Hello,


I just recieved the new 6- gun brochure in the mail. It has some interesting info. and claims. I think some simple testing will help us all get to the bottom of this.


" Consider that when you see the astronomical power and torque claims making the rounds: Banks has thouroughly tested the competitions tuners, and their numbers are not what they claim!"


Banks has tried to convinced us that dyno methods are flawed and inaccurate. My next question would then be, what about real life performance. Banks post a 0-60 time of 7.9 seconds unloaded and 19.1 seconds with an extra 15000 pounds. The exact same stats from other tuners/chips would tell us who was really making more power. Although Banks does not print 1/4 mile times I have good reason to believe they can produce in the 15.25-16 second range unloaded. Any comparisons?


" While watching the boost gauge and not paying attention to the speedometer my girlfriend exclaimed loudly that I was at 100 MPH, with half a pedal left."


The above quote was from a customer with a 8000LB dually duramax. It did not give the year or any other details.


Does the 6-gun remove the rev limiter? My truck falls down at 96MPH. Maybe duallys did not have rev limiters?





I bring this info forward because I am still unsure of the six gun-power levels. I understand the 6-gun monitors tranny slip/convertor lock up very accurately. I also understand the six gun is at a low enough power level that tranny problems are not likely to accure. I also understand the six- gun will pass the California sniffer test ( emissions).


I am still very unsure as to the real world seat of the pants feeling or lack of that I will receive from the six-gun? Time slips do not lie. I have tons of EDGE data with no load. Unfortunetly I have no data from EDGE when a heavy load is applied. Edited by: Bronco

Banks has tried to convinced us that dyno methods are flawed and inaccurate. My next question would then be, what about real life performance. Banks post a 0-60 time of 7.9 seconds unloaded and 19.1 seconds with an extra 15000 pounds. The exact same stats from other tuners/chips would tell us who was really making more power. Although Banks does not print 1/4 mile times I have good reason to believe they can produce in the 15.25-16 second range. Any comparisons?


My CC/DA will run 0-60 in ~6.0-6.2 secs with the 125 Edge. Loaded, I have no idea... Probably not too much different from Banks, as EGTs will have a big impact on what you can put down (yes, the Attitude will back down accordingly)...

Bronco,


I've run my Six-Gun w/speedloader 0-60 a dozen times. On level 6, it's from 6.9-7.1. The 1/4 mile on level 6 was from 15.25-15.45. This is on a extended cab short box unloaded. We've read all of the dyno numbers and know that Banks does their testing differently from all others. We also know that the Six-Gun equals a 90-100hp box from the others in a drag race. You know what would REALLY be interesting? Hooking up a 10k-15k lb trailer behind these trucks with different modules and running them in the 1/4-mile. Now you've got the load Banks is talking about in their testing. If the EDGE and similiar products STILL outpull the Six-Gun when loaded, then I guess we all know what the final answer is. Oh, and the claim about the girlfriend looking down and seeing 100mph on the speedo-that made me laugh. The speedlimiter on GM trucks is officially clocked at 97mph from GM. The banks DOES NOT bypass that speedlimiter. Must have little donuts on that big one-ton to throw the speedo off.

Just a quick note regarding making comparisons on acceleration times; compare the improvements in percentage. For instance, the Six-Gun literature shows improvements from 22% up to 38%, with the loaded vehicle posting better gains. When running the Edge or any other product, do the same type of percentage improvement comparison and then compare those percentages to the Six-Gun. This eliminates differences in individual vehicle weights, road conditions, etc.

Every time I see one of these Banks Six-Gun threads it takes me back to being a kid .


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/2B3_clrpreview.png


Watching the explanation on performance theroy from Banks is like a magic show.I still like magic today ,thanks for the entertainment.Whats the percentage the magician never yanks a rabbit out of the hat with or with out a loaded arm with watches ?


On with the show.Edited by: Reggie

Banks post a 0-60 time of 7.9 seconds unloaded and 19.1 seconds with an extra 15000 pounds. The exact same stats from other tuners/chips would tell us who was really making more power. Although Banks does not print 1/4 mile times I have good reason to believe they can produce in the 15.25-16 second range unloaded. Any comparisons?


Mine went from 8.4sec stock to 5.3 sec (a 42% gain) with 0psi off idle launch. I think we all know by now that the Banks claims are the most far fetched claims ever seen for the Duramax. The real question is will they make it right with the Race Box.

GOOD POINT REGGIE.....I saw this thread and hoped they(banks) relented and took a real look at their advertising........of course I was wrong again....they went the other way. Peter you seem to be rather intelligent are these ads your doing or someone else forcing your hand?........ http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

The new race box from Banks better leave a dent in your forehead from the garage door opener flying off the visor, turn a stock Allison transmission into shredded beef, and leave a coating of piston material all over the exhaust valves, or it won’t be enough to please their critics.

SD, I thought the same as you when I saw this post. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

Huck

The new race box from Banks better leave a dent in your forehead from the garage door opener flying off the visor, turn a stock Allison transmission into shredded beef, and leave a coating of piston material all over the exhaust valves, or it won’t be enough to please their critics.

SD, I thought the same as you when I saw this post. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

Huck








OMG that is funny .... How about roll the paint right up on the hood too ....





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

The new race box from Banks better leave a dent in your forehead from the garage door opener flying off the visor, turn a stock Allison transmission into shredded beef, and leave a coating of piston material all over the exhaust valves, or it won’t be enough to please their critics.

SD, I thought the same as you when I saw this post. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

Huck








OMG that is funny .... How about roll the paint right up on the hood too ....





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif





When my LINE-X peels off from the acceleration, then I'd be happy http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif





Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gifNY

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/7A2_6840103.jpg

BANK'S race box adhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

the girl friend was driving this time Edited by: sdaver

oh my god, you guys really crack me up, that is some of the funniest stuff I have ever read!!!

That's some serious acceleration. Yikes. C'mon racebox.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

Reggie,
I’m not sure what seems like magic to you, for me its just high school math, so I guess it kind of takes me back to being a kid too.

Amric,
Speaking of math, let’s check yours. To evaluate a percentage improvement, you take the before number (8.4 sec), subtract the after number (5.3 sec), divide by the before number and multiply by 100: ((8.4-5.3)/8.4)*100=36.9%. This is not quite the 42% that you came up with, but it is still respectable. Assuming that this is an unloaded 0-60 mph time that you are talking about, it beats the Six-Gun at 22%. This does not surprise me for the same reason that other boxes (Edge, Quad) post high power numbers on acceleration dynos. These boxes start to fuel aggressively with minimal to moderate throttle application. The byproducts of doing so are black smoke and excessive emissions. The Six-Gun for the Duramax is an emissions legal device. The Race box will fuel more aggressively at lighter throttle application and will not be emissions legal. I am not unaccepting of the idea that a competitor's box may post better numbers than ours under some of the test conditions that have been used by people in this forum, but I also know that under full load conditions, the Six-Gun outperforms the others, and it does it within emissions limitations and without high EGT or excessive fuel pressure.

Sdaver,
I’m not sure what you mean when you ask if someone is forcing my hand. One of my tasks as Director of Technical Communications is to review data that is generated by our Engineering Test Group and make sure that it is accurate before it is used by the Marketing Department for advertising. My background includes ample hands-on testing, so I know what is involved in gathering the data. I don’t understand why everyone seems so upset by my original post. All I was suggesting was that people make the comparisons based on percentage improvement rather than on the actual times, because the actual times will always vary from vehicle to vehicle and depending on all conditions when the test was performed. Comparing a percentage improvement at least will minimize most of those factors. Amric is the only one that I have seen showing legitimate before and after numbers in a comparison test. The best possible way to run a test like this would be to have one truck with multiple boxes all tested on the same day and in the same location.

I am not unaccepting of the idea that a competitor's box may post better numbers than ours under some of the test conditions that have been used by people in this forum, but I also know that under full load conditions, the Six-Gun outperforms the others, and it does it within emissions limitations and without high EGT or excessive fuel pressure.



Peter,


I think what you just said is the problem. Your advertising states that the six-gun is the most powerful module for the Duramax on the market, NOT the most powerful module under full load conditions with emission, EGT or fuel pressure limitations.


You may get those other details from the rest of your ad copy but the main line says:


The Six-Gun Tuner offers the highest proven horsepower and torque—up to +128 hp and +345 lb-ft of ground-chewing power, and with Speed-Loader, up to +155 hp and +385 lb-ft (with recommended Six-Gun Bundle airflow improvements).


That line is a far cry different from what you said. If your ad said that Banks offers the highest proven horsepower while maintaining safe EGT, emissions and fuel pressure I think everyone would be much less prone to attack.


I really do like my exhaust kit, it is top notch. (tip is too http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif ). I just think that the ad writers are making it easy for folks to slam you. Edited by: BMDMAX

I've ran both the edge and the six gun/speed loader. I ran the edge for about a month and was really suprised with the power and fuel gains. The banks has let me down in both departments. I had one theory, the banks power falls off @1900 rpms I'm told. Alot of my driving around 70 mph which puts me on the downward curve in the power. Then I read how the throttle responce is slower to come in on the banks and it rang a bell that two would cause the mileage to suffer. All right all you smart guys out there am I warm or not even in the ball park?

hey peter
punch a 4.71 0-60 in your calculator(it will give you a number to compete with on the race box). Brandon hit the nail on the head and ditto on the exhaust.......


peter wrote: "The best possible way to run a test like this would be to have one truck with multiple boxes all tested on the same day and in the same location."

Its been done.......had a chance to do it again in LA but your truck was a no show








Edited by: sdaver

Everybody has a point here, including PeterT. Anybody have a Banks Six-Gun w/speedloader already installed on their truck and have access to a 1/4 mile of straight road? One could take the same truck the same day with the Banks and make a couple of runs with a 10-15000lb trailer hooked behind. After, hook up the bypass to the Six-Gun. Then take a couple of programmers like the Bullydog, Hypertech and Quad and run them through the paces-even try an Edge if time permits. This will finally put to rest about the way the Six-Gun works. Maybe we'll be surprised by the performance of the Banks, maybe not. It sure would be interesting. I don't think we are going to get anywhere until someone has the truck/time/programmers/access to do this. Just my thought...

Peter


Or should I say David Blaine


Here is some basic math.Seen a buddy with a Max run a 219 stock.He proceeded to put a Edge box on rated at 145 RWHP. He smacked down a 403. Now if I'm doing the math correctly that's a gain of 184 RWHP and a gain of 84%.


I'll garranty if you went for a ride with your stopwatch you could be the poster child in their wet pants add.


Know any card tricks?

My original post was intended to highlight two points in BANKS latest brochure. First Banks states that there competitors are over estimating there power gains. Second, the brochure states a quote from a customer who is going 100MPH and is only at half throttle.


In an effort to prove/disprove BANKS claims of there competitors lying about output, I suggested some simple real life 0-60 MPH and 1/4 mile times both loaded and unloaded.


I think it only fair to assume the BANKS times I posted earlyer were with a stock transmission and only by stomping on the throttle with no powerbraking and high boost launches. Street tires and 2wd for that matter. Banks post a 0-60 time of 7.9 seconds. I would be curious to see other competitors times in the exact same scenario. Street tires, 2wd, no stack, (exaust, air filter, wastegate allowed) and by stomping the throttle only.


If you want to look at it the other way around you could say any kind of launch you want. If I am correct the BANKS is capable of 0-60 in 7 seconds and a 1/4 mile of 15.25 seconds. Edge is capable of 0-60 in 6-6.5 seconds and 1/4 miles of 14.25 second range.


It appears the EDGE is 1 second faster in a basically stock unloaded form. I am not sure what levels the EDGE was ran at and what the smoke level was? Obviously there is a large margin between California Emissions legal and huge black smoke. There has to be a happy medium.


I am still curious as to how other devices would stack up to the six-gun in a loaded condition. A trailer with 7500LBS would tell us all alot. Make a full quarter mile pass and record highest EGT.


The second issue is with the 100 MPH speed. To my knowledge there is no way a person could go over the 95-97 MPH range with only the addition of a BANKS SIX GUN. Unless going down a steep grade. Another device would have to be incorparated.


I personally run a BANKS MONSTER EXAUST and it's quality and fit is excellent. I am sure the six-gun is just as well designed.


The advertising is obviously the area of contention here. To the untrained eye BANKS ads would be very misleading indeed.


BTW the earlier cartoons made me laugh. I kept thinking of that cartoon posted at the PLACE around Christmas, of the dog helping the other dog out of the trap. It all depends on your perspective. In regards to BANKS advertising I tend to think of the helping dog pushing forward rather than pulling backwards. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif


Edited by: Bronco

Bronco, 6.2secs unloaded mashing the pedal, for a CC. Bets stock is ~9.7 -> 36%. Funny, that's pretty close to Amric's numbers...


I still think loaded you're not going to find a lot of difference, because of EGTs & slip potential (w/ EDGE) on a stock tranny...


Any way you cut it, their 6Gun does NOT walk the talk!!!

I thought after my latest PM with Colin that Banks had a legitimate interest in discussing this box with me, and how it acted on my truck along with possibly sending some sample programming to evaluate.


I was handed off to a party (forget the name) and then handed off to Bob M. So far I haven't heard boo about anything so apparently my results are typical or not worth looking into...

Boo !!!!!





Hey what do I know but if a Six gun wants to weigh in and run my Edge Loaded or not I'm game ... It's rated lower then there's ,but I'll take my chances ...





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

<font size="5">Boo !!!!!</font>


<font size="5"></font>*


<font size="2">Hey what do I know but if a Six gun wants to weigh in and run my Edge Loaded or not I'm game ... It's rated lower then there's ,but I'll take my chances ...</font>


<font size="2"></font>*


<font size="2">Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif</font>but mac what about the egts and the smoke, you could be castrated by the serria club. Are you really willing to take those chances...............bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.......Ill cover the bet, lets say a grandhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif Edited by: sdaver

It's my understanding that the 6gun/speedloader is set at the factory to begin backing out the power at an EGT of 1200 degrees. It would be interesting to run the Edge/Attitude at the same EGT temperature limit and see which module makes more power.


I'm not saying 1200 is too low/high/whatever, just that it would be another variable that you could eliminate. Obviously if you setup the attitude to allow 1350-1400 you can make more power before defuel occurs, other things like exhaust being equal.


The other difference does appear to be in the power curve itself. It certainly looks like the 6gun/SL tapers off at higher RPM's and my guess is this was done to ensure stock drivetrain longevity. In a perfect world we could take two trucks, setup one with Banks and one with Edge, run them both hard for 20,000 miles and see which one shows less wear and tear in the drivetrain. My guess is that Banks would probably win this test because of the drivetrain-friendly power curve.


I agree that their ads are a little misleading............


Fred G

Peter T.


You claim the 6gun is emissions legal, would you please supply your CARB EO for it as CARB. when called has no record of it.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif Also the one you gave away at the LA dyno day had no CARB EO labeling.

uh oh

If I remember right, I think the back-down on power begins just shy of 1400 degrees for the Six-Gun. It's been awhile since I've read the literature, so hopefully I'm not blowing smoke.


Hey, maybe that's the problem. The Six-Gun ALWAYS thinks the EGT's are above 1400 degrees. Hey, I'm trying.

Diesel Tech,
If you will look closely at what I said, you will see that I did not say that the Six-Gun was “emissions legal”, nor did I say that it has a CARB E.O…. yet. What I said was, “… under full load conditions, the Six-Gun outperforms the others, and it does it within emissions limitations…” I was very careful about my wording because we have not been assigned an E.O. for the product yet. We have run emissions tests, passed the tests, submitted an application for an E.O., the application and the test results have been accepted by CARB, and now we are waiting for the paperwork to be completed. You know as well as I do that waiting for the paperwork to be completed by CARB can take a while. If you are not sure about any of this, you are free to call Richard M. at CARB, I’m sure you have his number. Up until now, and until we receive our E.O., the Six-Gun is sold as a device that is not legal for on-highway use in California. As soon as our E.O. number is issued, I will be sure to let you know.

Fred G and Scotty Seleen,
The set point for EGT control is 1350. The control algorithim is a PID controller, which will allow for the ramp rate to be considered. In other words, the faster that the control point is approached, the more aggressively fuel will be removed. This helps to make the control function smooth and subtle. If your EGT is not reaching 1350, then fuel delivery is not being limited by the temperature limiting feature of the Six-Gun.

To everyone,
It is clear that there is disagreement about our advertising claims. I support those claims based on the FULL LOAD testing that we do here at Banks. Many of you disagree with these claims based on results from ACCELERATION testing. I also understand this perspective and can appreciate that some people are more impressed with those types of results. My purpose in participating in these forums is to provide factual information about the design and function of Banks products. I know for a fact that there are many who read these forums (and some that have left) that are pleased with the performance of their Banks products, because I receive Private Messages from them on occasion. I also know that there are thousands more people who have never participated in these forums that are driving their trucks with Six-Guns and are thrilled with them. Bronco’s original question in this thread was about the acceleration performance of the Six-Gun vs. other products. <

PeterT,


The Six-Gun seems to have been VERY carefully thought out and designed before released to the public. Quality of the connections and so forth are top notch. The exhaust system from Banks is also the best I've seen. How you can keep your cool in these threads is beyond me. Even I chime in once in a while about the Six-Gun, just a few posts back, actually. It's kind of in good fun. But, I KNOW what you are talking about, and I KNOW you are careful at wording your statements. Every time, you've come back and pointed out what was actually stated. Kudos to you for always responding to these threads AND being correct. I know I'll get flak for this, but hats off to you and your company. I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of the Racebox. The only way I won't purchase this is if it doesn't bypass the speedlimiter. Even you know what a hang-up I have over that damn thing.

PeterT,


Just curious which manufactures products that you had X-Rayed in order to finally come out with something for the markethttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif.


Why do you not have speed limiter removed? Let me guess.... No one that make a plug in module for the Duramax that has one either.


Seems like you should have copied someone's downloader instead of the Edge Products Versionhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif. I will call Edge for You and see if they will have their Engineers hurry up and get it done.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ouch.gif


You might be able to sell some people on your smoke and mirrors but the people of this forum will not fall for it( with the Exception of Quad of course)


Like you pointed out on the Diesel Stop BANKS = COPYCATS.


You have my number if you need to get ahold of mehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif





Dennis

I agree with Scotty Seelen. I have been on both sides of the fence here. I do feel that Banks releases the highest quality products. I was very pleased with the fit and finish of my Banks exhaust, and would be very eager to use their race box should it prove to make more power than my current setup. I don't have a problem with the literature as I never buy a product based off manufacturers claims, b ut always consult test results from people on this forum and others. I only chime in now and again to help others on this forum that may be expecting 155hp gain at peak HP, and not understanding how this number was achieved.

Peter T.


The following is a quote from your post:


"The Six-Gun for the Duramax is an emissions legal device."


You and I both know it is not.


If it was an emissions legal device you would have a CARB EO and since you donot have one this is more of the bait and switch advertiseing that you are becomeing famous for! Why not just come out with the truth to start with and tell customers it makes 85 RwHp and is not the most powerful product on the market. The truth will be out soon enough and then you wouldn't be caught in all the lies.Edited by: Diesel Tech

Dennis Perry,
We have not x-rayed any Duramax product, only Ford, and yes, yours was one of the ones that we x-rayed. We did not do this because we wanted to copy anyone, we primarily did it because we could not understand the justification of the price of your product and others based on the performance that we witnessed during our testing. You are correct, we do not remove the speed limiter on the Duramax because our device is not a programmer… I think most people here have grasped that detail by now.

Diesel Tech,
I stand corrected. I went back and read my earlier post and I DID make the statement that the Six-Gun is an emissions legal device. I made that statement because from a strictly literal point of view, the Six-Gun passes all the necessary emissions tests. True, the E.O. has not been delivered yet, and until it is, the Six-Gun will continue to be sold as a not for on-highway use in California product. I apologize for my oversight.

To Everyone,
I recently responded to a post on the Ford site (thedieselstop.com) wherin I revealed some facts about some competitive products. Both Dennis Perry and Diesel Tech responded (rather harshly and defensively) to my comments and all three of us were edited. Apparently they have brought their gripes with me from that site over to this one.

Peter Treydte
Banks Power

This is gettin' ugly.

Peter T.


The only grip is that you cannot seem to tell the truth! Bank's has run and continues to run misleading advertiseing. You come to the internet sites and mislead customers and flatout lie about your claims. When questioned about the claims the excuses start, you jump from it's the most powerful device on the market, to a new excuse every time you are proven wrong. You then come out and call it the most powerful emission legal device. Then we prove it's not emissions legal! What your doing is bait and switch, plain and simple. You personally called all other manufactures HACKERS that donot know what there doing. My only reason for posting was to let the truth out. If you change your marketing garbage I would have no reason to continue to prove you wrong! It's not harsh nor defensive when you point out that Bank's marketing and marketing tacktics are flatout lies and misleading.


You had the chance to prove to everyone how good the 6 popper was at the LA dyno day. You called and asked if it's OK to bring 3 trucks and were told great bring them................. what did you show up with ZERO. So now were just keeping you honest!


EDIT: fixed some of my mispells, probley missed moreEdited by: Diesel Tech

PeterT,





Don't get me wrong I am honored you attempted to copy our 6.0L Instigator. I do appreciate your concern you have for the TS Performance pricing structure also but you should look at your own pricing and try and figure out how you are going to take advantage of future customers.


As far as the amount of parts it takes to make my product work.... Well it is called technology and if we get on that subject I am afraid you would not have any input and it would be a one sided conversation.


Remember that can of worms I told you that you opened????


On a final note: I told you to address me as Mr.Perry





Dennis


Edited by: Dennis Perry

PeterT and Collene,


I really enjoyed the conversation and I am sorry to hear that you won't be a sponsor at the TS Performance All Diesel Challengehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif.


I really look forward to good coversations like this in the futurehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif.





Dennis

I imagine the director of technical mis-communication also mis-spoke at the diesel stop forum.

Mr.Perry; I don`t know you from Adam, But I like the way you speak up.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif


I guess it is time to check out what you sell. I may have to buy from you! You seem to be a straight shooter! unlike the BB gunhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Mr.Perry; I don`t know you from Adam, But I like the way you speak up.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif


I guess it is time to check out what you sell. I may have to buy from you! You seem to be a straight shooter! unlike the BB gunhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif





Mr Perry sells great nitrous kits ..... mine came in last week http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

This thread reminds me of a pack of dogs tearing into a fox. Not that Banks doesn't set itself up for it by making claims of fairly eye-opening power gains without explaining the true nature of the numbers. Just the same I don't have much taste for the personal nastiness this thread is heir to.

One point Peter has raised repeatedly is the difference in the dyno testing methods they use compared to the acceleration tests that appear to be the standard for other boxes and chips. I would like to see the dyno charts for the other gizmos using the Banks methodology. I suspect that the Juice can hang right with or beat the Six Gun, but I'm not sure about the others. I tow with my truck. High peak torque numbers don't mean much to me if I have to spin the engine around 2400 rpm and up to get it. If the meat is down between 1600--2000 I'm much more interested.

TC

Can you guys take the cat fight elsewhere? My kids aren't as bad as you. Does every thread have to turn into an 8th grade shouting match? I gotta tell ya, I got my Edge/Attitude and ain't even in the market for another performance mod, but one things for sure......I'd buy the Banks just to know I didn't give my money to you two (I think you know who you are). Peter gets my vote just on the basis that he attempts to explain himself (even though he has to do it over and over again, some of you just don't get it) and his company's stance. If you don't like the advertising, tough! Why don't you apply for Bank's marketing jobs, and you can fix all their problems once you get your foot in the door. Judge not lest ye be judged, or something like that. BTW, I've done my judging, and you two are out!

I do have to say (and someone more search savvy could possibly verify) that I seem to recall Peter stating in another post about forthcoming Carb certification. May be wrong on this, but it sticks in the back of my head somewhere.





One other thing that I observed, and have not verified through repeat testing is that it SEEMS that the Banks base timing is something that my truck likes. IIRC, I had the best balancing, and best (less stinky) exhaust at idle when running it. Will try to revisit this later along with running downstep tests on various programs.





For now, I need to split as we'll be doing some testing/custom tuning on the big VA box as a potential means of doing a "stack" in one unit...





May pop back in if I can get my wireless on dyno PC to communicate today.

For now, I need to split as we'll be doing some testing/custom tuning on the big VA box as a potential means of doing a "stack" in one unit...





Well.....now your just teasing us....aren't ya!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

HD4fun,

Well put.

TC

One point Peter has raised repeatedly is the difference in the dyno testing methods they use compared to the acceleration tests that appear to be the standard for other boxes and chips. I would like to see the dyno charts for the other gizmos using the Banks methodology.
TC


It just so happens that a member on this board is going to do this exact testing for everyone. It will be preformed on a SuperFlow dyno and the results will be posted for all to see.

It just so happens that a member on this board is going to do this exact testing for everyone. It will be preformed on a SuperFlow dyno and the results will be posted for all to see.[/QUOTE]

Now that is information I'm looking forward to. Can't wait.

TC

Can you guys take the cat fight elsewhere? My kids aren't as bad as you. Does every thread have to turn into an 8th grade shouting match? I gotta tell ya, I got my Edge/Attitude and ain't even in the market for another performance mod, but one things for sure......I'd buy the Banks just to know I didn't give my money to you two (I think you know who you are). Peter gets my vote just on the basis that he attempts to explain himself (even though he has to do it over and over again, some of you just don't get it) and his company's stance. If you don't like the advertising, tough! Why don't you apply for Bank's marketing jobs, and you can fix all their problems once you get your foot in the door. Judge not lest ye be judged, or something like that. BTW, I've done my judging, and you two are out!








I have the Banks exhaust, and other then I would like it to be a little louder, I love it.


The box on the other hand does not perform as advertised, (I get this from those that have compared it with other boxes/programers)


I really don`t care what type of Dyno they use, When compared to other boxes, the BB gun comes up way short. And that`s the bottom line Real world power is what it`s all about, not a bunch of lies!


You have the right to spend your money how you want (As long as the wife lets youhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif) But unless the box performs close to the claimed numbers, I would not consider buying from them.


Banks claims super high torque down low in the rpm range. The dyno`s that I have seen comparing it with other boxes/programers show that it is producing lower torque numbers then other boxes. So how can it be the most powerful box for the Duramax?


It`s lies I tell you, just lies!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

I really don`t care what type of Dyno they use, When compared to other boxes, the BB gun comes up way short. And that`s the bottom line Real world power is what it`s all about, not a bunch of lies!


Absolutely agreed! This is so clear cut how can anyone be so confused as to be a banks apologist?

There are others in this forum that come here to learn, socialize, and don't need the kids games. On a previous cat fight I wrote that I don't need anyone to read graphs to me, I can interpret advertising wording. Someone chimed in and said that not everyone is like that do the insults continued to fly....that's pretty insulting.. For those attacking Banks, that's fine...I get the point, I read your posts. Can't you move on? Talk about being obsessive and argumentative. The moderator should shut this down...there are more than 5 people in this forum. This is the type of thing that will make or break a forum, especially a relatively new one. Moderators, remember there are hundreds of us who read these and the tone and quality of the thread should be up to our standards, not the four or five writing useless text.


Harry








Harry K.

For now, I need to split as we'll be doing some testing/custom tuning on the big VA box as a potential means of doing a "stack" in one unit...





Well.....now your just teasing us....aren't ya!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif








Ubet!





Incidentally, we brought the program up over 120 ft lbs, and 30-40HP so far! Based on the conditions, it is a TRUE 215HP program with about 450lb/ft TQ gain


The actual point of the session (continuing thru today) was to massage the lesser HP files a bit. So far, pretty darn good changes, and took out just a touch of timing to remove a rattly part...





Back to Banks,


I hope to get some additional cooling sourced soon and will then run the pull down tests as compared to several other programs. My main exhaust fan quit last night too!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif

For those attacking Banks, that's fine...I get the point, I read your posts. Can't you move on? Talk about being obsessive and argumentative.


No, I don't believe you get the point at all. These aren't attacks, rather these discussions are an opportunity for banks to look into the mirror and clean up their act. But more importantly, these discussions are relevant from the standpoint of those in the market to buy a good product are at risk of being screwed by unethical business practice. It's not as if banks doesn't have a history of this nonsense. In fact, they've been doing this crap for years!Edited by: Ray403Dmax

For now, I need to split as we'll be doing some testing/custom tuning on the big VA box as a potential means of doing a "stack" in one unit...





Well.....now your just teasing us....aren't ya!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif



Ubet!


Incidentally, we brought the program up over 120 ft lbs, and 30-40HP so far! Based on the conditions, it is a TRUE 215HP program with about 450lb/ft TQ gain





Gimme...Gimme....Gimme http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Guy.


when are you going to have a garage sale?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif I want to be the first one there.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif All them toys !http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Tongue.gif

As soon as I can match some East Coast numbers! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif


So far I'm just some weak Southern California truck with a driver that says DUDE alot! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gifEdited by: Trippin

There are others in this forum that come here to learn, socialize, and don't need the kids games. On a previous cat fight I wrote that I don't need anyone to read graphs to me, I can interpret advertising wording. Someone chimed in and said that not everyone is like that do the insults continued to fly....that's pretty insulting.. For those attacking Banks, that's fine...I get the point, I read your posts. Can't you move on? Talk about being obsessive and argumentative. The moderator should shut this down...there are more than 5 people in this forum. This is the type of thing that will make or break a forum, especially a relatively new one. Moderators, remember there are hundreds of us who read these and the tone and quality of the thread should be up to our standards, not the four or five writing useless text.


Harry








Harry K.





Harry, just as you have the right to express your opinion, others have the right to express their opinions. If you happen to disagree with it, you're welcome to click to somewhere else in the site, or the internet for that matter. It's a big www. It just surprises me that you don't seem to have any problems with blatantly misleading marketing hype, yet you take offense with those who try to expose it. It's kinda difficult to politely expose these tactics without coming off looking like you're attacking someone.


Based on some of the posts here, it looks like some people make decisions based on who responded and the general tone of their posts. Try ignoring the tone, and concentrate the technical content, the real point of the post.


Along those lines, lets here from all of those ecstatic 6 Gun customers. You know, the ones getting incredible hp while towing and great fuel mileage. That'show you keep a thread from looking like a slaughter.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

I believe the only way that Banks can save face is for someone to do this "pull-down" test on their Six-Gun. If those numbers match what they advertise, then we really can't say anything about their Six-Gun. It's just the way that they do their dyno numbers. Now, if it doesn't match the 155hp and 385tq that they claim, we have reason enough to be angry. I hope someone can do the pull down test soon on some of these boxes and programmers to see what gives. It would be interesting. So far, the only tests I've seen done are the accel tests. I still think that Banks is saying what they have seen for their Six-Gun on this test-but I also would like it proven.

Maybe I can twist Carbon04's arm and get him to leyt me do the test(s) on his truck Wednesday...

That would be excellant.

I bet it gets back to the whole "safe" thing. In a reverse test I wonder if the EGTs go through the roof on the Edge box even in lower levels.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif If so, Bank's just need to change their advertising as someone else has already suggested to "safest power".


C'mon Kennedy......Git "R" Done!Edited by: Trippin

I believe the only way that Banks can save face is for someone to do this "pull-down" test on their Six-Gun. If those numbers match what they advertise, then we really can't say anything about their Six-Gun. It's just the way that they do their dyno numbers. Now, if it doesn't match the 155hp and 385tq that they claim, we have reason enough to be angry. I hope someone can do the pull down test soon on some of these boxes and programmers to see what gives. It would be interesting. So far, the only tests I've seen done are the accel tests. I still think that Banks is saying what they have seen for their Six-Gun on this test-but I also would like it proven.


That would help, However; They claim to produce the most power PERIOD! That has already been proven to be a big lie.


Their antics may be fine for those that have never heard or nor used the Juice, Quad, Heck even the Predator, Not to mention many others. For 30 plus years they were able to get by with these lies, because most did not have anything to compare it too. Thank God for the internethttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

I gotta ask ....


Will the dyno testing procedure used ever be duplicated on the street ??


In other words can the Duramax be loaded to the extent to even bring the claimed HP and torque to useable force in towing let alone empty ??


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gifEdited by: Mackin

I think it would be about a 50/50 if it could be duplicated on the street. If the Duramax gets pulled down too much, it'll downshift, raising the rpms. I just want to see if someone can match their numbers doing the same testing procedure that they do. I just visited the Banks website. The dyno graphs for the Six-Gun for the 6.0L Ford and Dodge seem to be more online with competitors dyno charts.


Duramax best gain=155hp Duramax peak to peak=85hp


Ford 6.0L best gain=138hp Ford 6.0L peak to peak=115hp


Dodge best gain=125hp Doge peak to peak=103hp


You can see by the way others test their gains (peak to peak), the Duramax gains the least. The Ford and Dodge owners may be much happier with their Six-Guns.Edited by: Scotty Seelen

The original intent of this thread was an attempt to accomplish two things. First, poke fun at Banks advertising. I think we all accomplished that. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


Secondly, translate dyno numbers into real life performance gains. After comparing 0-60 times and 1/4 mile times I can honestly say that the EDGE is close to 1 second faster in an unloaded vehicle status. While the EDGE is one second quicker, it is producing more smoke, higher EGT's and possibly more transmission wear&amp;tear.


When comparing aftermarket power enhancing devices, a very comprehensive approach is required. Some devices(highest setting) do not even qualify to be used on stock transmission vehicles( limp mode, burned clutches) or on crowded public streets( 96.00$ excessive smoke ticket).


The highest power devices or at least highest power settings, should not even be compared to devices/settings that can be utilized on stock transmission equiped vehicles.


Dyno numbers should be backed up with real life time slips. 0-60 times and also 1/4 mile times, unloaded and partially loaded. What is 30-40 HP on a dyno if it only makes a 7000 Pound vehicle accelerate .1 second quicker in a 0-60 setting?


A corresponding EGT graph should also be provided. Not to say that high EGT's are the determining factor, some just choose not to run that hot.


A turbo speed reading would be nice as well, but that is not likely to happen.


The after market performance jungle is not always easy to navigate. A comprehensive approach is required.


One final note, if BANKS does release a "race" box, they will also need to release a larger intercooler or larger turbo with it as well, if they are going to stay with there moto of " more air, more fuel" !