This question is being asked not to get anyone's "personal" opinion of choosing one over the other...........it is being asked so that those of us looking to upgrade can get a side by side fact based comparison and a better analysis of the Hard Parts being used.


What does a Suncoast Level 5 use for parts and what does an ATS with co-pilot use. For those that do not want to decipher the two companies web page advertisements.


A comparision from an transmission expert would be ideal. Someone that has installed one of each.


What about the differences in the two converters if any, clutch materials being used are they the same or not ??? and is there an advantage using one or the other based solely on the hard parts.


I am not leaving out TTS and transgo........This info is for the guy looking at more than a shift kit/converter install and wants more than 450HP at the RW.


The 500 HP ++++++ crowd. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif





Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gifNYEdited by: GMC-2002-Dmax

With the Allison being the most expensive modification we can currently make to our trucks, this has become a rather sensitive subject for most of us. I look forward to hearing the details as well.

This is not going to happen. I happen to be a Suncoast dealer and consider Joe Webb a friend. I have been privy to some of his tech and would not disclose it to anyone unless Joe told me to do it. I would feel funny even if he told me to do it. I would likewise do the same for any person that i deal with. I will be doing a Suncoast Stage 3 update on my truck and will show pictures, a little tech, an honest opinion on the mod but no secrets. I would expect no less from an ATS dealer. TRIPPIN made his transmission builder wear a blindfold during his ATS install.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif Guy read the instructions to him and placed his hand on the parts. Oh boy, Guy is going to kick my but over this.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


mike

MIKE,


The only reason I asked the question is that this is an expesive Mod to do.........many members here are contemplating the upgrade.


There is, as you must know, quite a difference between the prices of these two kits or complete tranny's from the web site.


Suncoast costs quite a bit more.......why ????


If someone is looking at purchasing one of these either for local install as a drop in or just the hard parts they want to compare Apples to Apples.........price being a major factor as well as warranty terms.


No-one is........asking for any secrets.........just some simple facts from knowledgable builders.


Hopefully someone will come forward and let our membership know what the real deal is........


BTW..on another note....why upgrading from a single disk to a triple lock and going to a Suncoast Level 3 (http://www.suncoastconverters.com/gm/stage3.htm) ?


Exceeding that 450HP mark ? ? ? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gifNYEdited by: GMC-2002-Dmax

I've been wrestling with this same issue. Based on very solid advice, I'm thinking I may just go with an upgraded single disk converter and TransGo which, apparently, is more than enough for my current usage. But, then again, I would hate to do it more than once, and I am finding the power addicting, hmmm… how much was that hot juice upgrade? {grin}.

Having a better idea of exactly what each stage/combination does (other than advertising hype) would sure be useful to me...

Tony


First of all the secrets are no big deal. More clutches in either mod (i am keeping this down to Suncoast and ATS) I have seen what ATS does and i have seen what Suncoast does. I choose Suncoast for my truck and i am not saying anything bad about ATS. As far as horsepower? I have Diesel 5's nitros kit sitting in my shop, i will be installing it(i want to make all my mistakes on Davids truck before i do minehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif) Sorry David, just kiddinghttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif. There is a new computer sitting in Steves office at TTS with my name on it(been there for 4 months). I don't care about dyno nimbers, i want to see what my Duramax does at the strip then i am done and it becomes my daley driver. I love this truck.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


mike

Quad -> 1200


Juice -> 800


VA=>600


VA=>450


Gauges=>350


AFE=>250


Banks=>550


Predator=>400


Power Mods to date $4600 dollars,all useless .......


Many trips around the block ,wrecked it ....


Contemplating which tranny upgrade for months => Priceless ...





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif


Edited by: Mackin

Mack


There was never any contemplating on whose trans mod, only looking for time. Why don't you ask me whose program i will be using? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif


mike

As a user and a friend of Clints stuff at ATS, his have been great. Dont skimp on the T/C. Get the Triple lock, and be done with that part. Under power, even the 145H/J, you can cook the C1 pack with alot of burn outs and power breaking. With the Co-Pilot you have alot of control over the comfort of the shifts. With the mechanical and hydraulic setups, your pressure comes in at or near the end of your shift point. The Co-Pilot takes care of that. I've known Clint and used his trannys for more than a decade and a half, and I've never been disappointed. Super Diesel

As far as horsepower? I have Diesel 5's nitros kit sitting in my shop, i will be installing it(i want to make all my mistakes on Davids truck before i do minehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif)





http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gifEdited by: DIESEL 5

This is not going to happen. I happen to be a Suncoast dealer and consider Joe Webb a friend. I have been privy to some of his tech and would not disclose it to anyone unless Joe told me to do it. I would feel funny even if he told me to do it. I would likewise do the same for any person that i deal with. I will be doing a Suncoast Stage 3 update on my truck and will show pictures, a little tech, an honest opinion on the mod but no secrets. I would expect no less from an ATS dealer. TRIPPIN made his transmission builder wear a blindfold during his ATS install.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif Guy read the instructions to him and placed his hand on the parts. Oh boy, Guy is going to kick my but over this.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


mike





Remember Mike, the blindfold was for you to wear when you did the ATS install for me. I'm just sorry our schedules didn't let us hook up for that install. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif You would be the one guy that could have given us all an unbiased camparison between the Suncoast and the ATS.


By the way....How did that "Suncoast logo tattoo" heal up? Ok I hope! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif


Seriously...I have the utmost respect for Mikes work and really do wish that he could have seen the ATS stuff... in order to provide the community here with a much more informed analysis.

suncoast tranny many miles of banging still holding and shifting very crisp.how manyy big power hounds can say that about one trannyhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

Cant complain how the ATS has held up under my abuse. It's pretty constant (abuse that is). It's about time. I got really tired of replacing built trannys in my old Dodge 12V. Everything I've build heavy (which I like), has had alot of tranny problems. It gets old real fast. I'm glad these guys know what there doing (and doing it well) http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif. Super Diesel

here's video of the ATS upgrades in action

video of my 12.00@112.28 mph run (http://www.simpersupply.com/duramax/tomac1200.mpeg)
video of my 12.07@111.40 mph run (http://www.simpersupply.com/duramax/tomac1207.mpeg)

suncoast installed around 32k....84k to date.......updated to level five in November of 03 450 rwhp everyday...NO ISSUES. There are some special revisions for level 5 and they have to be performed "in-house" I think I made the right decision and are not faulting those with the ATS, However If I were to do it all again I would not change a thing. I probably have more miles on a suncoast than anybody. The level of service I received from SUNCOAST has been unequaled in this industry.

my original post:

Well lets get straight to it....I drove last Wednesday afternoon to Fort Walton Beech Florida
and Left my Truck with Joe At Suncoast Convertors. On Thursday and Friday they installed their triple disc torque convertor and clutch pack upgrade kit. Joe and I have had several conversations about this over the last few months and soon as the parts were available I decided to have mine done. Joe suggested that I have the power levels set to where I thought I would run on the performance end. So after a few calls to some diesel page friends I came up with a juice/pressure box combo that has yielded 420+ conservatively at the rear wheels. Needless to say this combo would limp my stock tranny at will. Joe and I drove my truck and noted the areas we felt it was slipping (third and fifth mostly). Then I drove their 03 3500 dually with the transmission upgrade and a hot juice/tts reflash combo for power. The transmisson was fabulous. It handled the additional power with ease.......no jerking no slamming NO LIMP!!! .....just smooth shifting....needless to say I was sold. I rented a truck and drove back to Tuscaloosa (4.5hrs)and could not hardly wait until Friday. Friday afternoon I picked up my truck and it was raining........It is not real easy to test a truck with that kind of power in the rain, in fact its impossible. So I drove very conservatively to Pensacola to meet my family down for the weekend. The truck shifted flawlessly(under a very conservative foot). Saturday yielded more rain. Joe performs a full computer reset of the transmission when upgrade is performed and several upshifts and down shift have to be performed to allow the tranny to learn the new power levels. Since the weather was not cooperating I just drove the truck moderately on Saturday. Sunday I left Pensacola early heading for Commerce Ga (385 miles). About 45 miles from Pensacola I hit dry pavement.........rolled into the throttle in fifth at 70 mph..... 30 pounds of boost (with the wastegate unblocked)and acceleration like never before. Not even a hint of slip. Slowed down and made a few runs at 75 % throttle... smooth shifting. It is really amazing how much slip the stock tranny has and how much more power you feel when the slip is gone. Later that day I arrived in Commerce dropped off a very valuble package and started the trip to Tuscaloosa(200 plus miles). Made a full power run getting on the interstate. Extremely fast acceleration smooth shifting and no limp or slippage. Monday I drove the truck all day in mixed highway and city situations. No bad side effects to report just smooth shifting. The tranny behaves very similar in normal driving to stock transmission with very slight firmer shift(which I like) and a more noticeable lockup in fifth which I refer to now as my new sixth gear. I now have close to 1000 miles on the tranny and its shifting great. I have the old clutch packs and some cool pictures of the triple lock convertor hope to post all soon dave

--------------------

The ony thing thats different now is it gets hammered daily now with 450+ and its been upgraded to the level 5 which was not availible originally

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif Edited by: sdaver

sdaver


Good post. I like the fact that the shifts are almost normal and only firm up under throttle. If people new how the A and B trim solenoids worked ( one is coming on while the other is going off and it's a very fine line) they would know a very firm shift or hard shift is a tie-up (two gears on because one has not released while the other is locking). That is the only way you get hard shifts out of the Allison. Allison wants 2 clutch packs on in every gear, thats the way they designed it. Wrong mod, and you have 3 clutch packs on. OOPS.


mike

sdaver


Good post. I like the fact that the shifts are almost normal and only firm up under throttle. If people new how the A and B trim solenoids worked ( one is coming on while the other is going off and it's a very fine line) they would know a very firm shift or hard shift is a tie-up (two gears on because one has not released while the other is locking). That is the only way you get hard shifts out of the Allison. Allison wants 2 clutch packs on in every gear, thats the way they designed it. Wrong mod, and you have 3 clutch packs on. OOPS.


mike

I guess this is why you question the Bullydog shift enhancer?

Since ATS and suncoast dont want to return my emails I am still pretty clueless on whats in whathttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif And since thier marketing hype really dosnt get into much other than it hold x%better than stock, bla bla bla....


So can anyone give clue as to what the differences are between the 2? And you cant get the suncoast in kit form in thier highest level right, only the stage 3 is available to the average joe? But you can get the ATS kit with converter/copilot and do the install yourself or have a regular shop or the like do the install?


I dont want a trany I want a kit for my trany, or have someone do the deal for me depending. But I wont buy a transmission from one of these places.


Mike Why did you decide on suncoast?


Anyone else why did you decide on what ever? I'm sure it was because you thought it was your best option but why did you think it was your best option?

Ratlover,


Unable to find any unanswered E-mails for last 60 days. System did have problems for a few days 2 weeks ago. Maybe then? www.torkin@arc.net (http://www.torkin@arc.net).


The Sun Coast Stage 3 is in KIT form. It provides you with a triple disc torque converter, Transgo Kit, boost modifier valve, C-1 single side pack with billet apply plate, 17 plate C-2 pack with Kolene steels & billet apply plate, 9 plate C-3 with Kolene, 11 plate C-4 with Kolene,sump filter and spin-on filter. There are some trucks sucessfully running this kit with 600+ RWHP, no hype just fact.


This kit is available to anyone. Requires approved credit card and shipping address.


Ther are additional modifications that do not lend themselves to KIT form, but are such that require in house modifications & machining. Unfortunatly we have to have hands on the trans to accomplish them


Hope this addresses your concerns


Smoop

smoop


Joe, glad you're spending more time here. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif I think it's great getting getting product and tech info right from the source.


mike

From my understanding, on the higher levels Suncoast does internal mechanical work to raise the pressures more and ATS raises and adjusts the pressures with the co-pilot. Thats why Suncoast stage 4 and 5 are in house only. Correct me if I am wrong.

What I would still love to see is a blow by blow comparison between the two. Seems like the approaches are identical in some areas, and dramatically different in others. What are the pros/cons of the differences? And ATS seems completely open about their mods, while SunCoast seems very secretive about their top level stuff, or at least that is my impression. Surely someone knows enough to contrast the two? Even if it's an ATS trans tech (or other) who has reviewed the SunCoast (I'm guessing they've dissected one) who gets the ball rolling. With the SunCoast secret squirl hush hush, I doubt more revelation than already posted will come from that quarter.


But the real bottom line is that it seems that nobody, not the dyno champs, the drag kings, nor the master pullers have been able to hurt either one of the full boat kits... So I guess it's a moot point after all...Edited by: BadDog

The Sun Coast Stage 3 is in KIT form. It provides you with a triple disc torque converter, Transgo Kit, boost modifier valve, C-1 single side pack with billet apply plate, 17 plate C-2 pack with Kolene steels & billet apply plate, 9 plate C-3 with Kolene, 11 plate C-4 with Kolene,sump filter and spin-on filter. There are some trucks successfully running this kit with 600+ RWHP, no hype just fact.


Can you give more information for those of us ignorant of the Allison details (even stock). For instance, how does this compare to stock? Number and type of clutches/steels, what is the importance of the billet apply plate, Kolene steels, and boost modifier?


Also, are the details of the in house stuff truly top secret, or just too hard to discuss in text? Can you give more info on these top level changes and benefits relative to the lower levels? What I (and the others I think) want is solid facts suitable for point by point comparison rather than ethereal marketing blurbs...

Thanks for getting back with me. Maybe my email belched?


So your saying the stage 3 should hold 600rwhp? The reason for needing the trans for the 4-5 makes sense.


I have a reg cab 2500HD 4x4 with soon to be sleeved tierods and 265's for tires. I want a trany to live with what I do and want to do. I plow snow but dont tow much if any, I drive my truck daily. I would like to take it to the strip a few times but I wont be racing it regularly and I wont be getting into truck pulling. I like to flog my truck on the street and most of my racing will be embarassing mustangs and the likehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif. I want to run a big box/stack and I would like to put my truck into the 12's. The 12's/less power is the only thing I will bend on if need be.


Does this sound like a possibility? What do I need trany/kit wise to live?

Some mods require precise machining and fitting. Transmissions differ in casting thicknesses in certain areas even though they should be identical and not all parts are the same size from batch to batch. On certain mods there is no set clearance because we don't know what tollerance the factory happened to set in a particular trans. Some parts are fit to finish (custom fit at the factory and a new OEM part from the manufacturer may not necessarily fit without modification). Certain valvebody modifications need to be flow tested or pressure tested on flow benches and solenoid dyno testers to make sure the pressure and lubrication are up to what is needed under extreme usage. These is just a few of the reasons why you can't build your own Stage 4 or 5. Stage 3 is a superduty kit that will hold most Allisons for what a lot of us here use them for and it will hold them very well.


mike

Thanks Mike, that's part of what I was asking for. So your saying that a big part of it is "blue-printing" the trans. Makes sense, and obviously requires equipment that a normal trans shop won't have (like the flow testing). But if I understand correctly, there are also top secret mods made by SunCoast that are not simply blue-printing to Allison/GM specs. Or is it just that they have a different spec/tollerance sheet than the published Allison information, and that's what they keep secret.


Sorry for all the questions, it's just that I've been hooked and researching the various trans options that are available. By no means will I be doing this myself, even though I hear that the Allison is "easy" (relative to most other trans) to install the kit.


[Edit] Also, does ATS truely make public all their info, or is there some of it you only get by going to their shop or getting the complete trans. Based on your description, I would guess that ATS is in the same boat with requiring hands-on work...Edited by: BadDog

BadDog


Call Joe Webb and talk to him ....


Telling you he added clutches here and there from me won't begin to explain the upgrade nearly as well as Joe can ...


I chose Suncoast for the simple fact of I want my tranny to "work" the way Allison intended it too just a lot beefier ,that it is .... No added electronics that may or may not fail .... Just hard parts to add holding capacity ,that's what really matters day in and day out as you use your truck for work or recreation ...


I'm happy and extremely satisfied with my decision to go with Suncoast ...


PM DieselDragon in about a week ,another soon to be happy customer ... Wait till he sees what he was missing ....





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

From my understanding, on the higher levels Suncoast does internal mechanical work to raise the pressures more and ATS raises and adjusts the pressures with the co-pilot. Thats why Suncoast stage 4 and 5 are in house only. Correct me if I am wrong.





Think you got that backwards.

From my understanding, on the higher levels Suncoast does internal mechanical work to raise the pressures more and ATS raises and adjusts the pressures with the co-pilot. Thats why Suncoast stage 4 and 5 are in house only. Correct me if I am wrong.





Think you got that backwards.





Sorry


I got that backwards. You are correct.


mikehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif

I chose Suncoast for the simple fact of I want my tranny to "work" the way Allison intended it too just a lot beefier ,that it is .... No added electronics that may or may not fail .... Just hard parts to add holding capacity ,that's what really matters day in and day out as you use your truck for work or recreation ...


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif





I agree with Mac to a point. I want my tranny to work as Allison intended it to as well. However, the Allison is designed to have adaptive shift patterns. So if we build it to shift crisp and hold back lots of power....how long before it learns and adapts the shift pattern back to what it wants?


What I do with my Co-Pilot is adjust the shift firmness to normal almost stock levels for daily driving and when it's time to play I can adjust it to be an animal with the push of a of button and then back again when I'm done. No resetting of tap cells or fast learn procedures to get it to do what I want. With the "speed delimiter" and "torque converter force locking" features of the Co-Pilot, it deserves some consideration.


Wouldn't it be cool if someone came out with a reflash tuner for the TCM?


In the end, talk to Joe Webb at Suncoast, and to Clint Cannon at ATS... gather information and make an informed choice. Good luck and let us know what you decide....... and why.


Lots of neat information can be found at http://atsdiesel.com/atsu/atsu.html

The trim solenoids control the shift feel. This is accomplished by having one shift solenoid control pressure to the clutch being applied while the other solenoid controls the clutch pressure being released.





That's stock ....





Guy wrote ,


What I do with my Co-Pilot is adjust the shift firmness to normal almost stock levels for daily driving and when it's time to play I can adjust it to be an animal with the push of a of button and then back again when I'm done. No resetting of tap cells or fast learn procedures to get it to do what I want.


How do you think that is being accomplished is one clutch coming on Now quicker then ??


I know I can trouble shoot if need be,my Allison with conventional tools ... For all tense and proposes it's stock .... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif


By tieing up the shifts electronically what is to gain for 99% of the Allison owners ??


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

The trim solenoids control the shift feel. This is accomplished by having one shift solenoid control pressure to the clutch being applied while the other solenoid controls the clutch pressure being released.





How do you think that is being accomplished is one clutch coming on Now quicker then ??


I know I can trouble shoot if need be,my Allison with conventional tools ... For all intensive purposes it's stock .... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif


By tieing up the shifts electronically what is to gain for 99% of the Allison owners ??


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif





Mac,


I don't really know the answers to your questions so without talking to ATS I'm going to guess. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif Please correct me where needed.


The trim solenoids when acitvated do nothing more than move a valve down a bore...which exposes pressure to different circuits in the the trans. (clutch packs etc) ...a spring below the valve serves to dampen the rate the valve moves relative to pressure applied to the different circuits as the valve moves down the bore.


Electronically control/boost the pressure being applied to these circuits and I assume we would then control the rate at which the shift occurs as well as the holding power of the clutch pack. Of course we also have to exhaust pressure out of one circuit as fast as we apply it to another. Unfortunately the TCM is always comparing these rates to a look up table to see if everything is ok and makes adjustments accordingly. So if we run increased pressure to these circuits all the time I would think the TCM will eventually adapt the shift rates to compensate. Controlling when that additional pressure is applied based on boost (Co-Pilot) is pretty cool. Also being able to just plain turn it off so the TCM doesn't adapt it back to stock is also pretty dang neat.


I don't know about the other 99% but for me I like the flexabilty the Co-Pilot offers. Sometimes I even vary the air pressure in my tires based on racing, highway driving or towing. So why not my trans? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif


As far as trouble shooting with conventional tools goes.......uh...I can't answer that one based on personal experience.......haven't had to any troubleshooting. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif But should the need arise, and based on abuse I'm sure it will....I think I could use the same tools you would. If I suspected the Co-Pilot to be the problem then unplugging it would eliminate it from the system...and

The copilot one of the reason I'm leaning ever more to the ATS side of things. Most of the time, I drive like the old man I'm becoming. Since the new wore off the juice, I generally go for firm acceleration and nothing to get excited about. But then when I want to "get in it" for whatever reason, like showing it off for my neighbor with the Dodge a few nights back, the Allison has forgotten how to shift under full power. I'm finding that I don't really care for the adaptive nature of the Allison, at least not stock. The ability to get it like I want it for every day driving in traffic, and then hit a button to get it like I want it when I'm playing, with no relearn BS... that looks very promising to me...

My only firsthand experience has been with the ATS. I've ridden in Suncoast equipped trucks as well as driving Eric's Transgo equipped truck.


I had another ATS equipped truck on the dyno Saturday. It matched my truck's previous runs pretty darn evenly box for box. Now with injectors in mine, it's another story. Brian has had better consistency with his ATS than I have. I have yet to find that sweet spot where it shift how I want it when I want it. Still playing with Copilot settings...

I have yet to find that sweet spot where it shift how I want it when I want it. Still playing with Copilot settings...





If you havn't tried it already try an agressive sub-level, and a mild main level. I run a 1 sub level and a 3 main level. With this setup, it shifts as soft as stock during daily driving, and very fast shifts at WOT. When not under boost, the Co-Pilot is not adding much pressure, so the TCM will not adapt it out. When the boost is up, the sub-level adds alot of pressure, and the Allison comes alive.


Of course, the shifts were not perfect until the Allison finished adapting to the change.Edited by: Amric

Trippin


Guy, the trim solenoids are pulsed on and off (that means they are precisely timed by TCM). Now i have not been allowed to look at a copilot so i am going to make an educated guess. You are somewhat overiding the TCM control of the trim solenoids with the copilot which in my understanding throws some of the control main pressure timing out the window. Now we know that ATS is using their solenoid on the reverse tube to dump pressure. Seems to be working but i havent seen one and can only guess. Nonetheless, a hardshift in an Allison means something did not get released on time IMHO.


mike

So, are you saying you think there might be a problem with the copilot? Or that people should just back off the settings if the shifts start hitting too hard?

The ATS Co Pilot IMO is as confusing as someone with Alzheimer's ...


No one that owns one has ever expressed a clear description of operation .....I know it's no secret ...





Instant on ?? Nope not perfect till adaptive coverage is obtained ... Which is it ??


Does anyone really know ?? I get in my truck start and drive,no worries ...


Confused as I'll bet many are ...


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


Edited by: Mackin

Instant on ?? Nope not perfect till adaptive coverage is obtained ... Which is it ??


Making a change on the Co-Pilot is similar to making a change with an Edge Attitude. You can do it on the fly with instantly noticable results, but too large of a change, and the Allison will start to re-learn.


Does anyone really know ?? I get in my truck start and drive,no worries ...


Confused as I'll bet many are ...


I can also get in my truck start and drive,no worries. Once I found the ideal setting, I have never changed it again. I am just a rough on it on the street as I am at the track, so no need to change the setting. I just get in and drive. No hard shifts, so the A and B solinoid timing must be correct.

Hmm, that's interesting. I was under the impression that the copilot would stop that adaptive stuff, or at least allow me to override it, or store it at some state, or something like that. I've heard/read that you can go from mild mannered conservative every day driving to "look out! get outa my way!!!" and back again at any time with the push of a button.

When you don't always drive aggressively, I guess your just screwed with the Allison if you want it to work well when you do get in it… </v:stroke></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:ulas></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shape></v:imagedata></v:shape>http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif Ahh for the good old days with the Th400 in my GTO before the damn trans got too smart for my good...

Mr. Mike,


I do owe you an apology sir. We will get together soon I promise. It's just that Tom's Transmission is so close to my home. And I'm basically lazy! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Bad Dog,


The Co-Pilot doesn't stop that adaptive stuff...sorry. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif However, it does let you have some control over what it is adapting to. If it is too hard then back it off some. Everybody has a different preference and I'm sure every truck is just a little different. Based on your previous post it sounds like you and I have similar driving wants and styles.


Them TH400s sure had some neck snapping shifts!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif


Mr. Mike,


Why do the TH400s shift so hard? Even from the factory un-modified?

The ATS Co Pilot IMO is as confusing as someone with Alzheimer's ...


No one that owns one has ever expressed a clear description of operation .....I know it's no secret ...





Instant on ?? Nope not perfect till adaptive coverage is obtained ... Which is it ??


Does anyone really know ?? I get in my truck start and drive,no worries ...


Confused as I'll bet many are ...


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif








Sorry to be confusing..I tried. I don't know how my Attitude/Juice box works exactly either but I sure love it. Different stuff for different folks. At least we both agree on the Dmax. I like Rum and Coke...or Coors Light. You? I just need to know what to have in my hand when I visit CT. Today's choice in the 100+ SoCal weather are Margaritas. You?Edited by: Trippin

Last night was half a 750ml of Stoli ,today is quiet .... Mich Ultra or what ever is avail as I'm also a "adaptive" drinker ...





No way can I drive my truck aggressive as I would like all the time .... To me constantly having access to ever changing pressure values would led to a funky shifting tranny ...


Although I will get some bumpy 1-2 exchanges under light throttle (I got that stock also )the Suncoast shifts consistent and real well under heavy throttle accelerations to me ...


Was just trying to get a learn on the Co Pilot ...





Mac

Guy


The TH400s do not shift hard from the factory in stock form. You also do not owe me an apology for anything. I stated that i have not looked into an ATS ( must be a conspiracy http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif) set up. I will eventually. Untill that time i totaly agree with Mac. I don't know enough about them to say anything.


mike

Last night was half a 750ml of Stoli ,today is quiet .... Mich Ultra or what ever is avail as I'm also a "adaptive" drinker ...


Mac





http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

I thought the allison only learned based on throttle position? Not overall driving habbits. In the winter I turned my juice down to level 1 because its a big enough PITA to keep from lighting up the tires while plowing at stock HP letalone with the juice set to kill. But I kept very mindfull not to go to WOT so it wouldnt start to learn to deal with the lesser power. Set her back to kill and WOT shifts were still the same even though part throttle took some time to adjust. Or am I nuts?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif


So other than ATS uses electronics and SC dosnt......what about the rest of the kit/converter? Is SC or ATS better than one or the other with the rest of the parts they use? Then the decision could be down to the moral delema of should I or shouldnt I hook my alli up to some strange mind altering magic voodo boxhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


So Mike.....if you havent dissected an ATS unit why did you go with SC? If its just a matter of you know Joe and believe in him/his product and have had good experience with him in the past then thats cool and definatly a valid reason. You just kinda made it sound like you liked the SC trany better than the ATS unit based on some sorta insider knowledge.

ratlover


You named a few of the reasons i go with Suncoast. Joe also has a close working relationship with Transgo; so do I. If there is a problem Joe is on top of it, he does not let you hang. As far as ATS; I have been given knowledge by others as to what they do. How accurate is this info; I don't know and will not comment on second hand info. It's not fair.


mike

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif


So do you have any ideas on the differences in thier hard parts?

ratlover


There are no differences in the hard parts ( planetarys, shafts etc.) The difference would be in the brand of clutches,(custom) and internal mods (modifted pistons and such) and secret little tweaks internaly that have proved succesfull to each company. Each company has their test mules and changes are always being made to make the trans better.


mike

Any oppinions on who's clutches and number of are better and why?


Whos converter is better?


Or are they pretty much equal in these regards?

I am not qualifyed to make those comparisons. mtomac and Trippin flog their trucks pretty hard and are very qualified to answer questions about ATS. sdaver and Mac likewise about Suncoast. At this point my opinion would be biased. So, buy Suncoast. (told ya http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif)


mike

I have yet to find that sweet spot where it shift how I want it when I want it. Still playing with Copilot settings...





If you havn't tried it already try an agressive sub-level, and a mild main level. I run a 1 sub level and a 3 main level. With this setup, it shifts as soft as stock during daily driving, and very fast shifts at WOT. When not under boost, the Co-Pilot is not adding much pressure, so the TCM will not adapt it out. When the boost is up, the sub-level adds alot of pressure, and the Allison comes alive.


Of course, the shifts were not perfect until the Allison finished adapting to the change.








Thanks Amric, I'll try that. I've got mine well broken in, and adjusted, just looking for the right setting. Light pedal and full pedal are good, but midway it gets a bit oirnery. I'm thinking of doing a Fast Learn Adapt once to see how it reacts. We tried fooling with the TAP cells w/o a huge change...

John,


My daily driving is with the sub-level all the way to the right. This means it will wait for lots of boost before it adds pressure. My main level is all the way to the left...to keep the shifts near stock in firmness. I reverse these when it is time to go racin. I still drive my truck pretty hard at these levels I just don't do any high boost 4wd launches.


My truck was somewhat eratic after a fast learn. You can look inside the Tech 2 after some driving at each tap cell to verify whether it has completed fast learn or not. I was suprised at how long some of the cells still said "fast" after a few days of driving. Anything that says "slow" has obviously completed the fast learn process.

Can the Copilot be installed without removing the transmission?

Yes

Can the Copilot be installed without removing the transmission?





Oh Yeah!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif

Trippin, what kind of price does the Copilot go far? Full retail on the ats website or is their a better price?

The Copilot is more expensive than the Transgo mod, but doesn't require the transmission to pulled. Tough decision!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

Kennedy has it listed at $975.00 on his website. You might call and see if he is running any specials. 715-255-9433


Tom's Transmission has just applied for ATS dealer status you might try them as well. 661-251-3438


It is more expensive but don't forget you also get the speed limiter removed and torque converter lock up if you choose to hook up those options. The speed limiter requires you to cut into a wire between the TCM and the PCM. The Torque converter lock up requires a wire to be soldered onto the back of the instrument cluster. FYI, I wasn't succesful here with the solder and ended up buying a new one from ATS with the wire already attached.Edited by: Trippin

I have to wonder how the already weak Stock torque converter will hold up ??





Mac

I would not hook up the TC lock override wire with the stock TC. It would kill it for sure.

I would not hook up the TC lock override wire with the stock TC. It would kill it for sure.


My bad!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif


Good call!

I'm not nearly qualified to speak to any of the differences in the two systems. But, I can speak about my recent experience with SunCoast products. Had my stage 3 installed last week after a few conversations with Mr. Webb. Great service, great advice and great product backup (Just call if any questions or problems).


I had limped twice in fifth and yet C-2's were pretty bad. Comments from the tech on the new components " Very beefy kolene steels....extra clutch surfaces as well. This thing will never slip." Since the upgrade this thing shifts just as smooth as when it was new. When you get on it....shifts are fast and only a hint of firmness. With the triple disk locked and in fifth....it pulls like a freight train....it's almost scary how fast/hard this thing pulls in fifth.


I'm sure ATS has Excellent tranny upgrades....I decided SunCoast and have absolutely no regrets!! Well, maybe just one.....I should have upgraded sooner...I've missed a lot of fun with an ailing tranny.


Wayne

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

I'm not nearly qualified to speak to any of the differences in the two systems. But, I can speak about my recent experience with SunCoast products. Had my stage 3 installed last week after a few conversations with Mr. Webb. Great service, great advice and great product backup (Just call if any questions or problems).


I had limped twice in fifth and yet C-2's were pretty bad. Comments from the tech on the new components " Very beefy kolene steels....extra clutch surfaces as well. This thing will never slip." Since the upgrade this thing shifts just as smooth as when it was new. When you get on it....shifts are fast and only a hint of firmness. With the triple disk locked and in fifth....it pulls like a freight train....it's almost scary how fast/hard this thing pulls in fifth.


I'm sure ATS has Excellent tranny upgrades....I decided SunCoast and have absolutely no regrets!! Well, maybe just one.....I should have upgraded sooner...I've missed a lot of fun with an ailing tranny.


Wayne






http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/FZ7_word.gif Suncoast rocks.