I had cranked my torsion bars about 6 turns to level the truck. I'm running 285 BFGs, so I needed some tire clearance, too. As you'd expect--pretty rough ride.


So, I paid a shop $185 (parts and labor) to install the keys. My understanding was that the keys would give me the lift I needed without having to crank the torsion bars. I deduced that my ride would be much improved over cranked t-bars. I was wrong! The ride is twice as stiff as it was before! It's unbearable, but almost comical. I can't even keep the accelerator pedal applied consistently--each time I go over a bump, my foot hits the pedal--my revs modulate with the road. Ridiculous.


I'm going back today to ask if anyone even bothered with a test-drive. No one in their right mind would drive a truck like this. I'm sure they'll take care of me somehow--adjust things, whatever. But it's a shame to take a $45,000 truck and have it drive like a $1,500 beater.


I guess I just need to pony up the bucks and get a mild lift with bilstiens...


~Terel

How much over stock was it lifted? What is the distance from the ground to you flare lip? Something may be wrong with the install?


I found that up to 2" was max and anything over that was poop! Mine at 2" with the keys and stock shocks rides about equal to 3-4 turns on the stock keys. I compared the two set ups the same day of green keys vs. stock keys cranked. I found that at 2.5" the ride was way bouncey and really uncontrollable. Kinda like trying to balance on top of a ball but certainly was just the oppisite of very stiff. Backed it back down to 2" and was just fine. Anyone else have the problems he is having with the really stiff ride after installing the keys?


What tire pressure are you running?


I'd feel worse about shelling out the $185 bones for the install!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

I haven't measured how high the lift is. I think you're on to something, though. It looks almost too high. Like they put the new keys in and then cranked the t-bars, too. I think they'll back them off a good inch for me--I think the truck will still look level (especially if I put something heavy in the bed).


My tires are at about 50 psi on all 4 wheels.


I'll let you know how the remedy the situation. Should I expect them to re-align after the adjustment (1 inch lower)? The $180 included the alignment.


~Terel

The green keys are no different than cranking the torsion bars (at the same lift). The only difference would be thread engagement in the sockets - there should be NO difference at the same lift. The lift comes from rotating the torsion bar accordingly to get the ride height to a specific location, and this can be done (to an extent) with cranking the keys, or with new keys which have a different angle indexing the torsion bar.


You can only go so far, either way, before you start causing other issues. Don't know if that's what happened to you, but at the same ride height, there is NO explanable reason why different keys vs cranking would cause any difference in ride feel.

Are the control arms pointing to China?

I would be surprised if backing them off some didn't cure your problem.

Thats the first thing that popped into my mind Hoot!


terel, I was thinking they may have used the air impact and cranked the shizznits out of them because there should be over and inch or more of threads showing on the adjuster bolts. They probably ran them up like the stock set up. Hope thats all it is! $180 with alignment sounds alot better!


Green keys the same as cranking!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif Only hear that from those that have never installed them!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifEdited by: 03GMC2500HD

Joe E,


If you can get the desired lift without the keys, and there's no improved ride quality from using the keys, then why do people spend money on them?


I wish I knew this before I decided to buy them. I'll talk to the shop and try to get them adjusted, but it sounds like I may have wasted my money.


~Terel








The green keys are no different than cranking the torsion bars (at the same lift). The only difference would be thread engagement in the sockets - there should be NO difference at the same lift. The lift comes from rotating the torsion bar accordingly to get the ride height to a specific location, and this can be done (to an extent) with cranking the keys, or with new keys which have a different angle indexing the torsion bar.


You can only go so far, either way, before you start causing other issues. Don't know if that's what happened to you, but at the same ride height, there is NO explanable reason why different keys vs cranking would cause any difference in ride feel.

terel- You said that you cranked, with the original keys, 6 turns. Did you back the torsion bars down 6 turns before they instlled the green keys? If not this is probably why the ride is bad. If you did, the shop probably cranked them up.


If you have green keys in or not the ride should be the same if the torsion bars wern't changed becasue the torsion bars still have the same amount of stress. Wouldn't that be the correct way to look at it?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gifEdited by: Mr. Mister

green keys are the same as crnaking only they let you overcrank

Green keys the same as cranking!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif Only hear that from those that have never installed them!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif





I want to know what you are smoking! It don`t matter if you adjust the bolt or replace the adjustment key for the torsion bars. If you get the same amount of lift from either way it will ride the exact way. Either way you do it, you are cranking the torsion bars.


The only difference is with the new keys (Green) you can go higher, and have more threads lift on the adjustment bolts.

terel,
You can only lift them so much by cranking, before you start getting lean on the number of remaining threads. For many people, it's enough. If cranking will not lift the front enough, then the keys will get you to that next level.


The danger with the keys is lifting it too far, and causing suspension issues (mainly no droop). With this, if your static position of your control arms is too angled, it will affect your ride. However, for a given ride height, there is no difference between cranking & keys, provided you can obtain that specific height with each option... (I hope that was clear...?).


I myself put the keys on before I participated (learned) in forums and realized I could have just cranked first, to see if I got enough.


If you had enough lift by cranking, then I think you may have wasted your money... Having said all this, there are people who swear up and down that changing keys will affect ride, but I have yet to see a logical (engineering) explanation for this.

my experience with adding the green keys is you need longer aftermarket shocks because basically your stock shocks are going to be maxed out

my experience with adding the green keys is you need longer aftermarket shocks because basically your stock shocks are going to be maxed out

How can that be? Green keys don't increase suspension travel.

Hoot I know you're just stirring the pot so I know how to take your comments.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


hdmax and Joe E, let me ask you this, when you had your TB's cranked to the max for 1.5" of lift are you telling me the ride was not extremely harsh? When you swapped for the green keys and cranked to 1.5"-2" wasn't the ride a little smoother?


I make my living as an engineer and had the same though process as you guys and most other that there cannot be a difference and it does the same thing. But for $50 and 30 min work I was willing to test the two set ups side by side. Trust me I ain't smokin S**t when I say I spent an afternoon taking an Engineering approach by comparing the two set ups at various settings and YES the green keys rode smoother than the stock keys cranked. That is why they have been in mine for over a year now. I am not alone with this either and that is why I was curious why terel was having a problem with it. Only problems I have seen that people were having was an improper install. Can't give you a solid Engineering reason why it is different but frankly I don't give rats ass why it does just that it does.

Here are my thoughts......AGAIN.

Hoot is NOT stirring the pot. He is stating FACT.

Lets face it guys,....Unless these GREEN keys are made out of RUBBER, and are able to FLEX, they're going to ride the SAME (Equal Z height to Equal Z height).

The only thing that I can gather that cranking/Green Keying could do is take the additional spring that the jounce bumper provides OUT of the equation. If your suspension is HIGHER than the jounce bumper (not normally contacting it) you'll likely experience a "springier" or softer ride. Lower it down to stock where it "rides" on the jounce bumper, and you have additional spring or squish factors to consider.

So, if you crank stock bars to 1.5" and establish a mental note of ride. Then you install the GREEN Keys to 0 (ZERO) lift which lets say is EQUAL to the 1.5" lift that cranking STOCK keys offers. The ride WILL/HAS TO BE the SAME.

BUT....

If you go to say 2", then the effects (lack of) of the jounce bumpers come into play. That extra .5" (or whatever you crank the GREEN Keys to) is the TICKET! It's THAT measurement that allows you to "feel" a better ride.


*************************


Again, SHOCKS should be fine. Think about this for awhile....Take your truck in to a shop to have shock absorbers installed.

They pull your truck in to the bay.
Slide their lift arms under frame.
Lift truck up on frame lift.
Suspension hangs freely. Fully extended.
They remove front shocks.

The front suspension doesn't DROP when you remove the shock mounting bolt. It's already hanging from the A-Arm stop.

If shocks could bottom out, they wouldn't be able to install the NEW shocks while on a lift. They wouldn't extend far enough to line up the bolts.

03GMC2500HD, I can't understand for the life of me why there would be any difference at the same ride height. I too am an engineer. Well, worse, I'm an engineering manager... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif I would almost be so bold as to say it's phyically impossible, but then I'm sure I'd be wrong...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif


Lawnboy, that was a good/clear explanation for people. Another point people must consider is that shocks should never be your suspension limit, as they are not built to support the weight of the drivetrain/suspension on droop, nor the weight of the vehicle on compression.

Same here, the only way you possibly might have a better ride is the fact that you're no longer sitting on the yellow rubber bump stop and/or you are riding on a different range of the shock.

Same here, the only way you possibly might have a better ride is the fact that you're no longer sitting on the yellow rubber bump stop and/or you are riding on a different range of the shock.


Or the lighter wallet is....... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Lawnboy thats a good point about the distance between the jounce. That could be the ticket I don't know. That piont has been brought up before but I don't think anyone has tested it yet. I think I will lower mine down .5" or so and test that theory. If that is true then my ride will go to crap and be very harsh. Shouldn't take but a few minutes to do and I will let you guys know tonight if it makes a difference. Dont get me wrong guys I am still thinking the same way you guys are that there is no physical way it should be different but until comparing and swapping them, there is a difference in ride what ever the reason.

Also, as Hoot and others have said, Shock Absorbers develop a "memory" or wear zone. Go above or under this "zone" and you'll get more dampning = better ride.

I'm sure its a combination of a LOT of things. From your new seating angle in the truck, to the bypassing of the jouncers, to the wear zone of the shocks. Not to mention the placebo effect.

Friends,


I took the rig into the shop yesterday. Fortunately, they were very accomodating.


They adjusted the torsion bars down (there were very few threads remaining before I brought it in). The manager told me they did not crank them when they installed the new keys. But when they send the trucks off to alignment, sometimes the guys there torque them in the alignment process.


Okay--sounds fair. The only problem I have left with them (although I'm willing to look past it) is why didn't someone test-drive the truck before delivering it to the customer. No one in their right mind would have delivered the truck as-is. I used the truck to move over the weekend, and I barely have any teeth left after the crack-bump-bounce-chop-chop ride! Now, after the adjustment, the truck still sits level (maybe a half inch low in front), but the ride is much better--better than when I'd cranked the t-bars before buying the keys. They, of course, fixed things without charge. They did not re-align the truck, but they told me if I felt the truck pulling to one side, bring it back in and they would align it again free of charge.


My only concern here is this--the alignment problem caused by playing with ride height is not toe-in or toe-out (which causes lane drift, right?). It's camber, or vertical tilt. It seems this could be out of whack with no real noticeable effects other than uneven tire wear. If I wait until my tires are worn unevenly to raise the issue with them, then it's too late. Any suggestions?


For what it's worth, they also identified the clunking noise I've mentioned in other posts. After ruling out the spring slap problem that many of us have experienced, I was at a loss. It turns out the mounting hardware and fasteners for my step tubes needed to be torqued down again. NOT a suspension probleml, as I'd feared.


So, my rig is riding smooth again and is not making noises anymore. Now I just need to get it registered in CA--what a nightmare!


Thanks for all your tips, guys. You're great.


~Terel

Glad it worked out for you terel!


I agree it must be a combo or something of the Jounce gap, and you are riding in the lower limits of the shocks now but I will still drop mine tonight if I have time and see what happens. I for one would like to know a solid reason why because the same ol threads about "its the same thing as cranking vs. ride is smoother" is getting old!

Terel, Just go back and tell them it pulls, because they adjusted the bar the alignment will be out.


I'm getting the green key to fix mine. It sat .5" low on the driver side new. A week later it sat 1.5" low on driver side. Had to crank it up to level it with passenger side. Dealer looked at it and said there was nothing wrong with it, aligned the front end and said that is it.


I still think something is wrong with the Torsion Bar on the driver side. All that and the ride did not change. I also can't get the front up enough to set level with the back because there are only a few threads left on driver side.

Well I got a chance to drop mine tonight. I backed it down 1/2" and the ride got smoother. I backed it down another 1/2" for total of 1" and the ride was very plush. Actually probably softer than factory ride. I cranked mine back up 3/4" for a total of 1.75" lift and called it good. I have the clearance I need and the ride so thats enough for me. Still doesn't answer why mechanically but the difference is very noticable.

03GMC2500HD, I'm not sure your test is really answering the issue which is at the same lift/vehicle height, is there a difference between green keys & cranked stock keys. You've only confirmed as the height is lowered, the ride becomes mushier...


I know we all are mostly in agreement that logically there should be no difference, but I want to reiterate two simple facts:
1) At the same ride height (within safe limits of the stock keys), the "clocking" of the torsion bar within the key and at the control arm IS the same. This is simple physics.
2) The keys are static, and do not move - there is no dynamic impact resulting on the position of the end of the key as it relates to the screw & crossmember.


Given these two conditions, I still contend there is no phyisical way for there to be a difference, but I DO respect your experience... It's going to be beat to death long after we're gone... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Ps. I have the over-priced Hill keys, and while they give me a flexibility to go higher than the stock keys, I probably (as many people on the forum) could have gotten away with the stock keys for my needs (lift) - if I'd known I could crank first (fell victim to advertising).

The test was see if the above theory was correct. It was to compare ride conditions at 1.5" of lift over stock with the keys vs. 1.5" of lift over stock with stock keys. My truck with 285's had a non lifted ride height of 39.5" from the level garage floor to the lip of the flare. My lited height is 41.5". I lowered it to 41" which is the same ride height as if I just crancked the stock keys 1.5". The ride was very smooth and very close to stock ride. I lowered it another .5" to see and the ride was very soft, actually too soft. Kind drove like an onld Ford truck with worn out shockshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif I need the clearance for the 285's to clear my splash gaurds so I cranked it back up .75" so the front now sits at 41.25". If the stock keys were cranked to achieve 1.5" of lift the ride is very harsh. I know because I have tried it and you guys that have them cranked know what I'm talking about. Now this is no scientific test but the results do show that the two set ups are totally different and are no way close enough be be considered a personal opinion. It is a fact.


Actually the clocking of the keys are different. If you crank the stock keys for 1.5" of lift the LCA is angling down at say 30 deg (Hyp) and the keys are clocked at the 2 o'clock position to achieve it. With the green keys your LCA is at the same 30 deg because it has to to get the same lift. But the keys are at the 3 o'clock position. This is where I am confused on it. In theory it shoud require the same torquing of the TB to be at the same height because the resistance is the same (the susp components and the weight of the truck), right? But for some reason it isn't because the ride firmness is different.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif This very thing has been debated for the past couple years and there is still no mechanical reason for it.


Sorry to here you ponied up the $$$ for the Hill keys! They made some $$$ in the beginning and probably still are!

Actually the clocking of the keys are different. If you crank the stock keys for 1.5" of lift the LCA is angling down at say 30 deg (Hyp) and the keys are clocked at the 2 o'clock position to achieve it. With the green keys your LCA is at the same 30 deg because it has to to get the same lift. But the keys are at the 3 o'clock position. This is where I am confused on it. In theory it shoud require the same torquing of the TB to be at the same height because the resistance is the same (the susp components and the weight of the truck), right? But for some reason it isn't because the ride firmness is different.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif This very thing has been debated for the past couple years and there is still no mechanical reason for it.


Sorry to here you ponied up the $$$ for the Hill keys! They made some $$$ in the beginning and probably still are!


Clarification, I meant the clock on the torsion bar end (into the key) itself is the same. You are correct that the key itself is clocked very differently, but that is simply the difference in the hex-cutout in the key itself being at a different base angle (I can post up a drawing of a key if I'm not being clear...). That is my point - the torsion bar itself MUST be in the same position (at both ends) at identical ride heights.


No worries about the Hill keys - I've made more expensive mistakes... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

"At both ends" is the key to what you are saying. If I get time I will try to drop the truck back down to say about 1.25" of lift over the stock ride height then mark the ends of the TB with horizontal lines for this set up with the keys. Then I will swap the stockers back in and crank up to the exact same ride height of 1.25" over stock ride height and check the marks. If the same torque is required to achieve the same lift then the bar ends would be in the same place and the lines would match up. If they differ then the torque must be different. Does that sound like a fair test to you? See any major holes in it? Let me know what you think!

That is exactly correct. Keep in mind that for the same reason there isn't much difference close to the pivot point at the control arm, it will be hard to measure differences at the rear of the TB. For this reason, I would suggest doing something like clamping on a vise grip to the torsion bar (as close to the crossmember as possible) when you're at the height you plan on using as your guage, and measure the angle of the vise grip. Then swap the keys, get the "height" back, and remeasure the angle. Should be the same. This would verify my "givens", but would not address the perception you have of a difference in ride feel at that same level...


This horse has SO many bullets in it...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Tongue.gif

Good idea on the vise grips! I'll see what I can do. No t hard to swap and do as it is to find time to do it.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Good idea on the vise grips! I'll see what I can do. No t hard to swap and do as it is to find time to do it.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Yeah, that's my biggest problem - no time. I still have the stock keys, but I can't find time to do other stuff let alone mess around with this - and the grass is finally growing here in MI = even more to do... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif

Any more results? Was enjoying the direction of this experiment.

Turkey season right now, vacation next week, Outdoor show the next week so it looks like around the middle of May before I'll get a chance to try it. I'll post up when I get some info.

If the same torque is required to achieve the same lift then the bar ends would be in the same place and the lines would match up. If they differ then the torque must be different.
The weight of the truck remains the same so the torque required to achieve identical lifts must be the same.
The torsion bars will end up in the same position.

Any perceived change in ride quality for identical lift heights (no matter which keys) and with no change in torsion bars is placebo effect.Edited by: dndj

Hoot I know you're just stirring the pot so I know how to take your comments.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


hdmax and Joe E, let me ask you this, when you had your TB's cranked to the max for 1.5" of lift are you telling me the ride was not extremely harsh? When you swapped for the green keys and cranked to 1.5"-2" wasn't the ride a little smoother?


I make my living as an engineer and had the same though process as you guys and most other that there cannot be a difference and it does the same thing. But for $50 and 30 min work I was willing to test the two set ups side by side. Trust me I ain't smokin S**t when I say I spent an afternoon taking an Engineering approach by comparing the two set ups at various settings and YES the green keys rode smoother than the stock keys cranked. That is why they have been in mine for over a year now. I am not alone with this either and that is why I was curious why terel was having a problem with it. Only problems I have seen that people were having was an improper install. Can't give you a solid Engineering reason why it is different but frankly I don't give rats ass why it does just that it does.

i put in green keys today did not test ride. nor did i crank them up.the key is aBOUT 1/8" above the threaded holder where the bolt goes.from the floor to the center of the lower rear arm bolt is 15 3/16".the truck looks a little higher in the front then in the rear. there is no adjustment to lower the keys.the bolt is just in there a hair. any suggestion.

any suggestion.


Drive it and report back the difference

Green keys the same as cranking!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif Only hear that from those that have never installed them!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif








That sums it up best.


Don't knock it till you've tried it. The green keys are magic. My dad's truck is identical to mine, he cranked his t-bar bolts, I installed green keys. His rides harsh and mine rides smooth as a baby's butt.


Only complaint I've got is the shocks are bouncy as hell. They weren't too bad at first but feel like they're toast now at 15k miles.

[QUOTE=03GMC2500HD]


Only complaint I've got is the shocks are bouncy as hell. They weren't too bad at first but feel like they're toast now at 15k miles.








Can you elaborate? Are they OEM bilsteins?

OEM.

I'm surprised they lasted that long.


Wonder what your 2" lift will feel like with bilsteins?

I'll let you know pretty soonhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif I still might go with RS9000X's with the in cab controller instead.. Haven't decided yet.

I did ask bilstein about thier replacements on a 2" lift. They said they see some premature failures as the shock apparently limits extension travel limit. With the shock bottoming out more frequently, apparently. Might not be an issue for non-offroaders.

I've read that the replacement Bilstein shocks are slightly shorter in length than OEM shocks. Perhaps this is why they top out to the point of breakage.

Yawn.....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Sleepy.gif

Camstyn,


What is your objective with the Rancho's, besides adjustability? Are you trying to address the front or back?

Just trying to get rid of the bounce. I like the idea of external adjustability to fine tune my ride.

Camstyn, maybe you said before but how much over stock did you lift yours? I found that when I raised mine with the keys to 2.5" the ride was really bouncy. I backed it down to 2" and the ride was a lot better. You may just try bringing it down a bit first instead of new shocks just to see. It easy and you can always go back to where you are now.

Camstyn,





Did you mean back bucking?

Yeah I'm at about 2.5" on the front. I figured lowering it would help a bit but I'd rather keep it where it is. With the setting it's on now my front tires still rub on the sheet metal at the back of the wheel well when backing up and turning, so I want to keep it to a minimum..


Hopefully the shocks will help. I'm pretty sure that it wasn't nearly this bad when I installed the green keys at ~2500 miles.

Camstyn





New 9000's yet?


I took a close look today. Mine has bilsteins and 2" lift. Put the jack under the crossmember, and lifted. The shock topped out out with only 1" of travel. So you guys running green keys, are running essentially topped out (using bilsteins). The upper stop still had over 1/2" of gap, that is over 1" of wheel travel wasted. That definately explains the complaints. I noticed mine have 3/4" of threads left on the top. Decided to shim it using extra rubber grommets, instead of trying to manufacture a spacer for the bottom of the shock. Much improved ride! And the performance cornering is dramatic, the drooping wheel keeps traction longer with the extra travel. The bilsteins either need to be lengthened as suggested, or use something else on the front, like the 9000 with the extra length.


Next I did a mod on the stock jouncers, shaved them, to make them more progressive, more of a spring, less of a stop.

I originally had Hill Country keys and now have a Rancho 4" lift w/RS9000Xs. I had the stock shocks for a while with the Hill Keys and then Bilsteins. Here is what I found:


1.5" of T-bar crank and stock shocks--rides like stock


1.5" of T-bar crank and Bilsteins--very good ride


2" of T-bar crank and Bilsteins--very good ride


2.5" of T-bar crank and Bilsteins--good ride, on the edge of being "jouncy"


4" Rancho lift with RS9000X--Excellent ride


4" Ranch lift with RS9000X and Realift Torsion Bar Relocators--Excellent Ride


There are a couple major factors in ride quality with cranked t-bars. The first is shocks. If you get the shocks too far out of their center of travel they lose some of the dampening ability.


Also, the softest ride will occur when the lower a-arm is horizontal to the ground. Any change from horizontal will have a small effect on the effective spring rate of the t-bar. It take a bit to explain this, but the best analogy is taking off stubborn lug nuts with a breaker bar. You can generate the most force when the breaker bar is horizontal your direction of pull. If the breaker bar is at an angle, you can't generate as much force with it. It's kind of the same thing in reverse with the lower a-arm and the t-bar.


The bottom line is the change in horizontal of the lower a-arm, the decrease in shock dampening effectiveness, the loss of help from the auxiliary spring, and probably some other factors we haven't covered results in the ride becoming choppy when the t-bars are cranked more than a couple of inches.


Somebody also mentioned needed re-alignment after adjusting the t-bars. This is true, but all that needs to be reset is the toe, which is something you can do yourself. As the t-bars are cranked and the nose raised, the tires toe-in. As the nose is lowered, the tires toe-out. When you reset this, fudge a little on the heavy toe side for maximum safety. However, if you are not comfortable doing this, take it to a shop.


Blaine

Maybe I'm too simple. Stock tires, stock T-Bar location. H2 35" BFG's, 7 turns on each TBar. Go back to stock tires for tow season, lower TBars 7 turns. Drives like a truck stock. Drives more like a truck with H2's. No alignment. Get in and press the go pedal, don't pay much attention to how much I bounce while I'm gettin where I'm goin. No pulling to either side with either setup, never paid much attention otherwise. Maybe I just don't know what I'm missin.

There are a couple major factors in ride quality with cranked t-bars. The first is shocks. If you get the shocks too far out of their center of travel they lose some of the dampening ability.





Agree with your statement. And if using OEM shocks, there is no down-travel, which is the case at about 2.5" of lift. At 2.5", the shock is topped out just sitting in the driveway and the wheel has no where to go, except compress. With no downtravel, 50% of the articulation is gone, halfway to having no suspension at all, a shameful thing to do to a comfortable IFS. Expensive as well in the long run.


The bilstein (or stock) can be modified, using spacers to compress the shock in it's mounts, and regain about 1.5" of downtravel. After experiencing the ride deterioration of lifting and then applying the mod, I would not recommend oem bilsteins to anyone thinking of using them on a torsion lift over 1.5", unless willing to do the spacer mod. It is a very significant improvement in ride quality and cornering performance, maybe better than removing the overloads.Edited by: masterp2

Camstyn


If you end up going with the longer shock, please post your result. If not, do the spacer mod, I think your bounce will be gone. Sounds like your shocks may be a victim of top out failure.

So the rancho 9000's are longer than stock and Bilsteins? With the Bilsteins being alittle shorter than stock. Interesting, may order Rancho instead of Bilstein!

So the rancho 9000's are longer than stock and Bilsteins?


How did you conclude that? He is running a lift with lift shocks.

The Rancho 9000X's are 1/2" shorter than stock. I put them on anyways (with my green keys set at ~2.25" lift) and haven't had any problems with them at all, I honestly don't think they are running out of travel. Just install and enjoy.


FWIW, the new part# for the 2500HD's and 3500's is RS99288. Well, the RS99295 was the part# they gave you up until the new catalog came out. They are identical, except the 288's only have 2 inches of compression travel while the 295's have 4 inches. I ordered the RS99295's.'


I really don't think the shocks are topping out. I may try a 1" spacer mod just to see what happens, since they ARE 1/2" shorter than stock. I'll post the results after I've tried it, might take me a while to get around to it though.





BTW, do NOT use the Rancho front shocks made for the 4" lift unless you actually have the Rancho 4" lift. They are way too long for a stock truck with green keys or whatever.Edited by: Camstyn

Camstyn


Would you be up to throwing a jack under your crossmember, mark the shock, jack it up untill shock stops traveling, and mark the new location?


Be interested to see what you have for downtravel.

Masterp2,


I guess I should mention I used some 1" spacers and installed them when I installed my Bilsteins.


Blaine

No one makes a shock say 1" longer than stock? Seems we would not want to put a shorter than stock shock on if we are cranking the bars or installing the keys?! Or, are the 1" spacers the way to go?

No one makes a shock say 1" longer than stock? Seems we would not want to put a shorter than stock shock on if we are cranking the bars or installing the keys?! Or, are the 1" spacers the way to go?


The bilstein OEM are popular in part because they are vehicle specific in the valving. I am happy with them using spacers. If the 9000 adjustable shocks are available 2" longer, as reported by some, I think that may be a good way to go.


I am in the process of trying to find a shock spacer for the factory and bilsteins. I suggest 1.25" to 1.5" inch spacer mod, to get the most use of the downtravel stop. Easily accomplished with a 1" bottom shock mount spacer, plus washers at the top.

Masterp2, Since you took out your factory front shocks, can you post what the compressed and extended lengths are on the stockers? Wanted to compare to Ranchos guide. They sure have a lot of various lengths available.


jeff

Maybe Blaine has a source for spacers.

I have the stockers in front of me. Specify the measurement you want. I do not know the standard way to measure shock length

15.5" from the bottom eye center, to the nut on the top of the shock boot. compresses to 11.0", 4.5" travel.

19.5" overall length extended

http://www.gorancho.com/documents03/03_shock_specs.pdf (http://www.gorancho.com/documents03/03_shock_specs.pdf)


I think you've measured correctly going from the bottom of the threaded end to center of the eye. Thanks for measuring.


According to Rancho's guides, the RS99288 has 12.75 compressed and 15.250 extended. The RS99295 has 10.625 compressed and 15.250 extended. Neither appear to give the downward travel needed, although using a spacer on the RS99295 appears safer because it can compress more and would have less risk bottoming in the compression.

Blaine, you fab those spacers or are they available somewhere?

I made my spacers out of aluminum plate. They are 1" thick total but I used two 1/2" pieces. I drilled the holes fairly tight for the bolts and bought longer bolts. Make sure you get the same grade. 9.8 I believe but the originals are marked anyway. Do not go over 1". The lower shock bolt has to be reversed to reinstall and over an inch the bolt will hit the axle shaft or CV boot.


I have 13K on this setup with no problems. I'm still running original stock shocks at 31K. Honestly I installed them and haven't given them a thought since. See my pics.

Jeli


Are you going to ever try to shim the jouncer down? Mine is like yours, think it would be a little nicer ride, and easier on the torsion bars, if it were barely spaced from the arm. For sure, the suspension travel cannont utilize the jouncer well, that 1/2" of space equates to about 2" of wheel compression. The torsions are seeing much more force than stock, where the jounce rests on the a-arm.


comment.

masterp2, I never tried nor had the inclination to do anything else. Mine rides and handles great. I only run 35 psi in my 315's unless towing then I'll air the rears to 40. That makes a big difference.


Steve

I use 35 also, 45 in front. How are yours wearing? Were you able to align within specs?