...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif

Mannytranny,


Just a thought--if you are going to splash blend your homebrew with #2D--in whatever mixes (B10, B20 etc)--you may want to send a sample to George at AVLube. I believe the cost is $60.00 without the microbe check.


This way you can check water content and the overall condition of your mix prior to using. Key is the water--this would give you an idea on your process and at the same will give you confidence in using the resultant product.


The best of luck to you.


Ron

Ya, ill probably have it sampeled as soon as I can get a reliable oil source. With this batch, I just got some out of the bottom of a container that caught my eye in an alley.


The restaraunt is kinda slimy, and I would want to have a chat with the owner before I haul off and make more with their oils.


I would love to get my hands on In and Outs oil. All canola, and apparently, thats good stuff.


I let this batch settle down again for 24 hours, and with a little heat (~90*), it clears up nicely. Get it down to 70 or so, and it clouds again.


The folks over at the TDI club are walking me through this one...


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

Cool - with the way the fuel prices are going, I wonder when it will be cheaper to head to the grocery store and buy a few big bottles of canola oil and make your own!!!


I wonder what it will look like after you filter it? Will the cloudiness be "filtered out"? Are you like a proud papa with your first baby? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


- jeff


Edited by: dmax lover

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=715476&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=all&vc=1


The cool thing is that after it has sat, it has cleared 95%. I am going to wait it out and let the methanol settle before adding more.


Now I just want a clear 7-10g tank with a tap in the bottom to do it all in. BIG batches...


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

Heres a pic of it when clear... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/D81_clear2.jpg


Kinda a bad pic, but it gives an idea...

MannyTranny,


Any updates?

yes, acually....


I had a momentary lapse of sense, and thought that warming my bio by the microwave would boil off any small amounts of methanol/water left in the oil...


Put it in for 20 seconds, and kept a VERY close eye on it. Got to about 18 seconds, and went off like a small bomb. Kinda popped like an egg. No flames or anything, but the microwave was filled with about 1/2 of my little can there. Let what remained sit for a day, and that stuff cleared right up. Clearer than it was before. Oddly enough...Ill mix it and run it with this next batch.


Anyway, I snagged another gallon + of cooking oil, and made a 2 liter batch tonite. Ill run (in the old Volvo) it after I give it a week to settle. It all went smoothly. Takes a while to get the oil filtered (I just use a paper towel in a strainer). But after that, it is relatively fast.


Im working on a system, then moving to larger quanti****.


So far, so good. No injuries, so Im happy.


Ill snap a pic of it tomorrow. It is settling very nicely. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

Great work! I'm taking notes.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/E59_2liter.jpg


Here she is. Been settling for about 15 hours. Getting clearer.


Im gonna run this one.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/898_2clear2.jpg


Here she is after 3 days of settling/evaporating with the lid off. Temps are right around 90*.


PERFECT! I cant want to run it tomorrow...

Sa-weet! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif





- jeffEdited by: dmax lover

http://www.uidaho.edu/bae/biodiesel/


http://www.biodiesel.org/


I talked to the head Dr. at the University of Idaho for over a hour (being an Alumni has it perks I guess). All about Biodiesel. His words were that it would be crazy to not use Bio in some form with gas prices like they are today.


He has a Dmax and runs B50 in the summer and B20 in the winter. Now realize he has the ability to get really high quality ethonal and filters and such....but get this...He doesn't use them. He makes it in a 25 gallon drum in his greenhouse.....I asked him what to do with the glycerin? He said if I don't like my neighbors to poor it on thier lawn and watch him mow it 4 times a week....lol

After another spill, I have made a 5g processor...


Turned a water jug upside down, and put a coupler and tap in the bottom. Filled in the gap with Jb weld. I hope it holds...


I am suprised that more people arent doing it.


So easy.


I didnt know that glycerine works as a fertilizer...N, P or K?

And if your a Combat Engineer you can easily whip up a bit of TNT with it......Now I am gonna have that AC/DC song in my head all day....I'M DYNOMITE!

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wacko.gif

SO how did it run in the Volvo?


I am in search of some parts for my 20 gallon mix master.....


I am going to use a electric trolling motor to mix mine....lol

I failed to use the proper type of container, and I developed a leak. Had to mix it all back up again when i moved it from tank to tank, and now the settle process starts all over again...


In the meantime, I got a 5g processor and stand all set up. For 7 bucks. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif This plastic had a number of 7, so I hope it holds up.....Sealed the gap inbetween the jug and valve with JB weld...


Seriously, in your meeting with the University dude, did he say what the main thing was that is in glycerine that makes stuff grow? Nitrogen, Phos., or Potassium?

He did not say what the main product of the glycerin is. I posted a link to the university website. Write him a email, he is aware that I was going to post this on this board for all to see.


I talked to him at the engineering expo.


I am still gathering parts. Although I have a source for all the WVO that I can handle not but two blocks from my house here on the AFB.


I did ask him about filtering it before hand. He said that he uses a fine mesh screen and that is it. I read you are using a paper towel as well, not sure if that is really needed.


I also asked him for tips on pulling the glycerin off or getting the fuel off without to much mix. He built a funnel with a tap in the bottom and attached that as the bottom of his mixing tank. Just opens the valve until the glycerin is done coming out. He spent years (he has been running this stuff since the 70's if I remember correctly) just pulling it off with a syphon. worked well he said and whatever biodiesel he was not able to pull off just went into the garden with the glycerin......it is non toxic. The NBB (national Biodiesel Board) has a bit of info on it's toxticity and effects.


There is also a strap on tank heater. Latches on and works like a oil pan heater. While during the middle of the summer this is not going to be needed in the fall and spring and certainly the winter this is a good idea. He said to get everything to 100 degree's in the tank and it should only require about 30 minutes of mixing. Keeping it at 100 degree's will also help everything settle. He makes his personal batch like every Tuesday and fills up every Friday. He uses 100% WVO (Waste Veggie Oil aka French Fry Oil)


He is a great guy to talk to and knows his shiz. They are have a direct working relationship to JR Simplot (aka largest french fry manufacturer in the world) the research that I looked at was just amazing.


Even having a 2% mix so greatly enhances the lubricity of our low sulfer diesel that it is astounding. Check out the test's they will freak you out. The best thing about it is that unlike a addative if ester is mixed above 2% it has nothing but continued benfits. Even Stadadyne recognizes this. So even if you cannot run B20 or B50 you can surely run B2 and benefit from the lubricity.


Personally I will be running B50 in the summer months and B20 in the spring and fall. I will run B2 in the dead of winter until I figure a way to install a arctic package on the D max. If I lived in Arizona I would run B50 year round.


I did also take a look at a CTD and a VW TDI that run off of B100. What they do is this. They start the vehicle on #2 Petro Diesel and run it for 5-10 minutes. They then hit a switch to a Aux tank that is B100. They run it like that all day. about 5-10 minutes before they are going to shut if off they switch back to the #2 petroDiesel.


The CTD has over 100k on this system......Something to think about for you southern boys.

Very intersting. Thanks.


Sounds like you have a great futire setup there. I just made a 5g processor out of a water gug turned upside down. Its conical, and I JB welded a tap in the bottom. I hope it holds.


I need to learn how to do titrations, to find out exactly how much lye is needed, and then Im good to go. WVO shoudnt be too hard to come by around here...At least I hope. A pump and filter is my last needed item.


Did you happen to ask him how he gets the water out of his WVO? Does he worry about it? Ive found that it can make a mess of otherwise good BD. Makes soap that turned to spider webs in the BD...GRRR...Apparently, a 10m filter will take care of this though...


The TDI and Cummins that run BD: The main bonus to BD is that you dont have to run diesel through the system before and after usage. Were you talking about SVO? Ive never heard of doing that with biodiesel.


Thanks

Here she is...


Any bets on wether or not a recycle rating of 7 will do the trick? Ive got about 2L of stuff that looks good enough to run, but Im still chicken. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/CFA_processor.jpg

I meant SVO not B100 sorry.


Also there is a way to make BD without titration. First you esterfy then transesterfy.


Acid then Base. here is a link to directions. Requires a couple chemicals to be purchased but it helps keep the soap formation down.


Just put the BD in there. I have 4 tanks of B20 from the pump under my belt and have no complaints or worries. And it snowed here this morning. Dmax fired right up.


http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html


That link has more info than you know what to do with......lol

http://www.americanplasticscouncil.org/s_apc/sec.asp?TRACKID=&CID=313&DID=931


Looks to me like a 7 code would work if it has polypropylene in it otherwise a number 5 would be better IMO.

Specifically here is the two stage method that I was talking about.


http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html


You seem to have the basics down why not give it a try?


I wish that dude that runs B100 would chime back in. I wonder how he is making his? His website doesn't give any info.

Ah yes, Ive read all those links a few times. The esterfication > transesterfication method involves using sulfuric acid first. Its the "Fool proof" method.


I just used my little "processor" to try a gallon. I kept draining out glycerine for the first few hours. That should help keep the plastic problem down to a minimum...


I put some in the Volvo, but it was only .5L. Ill do more later, but I noticed some floating stuff in the bottom. Just a tad. I need to let it all settle for longer, or do a wash.


Thanks for the links, VERY helpful to all newbies. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Manny,


Can you guess how much this is costing you to make per gallon. As a comparison--I just contacted my B20 Biodiesel supplier who is quoting me 100 gallons for $150.00 for B100. I almost fell out of my seat. I am doubling checking the numbers.


Ron

Well,


It was too good--the price was incorrectly quoted. Rats. I think the price is around $2.80 a gallon. They have not given me the exact numbers yet.


I am very interested in what your cost is--not counting money spent on the setup.


Ron

Manny,


Can you guess how much this is costing you to make per gallon. As a comparison--I just contacted my B20 Biodiesel supplier who is quoting me 100 gallons for $150.00 for B100. I almost fell out of my seat. I am doubling checking the numbers.


Ron





You should have bought a years supply....

Methanol costs 3.40/gallon. I can get it cheaper in a 55g drum, but thats not going to happen any time soon.....


So...


The reaction needs about a 1:4.5 methanol to VWO ratio.


Lye costs me about 5 bucks for 500 grams. Ill estimate here...Lets say 6 grams/liter of oil.


So, for a gallon, it would take 74 cents of methanol, and 20 cents (check my math on that one) for lye per gallon.


So, right around a buck a gallon. I can definetly get both of those items cheaper if I can find a good way to step it up.


I use no heat, so theres no cost there. Maybe water for washing, but thats nothing.


But there is the cost to get the oil, and time spent, but I dont mind. Kinda fun...

Check this out......


http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=447609751&f=159605551&m=43860274 7&p=1

Dosent sound like too hot of an idea on these modern diesels...


Interesting, though...I wonder if it can be very used oil...

The 5g jug will leak after a batch or two.


I got one good gallon out of it, but its shot now.


Ill have to buy a 15g conical bottom tank...