In light of the questions posed earlier in this thread I thought I would share this info I recieved a couple days ago:

Subject:Identifying Duramax Diesel LB7/LLY/LBZ Overpower Engine Breakdown or Non-Function Due to Aftermarket Power-Up Devices vs. Non Overpower Engine Non-Function of Pistons, Cylinders, Valvetrain Components #06-06-01-007 - (04/04/2006)


Models:2001-2006 Chevrolet Express,Silverado
2003-2006 Chevrolet Kodiak
2001-2006 GMC Savana, Sierra
2003-2006 GMC TopKick
with Duramax™ 6.6L V8 Turbo Diesel Engine (VINs 1, 2, D -- RPOs LB7, LLY, LBZ)



General Motors Position On Aftermarket Power-Up Devices

Important: General Motors does not support or endorse the use of devices or modifications that, when installed, increase the engine horsepower and torque. Refer to bulletin number 04-06-04-054 -- Warranty Admin. - Non-GM Parts and Accessories (Aftermarket).
Important: For further information on aftermarket power-up kits, refer to February 2006 Emerging Issues Course Number 10206.02D. In Canada, information on aftermarket power-up kits will be covered in the April 2006 TAC TALK program.
Aftermarket power-up devices are non-approved by General Motors. These devices are usually piggy-backed in the main engine harness or remain connected to the diagnostic connector to upload the calibration to the ECM. Recent warranty reviews of returned engines show engine breakdown or non-function due to power-up devices that are utilized for increased horsepower and torque. The following information will assist technicians in identifying overpower engine breakdown or non-function due to aftermarket power-up devices vs. non overpower engine breakdown or non-function.
Non-GM parts can alter the design of the vehicle. GM dealers need to be aware of the quality of parts being installed on vehicles. If failure occurs as a result of installation of sub-par parts, warranty coverage may be denied. Refer to Service Bulletin Number 04-06-04-054 Warranty Admin. --Non-GM Parts and Accessories (Aftermarket).
Installed Power-Up Kit

Aftermarket power-up kits have become a very popular add on for performance-minded customers. These devices can add horsepower and torque and can add additional stress to the engine. These aftermarket calibrations take the Duramax™ powertrain outside of its design torque and horsepower rating. They do this by altering air/fuel ratios and injector timing, resulting in excessive cylinder pressure and temperature. When these calibrated parameters are altered, it will upset the design balance and can lead to a reduction of engine life expectancy. Generally, in inspection of Duramax™ engine failure due to power-up failures, two or more cylinders will be affected.
Installed Power-Up Kit

• Once installed, the calibration may mask itself with the factory original calibration ID and may remain the same.
• A Tech 2® will not positively enable you to identify the use of a power up device.
• Some companies that offer power-up devices claim increases of 150 or more horsepower and 300 or more lb/ft pounds of torque.
• A vehicle that is used to the power-up device potential 100% of the time will see earlier engine wear and breakdown.
• A vehicle that takes advantage of additional power, but on a less frequent basis, may not see premature engine wear and breakdown until later in the engine's life.
• A vehicle not pushed to its limits of the power-up device often may not encounter premature wear and breakdown until after the engine is out of warranty.
Duramax™ Powertrain Horsepower / Torque Ratings

The following horsepower and torque increase over the past years required new internal components to accommodate the increase.
• LB7 - 300 hp with 520 ft/lb of torque for model years 2000-2004
• LLY -- 310 hp with 605 ft/lb of torque for model years 2004-2006
• LBZ -- 360 hp with 650 ft/lb of torque for model year 2006
LBZ Improvements

To reliably achieve an increase in 50 horsepower with 45 ft/lb torque, the Duramax ™ diesel had to be revised in many areas. A few of the revisions on the 2006 LBZ were:
• New pistons with a revised compression ratio.
• Wrist pins that are larger in diameter.
• Connecting rods with added material to increase the I section strength.
• Engine block and machining changes.
• Cylinder heads.
Duramax™ Life Expectancy

The Duramax™ 6.6L V8 Turbo Diesel Engine is sold with a warranty of 100,000 miles/160,000 kilometers. The Duramax™ has been tested to survive upwards of 200,000 miles/320,000 kilometers. The Duramax™ powertrain is designed for reliability, peak horsepower and torque within its design limits. When a customer installs a power-up device, it drastically reduces the mileage ratings.
Important: Cylinder Wall Spotting (commonly referred to leopard spots) is from the induction hardening process of the top 1/3 of the cylinder wall. This is normal for the Duramax ™ Diesel.
Identifying Overpower Engine Premature Wear and Breakdown

When premature wear and breakdown is encountered due to an aftermarket power-up device, it has some very specific characteristics to the internal engine components. The following list will assist in identifying these characteristics as you tear down the engine.

http://service.gm.com/engif/000/001/771/1771277.gif
http://service.gm.com/tif.gif (http://service.gm.com/servlets/RetrieveTif?pic=1771277)

• Pistons will be cracked in the lip area, or a hole in the pistons.

http://service.gm.com/engif/000/001/771/1771279.gif
http://service.gm.com/tif.gif (http://service.gm.com/servlets/RetrieveTif?pic=1771279)

• Pistons can also be melted on the lip of the combustion bowl, or the top of the pistons can be melted.

http://service.gm.com/engif/000/001/771/1771281.gif
http://service.gm.com/tif.gif (http://service.gm.com/servlets/RetrieveTif?pic=1771281)

• Crosshatch will be polished off the cylinder wall in the major thrust face of cylinder below ring belt travel.

http://service.gm.com/engif/000/001/806/1806909.gif
http://service.gm.com/tif.gif (http://service.gm.com/servlets/RetrieveTif?pic=1806909)

• Piston pin bore will show signs of scoring, the wrist pins will be discolored, and can have oil coking on them. The connecting rod bushing surface will have accelerated wear. The above graphic illustration shows connecting rod bushing.

http://service.gm.com/engif/000/001/797/1797823.gif
http://service.gm.com/tif.gif (http://service.gm.com/servlets/RetrieveTif?pic=1797823)

• Oil coking on the underside of the piston between the wrist pin bosses.

http://service.gm.com/engif/000/001/797/1797824.gif
http://service.gm.com/tif.gif (http://service.gm.com/servlets/RetrieveTif?pic=1797824)

• Signs of bearing fretting will also be noticed on the connecting rod and main bearing caps. Refer to the above graphic illustration for fretting of main bearing cap 1 and back side of connection rod bearing 2.

http://service.gm.com/engif/000/001/771/1771284.gif
http://service.gm.com/tif.gif (http://service.gm.com/servlets/RetrieveTif?pic=1771284)

• Excessive heat in engine compartment caused by overpower device. Refer to above graphic illustration 1.
<A href="http://service.gm.com/servlets/BlobShtml?ShtmlFile=1809903&pubid=210&evc=sm#ss2-1809903">Non Overpower Engine Premature Wear and Breakdown

The following pictures show results of overheat, overspeed, low/no oil pressure or injector breakdown and how they differ from aftermarket power-up device premature wear and breakdown.
Engine Overheat

Overheat can be caused by a loss of coolant or a general cooling system failure. Some of the indicators of overheat are:

http://service.gm.com/engif/000/001/771/1771289.gif
http://service.gm.com/tif.gif (http://service.gm.com/servlets/RetrieveTif?pic=1771289)

• Melted pistons.
• Head gasket breakdown or non-function.
• Warped cylinder heads.
• Crankshaft and connecting rod discolored.
Engine Overspeed Causes

If an engine has been run faster that design capability (redline), and has caused damaged as a result, it may be a result of one of the following conditions:
• Leaking or failed turbo oil seals.
• Oil evident in the intake runners and compressor side of the turbo.
• Starting fluid use or alterative fuel added to the engine such as ether.
Engine Overspeed Results

The following are indicators that an overspeed event took place:

http://service.gm.com/engif/000/001/771/1771285.gif
http://service.gm.com/tif.gif (http://service.gm.com/servlets/RetrieveTif?pic=1771285)

• Valve train damage.
• Pushrods that are bent (4).
• Broken valve bridge buttons after cylinder head removal (2).
• Rocker arm tip damage (1).
• Dry or rusted cylinders from the use of ether, propane or nitrous oxide.

http://service.gm.com/engif/000/001/771/1771287.gif
http://service.gm.com/tif.gif (http://service.gm.com/servlets/RetrieveTif?pic=1771287)

• Piston to valve contact.
• Cam gear pin shear.
Lack of Oil Pressure

Lack of lubrication causes rapid bearing wear or bearing to seize.

http://service.gm.com/engif/000/001/771/1771291.gif
http://service.gm.com/tif.gif (http://service.gm.com/servlets/RetrieveTif?pic=1771291)

Bearing failure. Spun main bearings.
Engine Premature Wear and Breakdown Due to Improper Function of Fuel Injector

A fuel injector may fracture a piston or melt a piston but the damage will be limited to that cylinder only and all other pistons and cylinder walls are OK. In some cases hydraulic lock will occur on the suspected cylinder with an over-fueling fuel injector. Hydraulic lock on the suspected cylinder will cause a bent connecting rod. This can be verified with piston protrusion measurements.
Important: Copy aftermarket power-up kit check list when performing an engine disassembly investigation of overpower engine breakdown or non-function.
Aftermarket Power-Up Kit Check List

<LI type=1>Piston cracked parallel to wrist pin. • Piston cracked in lip area.
• Hole in piston connecting top of piston to oil cooling channel.
<LI type=1>Melted Pistons. • Lip of combustion bowl melted.
• Top of piston melted / missing.
<LI type=1>Cross hatching polished off cylinder wall. Cylinder wall missing crosshatch on major thrust face of cylinder below ring belt travel. <LI type=1>Piston pin bore, Wrist pin, and Rod bushing. • Scoring in upper piston pin boss/black discoloration/oil coking.
• Wrist Pin Wear.
• Rod bushing surface worn and discolored.
<LI type=1>Carbon coking to underside of piston. • Discoloration of underside of Piston.
• Discoloration and carbon coking buildup on underside of piston between piston pin bosses.
Accelerated rod / Main Bearing wear. • Fretting on backside of bearing.
• Bearing surface distressed.

Good thing none of us will ever come accross any of these items mentioned above, I mean, really, what were those Crazy Horsepower/Torque junkies thinking;) , do you really need all that extra Power in a truck?:muahaha:


Todd.:)

• Once installed, the calibration may mask itself with the factory original calibration ID and may remain the same.
• A Tech 2® will not positively enable you to identify the use of a power up device.
• Some companies that offer power-up devices claim increases of 150 or more horsepower and 300 or more lb/ft pounds of torque.

So, that is from GM, care to comment on this 'offical' quote "Diesel Tech"?
I have said that GM cannot tell, GM have said they cannot tell, so please, do tell?

Cheers,
Ross

So, that is from GM, care to comment on this 'offical' quote "Diesel Tech"?
I have said that GM cannot tell, GM have said they cannot tell, so please, do tell?

Cheers,
Ross
[/left]

Ross

A Tech II cannot see a Juice box and most plug and play devices,those are considered power up devices. :D

I still believe Gm with a bench loader can see a whole lot more.Perhaps I should go see my bud in Wilton that has one and see what he says.



Maybe some day ;)

__________________________________________________ ____

Dieselholic (http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/member.php?u=2519)

You will be now known as buzz kill! ):h

It clearly states -

"Once installed, the calibration may mask itself with the factory original calibration ID and may remain the same"

True, no plug-in box alters the cal I.D's, but then again, nor should a programmer, I read that as talking about flashing the ECM, not a plug in.
This bulletin went to dealers right?, so why would it not be said the special warranty police force can come around and asses the ECM for alterations?
I have a big slice of humble pie here ready to eat, just waiting for someone to hand me the spoon before it goes stale.

Cheers,
Ross

"• Cam gear pin shear."

Proof that Merchant is on to something...

What part of it are you having trouble understanding? Is it where it say it's not "will not positively " another words give you 100% assurance. All one needs to know is how to request the CVN from the ECM and match it with the TIS system data and guess what............... your busted if it has been altered but the Tech II did not not positively identify it. The operator of the Tech II had to go do some work along with the Tech II. Are your really that slow down under that you think they are going to tell the dealers everything in a public memo to boot! I guess it kind of like your statement about how all '01 customers are not getting upgraded like the '02 customers did from GM. You didn't event bother to read the TIS system updates that are list for the public on the web! Let's not also forget that they didn't say a word about............................. forget it you will learn the hard way.
I do however like the new club you have started.............. you know the "I've blown up my ECM" club. Sounds like you've got all the bugs worked out before letting it out to the consumer.
Are you finished your eating your slice of pie yet.

Duck :eek: ! bullets are starting to fly):h

Speaking of SLOW...

How's the LLY stuff doing Steve?

:D

What part of it are you having trouble understanding? Is it where it say it's not "will not positively " another words give you 100% assurance. All one needs to know is how to request the CVN from the ECM and match it with the TIS system data and guess what............... your busted if it has been altered but the Tech II did not not positively identify it. The operator of the Tech II had to go do some work along with the Tech II. Are your really that slow down under that you think they are going to tell the dealers everything in a public memo to boot! I guess it kind of like your statement about how all '01 customers are not getting upgraded like the '02 customers did from GM. You didn't event bother to read the TIS system updates that are list for the public on the web! Let's not also forget that they didn't say a word about............................. forget it you will learn the hard way.
I do however like the new club you have started.............. you know the "I've blown up my ECM" club. Sounds like you've got all the bugs worked out before letting it out to the consumer.
Are you finished your eating your slice of pie yet.

A CVN which stands for 'Calibration Verification Number' is just a simple CRC-16 (Cyclic Redundancy Checksum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_redundancy_check)) of each data segment. So, what that means is once you change ANY data in a segment (say the Engine Diagnostics) then the CRC will change and therefore the TechII will know because it does not match the CVN assigned with TIS. If you had to send your truck back for warranty and you still had an altered tune in it, yes they could tell from a CVN mismatch, no argument there.
However, YOU have been telling us for sometime now that you cannot restore an ECM to a totally stock state and the dealer could still tell it had been programmed even with the original tune back in but without ever telling us why, is the CVN the reason?, I hope not, because guess what, if you reflash the stock tune back in, the CRC-16 will compute exactly right to the TIS CVN, or am I just 'slow' again?

I am embarrassed for you that you would take a swipe at the 'reliablity' of our programming system. I think two ECM's have been killed. No fuse pulling (unless some dumb aftermarket device is installed), flash away as is (can PLII do that?).
I just did a quick search on DP and perhaps you should do the same and just let me know how many other downloaders have killed ECM's (even with fuses pulled).

Ross

Wow.. Low blow :D

The thing I don't get is this.. I've ridden in a few TTS trucks back when they were the only option, and they ran awesome. So while you were the only option out there why didn't you sell these things like gangbusters.. What was up with the waiting lists etc..? 1000.00 for an extreme, and 500 people or so dying to get them.... What gives? Couldn't you hire a zombie to program all day long?

Now that there's a few new guys in the game, efilive, lyndon, you seem pissed that you may have "missed the boat" in the whole precanned tune market. Seems like you had it by the short & curlies.

so now how many times have i mentioned this about westers, and so many posting here, saying their is no way to have a big tune for everything, now i hope yo all see that westers was their first.... a tune that will get you in the 12s at the track, tow with low smoke, low egts and great mileage, and church on sundays... nice to see efi made a tune as well

But that's what everyone is missing, and what has gotten some people pretty pissed...

EFILive is a TOOL, not a tune. It doesn't compete with what Westers or Cole sells, it allows hotrodders to compete with them.

As soon as Westers or TTS releases an advanced datalogger with bidirectional control and external inputs, that allows ECM and TCM programming with shift on the fly and programmable switching which operates on a wide range of GM products, no matter WHAT they sell will come up short. See, it's a TOOL, and nobody else sells one, EVERYONE sells tunes. ;)

I do however like the new club you have started.............. you know the "I've blown up my ECM" club. Sounds like you've got all the bugs worked out before letting it out to the consumer.

What happened to me had nothing to do with the programming of EFI Live. My truck and its ECM do not get along.

Bentley

I like the way this thread went.........a MOD should split it off and make a new thread for the off topic discussion........:rolleyes:

Anyway,

I have a good supply of stock ECM's and a spare is always nice to have around for dealer visits.

I have never had an ECM die with EFI-LIVE.........A few members may have had issues and they were all resolved quickly and without any argument or belly aching from EFI-Live............they stepped up and got it done.

The software is a tool, like any tool the person using it needs to understand what it does........anyone can do this, it just takes hard work and time invested.

This "TOOL" does more than any other right now.......as McRAT stated nobody else is offering Bidirectional control of the Allison as well as TECH II like features for TC lock, commanded gear, etc. The data logging blows TECH II datalogging away, DTC are reset with one press of the key on the keyboard.

Black Box logging is easy and in a very compact user friendly design.

I can't see why anyone else would want another product at this point.

But then again they have stepped up and delivered more in five months than any other company has delivered in five years.

The only thing they have done different is "LISTENED" and "ACTED".........:D
.
.

keep in mind one can bye a aftermarket data logger like autoenginuity for 250 dollars that does everything you want, in making a good tune as well

Oh, that's the one Westers sells right?
Hey, also, can you show me where the O2 sensors and knock sensors are on a Dmax, they found some!.

http://www.autoenginuity.com/sc-duramax-sensor-list-1.html
http://www.autoenginuity.com/sc-duramax-sensor-list-3.html

Cheers,
Ross

now i hope yo all see that westers was their first.... a tune that will get you in the 12s at the track

Who when and where?

I like the way this thread went.........a MOD should split it off and make a new thread for the off topic discussion........:rolleyes:

Anyway,

I have a good supply of stock ECM's and a spare is always nice to have around for dealer visits.

I have never had an ECM die with EFI-LIVE.........A few members may have had issues and they were all resolved quickly and without any argument or belly aching from EFI-Live............they stepped up and got it done.

The software is a tool, like any tool the person using it needs to understand what it does........anyone can do this, it just takes hard work and time invested.

This "TOOL" does more than any other right now.......as McRAT stated nobody else is offering Bidirectional control of the Allison as well as TECH II like features for TC lock, commanded gear, etc. The data logging blows TECH II datalogging away, DTC are reset with one press of the key on the keyboard.

Black Box logging is easy and in a very compact user friendly design.

I can't see why anyone else would want another product at this point.

But then again they have stepped up and delivered more in five months than any other company has delivered in five years.

The only thing they have done different is "LISTENED" and "ACTED".........:D
.
.


I guess the thread went sour with the first jab here huh? :rolleyes:


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1022571&postcount=7



Followed up here.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1023519&postcount=13

All page one!

"It's worth the wait!" Where have I heard that before?

I guess the thread went sour with the first jab here huh? :rolleyes:

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1022571&postcount=7 (http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1022571&postcount=7)


??, Lead times for exchange ECM's from GM can be pretty long unless you have a good contact like Tony who can deliever within days.

Cheers,
Ross

??, Lead times for exchange ECM's from GM can be pretty long unless you have a good contact like Tony?

Cheers,
Ross

Ross as the old saying goes,I was born at night but not last night! Same as your call out for Steve here http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1034256&postcount=42


Would it be nice or correct to have EFi-Live stand on it's own in stead of the constant comparisons?

IMO the 'tool' is there for the likes of the tuners to develop their tunes and produce significant gains. Why not allow them to be developed and stand on what they produce and be sold without the pissing contest that has been from the beginning?

Once shareware hits in the masses I guess everyone can claim to pretend to knock off a "King",someone else's words! Where will the resale be then?

To me it's childless and pointless!


By the 'tool' develop a tune gloat on what you have done.
That is a class act!




Does it really matter what has been on the market for the last 5 years or 3 to todays developments?
At one time a Bullydog pressure box was top dog!

keep in mind one can bye a aftermarket data logger like autoenginuity for 250 dollars that does everything you want, in making a good tune as well

COOL~!

Will they give me my money back if it doesn't lock 4th gear for dyno runs? :ro)

Ross as the old saying goes,I was born at night but not last night! Same as your call out for Steve here http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1034256&postcount=42


Would it be nice or correct to have EFi-Live stand on it's own in stead of the constant comparisons?

IMO the 'tool' is there for the likes of the tuners to develop their tunes and produce significant gains. Why not allow them to be developed and stand on what they produce and be sold without the pissing contest that has been from the beginning?

Once shareware hits in the masses I guess everyone can claim to pretend to knock off a "King",someone else's words! Where will the resale be then?

To me it's childless and pointless!


By the 'tool' develop a tune gloat on what you have done.
That is a class act!




Does it really matter what has been on the market for the last 5 years or 3 to todays developments?
At one time a Bullydog pressure box was top dog!


Seems Mr. Cole called Mr. Myers "slow". Steve has always been allowed to issue personal insults, while it is forbidden for others.

Now where I come from, when someone calls you stupid with the intention of getting the upper hand, you are obliged to make them look silly. Kinda like when someone throws revs at you on Friday night.

And much like Cole uses everyone else's trucks to gloat, Ross is entitled to do the same. And every other joe in the performance business.

This is a EFILive tuning forum, TTS and Westers only come in here to get their nose bloodied. ;)

I do however like the new club you have started.............. you know the "I've blown up my ECM" club. Sounds like you've got all the bugs worked out before letting it out to the consumer.
.
I would like for the Mods and Admins to stop this rampage you seem to be on with EFIlive. I seem to recall that Vendors were not to belittle and chastise eachother. But it seems your actions continue to go un-noticed.

Speaking of someone being slow, EFIlive gets there product to the consumer in about 3 days, not 3 months! So whos really the slow one?:rant:

Mackin,

Sarcasm, you obviously did not see that, never mind.

EFILive came into this market as the new guy on the block with no existing prejudice toward anyone in the Diesel market, YOU have been nothing but negative toward EFILive from the day it was released, as has Steve Cole and any Westers followers.
As the person representing EFILive I did not want to get into pissing matches over here, been there done that on the LS1 boards, but after months of snide remarks and negativity from certain people can you blame me?, so we start to join in and now I am the bad guy?.
As a mod please ask Chad, Nick etc how many times I have asked them to ban Steve or Lyndon from posting in the EFILive section even after personal attacks at me (not from Lyndon)! Never if I recall correctly. I don't have a problem with them posting in here, though, I thought the idea of the EFILive sub section was to discuss EFILive software and tuning, so how exactly do posts like this conform to those ideas?.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1008908&postcount=1
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1009858&postcount=6
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1008244&postcount=11

Unfortunately allot of Steve's posts in the EFILive section had to be removed by the moderators a few months back. :confuzeld

It gives me great pleasure seeing the Duramax tuning market open up new opportunities to tuners from all walks of life, I wonder If Tony ever thought he would be where he is today 6 months ago, or JK, Bobo, the list goes on.
Myself and Paul produce this software, 15 - 17 hours a day we work on it from support to packing boxes. So when I see the users of EFILive producing tunes that are better in all aspects than those who continuously take swipes at me and EFILive and and our customers it makes me want to remind them of the fact they have been beaten, because I know that is where it hurts most.

Cheers,
Ross

this might be a good time for efi supporters to start their own fourm.... does not efi have their own fourm:ro) ):h ):h life was so simple before

someday i might be a efi runner, for now i will let the provens take care of it for me

Ross

I see you like to pull a single post out of a long list of them. As with any single post you can make it look like what you want with out all the others there. Are you not the one that came here and tried to tell everyone the 2001 OS was no good and that it was not updated like the 2002 OS was? Then Tony jumped on the band wagon about the 2001 OS when in truth he does not event know what an OS is nor what it does. Were you not the one that brought up boost tables and how they look in the code when the truth is they do nothing in and LB7 equipped engine? Were you not also the one that has told people it's OK to look at others work with your tool as it's not a problem when you and I both know that it is? You like to say your tool software is copyrighted so I guess your OK if someone was to make a new copy of it and begin selling it right.......................... I think not.

If you want to play nice then tell the truth and stand by others copyrights as well as your own. Then bring real facts and not false sales hype and you will not here anything from me.

Do I even need to explain why this was shut down? :rolleyes: Cripes though......quite a few posts....1/2 a page poped up in the time it took for me to get around to getting it shut down :eek:

Take the night off and come back to this... I split the thread (with the intent of doing some cleanup), dealt with some things in my real life, and come back to it closed with several additional posts.

For the record, Ross has never asked that we remove Steve from this forum and quite frankly he doesn't have that right. We gave EFI their own forum because it was a completely new product that we didn't have an area for and we knew it would take off like wildfire... just look at the number of threads and posts in the last three months.

Steve was asked very early on not to participate in this forum for obvious reasons. When it was found that him and his product were being referenced numerous times we made the choice to let him in.

Take a look back in this thread and the one it was split off of: Steve did not respond to at least two snide remarks regarding him and his product. He did respond technically (and completely unrelated to EFI) in the Moonshine thread. He didn't respond directly until asked to by Ross. If you don't want his opinion don't ask for it. The post was allowed to stand since Ross asked for it... Had Ross not requested Steve's participation the exact same post would have been deleted due to it's abusive nature.

Those of you that think this staff has a special interest with Steve DROP IT. There is no special interest. More of us use EFI at this point than anything TTS makes. Steve is another vendor of this forum just as Ross is and we do our best to make sure they get along.

If we close a thread as was done here everyone cries that we're censoring or protecting someone. If we let it run everyone cries that we're showing favortism. Lighten up a bit on the staff. We're trying to provide you guys with a good, free web site to discuss something we all have in common. Things don't always run smoothly (in fact, every day we deal with at least one significant problem). Today's issue is EFI/TTS. Tomorrow's will probably be back to the LLY Overheaters. Day after will probably be Smoop/Wade... Trust me, there's always something.

From a staff viewpoint Steve's comments in this thread were clearly out of line. By the same token Ross and Tony, among a few others, also had posts with comments that were as far out of line AND they threw the first punch.

Here's what it boils down to folks: Stop comparing TTS to EFI. They're two completely different products. There's really no reason for them to be compared. There is really no need for the Extreme to be mentioned in this forum. There's no reason for comments about the history of TTS, the delays in shipping, the cost, the power, or anything else TTS related in this forum.

If you don't want Steve in this forum don't discuss or reference him or his products. And I definitely recommend NOT asking him for his take on something if you don't want it...