Searched but came up empty. What is holding the +150HP range for you guys. I want the holding power, but would like to have a few dollars left over for a new bike this year also. So like many, what can I get for less?

motovet, you beat me to a post - hope you don't mind me piggybacking since it's so closely related:


I'm curious if (or how long) the stock converter will hold the HJAtt. I'm planning on doing clutches and Transgo this summer, but will forgo the converter until I need it. I only plan on running the HJAtt, and can't afford the converter for another few months, so I'd rather get the internals taken care of so if/when I need a convertor, I don't need to get back "in" the Ally.


Will a Transgo & clutches (ie. Suncoast Powerpak w/ Kolenes) hold the HJAtt? I know the common logic is only drop it once and do everything, but it's ~$900 in parts vs $2200... Can you get by w/o the converter, or will it give up the ghost?

Why is the trans always the last mod on the totem pole? Some of you guys will buy any snake oil horsepower mod out there; some work some don't, but you can't bring yourselves to spend money (save money in the long run) on a proven mod that works. Then you want to do it half way so you can buy something else. Do the job right the first time. The trans should have been the first mod, the horsepower second, and the bike, a distant third.

Ok Mike,we all know how stupid we are but could you answer the question please.


Thank you.


Blake

Why is the trans always the last mod on the totem pole? Some of you guys will buy any snake oil horsepower mod out there; some work some don't, but you can't bring yourselves to spend money (save money in the long run) on a proven mod that works. Then you want to do it half way so you can buy something else. Do the job right the first time. The trans should have been the first mod, the horsepower second, and the bike, a distant third.





I put it off because it is by far the most expensive mod I will do to my truck. And I don't really see how doing it first would have saved me any money at all. I'd still be upgrading clutches, torque converter and putting in a transgo kit. Why would it have saved me any money to do it before running high hp through it? I also had 1000 miles on my truck when I put the juice on. If I would have done the tranny first I would have had to spend several thousand dollars on a week old truck. http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ouch.gif Also, I started out with just a regular juice which used in moderation the stock tranny should hold up fairly well. I didn't know at the time how addictive HP is. Who knew I'd be on the quest of 500hp, 12 second 1/4 miles etc.



Now I do agree with you to a certain extent. If your going to do something, do it right the first time. But understand some people have different prioritys then yourself. You should be glad that people are tearing these trannys up because it means they have to see somelike you to get it fixed up. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif



oh, btw hot juice/attitude is the farthest thing from 'any snake oil horsepower mod'

Gee Mike when I bought my original 3.0 Juice a tranny mod was'nt even available yet. Now of course I have upgraded beyond the Allisons ability with the H/Attitude....Ya I know. But hey I have'nt spent over 1K for power adders to date, so 3-5K is something that demands a bit of research on my part. I have been racing most of my life....so the bike is more important to me than it would be for others....see Pics...without that what's it all about? I surely have spent enough on my truck to buy more than one tranny, and my priorities might be a bit off...but I need something now and am looking for some honest opinions and real world experience to help me decide what to do. Max Power posted before me, so seems a bit redundent. But in other words what I was trying to say.Edited by: motovet

Why is the trans always the last mod on the totem pole? Some of you guys will buy any snake oil horsepower mod out there; some work some don't, but you can't bring yourselves to spend money (save money in the long run) on a proven mod that works. Then you want to do it half way so you can buy something else. Do the job right the first time. The trans should have been the first mod, the horsepower second, and the bike, a distant third.


Thank you for your insight - don't take this the wrong way, but why am I not surprised that a tranny guy wants you to do the whole tranny? I'd like a 911 too, not gonna happen.


FWIW, I just spent $5k on furniture & college investment/savings for my 1.5yr old, and have another on the way, due in July. I don't have the luxury of spending $3k - AT THIS TIME. Is the full tranny worth it - of course. Is it the right way to it (do it right/complete the first time)? In most cases, yes. Do you have to pay to play? Of course. I do not disagree at all...


Can you be prudent about how much you pay? I would like to think so, and this is what I'd like to understand. If I need to stay @ 90hp for another year cuz the stock converter won't take any more, I can handle/understand that, and won't waste my time/money to do the job "half way". If the stock converter will handle the HJ/*** at least for quite a while, I will go that route so I can utilize the power. Seems to be a simple enough question, and of course opinions will vary on the answer.Edited by: Joe E

Mike L,


I'm probabably going to get my bone stock LLY beefed up this week or next. Would I take it to someone like you with your Smart*ss attitude. No way. tpitt

tpitt, not sure how long you've been around, but even though I may not like some of the things Mike L writes, I would take my tranny to him in a second if I was going anywhere (and I lived in Cali)... He comes highly recommended for the service he offers.


But, if he ran a "store" which I could the product elsewhere at the same cost, I might shop elsewhere... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

Sorry that you guys took my comment the wrong way, it was not meant to be a flame. My suggestion on doing the trans first will save you money in the long run because you would not need to do the clutches at time of mod. I still don't see the reasoning for the so called updated clutches. So far nothing has been proven better as far as clutches than OEM. I have been seeing a lot of damaged C1,C2,C3, and C4 clutches not because they are inferior but because they were overpowered. I am seeing hardened apply pistons from too much heat and i am seeing bad bushings. None of these parts should have failed. This kind of damage just raises the amont of money it will cost you when you finally do the trans mod. That money could be better spent elsewhere.


mike

Mike L


I accept your apology, and I apoligize for my comment also. Some of us have had the "hot juice" from day one. I was one of the early ones. My 2002 Duramax was the one Edge got their calibrations for the Cali. version off of. I also won the street class drags at Oct. Showdown in Tulare in 2002. My transmission would slip in 3rd and 5th gears with the added power.


I do not plan to repeat this with the LLY. The first upgrade I will be doing is the transmission.


Joe E, See above tpitt


On edit Mike L. What do you recommend? Transgo kit and converter? Thanks, tpittEdited by: tpitt

Mike L,


What transmission recommendation(s) would you suggest to an owner with a stock 2004.5 LLY, knowing that the owner will install the Hot Juice when available. Pricing for these transmission recommendations will assist in planning the upgrade path for my truck.

Mike,
Thanks for your input - no worries. So, at what power level (or damage already incurred) do the Suncoast or ATS clutches become necessary/recommended? You mention that nothing is proven "better" than OEM - I'm apt to agree regarding durability, but what about the surface area and respective power holding? Are the SC/ATS clutches worth the extra $500, or that just money down the toilet (for the average guy)?


Also, which bushings are you speaking of (I've only been inside an Allison once, so I'm not an expert). Thanks.

Right now i recommend a Transgo shift kit (thats a must in my opinion). I am not familiar with the ATS mods but would love to install them and see what they have done. Torque converter update is also a must IMHO because none of the stock ones utilize the full clutch area on apply (everyone i have seen cut open has less than one third clutch burned and the rest of the clutch never touched the surface of the cover). This i believe is because the piston (clutch) deflects on apply and there is nothing to stop it when it connects with the cover and it bows (like steppeing on the center of a frizbee, the outer edges bow out). A modified single disc converter will solve this problem till you get beyond 450 hp and then a triple lock is a must.


As far as clutches go, i still like the OEM (Borg Warner). Alto clutches are the only alternative out there for now. Suncoast has some custom Alto clutches built for them only and Joe Webb is very high on them and they seem to be holding very well under horsepower. There will be a new clutch out within a month, Raybestos, and i've been told they will be using the Blue Plate special lining. I also recommend the Transgo converter valve for high horsepower applications because of the line pressure drop in lock-up. This valve raises line pressure almost back to normal (250 psi)


mike

Mike, that is exactly the info I was looking for, specifically regarding the converter. Thanks!


Ps - now I would shop at your store... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

I know this has been discussed before, but what happens if I install the TRANSGO only? In a low milage Allison that has never been subjected to any power over stock? What could the Allison handle then?

I have the trans go kit only.. Stock clutches and stock converter. I am pushing a HJAT and a Pred through it with no problems. I dont think that the average HJAT guy needs fancy clutches or anything. You wanna run 11's? Then you should think about it. You wanna drive the truck, pull camper, plow snow etc? Then stick with the trans go kit and you can still have your cake and eat it too. Trans go kit installed with new c2's and ready to go shouldnt top the 1500.00 mark regardless of where you live. We (trans guys) rec doing it all at once because it will actually save you ( the consumer) money in the long run, not because we are arrogant or whatever. Ask Tomac how much it costs to go in and do an update or change this or that to his trans......Different situation then most, but point is the same

Bronco


Installing the Transgo shift kit only will help the Ally tremendously but wont do a thing for the converter. The trans will no longer slip but the converter will. That puts heat back in the trans and that heat will prematurely break down the fluids ability to cool and lubricate the clutches and keep the apply pistons(rubber) soft. This heat will also wear the bushings out and cause Teflon rings to wear ring grooves in their bores. Now if you drive it normally and don't flog the truck, you will of course get a lot more life out of the trans. How many of us can do that?

Now if you drive it normally and don't flog the truck, you will of course get a lot more life out of the trans. How many of us can do that?


NOT ME!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif Edited by: Bronco

What kind of warranty issues might someone run into with these trns upgrades. I have a big fear of taking my new $42,000 truck i for som kind of trans probe and them saying, sorry, we arent gonna cover it due to your mods. I know they have to prove it was the mods that caused the problem, but its just a big concern of mine. Has anyone had a issues with warranty work, due to trans or juice mods ?

IMO, if you are gonna tear up the tranny and modify it, your tranny warranty probably should be void. Besides, as more than one person has stated, if you've built up your tranny, do you want GM going back in to it and putting stock parts back in it? Otherwise, I think the only detectable modification would be an ATS Co-Pilot, but that's not what most people are looking at here...

I honestly think if your were to put most kits in, unless they went into it, they would never know, the co-pilot is a dead give away, but other then that....


Depending on the type of failure will depend on weather or not morally your responsible.


And just to make a point clear. I have the stock conv, but I dont rec keeping it stock if your gonna abuse things. Mike L is right about heat and heat damage

Except for the converter looking different the tech would never know even if he tore the trans down. But, you will probably not be in this situation with a trans mod installed properly. I don't think you will have any failures for a long long time. Now, if you are going to run some big programs and want to flog your truck hard you need to call 1 800 868 0053 and ask for Joe Webb-Suncoast, they have some serious hardcore options. I happen to be a Suncoast dealer.


mike

Mike and Eric, thanks for the reccomendations...very useful, though I wonder if I would be considered an "average" HJAtt guy as It's hard not to romp on it now and then and the horsepower thing is extremely addictive. And how much of a fine line are we talking here with level 5 and maybe a stack here and there. Would that not put me in the triple disc catagory? I may be answering my own questions at this point... might be racing the old bike another year. I still have no idea where I might get some work done up here in the Northwest either.


Thanks guys, keep it coming.Edited by: motovet

Amen. Thanks Mike & Eric. Sounds like anything short of a Stage II or comparable just won't cut the mustard much more than stock. Time to do some finagling...

motovet... I guess you will need to determine how far across the line your gonna go.. But I guess what it comes down too is buy as much as you can afford, if your second guessing that you wont have enough, keep saving your pennies

Where do you buy the tranny kits, and who installs them?

FYI....The Co-Pilot can be unplugged and left at home for the occasional trip to the dealer. Yes there is an additional solenoid installed inside the trans but who's gonna see it? I'm assuming if you upgraded the trans your not returning to the dealer for trans work. If you were.... then drop the pan...replace the solenoid and the ATS internal harness and your back to stock if the Co-Pilot was your only mod. The Co-Pilot does incorporate the ability ... from the cab...to tailor shift firmness....monitor boost and apply additional fluid pressure based on a certain boost level and lock the converter in tow/haul mode based on that same boost level selection and remove the speed limiter.


I like the fact that ATS is improving our transmissions using both the electrical and mechanical aspects of the Allison rather than just living in the mechanical world like the most others.


In the end...gather the info and make the decision that is right for you. Be it Suncoast.....TTS/Transgo....or ATS ...you won't go wrong. They are all going to put more of the power to the ground.


"Lock it and Rocket" http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

Where do you buy the tranny kits, and who installs them?


Good question ! My concern would be down time. Would either need to find a local dealer or find someone who does a swap/core thing. Does anyone out there offer this ?

Where do you buy the tranny kits, and who installs them?


Good question ! My concern would be down time. Would either need to find a local dealer or find someone who does a swap/core thing. Does anyone out there offer this ?





It takes more time to pull and replace the transmission than it does to make the modifications.

You guys missed the whole point ....


The POWER came WAY before the tranny mods came to life .... Bully and the Pressure ,VA then along came Edge who was capable of making POWER beyond the capibilities of the Allison ...So the tendency today countinues to More Power worry later ...The beauty of the Allison is return to stock and she'll "normally" drive around just fine giving you time to allow the piggybank to build ...


Today you guys are able to build it first if you like .... Clutches and steels are the cheapest parts ....


Smok'em if you got'em ....


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gifEdited by: Mackin

It takes more time to pull and replace the transmission than it does to make the modifications.


That's cuz you did it TWICE!!! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif sorry, couldn't resist bud.

Smok'em if you got'em ....


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif





http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

what about us standard juice guys? Do we need to worry about the trans if we don't flog the heck out of it?

I have run a TTS 100 horsepower experimental program and did not hurt the trans but i could have. It all boils down to the driver. If you don't push the Allison in the upper gears it will live. 4th and 5th gear(especially during a shift under high horsepower) is when you will limp the trans and hurt it.


mike

Where do you buy the tranny kits, and who installs them?


Good question ! My concern would be down time. Would either need to find a local dealer or find someone who does a swap/core thing. Does anyone out there offer this ?





It takes more time to pull and replace the transmission than it does to make the modifications.





Never done one so I wasn't sure. Roughly how long does it take the mechanically inclined to drop make the mods and install the Allison. Looking at the TC, Clutches, & shift kit.

If your doing it without a lift (on your back), it will take one very full day. With 2 people, I would plan for about 12-15 hours to finish if you have a 4WD. You may be able to do it quicker. Actually I think the second time I did it, I was done in less than 10 hours.


I couldn't have done it without Mike and Joe's help. That Allison is just too heavy for one person to muscle around.

Thats not bad at all. Been a while but I guess its time to pull out the Tranny jack and oil the wheels. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif Now to decide on which kit.

My shop can do a converter replacement in 2 hours or less. (4X4) And yes we put all the bolts back in, and no we do not break the starters, we do not leave greasy fingerprints on the truck or the carpet. We only do this kind of work in an emergency but it is nice to know that i wont let someone down when the fit hits the shan.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

A lift would make it sooooo much easier. It was an absolute bear wrangling that big tranny while on our backs. Having the right tools and equipment goes a long long way to making the job easier, as Mike L. can attest.


MikeEdited by: VFRRider

My shop can do a converter replacement in 2 hours or less. (4X4) And yes we put all the bolts back in, and no we do not break the starters, we do not leave greasy fingerprints on the truck or the carpet. We only do this kind of work in an emergency but it is nice to know that i wont let someone down when the fit hits the shan.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif Boy, your showing your age Mikehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


I can replace the rotating assembly that fasthttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


All in all, thats shows your (our) experience with these big boxes. I wish you and I could just hang out for a day or so and exchange stories/experienceshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

Aw Man Eric!


You sure know how to p--s(excuse me Mr. Moderator) on my parade. I am not old, i am experiencedhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif. I can walk and chew gum at the same time; and you?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif Do not come back here and tell me you can do the same standing on your head holding a flower pot upside down and not spill waterhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Shocked.gif. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


mike


ps


hope you choke on the gum.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif

Mike, you think your hot chit dont ya? I can chew gum, walk and bump by head on that damn hoist arm at the same time. I have even been known to break dance in my stall from time to time. ( or is that trying to stand up on a floor covered in diesel, atf, oil, coolant.....?) You lost me on the flower pot thing, but I suppose thats an anology they used to use back in the sixties before I came around, WAY beforehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Eric, ET TU BRUTE?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif

Eric, ET TU BRUTE?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif all right, now you lost me for sure. I think we just hijacked this thread Mike, I am gonna have to report this to the modshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

I WAS running the Edge/Attitude on the stock tranny but after you limp-mode it a couple of times (in a 6month period), I could tell the converter was not holding in the 4-5 gear range at all. I had ATS put in the ATS clutch packs, T/C and Copilot over a ski trip. It took them about 2 1/2 days. For the people worried about GM discovering this, I dont see how I could get around it. Even though they used my existing tranny, It got a new paint job. The tranny is now glossy purple and the pan glossy black. It would be kind of hard to slip this by the deaer. If you had another shop do it for you, I'm sure you'd be better off paintwise (unless you were doing the core swap as a Bear had asked about).


Sorry for all the rambling, but I guess my main point is that for me, the paint would be more of a dead give-away to the dealer than anything else, wouldnt it?


Jason

Bummer! You got the Purple display tranny ATS totes around to all of the truck shows.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif





This is a highly subjective question, but how far would one have to back out of the throttle on the 4-5 shift to be safe?

I dont do the paint thing becuase it's dead giveaway, I do sometimes hit them with aluminum paint, but rarely.

With all this high horse power and transmision upgrades how do the transfer cases hold up to all this abuse. Has any one run a temperature probe in a modified truck to check out the temps. I remember a post or two about some c-clip that comes loose and rubs a hole in the case. Does all the extra power make this worse? Edited by: Blue Max

Eric, ET TU BRUTE?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif all right, now you lost me for sure. I think we just hijacked this thread Mike, I am gonna have to report this to the modshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif Hes referring to Brutus stabbing Caesar, Basicly that lingo means Caesar couldnt believe Brutus stabbed him, because they were buddies.

Et Tu, Eric? Then fall, Mike L. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Ouch! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

One common thing I see is guys looking to do JUST enough. If you are gooing to do it, do the Suncoast 3 or ATS full kits with converter and be done with it. The labor sucks for one of these jobs, and a few hundred extra bucks will go a long way to ensuring durability...

One common thing I see is guys looking to do JUST enough. If you are gooing to do it, do the Suncoast 3 or ATS full kits with converter and be done with it. The labor sucks for one of these jobs, and a few hundred extra bucks will go a long way to ensuring durability...


Should we take that to mean you consider the SC3 and full ATS comparable? Or is it just that ATS doesn't have all the levels SC does?

I am putting the Suncoast stage3 in mine.....now where did I put that extra cash...