Can you bomb up an 8.1L as much as a Duramax without having to worry about blowing it? I know the Duramax has put out some pretty impressive HP numbers, but will the 8.1 do the same? It seems like a 496 cu inch engine should be capable of a lot.

Blower (Big one!)

Nitrous (Lots of it)

Cam

Pistons

Heads

Intake

Exhaust


Adding all this will easily out power a Duramax. But you'll loose ALL driveability/streetability, and will cost you close to $10,000+

Nothing beats a Duramax for cheap reliable/driveable power. Where else can you plug in a few wires and gain 150hp and close to 400 ft/lbs of torque for under $1000?

I agree. If you want big power and big torque the Duramax is the only way to go. The new LLY's are awesome.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

A radix blower and L.T. headers.That will be good for at least 400-450 rwhp.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

First I know the Dmax's are just silly with horsepower, but seem to me that you pay $5500-$6000 for a Dmax plus extra $1200 for an allison trans if you want it. Then put another $1000 or so into mods to get silly horsepower doing it right.


Total $8000 Just for Dmax with auto and mods and no mention that this a popular engine choice, will be paying top dollar.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


Now take 8100 HD, $660 for engine up. remember that a 8.1 can come with the 4L85E at no charge.(not sure on that).


Total $660 for 8100 HD with auto


take $8000 - $660 = $7340 for on the 8.1


list the possible 8.1 mods:


$4000 for Turbo and Intercooler


Exhaust $800


trans $1500


turbo cam $500


ECU programming $1000


High flow heads $2700


Intake $700


Total $11200.00 With about a easliy 1000 hp on 93 or 91 pump or with selectable boost go with 103 race gas at the track with a very respectable 1400+hp possibly lots more. Also remember that you could probably pickup an 8.1 HD for a Good Low price Since their are not a popular engine choice. And mileage would 1-3mph less if you stay out of the boost. All remember that the 8.1 comes from the marine division of GM. And Have set new Higher levels of performance and reliblity


I base this info my window sticker off my truck and on build ups of 400+cubic inch Small blocks with twin turbo that basically run on the street with engine idle close to stock. Their range is 800hp to 1000hp on the street.They are good Rice Killers. I seen and experience a corvette with a 450ci with twin turbos that has dyno'ed at 980hp on 93 pump gas and around 1350 on race gas. MMMMMMMMM horsepower MMMMMMMM


I'd spend the extra 3000+grand and have 1400+ horsepower and a easy 1000hp on the street.


That my .02cents

Quick.....Pinch yourself! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

Wake up....You must be dreaming! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


What you say could be done....buy why?


Also, the only truck you can get a 4L85E in behind the 8.1 is the Suburban.

All others use the Allsion.

Not true you can get alvanche with the 8.1 and 4L85E and there 2500HD 8.1 4L85E sit on the lot in my hometown.


No I am not dreaming, Soon has The truck is payed for, say hello turbo!! And then watch Diesels a Gasser coming to get you!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

True about the Avalanche. I often forget about them (for good reason!) when talking about trucks.

But....I am a doubting Thomas. I'm gonna need proof of that 2500HD with 8.1 and 4L85E.

Unless it's a ONE-OFF Factory test mule, it was NEVER offered in a pickup behind the 8.1L.

Sorry Just checked gmbuypower.com and with that dealer it was a 6.0 the dealer ad was printed wrong. But been thinking about switching trannys anyway, since the 4L85E put more power to the ground than the allison. And please don't tell that it is weaker than allison, cause its basically turbo 400 with overdrive. Besides I bought my truck brand new for $26,000.00 (2001 2500HD 8100 allison LS 4x4) Same truck with the diesel(same color even) went for 33,000.00


7000G's to throw at the 8.1


Whether you buy a diesel or gas, when modded it you end up at about the same price dollar wise for total truck cost.


It just if you want 1000+hp or 1000+ftlbs


Lawnboy: why do all this stuff to an 8.1 then why do this to a dmax?


If you say that you buy it and just add chip that easy, no work. It because I enjoy building stuff with my two hands, greater pride and value. This I am currently building an 1953 Chevrolet thriftmaster pickup with a 632ci with one big cam for now(I have alway wanted one)from the ground up. which in current form is at 850hp normally asp. and not done yet. I have been told just buy one completed, what fun would that be?


What you can do to a dmax you can do to a chev big block!


Gasser coming for you!


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gifEdited by: 8100hammer

what kind of streetability are you gonna get with that 1000 hp 8.1? Oh, your not.. ok. When you weight out the cost difference between the two,your only talking 4g or so.. You pay the 1200 for the ally either way. I get 17mpg with my ~425 rwhp diesel and have less then a grand into it for 'extras' http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

You got the 8.1 beat there far as mileage goes but I don't think 17mpg when you on full boil. The question was can you bomb the 8.1 as much as the dmax. Yes with a few hard parts you can. But a bombed 8.1 as you guys here call it, it will out accerate the diesel, this why they use them is drag racing( gas motor) Yes I know there pro and con to the gas motor.


On the street, you to pick a book on how make cams.


gasser coming for you!!!

Gasser comin for me now or laterhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Sleepy.gif? Super Diesels comin for you nowhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif!! Edited by: Super Diesel

the Gasser with be coming alot later, Currently money is going towards 1953 Chevy truck with 632ci big block. The engine has recently sapped most of the cash on hand. Next is to cage it. Then to build 4L80E to stand behind it(this part is going to be a tough one). 1953 chevy is one gasser that will blow your doors off at half throttle, So diesel make sure that your doors are welded shut for safety!!!!!


Later than sooner a Gasser will be pulling past!!!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gifEdited by: 8100hammer

Is it 4wd? Those are definitly major money pits. I've built a few things in my day, So I know what you mean. The ugly word of the month is STOCK. Super Diesel

NO, only two wheels of terror. I am building it as a ego killer thats why it says 305 ci on the side of the hood. My buddy(does not know about engines) has 2002 camero ss, basically the Reason why building a 632 ci , it always camero this camero that SS this SS that. Time is coming soon to do some f-body and stang hunting.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Hammer, quit screwing around and put the 632 in your 01, or find another truck w/ motor trouble and put it in.


Eric, what happened to the Ramjet 572 (i think that was right #)?


Dad wants to put one in his farm truck.

It is very tempting to, But right now the 8.1 is my daily driver. Plus I have to keep thinking house. Just had a baby girl last oct. I must think house. It will be a while yet before anything happens.


These diesel guys think to you can't have big power out of a gas motor and still be very streetable. But a 572 come out of the crate with 700 hp. wow!!!


besides the 53 when complete could those diesel anyday of week with only 2-wheel drive!!hahaha

Heres a good question. I don't have a diesel yet but I am wondering if you could tell me whoever says that an 8.1 as modded hp wise as a Dmax can get as good fuel mileage. Also trailer pulling ease. Longevity of the motors with power mods. And so onhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Smile.gif P.S, I would hope if I got a Duramax it would be better fuel mileage(this is with some air and box and straight pipe mods) than my 96 Z71 ext cab with 4" susp. lift 33x12.5x15 tires and exhaust,throttle body spacer.

The diesels not only get better fuel mileage, they make more power doin it becase they are a more efficient engine design. Diesel has more power in it per gallon than gasoline and they last four to five times or more longer than gas doin it becase of the tough build need for the diesels. Gas had its place, it's just not dug yet. Oh, I almost forgot. The price of my fuel just went up to .47 cents in my garage last night. Thank the good lord you can make diesel fuel out of old cooking oil in the garage. Super Diesel Edited by: Super Diesel

How long will your diesel last at 750hp and 1200ftlbs setting on your module. I say we go out for a 30 mile race. and see what happens.





diesel- 1600 degrees egt - mile out- melted


gas - using more fuel - still pulling hard for the 30 miles and more

Well back on planet earth my diesel will still last years longer than the gas, sorry to dissapoint you. Who says I will be pulling 1600? You know the big rigs and the Union Pacific use diesels for a reason. What about the big ocean liners, the yatchs, the big tractors, and countless others in high demand situations. If I need to cool it down, I just water mist it (or install a bigger turbo) and your still playing catch up. If you want the big power, well..... Like I said, gas had its place but........ Sad but true. As for the gas still pullin hard 30 miles out, you might need to install a Allison Aircraft engine for that. It's a new world, diesel dominate in the truck pulling world for a reason. Super Diesel Edited by: Super Diesel

So what are your egts when pulling at a truck pull? Then how come dmax diesel are not use for boat racing, nascar, spint car, jet boat racing, mud running, monster trucks.


Reason diesels last longer is because they run lower rpms and the fuel also lubicates. Where gas does not lubicate like diesel and also run higher rpm. As far as trucks and tractors and ocean liniers go their motor increase in size by ten fold to make big horsepower. notice they don't take a juiced dmax and put it in tractors.


And yes the 8.1 can handle as much "bombing" as the dmax!!


Just need to build it right, and you will far surrpass the dmax in the horsepower column.


so what are your egts when on full boil setting and wot and pulling hard????

8100 Hammer , You sound like your about ready to kick some @$$ over this topic. Everyone knows that a diesel is better for pulling things and last longer on the motor. But there will always be the true places for gas engines everywhere. These Duramax guys and all the others are figuring out that you can make good power from a Diesel engine nowadays. I am considering getting a Duramax in a couple years after they come out with more toys hopefully. I am a Chevy man and I would have a gas truck or a diesel. It all comes down to it, What engine truly came first in an automobile? Either one is good It's your choice what you want to do with it when you get it.

No I am not mad or angry. Just that 8100 vortec has a lot horsepower in it. I just don't need a diesel telling that the 8100 is not a good powerplant. Just think how a duramax would feel without that turbo! Out of all the tractor pulls I have seen It is usually the tractor that is burning alch. or methnol that out pulls its diesel counterpart.


Just don't like dmax's telling me that they make 700hp just by adding modules and spray. But somehow I will lose driveablity when I take an hp3 8100 vortec crate motor that burns 87 octane and makes 525hp out of the crate. now add supercharger or turbo to that combo. figure 40% increase in power with the right parts , thats 735hp. A combo that will run a day long, still no spray, or water mist.


Streetablity- factory smooth expect for hand of god like power surge.


yeah I will need a new tranny, but so will the 700hp duramax


And yes the 8.1 can handle as much "bombing" as the dmax!!

I hope your not yelling at me about it. I don't have a Duramax, I have a 96 Z71 ext yellcab 5.7 dual exhaust 4" lift. I know the 8.1 has alot of power and more you can put into it also. If I can make up my mind and either stay with my gas or get a Dmax I wouldnt add liquid power or cool mist too it. I would put a box and intake and straight pipt it and maybe put tranny stuff later on. I don't want to make you mad if I was but I'm not for competeing for who has the bigger engine on the street. I would just smoke out the rice grinders and such. It's all goodhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

Easy does it killer. I'm just messin with ya. Two words, deep breaths. I have gas powered vehicles of my own. I don't need any spray either or N2O. However it is a fact of life that diesels do have turbos and they are easy builers, more so than gas engines. Z71 Griz is right, gas will always have a place. I just know for a fact that a gasser built to out power a full tilt diesel just wont last very long, or if it will even be street leagal afterwards. Relax, at least it's a GM. Super Diesel

Your exactly right Super Diesel. How much power do you have for yours running the Bio? There is a Sunrise around my town and you can get bio there I don't off hand how much it is because I don't need to go over that way to often. If I get a Dmax I'll run it after a while every so often. When I get my Duramax I would do a few things right then like afe intake and pipe it and then a box of some sort. By the time I get one you would think they will have things out for them like they do for Cummins wouldnt you. It wouldnt be stock I'll tell you that.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif

I don't know how much is on tap. I only water mist at the track when i need an extra 65-70 HP and need to cool it down to around 1250 or so. The N2O dosn't take it down much like they say. It is an oxygenator. It's cold, but what happens when you add oxygen to a fire? I does give an additional 125-140 HP though. Here in the Mile high city, oxygen is thinner so we tend to run higher EGT and a little lower HP. Never said the 8.1 wasn't a good power plant. And the reason there not in boat racing yet or that other stuff (there is a diesel NASCAR from Ford) is because the performance out of them is relatively new, but they are experimenting with it as we speak. GM is trying two high powered duramaxes in a boat out in the ocean instead of three gassers. Better fuel mileage and longer life and much cleaner when running Biodiesel. Biodesel is biodegradeable, so if you have a fuel spill the fish will just get fat. It's less toxic than table salt. Super Diesel Edited by: Super Diesel

Can a Duramax drive normally compared to a gas truck, 6.0,8.1, or my 5.7. I mean like turning a corner from driving and accelerating up to speed normally. Does it have throw you back in the seat power if you just driving along and you "punch it" up to the red line. Thank's Adam

Adam, I've been in plenty bombed diesels....and the answer to your question is yes..."throw you back in your seat power" they are very impressive...but then again so is a force-fed 8.1http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif


8.1http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Thank's for that. I was almost giving up hopehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Smile.gif

The diesels not only get better fuel mileage, they make more power doin it becase they are a more efficient engine design. Diesel has more power in it per gallon than gasoline and they last four to five times or more longer than gas doin it becase of the tough build need for the diesels. Gas had its place, it's just not dug yet. Oh, I almost forgot. The price of my fuel just went up to .47 cents in my garage last night. Thank the good lord you can make diesel fuel out of old cooking oil in the garage. Super Diesel


That's an interesting claim. Considering that GM rates the 6.0, 8.1 and DMax as 200K mile engines, how do you figure the DMax will last longer than a gasser?





Bert

Why do you think semis use diesel rather than gas engines? Diesel is an fuel oil which lubes the engine, gas is not. GM also knows that the diesel will probably be used much more for pullin big loads than the gasser. Why do semis go 800,000 to 1,000,000 miles between rebuilds? I've run trucks, it's a fact. The diesels will last much longer under a 600 to 700 HP power build than the gassers of the same power. Why is a diesel engine much heavier? Not for balast. That's just a rough estimate for the average diesel. Gassers are really lucky to make it that far on only moderate useage. I've used gassers hard too. The reason for the better fuel milage is because of the efficiency of the engine and the power per gallon contained in diesel. When we build the diesels with big power, we shorten it's life span. In this case, we can add Biodiesel which is much higher in lubricity to again extend the life 3 to 4 time of the modern super diesels. It would no doubt raise the life of a stocker as long as the electrics and such would hold out. So of course GM isn't going to advertize a huge life span that is possible with a diesel. The sales would fall on the gassers. Plus if GM advertized this about Biodiesel, and every ones engins were lasting that much longer, GMs sales would fall. Less revenue. They would then have to do something else to sabotage the life spans to keep sales up. Super Diesel

Just wondering how does this biodiesel hold up during 3+weeks of -40 below weather. Everyone I work with that has a diesel had problems with gelling this winter and ended up walking home at 5am at -40. Me and my " inefficent" gasser(haha) start up without being plugged in and home we went. Of couse if I wanted to use outlet to plug my truck in, I could not, the diesels live in fear of cold weather, and all the outlets were full of diesels. Until I can fill up with bio-diesel and not worry about gelling and quality of fuel at gas station so I don't get a batch that does gell (this happen to my dad several times) and yes I know about winter diesel and #1,and #2. I will be sticking with dino fuel in the form of gasoline.


With that said. I am not doubting diesel efficent operation. I know My dad tells me about his duramax mileage all the time.


Then why can't they make one non-turbo diesel have 350hp and 500ftlb??? and put that in the suv's and half-tons. What would they get for mileage?


As far as efficiency of the engine of a diesel, Doesn't a diesel have heavier rotating assembly which takes more power to turn? Beside what is really different about the basic design?


Diesel : piston,heads with valves, crank,cam,pushrods or ohc


gas: piston,heads with valves, crank,cam,pushrods or ohc


difference: induction and injection.


Efficiency come from the way diesel burns at much slower rate than gas. Cause when diesel burns inside the chamber, it burns and expands for a longer portion of the stroke, hence more force. Until I can get a 350ci diesel normal asp. with 350hp. and 440ftlbs. With be stick with gas solution, or until hydrogen comes out(the real way to go).





And yes the 8100 vortec can handle more "bombing" than the Duramax!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Why do you think semis use diesel rather than gas engines? Diesel is an fuel oil which lubes the engine, gas is not. GM also knows that the diesel will probably be used much more for pullin big loads than the gasser. Why do semis go 800,000 to 1,000,000 miles between rebuilds? I've run trucks, it's a fact. The diesels will last much longer under a 600 to 700 HP power build than the gassers of the same power. Why is a diesel engine much heavier? Not for balast. That's just a rough estimate for the average diesel. Gassers are really lucky to make it that far on only moderate useage. I've used gassers hard too. The reason for the better fuel milage is because of the efficiency of the engine and the power per gallon contained in diesel. When we build the diesels with big power, we shorten it's life span. In this case, we can add Biodiesel which is much higher in lubricity to again extend the life 3 to 4 time of the modern super diesels. It would no doubt raise the life of a stocker as long as the electrics and such would hold out. So of course GM isn't going to advertize a huge life span that is possible with a diesel. The sales would fall on the gassers. Plus if GM advertized this about Biodiesel, and every ones engins were lasting that much longer, GMs sales would fall. Less revenue. They would then have to do something else to sabotage the life spans to keep sales up. Super Diesel


I have no arguement with the efficiency of a diesel. They will always get better fuel consumption numbers than gassers under similar conditions. BUT, the rest of your argement simply does not hold water. The reason that the OTR diesels are heavy is not because they are diesel but because they are heavy duty engines. If you were to build a gasser with the same power and longevity rating, it would weigh very close to the same amount as the diesels. And, they would last exactly the same length of time if used under the same conditions and maintained to the same level. Also, the diesels being discussed in these forums are light duty engines, just like the gassers. They are not heavy duty ones like the OTR ones.





As for the lubricity of diesel fuel, while true, what difference does it make? What parts of a diesel engine are exposed to the fuel? I think that people over rate the implications of the fact that diesel fuel is a lubricant. Look at what happened to the PSD's when the diesel fuel got into their crank case. In many cases, the engine was destroyed. You can bet your bottom dollar that if GM or Ford could claim that the diesel engines they have in their pikups will last even 1.5 times a gasser, they would advertise that very loudly. Of the big three, only the Cummins is rated as a medium duty engine and is rated accordingly (around 300K - 400K before rebuild). The DMax and PSD are light duty and are rated as such - 200K life expectancy just like the gassers which are also rated as light duty.





BertEdited by: BertP

Gasoline contains 125,000 mega jules of energy per gallon. Diesel contains 146,000 mega jules per gallon (check it out). You will probably never see any more nonturboed diesel in trucks for our useage. Why is Hydro the way to go. Not much energy contained there at this point. I wouldn't hold your breath for it. Tell me about the price of gas at the end of summer. Oh, never mind, I'll see it. Why would you not want a compressor on an engine that uses it so wellhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif. At -40 bellow I'm inside not outside gettin warm, other than that, I've herd of diesels driving around in much colder temp than that as long as the fuel is moving to the tank and back. There are ways around it if need be. I don't know if you noticed or not, but most all gassers are injected in this modern day. Why be so negative towards the new erea of the super Diesel? Check out the June issue of Four Wheeler Mag. page 26. Thats my buds there. I'll bow out to simplicity. Super Diesel

Gasoline contains 125,000 mega jules of energy per gallon. Diesel contains 146,000 mega jules per gallon (check it out). You will probably never see any more nonturboed diesel in trucks for our useage. Why is Hydro the way to go. Not much energy contained there at this point. I wouldn't hold your breath for it. Tell me about the price of gas at the end of summer. Oh, never mind, I'll see it. Why would you not want a compressor on an engine that uses it so wellhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif. At -40 bellow I'm inside not outside gettin warm, other than that, I've herd of diesels driving around in much colder temp than that as long as the fuel is moving to the tank and back. There are ways around it if need be. I don't know if you noticed or not, but most all gassers are injected in this modern day. Why be so negative towards the new erea of the super Diesel? Check out the June issue of Four Wheeler Mag. page 26. Thats my buds there. I'll bow out to simplicity. Super Diesel


I don't think anyone is being negative. I just questioned your claim that a DMax will last 4 to 5 times longer than a gasser. Even GM claims that that is not true. I have a gasser now but I plan on getting a diesel. Not because of longevity issues, though, because unless you are talking about the Cummins, its a wash.





On the issue of fuel injection, that is not new. It has been around on gassers since the 20's or 30's. The technology did not exist until relatively recently to make it as reliable as a carb, but injection systems have existed for a very long time.





Bert

See in my world I go to work so the pickup is park for 12+hours. And gas is not sloshing around all time. So if I have a diesel and have to drive all time just to keep it working how good is that? Say that your duramax will last a 1 million miles with no major repair with it all juiced up? I say not. Simplicty you say: gas to carb or injector then to combustion chamber. Diesel to transfer pump to high pressure pump to injector then combustion chamber. The reason I say hydrogen is that water vapor and CO2 emissons are it. I know that this a long way off, but system could collect water vapor from the exhaust and back into the sytem, self-filling to a point that at some point would have to refill. Not to mention that one could bump the compression ratio way up since the fuel is already in a gas state, plus cooling from the hydrogen decompressing into the gas state.


Now on with fuel wars!!!!

First I know the Dmax's are just silly with horsepower, but seem to me that you pay $5500-$6000 for a Dmax plus extra $1200 for an allison trans if you want it. Then put another $1000 or so into mods to get silly horsepower doing it right.


Total $8000 Just for Dmax with auto and mods and no mention that this a popular engine choice, will be paying top dollar.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


Now take 8100 HD, $660 for engine up. remember that a 8.1 can come with the 4L85E at no charge.(not sure on that).


Total $660 for 8100 HD with auto


take $8000 - $660 = $7340 for on the 8.1


list the possible 8.1 mods:


$4000 for Turbo and Intercooler


Exhaust $800


trans $1500


turbo cam $500


ECU programming $1000


High flow heads $2700


Intake $700


Total $11200.00 With about a easliy 1000 hp on 93 or 91 pump or with selectable boost go with 103 race gas at the track with a very respectable 1400+hp possibly lots more. Also remember that you could probably pickup an 8.1 HD for a Good Low price Since their are not a popular engine choice. And mileage would 1-3mph less if you stay out of the boost. All remember that the 8.1 comes from the marine division of GM. And Have set new Higher levels of performance and reliblity


I base this info my window sticker off my truck and on build ups of 400+cubic inch Small blocks with twin turbo that basically run on the street with engine idle close to stock. Their range is 800hp to 1000hp on the street.They are good Rice Killers. I seen and experience a corvette with a 450ci with twin turbos that has dyno'ed at 980hp on 93 pump gas and around 1350 on race gas. MMMMMMMMM horsepower MMMMMMMM


I'd spend the extra 3000+grand and have 1400+ horsepower and a easy 1000hp on the street.


That my .02cents

First I know the Dmax's are just silly with horsepower, but seem to me that you pay $5500-$6000 for a Dmax plus extra $1200 for an allison trans if you want it. Then put another $1000 or so into mods to get silly horsepower doing it right.


Total $8000 Just for Dmax with auto and mods and no mention that this a popular engine choice, will be paying top dollar.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


Now take 8100 HD, $660 for engine up. remember that a 8.1 can come with the 4L85E at no charge.(not sure on that).


Total $660 for 8100 HD with auto


take $8000 - $660 = $7340 for on the 8.1


list the possible 8.1 mods:


$4000 for Turbo and Intercooler


Exhaust $800


trans $1500


turbo cam $500


ECU programming $1000


High flow heads $2700


Intake $700


Total $11200.00 With about a easliy 1000 hp on 93 or 91 pump or with selectable boost go with 103 race gas at the track with a very respectable 1400+hp possibly lots more. Also remember that you could probably pickup an 8.1 HD for a Good Low price Since their are not a popular engine choice. And mileage would 1-3mph less if you stay out of the boost. All remember that the 8.1 comes from the marine division of GM. And Have set new Higher levels of performance and reliblity


I base this info my window sticker off my truck and on build ups of 400+cubic inch Small blocks with twin turbo that basically run on the street with engine idle close to stock. Their range is 800hp to 1000hp on the street.They are good Rice Killers. I seen and experience a corvette with a 450ci with twin turbos that has dyno'ed at 980hp on 93 pump gas and around 1350 on race gas. MMMMMMMMM horsepower MMMMMMMM


I'd spend the extra 3000+grand and have 1400+ horsepower and a easy 1000hp on the street.


That my .02cents




A few things forgotten. Also needed for longevity imo. A better cooling system hp is going to make heat.Extra oil capacity. Fuel ie bigger injecters computer can only adjust for so much. Lower compression pistons (dont know what the 8.1 comes with)but turbos require less compression.(could this be handled with bigger chambered heads?) Better rods and crankshaft to hold extra hp over a long period of time. to do some of these the engine would require removal and a machine shop would be required for balancing and fitting and asembly unless your going to put together yourself(more exspense not figured in). Nothing wrong with gas engines just dont think your going to build a streetable 1000-1300hp truck.

Nope it never going to happen. 8.1 twin turbo what a foolish idea? now a twin turbo duramax there an idea. OH yeah, right around 750hp+ the rods start bending. And My dad's 02 duramax has a basic banks kit with a module for 90extra hp, and he really has blow by, it only had 30k miles on it. So you are going to have pull the duramax to build it strong anyways for 1000hp+ duty. Far as cooling, already have problems with the truck running cold when its below 45degrees. Heck If I were to run without cold fronts in winter, the truck would never get past 160 degrees and the trans temp would never get around 70 degrees.


I guess all those twin turboed ls1's that put out 900+hp that I see on a weekend basis and streetable are figments of my mind. how foolish of me. Here a test for you duramax guys take that turbo off, and tune for 400hp and 550ftlbs. and see what it takes and mpg numbers. That funny thing is 2006 Z06 is coming with a 7 liter small block that put outs 550-575hp normally asp. I bet that has no streetalbity, I mean GM put out a sport car that can't idle down to under 2000 rpm. I think not. This is not the 60's now is it. A lot more cam tech and understanding. Need a lesson, only a mag away. hotrod,super chevy,chevy high,gm high tech. Pick one up when they do cam basics articles. You will learn a lot.


Now I think that if a twin turbo small block can make big power and be streetable. What could a guy do with 8.1 liters of motor that is twin turboed. Please don't tell that none of you has ever thought how cool it would be to have 502 big block that has twin turbos and on the outside of the truck you have SS350 labeled cowl of hood.


But I have to admit to be fair, that I am starting to side to the diesel side of things. I have been reseaching major go-fast parts for the 8.1, have come to the idea that no one cares, it seem like all attention is going to small blocks and the diesels. I even see this with other guys V10's just not much for fast parts. I hope it not a mpg thing cause I have yet to come up against a small block, 5.3, 5.4, 6.0, 5.7hemi, that I can't go toe to toe with on mpg.But if someone were to build an stroke dmax, let say 500ci with twin turbos. hp well north of 1200 hp, torque 1900++, I will be joining the diesel way forever.


that my .02centsEdited by: 8100hammer

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Now you know better than that, your truck didn't sticker at $ 26,000 and nobody is going to pay $ 39,000 for that one.





Mine trucks MSRP was about $38,000 as well, but I was out the door for $26,200 + tax, so discounts do happen on D-max trucks too.

I know D@# well That you did not buy your truck out the door for 26000.00, I can even find used one for that price. 02 and 03 used ones go for 29k to 34k around here. Then there must be a cr@# market around here. D@#

I orderred mine and paid 2% over invoice (on a 2WD, 6 speed D-max, which is just about the same MSRP as a similar 4x4, Allison w/ 8.1L) when I picked it upon 2/21/02.


less $2002 "overdrive" rebate . . . which anyone would have gotten at the time, $1000 "fuel tank" certificate, for ownign my '74 GMC on just the right day, $500 "Talk it up" rebate courtesy of Howard "Pontiac_m18" and $5296.23 in GM Card discount.


No dealer and handling fees. Including tax and 60 day tag it was $26,901.61. (paid for with $1500 trade from my 88 Volvo with 189000 miles and $25,401.61 transfer.).


Maybe I shouldn't be claiming the GM Card points as a discount, but they weren't exchangable for cash and I didn't pay anything to get them, yet that amount was deducted from my truck.





I just ran Kelly Blue Book on it an they say it would still retail at $32,450http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif and private party at $27,480. Even though that's more than I spent for it I can't replace it for the same $$$ because some of those deals were one time only and the GM card balance isn't high enough yet.


By the time I'm ready to sell it it won't be worth much . . . like that Volvo it'll be 10 - 15 years old with a pile of miles on it. . . maybe even older casue that's when the boys ( 3 and 6 now) will be in college. I'm expecting over 250,000 miles, that's why I bought the diesel. I figured fuel and maintenance would pay the surcharge in about 65,000 miles assuming $1.00 gallon fuel (My first and cheapest tank was $1.019/gallon). Now with both gas and diesel pushing $2.00/gallon I'm feeling even better about my choice.


By the way, mine makes power approximately equal to a stock 8.1L, because it's still stock. My father-in-law has an 8100 . . . they pull about the same but he burns more fuel . . . he'd say "they pull about the same but the Kid's smells bad" It's all a matter of personal prefference, and they're both great trucks. WAY better than anything either of us owned before.


OK, I'll also admit that he was able to drive the price down on his to dead invoice . . . it had been on the lot for 6 months. Somebody else ordered it (2WD) and backed out. Between us we probably own half the 2WD 2500HDs in Weld County.

I am not saying it cant be done just not for the amt. you quoted.And would still not be streetable. Add a intercooler in front of your raidiater for turbo and cooling system will get warm. Most of the parts you want to use are probelly not mainstreem and would be one off and very exspensive. I personly dont think a duramax could be durable and streetable over say 650 to 700 hp and again internal parts failure rods, crank would be the problem. Compairing a small block to a big block with turbo doesnt hold out because of the amount of air needed to pack the cylinders twin turbos probally needed. As I stated more things would need changed for durability. And after you change heads intake pistons crank rods cam ecm injecters oil pan among other things what part of the 8.1 is left. 1000 to 1300 hp isnt cheap and isnt going to be very streetable in a stock suspension truck whether it be in a diesel or gas engine.

Once again creativity, STOP BY NA sayers. I am Done. See you later.

In the mean time to aswer the original question, MAYBE. With deep enough pockets, and some ingenuity. Untill then, we'll keep waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting,and waiting, and waiting, and waiting.....................I would love to see a good 8.1 come out and teach us a lesson at the pulling fields. You know, put us in our place. We are getting kind of cocky any way. Super Diesel

. Besides I bought my truck brand new for $26,000.00 (2001 2500HD 8100 allison LS 4x4) Same truck with the diesel(same color even) went for 33,000.00


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif








I paid 28,000 for the truck in my sig, new, 5000 in rebates essentially made the diesel free. There is no way a 900 hp 8.1 in a truck is gonna see 16 mpg like you think.

NO way your diesel make 18+mpg at 700hp setting 12 mpg might be a stretch. By the way how much does a duramax crate motor cost complete? How long can you substain 700hp+ full thottle on a stock dmax motor, turbo,injectors(no adders), and how dependable is going to be at those power levels???????????????


I say: short bursts(5 mins max) and not very!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif


my 8100 has substain full thottle opeation for close to 30 minutes at a time, out wheeling in the weeds the kinda area(or bye bye truck) that you don't want to stop an let the pistons cool like your juiced dmax would have to.


The comment was made that duramax can be turning down to lower power level. I can do the same as diesel, once I have a turbo. Boost controller!!!


Wickedsprint: why didn't you price a 8.1,ally combo, or maybe the lower asking price plus 5000 in rebates would made the 8.1 cheaper than your diesel. And also I brought mine to early, before all this rebate nonsence, plus I do not have a GM card, and never will.


Point of the question was Will the 8100 handle has much bombing as the duramax. And the answer is yes. Just needs to build for pressurize Duty. Granted the dmax already is and you pay for it. Bring a 8.1 up to par for turbo apps, will cost about the same. Besides a 5.3 vortec stock with 10+psi and ally injection, can lay down 550 rwhp from 324ci. dial back the boost to 5psi for on the street. I currently make 14mpg in town and 16 to 16.7 on the highway at 80mphEdited by: 8100hammer

im not sure on a dmax, but my best friends 12 valve cummins is dynoed at 567 horse and he still gets 22 miles to the gallon. and i believe that gm is working on a nonturboed dmax, probably a v6, to put in the suburbans. the old 6.2 liter non turbo diesels used to get 25 miles to the gallon.

Without trying to ruffle feathers I'd like to add my observations:

IMHO, the 6.0, 8.1 and 6.6 Duramax are phenominal engines. I've been researching the 8.1L vs the 6.6L Duramax for almost 6-8 months now. It's not been an easy task.

I come from the Impala SS world where when you step on the gas, you go, and you go very fast. Some of my older 8 cyl GM gassers (1980) have near 170k on them and are near 25 years old and still run great and don't burn ANY oil (body ain't that pretty though--but here in the rust belt, not much you can do). It's mostly all in how you maintain them.

What I have found is that you can surely buy an 8.1L for less than you can comp equipped Duramax. Though the 8.1L clearly eats more gas to do the job, it has similar power overall (not quoting RPM to RPM here). The engine in the Duramax is a bit more robust--and it has to since the compression in a Diesel is far greater than that of a gasser. Case in point, remember when GM took the 350 and magically made it a diesel...blocks cracked, etc. So yes, both engines will last a long time, but the diesel is specifically engineered for far great abuses internally which can be seen as a longevity bouns....however a good maintained gasser can last 200k or more...seen it may times...hell a buddy at work here had a 1987 Accord with 320k on it...all orig, so it can be done.

I have seen used 02 and 03 Duramax units for sale between $29k and $35k. Right now, I have at least 15 Duramax pickups in my hand from the dealer that are new '04s LT trim crew cab with all the bells and whistles, and I can get it for $40k out the door. I could get the 6.0L for less, but I feel that although the 6.0L is a great engine, it is not as strong as the 8.1L or 6.6L Duramax.

Bottom line for me is that I want more than 10mpg towing or 11 driving around. I could get that with the 6.0L but at less power/performance. I could go the 8.1L and get 10mpg, no Allision but a great 4L80E tranny, have gobs of power...and you can buy a lot of gas for the near $6k cost of the Duramax. However, the Duramax (non LLY) could get up to 15mpg towing...and upwards of 20mpg unloaded. Neither the 6.0 or the 8.1 can claim that fact. They LLY engine however I have been reading is disappointing in the fuel economy area. Some folks here are reporting sad MPG stat. In that regard, there might not be a valid reason to go Duramax. However if the MPG for the LLY does improve and you don't mind a bit less Corvette off the line feel, then the Duramax might be for you. Both engines when mated to proper gears can ball tow 12k (maybe more).

Now for the seat of the pants part of this review. The 6.0L and 8.1L are by far more fun to drive. However, when buying a truck like this, I suppose most won't buy it to be an Indy pace car. That's what the Vette is for. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

At any rate, the orig question was something to the effect of would the 8.1L handle the same power as the Durmax. Basically the answer, without all the blowers, etc is yes. HP and torque from the factory (without getting detailed as to where it shows up in the RPM band) is close. One thing to mention is that once you mod the 8.1L or any engine for that matter, power costs and that 10-11mpg could head further south.

In a $2+/marketplace, it can be a real eye opener with even a stock 8.1L. Fact is however even if the LLY Duramax gets the same mpg as the 8.1L, the fuel costs lately are at least .25/gal less expensive.

Anyway, my girlfriend is about to kick my behind I've gone round and round so many times. For me personally though, if the MPG of the LLY were to go up, I'd clearly go Duramax...mostly cause I have still have my Impala SS (heavily modded) to have fun in and the truck is there for two things....tow my RV and go off roadin' in.
Edited by: Silvertwinkie

I CAN TALK ABOUT BOTH 8.1 AND 6.6 (LLY). I HAD A 8.1 FOR 3 YRS. MY MPGS WERE 11.5 AVG ON THE 8.1 S0L0 COMBINED CITY HIWAY. I DRIVE NORMALLY I BOUGHT THE TRUCK TO TOW MY TRAILER. 6200#S DRY .MY MPGS WRE AT BEST 7.4 THE 8.1 HAD K/N 2ND GEN INTAKE,AIRAID INTAKE SWIRLER,FREE FLOW MUFFLER(FLOWMASTER) THE BASICS FOR BETTER MPGS. 01 CC LBED 2WD


MY NEW LLY IS THE SAME 04 CC LBED 4WD 400MI.ON IT MY MPGS ARE 17.5 AVG. I DONT KNOW WHAT THE MPGS WILL BE TOWING YET?


I SPENT 1200-1500$ AYR. INGAS ALONE, PRICES AT 1.60 AVG IN 01 02 http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif I KNOW MY LLY WILL BE EASY ON MY WALLET

What is the question this thread is asking???? NOt who makes better mileage!!! Beside tear up duramax and you out big money($7800 for injectors only). I am picking up a used 8.1 complete for $600 to build up, only thing wrong was the cam why it was pulled.

You are way off base on the injector cost. $1,200 bucks for a core exchange or $3,000 bucks for brand new performance injectors.

Sorry, got my info from gm-truck.com A guy on there reported that his injectors were not under warrenty due to they found rust from water in fuel. Thats what the dealer reported it would cost to replace them.


Beside new performance injectors for the 8.1 cost close to $600 for a full set. 8100 may use more fuel, but parts are cheaper to replace and easier to work on. I am sitting close to 400hp with only reprogram pcm and cam. Still factory heads , intake, and exhaust. Raylar engines, Has a heads, intake manifold, and cam package that use 89 octane, idles like stock. Makes a healthy 550hp, 650ftbls all motor only. Lower compression ratio a little, throw on a turbo or S/C say hello http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif900HP bye bye diesel in the 1/4 mile!!! Thats the plan for my used 8100.

Sorry, got my info from gm-truck.com A guy on there reported that his injectors were not under warrenty due to they found rust from water in fuel. Thats what the dealer reported it would cost to replace them.


Beside new performance injectors for the 8.1 cost close to $600 for a full set. 8100 may use more fuel, but parts are cheaper to replace and easier to work on. I am sitting close to 400hp with only reprogram pcm and cam. Still factory heads , intake, and exhaust. Raylar engines, Has a heads, intake manifold, and cam package that use 89 octane, idles like stock. Makes a healthy 550hp, 650ftbls all motor only. Lower compression ratio a little, throw on a turbo or S/C say hello http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif900HP bye bye diesel in the 1/4 mile!!! Thats the plan for my used 8100.








i did look at the 8.1 when i was looking at a new truck. but i decided a diesel is better. 1g can give allot of power. but i want to see that 900 hp gasser. when u do it i will believe you. i dont think 900 hp will be street legal or pocket book friendly. why it would be cool to say i got a 900hp truck you would be stuck driveing a s-10 pickup.


no affece. if u can make 900 hp got for it. do beat the d-max but isnt that a waste of truck? 30k truck just for drag raceing.


correct me if i am wrong but i dont think 900 hp is street able.

What do you diesel guys think is streetable????


Take a gander over at ls1tech.com Lota of guys are going to a turbo and put in down 450-550rwhp with the stock 5.3 and more with a 6.0. that out of a small block.


S/C usually increase power to 45%, Turbo are better at around 55-60% power increase


Now take a built 8100 put a turbo on. say 500hp to account for lower C/R ratio 500 * 1.55= 775 hp And a meth injection should bring it up 850 to 900 hp.


So the answer is YES

i got nothing against gas engines. i would be happy with a 8.1. the only reason i didnt was because of the gas milage. hey if u can put down 900 hp i am all ears.


i know gasers will make more power look at dragsters. their all gas.


but my version of streetable is i can take it to work workl it all day and still drive home in it with out a cop pulling me over for noise or something.

Beside new performance injectors for the 8.1 cost close to $600 for a full set. 8100 may use more fuel, but parts are cheaper to replace and easier to work on. I am sitting close to 400hp with only reprogram pcm and cam. Still factory heads , intake, and exhaust. Raylar engines, Has a heads, intake manifold, and cam package that use 89 octane, idles like stock. Makes a healthy 550hp, 650ftbls all motor only. Lower compression ratio a little, throw on a turbo or S/C say hello http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif900HP bye bye diesel in the 1/4 mile!!! Thats the plan for my used 8100.





Right, you just keep on thinking that. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

yamahagrizzly: Why would a cop pull you over if you had built 8.1??? Ever heard of muffers. plus doesn't a turbo muffle some of the exhaust noise???


Second If you diesel Guys know so much about Gas motors, Then what is the limit for a 8.1 that you consider streetable??? Answer please.


GMC2500HD: Yes I will keep thinking that. I suppoes you think that GM putting out a 400hp N/A LS2 6.0 small block liter is hoax too huh. Or a 510hp 454ci ZL1, is totally unstreetable. How about a 572 GM crate motor at 620hp and idles at 700r's smooth(which actually dyno's around 705hp according to PHR magzine), more lies from GM. All these engine are N/A no FI. Tell me how you would build a 8100 that you consider streetable????


TO all diesel heads, There is already 2 company's that have taken 8100 to 550hp and 650ftbls on 89 or less octane with stock like idle quality : raylar engine and arizona speed and marine. I am impling is a guy to add forced induction to one of these combos, there will be alot of power to be had. PLease get out of 1960's way of thinking.


thank you.Edited by: 8100hammer

i do think it is possable but i dont think it would be street able. i dont know about the turbo making less noise. but emmisions comes to mind also.


like i said when it happens let me know i would interested to know what it got in it. i am not a full bore diesel guy i got 2 69 firebirds with 400's. i do no know if a d-max will see 900 hp or not i dont care because i wont have it. but i would like to see somes d-max have that much power. i would also like to see a 8.1 900 street legal.


i have no dought in my mind that u could have 900 hp but not to sreetable.


i would really like to be proven wrong.


dont take this personally because this isnt personal. i got my believes and you got yours. i hope your right about the 900 hp but i dont think so.

I personally would not build an 8100.. I am not into gas anymore. I use to have a nice 6.0L that was a very strong truck, but after owning a diesel I will never go back... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

yamahagrizzly: funny thing you say about emmissions, I don't think that a juice dmax could meet the upcoming emmission in 07 and 08 for particle emmissions(aka smoke).





GMC2500HD: They why are you commenting on this, The question was can you bomb an 8100 as much as a dmax. YES. You didn't even own a 8.1.





I am Done with this thread. Edited by: 8100hammer

Hi,


My 2 cents...............sure the sky is the limit with the 8.1, but my idea of streetable is miles per gallon..........NOT gallons per mile!! And the minutes you start going nuts with a gasser, you will not drive by a gas station without stopping!!


It will be a DMAX for me!!





Take care





Will

but all i got to do is unplug my juice and i am back to normal. can you do that to a bombed 8.1? unplug a programmer and have a totally stock truck that will pass emissions?

Sorry can't let a good rebuttal go.


WilliamBos: dmax will not drive pass a dealership without getting new injectors! If they have them in stock, due high demand for them. wonder why???hmmmm


yamahagrizzly: pick oct issue of sport truck mag. write up of an sts turbo install on a 4.8. I am using this as example only. Making 345 hp still pass emmissions and 21mpg. no 8.1 will not be able unplugg and power down. But can have a boost controller, so I don't need to go nuts on the street. This sts turbo idea is one I will be exploreing this winter along with a set jumper cables to help my dmax buddies start at -35 degrees below zero. While my truck is warming and idle nicely.

HI,


Not every Dmax needs injectors. It is only a small percentage that is having the problem. Just like the Ford 6.0. Same old story here. We hear alot about injector issues, but put that up against the percentage of Dmax's sold, and the percentage is still low!!

If its only a small % of them, then why dealers so low on parts? But I will stick rock soild GM gas motors. Very dependable. starts up when it is -40 out and no plug-ins, just gas and $15 oil changes and $10 fuel fiter every 25k miles. thats it. No need to worry about fuel gelling up, about mutiable fuel pumps going out, or expensive fuel system componants going out, and more filter that need constant replacement than a guy can shake a stick at . Yeah I know diesel guys are going to say they rarely ever go out, but all it take is a injector pump replacement to hit the pocketbook$. I work with several diesel owners, that just got done servicing there injectors and injector pump, into over $4500 each of them, a guy can rebuild two 8.1 motors for a little less then one guy spent.


Yes diesel has its plus, do to complexity of the fuel system, it will be more spendy over its life reguardless of 20mpg. Besides I just got 14.8 mpg on a trip to Iowa, that with a high performance cam.





To each his own. I prefer dependable GM V8 gas motors.

Wow that was alot of reading.


Here is my Take on this:


Yes you can make massive HP out of Gas engines. Yes they can be somewhat reliable and fun to drive but there are other factors.


Adding any add on that you want to a gas motor will not ever make book value of the Diesel. I know we are not talking resale here but a fact is a fact. Someone brought up the point that you have to pay extra for them to start with and you get extra when you sell them.


My diesel is fun, It is tweaked a little bit and will really mess a ricer up if they are not carefull. I do have another car that the motor of my diesel would crush it but I can gaureentee it would not out run it once it is finshed.


As far as the Allison 1000 goes....It is rated at 820lbs of tq stock. I got this information from the Allison rep himself when I was planning my upgrades...I am close to that now but I am very carefull on how much more I add to the truck. I do not know what the gasser tranny is rated at but the Allison is no weakling.


Injector problems? Hmmm I asked my dealer down here and they have not had any yet..... Mine has a tad over 20k on it now and so far so good. also it has been chipped since 3k on the odometer.

HI,


I am sure if you check every dealer in NA, they are not all out of parts................... I love GM gas motors also. I was out truck shopping on the weekend, and the only way I will own a DMAX is if I buy a used one. New ones are too pricey for my blood!! But a NEW 6.0 wouldnt be a problem. Why cán't you get a ZF 6 or a 5 speed with the 6.0? Atleast when I built one online it would not let me choose one?





Take care





Will

MightyMax: "I do not know what the gasser tranny is rated at but the Allison is no weakling.""Yes you can make massive HP out of Gas engines. Yes they can be somewhat reliable and fun to drive but there are other factors."


8.1 has the allison tranny. Gas and go that it for me, No problems thur Mud running, drag racing, high rpms trip into the weeds and just starting truck pulling. In fact all of my problem have to do with drivetrain. Tally to date is: 2 front CV axles, burn off range selector switch and wiring harssness, and 1 u-joint.


WilliamBos: think bigger 8100 vortec.

*As far as the Allison 1000 goes....It is rated at 820lbs of tq stock. /P]


*

If that's the case, why does GM limit the torque settings on the first and last gears of the Duramax mated to an Allision??? Not trying to be arguementitive, just trying to understand the logic. :)Edited by: Silvertwinkie

Well my 2 cents.......if 500 streetable HP is possible with a 6.0, then just imagine what you can do with an 8.1


heres a link to back this up!!


http://www.lingenfelter.com/performance_tuner05.asp (http://www.lingenfelter.com/performance_tuner05.asp)





Take care





Will

Well my 2 cents.......if 500 streetable HP is possible with a 6.0, then just imagine what you can do with an 8.1


heres a link to back this up!!


http://www.lingenfelter.com/performance_tuner05.asp (http://www.lingenfelter.com/performance_tuner05.asp)





Take care





Will








$56,000 for their 700+hp twin turbo http://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/eek.gifhttp://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/eek.gifhttp://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/eek.gif. I know Lingenfelter is top shelf stuff but geeeeez. But at least that price includes installation http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifEdited by: VFRRider

yeah, I am pretty sure you can buy engine kits from him too!! I almost puked when I saw that price. And for me that translates into about $70,000 CDN!!

Either motor at those power levels will need massive amounts of massaging to sustain that HP level. There is no doubt in my mind that they both will do huge HP levels. The Gassers have been worked into doing this for over 50-70 years. The power house Diesel is rather new to the scene. I made 795hp (and still climbing) and 1502 fp of torque on my Duramax in front of alot of people on a stock motor (injectors and turbo and inerds). However the stock head gasket wouldn't take it at the track and blew out just past half track. This was done at 6000ft elevation as well. At sea level, it would have been closer to 900hp than most people want to realize. Street leagal? Yes. But after driving that monster, I know I would not want to drive it on a daily basis. The Gasser has the technology behind it for building a monster. The reliability suffers greatly in both when doing this though. I would understand if we never see a street driven 800-900 hp gasser or diesel pick up truck. No need to rush to our deaths. They both can do it however.

I wonder which has better resale after "Bombing"?

Well my 2 cents.......if 500 streetable HP is possible with a 6.0, then just imagine what you can do with an 8.1


heres a link to back this up!!


http://www.lingenfelter.com/performance_tuner05.asp (http://www.lingenfelter.com/performance_tuner05.asp)





Take care





Will








$56,000 for their 700+hp twin turbo http://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/eek.gifhttp://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/eek.gifhttp://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/eek.gif. I know Lingenfelter is top shelf stuff but geeeeez. But at least that price includes installation http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif





I can't let the wife find out about them or she'll want it for X-mas http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

What a goof. I stumbled onto this thread by accident. You go ahead and build your gas motor, when you're done it'll be little more than a novelty. I know another nimrod who built a crazy blown big block dually. He was into the truck for $60 g's, it NEVER ran right, and he sold it a year later for $15k. You go ahead with your plan I just want to see the dyno sheet. It's not our fault you couldn't get your loan approved for a D-max.

Not true!!! turbo's are becoming increasing popular on chevy LS1 small block V8s. Some guys are seeing 420 to 530rwhp from a turboed 6.0. Just now getting to 408 motors. parish8 over at ls1tech.com. stock 6.0 running around 12-17psi runs mid 11's on the turbo, high 10's on 75 shot. Also he is building a forged 408 at this time. It won't be long before somebody might get the bright idea to turbo a 500 cubic inch motor. Plus someone on here is also building an 8.1 stroker motorhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif, which is projected to make around 625 hp N/A only.


Also I had mention using a turbo not blower. With your blinders on you can not see level tuning that is there with LS1edit ot hptuners. Bascially access to every table there is in the pcm. It is this level of tuning ease is why ls1 based engines are so popular. Which includes the 8.1 with its LS1 based engine controls. Which I don't think your buddy had. And so you based your whole theroy on gas motors on one guy who did not know how to tune a motor???http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif PLease


Answer this, Why is there such an charge up$$$ for a diesel in a pickup but not in a car.???? This one of reason why brought 8.1, Also when I brought, duramaxs(I still don't think pickups are worth 32k++ ) were still going for a preimum, and also filling their crankcases full of diesel. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif<!--
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Edited by: 8100hammer

This thread just keeps going and going. It is a touchy subject but people were "souping" up gassers long before there was a diesels in a P/U. It might not be as easy to greatly increase the power on a gasser because they do not come with a blower or turbo to begin with but they do respond to them very nicely when they are added. I agree the some new P/U's are costing way too much. I myself just cannot see an extra 7 grand (give or take) for a Ally I do not like and a overpriced engine option in a truck that may rust out in 10 years or so too. It really is a matter of personal preferance because deisels are not really cheaper to own when you add up all the costs of ownership. Any amount of HP that you can get out of a deisel, you can exceed it with a gasser if you want to plain and simple. (5000 HP rails are not diesel powered) This does not make one better than the other though. Just like some like Fords and some Chevy's, some like deisels and some like gassers and leave it at that. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif

This thread just keeps going and going. It is a touchy subject but people were "souping" up gassers long before there was a diesels in a P/U. It might not be as easy to greatly increase the power on a gasser because they do not come with a blower or turbo to begin with but they do respond to them very nicely when they are added. I agree the some new P/U's are costing way too much. I myself just cannot see an extra 7 grand (give or take) for a Ally I do not like and a overpriced engine option in a truck that may rust out in 10 years or so too. It really is a matter of personal preferance because deisels are not really cheaper to own when you add up all the costs of ownership. Any amount of HP that you can get out of a deisel, you can exceed it with a gasser if you want to plain and simple. (5000 HP rails are not diesel powered) This does not make one better than the other though. Just like some like Fords and some Chevy's, some like deisels and some like gassers and leave it at that. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif


how are diesels not cheaper? ya they cost more up front for the truck it self. but when you drive 35,000 a year and get about 19 mpg average and only pay a average of 1.80 a gallon how is that not cheaper? i can go 6,000 on oil on regular oil and upwards to 11-12,000 on sythetic. air filter ever 15,000 and fuel filter every 15,000.


so thats 3315 rough fuel cost and 379 oil change filter changes and tire rotation for a total of 3694 a year for my truck to run


now for a gasser we will go by my uncles 5.3 truck for gas milage. he gest 13 with a tanue(sp) and he never tows and drive just like me.


gas is about 1.95 average and 30 bucks every 3,000 miles for oil filter and tire rotation.


gas is 5250 and oil is 350 a year on ail change's. so it is 5570 a year to run.


so a diesel is cheeper to run a year and in 3 years it paid for its self. i drive a minimun of 35,000 a year. last truck i had i put 42,000 on in under a year. 15mpg 4.3l v-6

them figuares are only based on me and my area. so dont go pulling the oh gas is cheeper where i am.

yamahagrizzly,

You drive too much! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Had my new one just over 6 months now and have 3667 miles on it!
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Slightly off topic o.k guys. I want to talk about mileage on trucks, On my 96 when I bought it it had almost 59,000 on it in 2000 and it has almost 90,000 right now. Does anybody think I will be able to find an 04.5 LLY without a million worn out miles on it in a little over a year? Would it be bad to have a truck with over 60,000 when you by it if I want to keep it for years. How long could I keep something like that before it wears out? You see how some guys have Cummins that have 300 or more thousand miles on them. I guess it depends how you treat the engine and everything.

Yes, it does depend on how you treat it. You'll find a good deal on something man. A diesel with 60,000 on it is usually nothing in miles (unless you buy it from one of us bombers here). By the way a 5000hp rail doesn't use gas either. Ever heard of METHONOL or how about a big one called NITROMETHANE. Gassers have much greater reaserch into them thus far. Diesels really only have a few solid years of real building experences. I remember about a year or two ago when one would make 500hp and 1000fpt, it was a HUGE deal. Diesel is more efficent and contains much more energy no matter how you slice it. I like gassers too, and have some. Not dissin, just some facts. Lets see how good the years are to the diesels and what the future holds. We have time. I like flipping a few switches and being stock again.

Super Diesel: Stock Sucks!!!! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


yamahagrizzly: Why can't a gasser go more than 3000 miles on sythenic oil?? I can easliy go 10k to 12k on a full amsoil setup. And why are we comparing a 5.3 gas to 6.6 diesel? Didn't not know that was the topic. Far as your uncle, telling him I am getting 12-13.5 rodding around town with my 8.1 that will make him sick. Also one my friends has a 1994 chev z71 4x4 350 gasser, with 350k, has ever been broken seal on the motor, just filters, gas, oil, and a few sparks plug. still gets 16-17 mpg.


Question : which one has the cheaper Fuel system??? Which one is going to cost less to fix?? And yes somethings on some trucks do break! Which is going to cost less to rebuild when needed???



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how are diesels not cheaper? ya they cost more up front for the truck it self. but when you drive 35,000 a year and get about 19 mpg average and only pay a average of 1.80 a gallon how is that not cheaper? i can go 6,000 on oil on regular oil and upwards to 11-12,000 on sythetic. air filter ever 15,000 and fuel filter every 15,000.


so thats 3315 rough fuel cost and 379 oil change filter changes and tire rotation for a total of 3694 a year for my truck to run


now for a gasser we will go by my uncles 5.3 truck for gas milage. he gest 13 with a tanue(sp) and he never tows and drive just like me.


gas is about 1.95 average and 30 bucks every 3,000 miles for oil filter and tire rotation.


gas is 5250 and oil is 350 a year on ail change's. so it is 5570 a year to run.


so a diesel is cheeper to run a year and in 3 years it paid for its self. i drive a minimun of 35,000 a year. last truck i had i put 42,000 on in under a year. 15mpg 4.3l v-6


The price of gas is not constant (nor is diesel) and right now here it is 15 to 20 cents a gallon cheaper than diesel (as it usually is here for about 6 months a year. Not all gasser get 13 as your uncles 5.3 is not the rule for that truck and engine nor is 19 the norm either as I know some that have never gotten over 16mpg with a diesel (they must have a lead foot) and I had a friend that about 3 years ago spent a fortune on a diesel Ford dually with a club cab that he used to pull a 8x24 cargo trailer to weekend comnputer shows in the midwest (up to 1000 mile round trips on weekends) and he usedf to lead foot it at nite (75 to 80mph) and get as lower as 6 or 7mpg at times. He was VERY disappointed as he had friends with gass trucks pulling same basic loads and speed using same amount of fuel or less. A lot of owner do not even drive 25k a year (I have a 2000 with less than 30k now) Also, there is the electricity to heat it in cold climates which can add a few hunderd dollars to annual costs and lets not forget that insurance costs more too because truck costs more and "if" that diesel breaks down out of warranty, (and if you are balancing the cost sheet, it will be well out of warranty) it will cost you a fortune to fix it and then you may never break even no matter how long you drive it. As I have said before, they made economic sense when they were 2200 dollar options, not 6500 dollar ones. THey are not bad engines, they are just of very questionable economic gain for the owners, not the car makers or dealers that sell them.Edited by: snoman

Your right Hammer, STOCK does suck!

Super Diesel, My r/c nitro monster trucks run on a nitromethane /oil/methanol blend. Burns your nostrils. Gallon costs 20 bucks.

Yes, it does depend on how you treat it. You'll find a good deal on something man. A diesel with 60,000 on it is usually nothing in miles (unless you buy it from one of us bombers here). By the way a 5000hp rail doesn't use gas either. Ever heard of METHONOL or how about a big one called NITROMETHANE. Gassers have much greater reaserch into them thus far. Diesels really only have a few solid years of real building experences. I remember about a year or two ago when one would make 500hp and 1000fpt, it was a HUGE deal. Diesel is more efficent and contains much more energy no matter how you slice it. I like gassers too, and have some. Not dissin, just some facts. Lets see how good the years are to the diesels and what the future holds. We have time. I like flipping a few switches and being stock again.

Without getting too far off base, nitromethene still uses a spark plugs and I used to work with drag cars that ran alcohol almost 20 years ago. There is more energy (heat content) in a gallon of diesel fuel but you can get more power out of a gasser (and more power yet on alcohol which has a lower yet heat content but higher octane and better cooling of mixture as it evaporates) with same displacement and less boost any time, any day plain a simple. The only way you can get large HP amounts out of a small diesel is with very large boosts which anyway you cut it shortens engine and oil life. THis is why OTR rigs run fairly low boosts and have large displacements to get their power. You run about 12 PSI on a gasser and you will about double its output or more when it takes 25 PSI to start to even get a diesel up to 300hp or so in a P/U. As I said before, some like gasser's and some like oil burners and any debate as to which is better leads to a no win senario and raised temps. It is best to let this dog and thread lay.

You better tell that to the IDI Fords that are putting Banks turbos on them and only making 8-10psi of boost and getting close to 300hp at the crank. My neighbor has one. And he has friends that has them also. Why would a fuel that contains more energy per gallon, take more than a lesser powerful fuel to make the same power. They have been hot roding gassers since the early 1900s. Alot of reserch time there partner. Diesels have only been really leaned on in the last few years, and look at where there at already. Future looks bright. I'm not telling any one what to buy. I love gassers and diesels alike. I know what I can do with a diesel. I made almost 800HP (1400-1500fpt) with my Dmax on three different dynos now, and can do it any time I want. STOCK injectors were used. STOCK engine components were used as well. So out the window goes the theory for massive amounts of fuelhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley12.gif. The post says will the 8.1 handle as much power as the Dmax? Maybe. I havent herd of one yet. I'm still on stock components and climbing fast. Doesn't mean it can't be done. Will it handle it when it gets there, or will other up grades be necessary first. We don't know yet. It is still in the experimental stages like the Dmax unless you ask Mercury Marine. they have special built ones that put out 900hp with big blowers and lots of internal up grades. Problem is, I have made (if you calculate the drive loss) about 1000hp at the crank on stock stuff. I hope to see some true fire breathers here soon by the way. Edited by: Super Diesel

how much($$) is a Crate Duramax engine?? New not a reman!!!<!--
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Edited by: 8100hammer

You better tell that to the IDI Fords that are
putting Banks turbos on them and only making 8-10psi of boost and
getting close to 300hp at the crank. My neighbor has one. And he has
friends that has them also. Why would a fuel that contains more
energy per gallon, take more than a lesser powerful fuel
to make the same power. They have been hot roding gassers
since the early 1900s. Alot of reserch time there partner. Diesels
have only been really leaned on in the last few years, and look at
where there at already. Future looks bright. I'm not telling any one
what to buy. I love gassers and diesels alike. I know what I can do
with a diesel. I made almost 800HP (1400-1500fpt) with my
Dmax on three different dynos now, and can do it any time I
want. STOCK injectors were used. STOCK engine components were used as
well. So out the window goes the theory for massive
amounts of fuelhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley12.gif. The
post says will the 8.1 handle as much power as the Dmax? Maybe. I
havent herd of one yet. I'm still on stock components and climbing
fast. Doesn't mean it can't be done. Will it handle it when it
gets there, or will other up grades be necessary first. We don't know
yet. It is still in the experimental stages like the Dmax unless
you ask Mercury Marine. they have special built ones that put out 900hp
with big blowers and lots of internal up grades. Problem is, I have
made (if you calculate the drive loss) about 1000hp at the
crank on stock stuff. I hope to see some true fire breathers here
soon by the way.



That is the old 7.3's not the new 6.0 powerstroke... Also at 1000
hp output sustained you can measure the life expetancy in hours or
minutes, not years. There seems to be a mind set that you can
pull as much HP out of a diesel you can with no effect on longivity and
this is completely a myth. Also, when a over boosted diesel fails, it
is usual without warning and catastrophic too. Furthermore the
future looks very bleak for turbo diesel P/U's because they will never
pass CO2 limits that are going to come to past as they are far worse in
CO2 emissions per mile than any gas engine today. To survive,
they are going to have to rethink their size, boost and power output
because the more power and boost, the worse the CO2 output.

Edited by: snoman

Who said it was a 7.3? Ever herd of BIODIESEL? Better check out emissions section on that one. Better start readin. Who ever said that a 1000hp is sustainable for long periods of time in a gasser? Better not tell that to the diesel earthmovers, ocean liners, or the UNION PACIFIC. I think you might need to speak with the military and staighten them out as well. A overboosted gasser (or any thing that uses spark plugs) ALWAYS gives you warning when it's going to fail, and NEVER fails catastrophicly. Just ask any race track owner. Better not tell europe that turbo diesels are going by by. More than half the population would be with out wheels. MY OH MY! UH OH, coffee time. Edited by: Super Diesel

Why won't anybody answer this Question?????


How much($$) is a Crate Duramax engine?? New not a reman!!! Also add on complete fuel system in the total price!!!!


Super Diesel:


Your comment about Mercury marine blower motors, your boosted Dmax won't even last 2 hours of WOT in a boat at those POWER LEVELS. This is why Mercury Marine has beef up the motor, So can run mid to high rpms under FULL LOAD FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME. Not just short little squirts, ooooh look me can run 800 hp for a couple of minutes. whoop dee do. Test for you: Run your Dmax at your 795hp for couple of hours under full load and at WOT. Let us know what happens.


Yes the 8.1 can be bombed just like the Dmax. Do you have to use a different approach. YES, Why? Dmax is manufactured for high boost duty. The 8.1 can be built to accept boosted duty. No it is not going to take "$$$60,000 g's" like some people like to believe.


Far as claiming gassers have more research in them, tell me what fundmentally has changed on them?? Pistons still go up and down, fuel still gets vaporized, still have valves, still have combustion chamber, still have a cam.


All that has change on gasser is the fuel induction, and lately valve monments, and most of this "new tech" was thought of and invented long before production tech caught up with it. (50's,60's,70's)


But please someone answer the first question:


How much($$) is a Crate Duramax engine?? New not a reman!!! Also add on a complete fuel system in the total price!!!!
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Well, it's at least $5500, if you consider the price of the upgrade. Perhaps
more if you bought just the engine from a stealer.

Don't get up set Hammer, just pointing somthing out. No one knows yet how long a Dmax will last at those power levels stock or built up like Mercury does. Whoop dee do? Thanks for the support. I'm trying to put GM on top you know. I've been there and back lots of times now. I haven't personally witnessed a 8.1 make 700-800hp yet let alone 1400-1500fpt on a stock internal motor (like mine) or a built one, let alone for long durations of time. I am no expert in this field. A Dmax in those applications would be a feather in Mercurys hat. The boats would get better fuel milage as well with a motor you could easly make fuel for in your own garage for .45-.50 cents a gallon. OPPS, did I let some repressed technology out? Oil spill in the ocean with Biodiesel? Alot of Fat fish.

You know what would be interesting to do, take a new old sturdy stock
396 "rat" motor like the limited 425 HP version (with lowered
compression ratio for a blower) vs a new stock Dmax (they are about the
same displacement) and start cranking the boost and HP out of them and
see what fails first under load when you get up to 800hp and more.
(this one is easy to predict though)

Super Diesel: Yeah I think that great in all about your dmax. Just don't understand why after 50 plus years of Gm Gassers. Of a sudden Now they can't make power. Well sad to say that you proably won't witness an 8.1 doing that. Just not a popular motor. And everybody is to busiy modding the LS1 based small blocks. I know of a few guys know are building righteous 8.1's. Their hp is projected to be at 625hp N/A, I'd like to see a dmax do that N/A. Also Boat with a diesel would be going butt-Ass slow, 3500rpm is just cruising along. Can a dmax diesel run at 5500 to 6000 rpms wot across the lake??? remember there's no trans on a boat. PLus I don't think that fish would like black smoke when somebody adds a edge hot juice to there boat. Here another question:


How much($$) is a Crate Duramax engine?? New not a reman!!! Also add on a complete fuel system in the total price!!!!


True answer please, not just the add price to pickup.






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Back in 76 and 77 while I was a attending collage I drove a C70 Tri
axle dump truck hauling asphalt with a 427 gasser and a 20 speed (5 x
4) with a legal GVW of 60,000 as I recall. I hauled about 20 tons
of black top on it many many times and on one gig for the city paving
at night it went out with 24 tons for a few days with a waiver. It
never really felt lacking at 20 tons and would do 60 to 65 on highway
without being floorboarded and I averaged about 5 to 6 MPG too.
Never got on the hiway with 24 ton loads so I cannot comment on that.
Also that truck had close to 100K on it when I started driving it too.
I also drove a single axle C60 some too with a backhoe behind it on a
twin axle 8 tired float and a 366 10 speed (5 x 2) for motivation and
it did okay too though it was a bit lacking above 50 or so with a fully
loaded bed and a backhoe on the float in tow. Getting it all moving
from a stop though was never a problem even at that weight. (close to
48,000 lbs GCVW)

It doesn't mater what a crate engine cost. I got my extra engine for dirt cheap. And yes, some boats do have transmissions and multispeed as well. Plus there are two speed props out there for boats that dont have multispeed trans. The ratios would be lower (in the gear case) in the diesel becase of the torque available which will be atleast twice as high as a gasser of the same HP. Higher pich props could be used. Lots of speed because of the torque would be avalable. Please read about Biodiesel if your worried about emissions. Oil spill worries in the oceans would be a thing of the past. Biodesel is also used to clean up oil spills. You can actually drink Biodesel (dosn't taste good however) because it is less toxic than table salt. How about the beefed gasser motors running in boats. Mine is a 350 MAG in a ARRIVA with a mercruiser out drive and I have never had an emissions test. I'm quite sure it wouldn't pass. There are lots of boats already using Diesel power plants for big power already (20-30) years. You will not see a N/A Duramax because you don't have to go that route and it would be stupid as well. They are built from the ground up to have a compressor on them. So it shall be. I am building the dragster now with the Dmax engine to set some new hights and veiws on what diesels can do. Never said you couldn't build power in a gasser. Put enough fuel and air in any engine and it will hum. The diesel fuel has more power per gallon than gas, just like adding alcohol to a gasser (no pun intended). Some one needs to displace the thought that has been engrained that diesel are slow reving and combersome. This has been the mind set for over 100 years, and they were only good for heavy duty, slow moving applications. What we need is an answer here. Will the 8.1 handle as much bombing as the Dmax? With out internal up grades on the 8.1? Who knows. 8.1 Gasser is the closest one I know of (wonderful job man). Built internals, I'm quite sure. However 1400-1500fpt is a high # for pure gas. Lets wait and see what I can do with a built Dmax (pure Biodiesel fuel). I'm spear heading the Dmax end of this thing.

Why don't it matter??? What if I got a 1972 blazer that I want to put a 700hp Dmax in. And I want 700hp all the time, not short bursts. And I want a fresh engine, not someone elses bombed one. I want to be able to go out and buy turnkey unit. Much is it going to cost??? I am able to get into a 572 Chevy big block(620hp rated actually dynos around 700), turnkey for around $12k, How much will a Dmax Crate cost??? The lastest I heard for a dealer or "stealer" is $20k to replace the engine, Its around $10k for an 8.1 motor.


Far as boats, I was thinking more along the lines of fishing boats, Fish &amp; ski boats, somthing around 17'-19' boats. For lakes not deep sea fishing. And no I am not worried about emmissions.


Simple Fact the Dmax is nothing without its compressor!!!


Answer is 8.1 capable, yes. Can your average shade-tree guy work on one. yes Can the 8.1 be built for different power adders by a shade-tree type of guy, YES. Can 8.1 be built to handle big power, yes. Is 8.1 capable in stock form of 500-600hp, yes. Is 8.1 built for boosted duty, no. Can it be yes.

i think super diesel made 771 hp with no bursts of the special stuff.


what the blazer used for? mudd pulls look drag raceing?


for the mud a diesel is to heave i think but the power would deffinetly be their. with only 500 hp the power will be their mainly because of the torque. same deel with the pulls but weight is good raceing i dont really know. and looks. well to me it would be cooler to say i got a bombed d-max than a 572.


dont get me wrong at all if i could get a 572 for my fire bird i would be all over it. i would like to have a 572 period but i would be picky on what i put it in.

You can get varyable pich props for small boat motors as well. If you want to pay for a creat motor, go ahead. I already have mine (so I don't care how much a creat motor costs). Who in this world is going to run the Dmax with out the turbo? It doesen't matter what it is with out it because it already has it and will continue to have it. Relax man, you trying to compare to different creatures here. I have been to the big #s with the Dmax and can do it with a flip of some swiches any time I need to. And I've done it lots for demos and I will continue. And with a turbo on it (like it comes from factory). I thought we were asking if the 8.1 can handle as much bombing as the Dmax? Stock or built now. I need some hard proof. I have my end covered.

Is 8.1 built for boosted duty, no.





Actually this is not quite true, It can be boost in stock form up to
about 8 PSI with a intercooler or possibly water/alchol injection. For
more serious boost, you need to lower the compression ratio. It
is not that it will fly apart as is but that the octane quality a
fuel avaible is the limiting factor.

It is probably safe to run a 8.1 to 10PSI without water on premium fuel. That would give you about 425rwhp and allow you to keep up with Dmaxes with a single box.


But you would decrease your hwy MPG by 1/3, overheat when towing, pay premium fuel costs, and void anything that resembled a warranty.


For big towing HP, a 8.1 is not going to keep up with any of the lightly modified turbodiesels on the market.

Mcrat If the dmax is the wonder engine, why is not in your corvette yet??? According to super diesel dmaxs are dirt cheap used, and according to the rest of you diesel heads it makes more power than any gas engine ever created. Why no diesel corvette??


Super Diesel: please allow some time, build my diesel destoryer. I will personally drive to where you live and show when completed, along with price list total and dyno sheets. Plus may have vids of me pulling next year if they allow my cubic inch. Also the reason I say run a nonturbo dmax is because you say, diesel as a fuel contains more energy than gas. If it contains more energy, than why does it need a power added to obtain similar power of the gas counter-part?






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It is probably safe to run a 8.1 to 10PSI without
water on premium fuel. That would give you about 425rwhp and
allow you to keep up with Dmaxes with a single box.


But you would decrease your hwy MPG by 1/3, overheat when towing,
pay premium fuel costs, and void anything that resembled a warranty.


For big towing HP, a 8.1 is not going to keep up with any of the lightly modified turbodiesels on the market.



It will not keep up with it in fuel milage but it will be not more
prone to overheat than a diesel "IF" the radiator is properly sized for
the cooling load required. Engine overheat when under load only
because the cooling system in not properly sized for the cooling
needed, no because they are gas or diesel. You increase the HP a lot on
either one and you increase the needed cooling requirement. Also
I would even try to run 10PSI towing without a intercooler, water
injection and premium fuel with stock compression ratio. Such a boost
would yeild more than 425 RWHP and mileage would only suffer when you
foot was in it, no when crusing. During WW2 they superchargered
aircraft engines a lot more than this and they lasted at full power
settings too worse than towing so to suggest it could not be made to
hold up is foolish.

Your flying off the handle to much man. Accusations that were never made. Your just pissed Diesels are doing so well and evey one doesn't see it your way and lashing out. If every one thought the same the world would have limited progress and only spicific things would improve. More peoples thoughts and more progress on things. It is a well known fact that diesel has 143,000 megajoules of energy per gallon compared to 125,000 in gas per gallon. Fact. Look it up if you don't believe me. Also the reason diesels mate with turbos so well is because diesel fuel ignites under extreme pressure. It's flash point is much higher than gasoline. The more combustion pressure there is the better the compleat fuel charge burn. Thats why you can't run a diesel to lean unlike a gasoline engine and drive temps out the roof. However incompleat combustion of diesel fuel (to rich) will drive temps up (black smoke). The opposite of a gasoline engine. So ends the class on diesel 101. I only said I got MY Dmax motor for cheap. Put a honda motor in a tricycle or on a skateboard it will fly too.


Edited by: Super Diesel

Your flying off the handle to much man.
Accusations that were never made. Your just pissed Diesels are doing so
well and evey one doesn't see it your way and lashing out. If every one
thought the same the world would have limited progress and only
spicific things would improve. More peoples thoughts and more
progress on things. It is a well known fact that diesel has
143,000 megajoules of energy per gallon compared to 125,000 in gas per
gallon. Fact. Look it up if you don't believe me. Also the reason
diesels mate with turbos so well is because diesel fuel ignites under
extreme pressure. It's flash point is much higher than gasoline. The
more combustion pressure there is the better the compleat fuel charge
burn. Thats why you can't run a diesel to lean unlike a gasoline engine
and drive temps out the roof. However incompleat combustion of diesel
fuel (to rich) will drive temps up (black smoke). The opposite of a
gasoline engine. So ends the class on diesel 101. I only said I
got MY Dmax motor for cheap. Put a honda motor in a tricycle
or on a skateboard it will fly too.







Did not try to "P" off anyone unless you have a thin skin. Lighten
up man as this is not about which one is better. In BTU's
there is about 142K in a gallon of number 2 and about 125 to 127K in
gasoline (with 87 having the most heat content) With gasoline
thought the are two point to watch, the flash piont so to speak and the
detination point were it no longer burns it explodes with a force that
can be very detrimental. I have seen what detination can do first
hand in engines.


Edited by: snoman

Mcrat If the dmax is the wonder engine, why is not in your corvette yet??? According to super diesel dmaxs are dirt cheap used, and according to the rest of you diesel heads it makes more power than any gas engine ever created. Why no diesel corvette??


Super Diesel: please allow some time, build my diesel destoryer. I will personally drive to where you live and show when completed, along with price list total and dyno sheets. Plus may have vids of me pulling next year if they allow my cubic inch. Also the reason I say run a nonturbo dmax is because you say, diesel as a fuel contains more energy than gas. If it contains more energy, than why does it need a power added to obtain similar power of the gas counter-part?





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I thought about it. It won't fit. A Corvette weighs 3080lb, or about 4000lb less than my truck. It would be bad to put another 400lbs in the front end.


Now if I could just find an S-10 cheap... Hmmm.... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif

http://www.usdieselengines.com/images/new.gifGM 6.6L Duramax 2001-2001 Production Dressed - $7698.90





About as close to "crate " as it can get. How many Ponies from $7698.90?





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif

Try a Viper create motor, I they were about 25 or 30 g's last I heard.

http://www.usdieselengines.com/images/new.gifGM 6.6L Duramax 2001-2001 Production Dressed - $7698.90





About as close to "crate " as it can get. How many Ponies from $7698.90?





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif





And they will just get more expensive.... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley3.gif

PS - Hammer, the Duramax IS a wonder engine, but what do you think they put in the Corvettes? Another wonder engine: The LS6 - 405HP/400FtLbs, pulls from idle to 6600 rpm, gets 28mpg, inexpensive, lightweight, small, and will run 12 flat right off the showroom floor.


It's fairly simple to get the LS6 up to 390rwhp, but MUCH easier to get the Duramax up to that level. The 8.1? Serious mods are required to get past 350rwhp. The heads flow poorly and it has high internal friction.


The 8.1 is going to go away fairly soon I think. It's the best BBC truck motor to date, but the days of BBC are numbered. The 6.0 LS1-derived truck motor is superior in most aspects. Weight, size, emissions, fuel consumption, and peak HP. And it's just getting started. I'm a big fan of GM gas motors, but you must admit, the latest version of small block is pretty sweet.

I just heard a rumor that it is not going away persay but that around
2007 it is going to be replaced by a V10??? It seems that they
want to match Ford and Dodge. (which I think is a mistake) So it
is not dying, just being repackaged. No word yet on size or what block
it will be based on but logic dictates it will be built off of the 6.0
modular engine which would yeild a 8.0 V10 of around 400 plus HP.

WOW, what great fuel milage that thing will probably havehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif, and all that torque too, what maybe 450fphttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley12.gif.

Probaly same or better MPG and maybe 500 ft lbs or more at 4000 rpm or
so (which BTW is the same HP as 1000 lbs at 2000 RPM or 750ftlbs@3000)
Torque is not everything as HP is the function of a formula that uses
torque and RPM in it to calculate HP. It does not good to beat
each other up over this as we can punch/counter punch all day long.
They both have there good and bad points and both are capable of
impressive power limited only by your pocketbook.

Edited by: snoman

Not beating any one up. Just pointing out something, and wondering what the fuel milage would be. If it has 500fp that would make it around 500 in hp and would be a good contender with the SRT 10 from Dodge (if they put it into something like the SS as well).

Yep 8.1 is gas guzzling, that why I just got 15.8 on a 416 mile trip this weekend, cruising 75mph. With my current combo!! Thats just horrible.


Far heads flowing bad, Then why is it based off LS1 small block?Replicated ports, intake ports with a tall and fairly wide ports. Easy way pick-up horsepower and torque on an 8.1. Get-Rid of the ineffient Allison trans. I know of a few people that have gain upwards of 100 rwhp just switching to a built 4l80e on their built 8.1s. Also the 8.1 rated to LEV emmision standards.


But your right, I am just amazed that the thing holds to together idling. Let alone powering a truck. <!--
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Edited by: 8100hammer

I personally would not call 15.8 mpg in a big truck "bad" on a trip at 75 mph.

You don't want to compare fuel milage now do you? That world belongs to the Diesel hands down. Now lashing out at Allison too. Sham Sham. I'll stick with some thing I know will handle MY torque level.

No never said that, It has been stated that 8.1 is hard on fuel, just stated my experinence. I don't not know that 15.8 mpg in a fullsize pickup was "bad". Like some people say.


And truth be told that the Allison does require a bunch of hp and ftbls to turn. Plus built 4l80e's(aka TH400) were handling those loads long before the allison.


Anyways its pretty easy to get the 8.1 to 550hp, with top end change. after that go with FI or bunch of nitrous. Looking at 800+hp easy as pie.
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The torque is the problem. You'll be all the way up to.....what..... maybe 850fpt.The Allison with just the Co-Pilot will handle that. It will handle it better and much longer (in this case, size does matter). Thank goodness for progress. In the mean time (and afterwards), be warry of Super Diesels lurking in the shadows. Edited by: Super Diesel

850 fpt with 800hp with wide powerband unlike the current dmax. You do know that shifting gears takes away 1/4 ET. I will take a wide powerband anyday in competive events. This is why dmax requires 5 gears, with its short and short powerband.


Go look at The diesel page, pulloff shoot, I have do is challenge them top guys to a race longer than 1mile, with thier EGTs topping 1800*, Don't think that pistons will last to long at those temp in real racing. Grant the hp and ftb is impressive, but its just short bursts, and got to shut her down after that.


And no I am not worried. Just ask them race longer than 1/4 mile, then watch them cook their motor. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gif
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And no workie on www.gobiodiselplower.com (http://www.gobiodiselplower.com), what the heck is a biodiesel plower???
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You don't want to compare fuel milage now
do you? That world belongs to the Diesel hands down. Now lashing out at
Allison too. Sham Sham. I'll stick with some thing I know will handle
MY torque level.



Lets not go there. Lets keep it freindly because when you add in the
extra cost of the diesiel option, it takes a 150k miles or more of
operation to break even "if" oil burner does not break down out of
warranty. You can buy a lot of gas for the 5 or 6 grand you save by not
going diesel. Better MPG with a diesel? generally yes. cheaper to own a
diesel over all? generally no. Also som places (like here) diesel fuel
costs 15 to 25 cents more a gallon than gas during the fall and winter
months

And no I am not worried. Just ask them race longer than 1/4 mile, then watch them cook their motor. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gif
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Or race top speed to with stock gearing too.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif

So has anyone answered the question? What will a 8.1 stock hold for power?


Wonder with a tuned computer how much spray you could throw at an 8.1 with a big honking fogger set up? Nice and stock feeling till you hit the fun button.


How come your sig says 6.0???

Your biggest problem will be making sure you do not lean out with NOS
at high power levels and piston a piston(s) real quick and watch for
detination too as those two things has killed many a engine. YOu need
to be able to dumps lots of extra fuel when fogging. That aside 200 to
300 HP shot of NOS is quite doable strenght wise.

If you buy the right parts and have 1/2 a clue how to tune things adding enough fuel is not a biggy with a fogger set up.


So you think a stock 8.1 with a properly tuned set up and a custom tune to pull out timing and some new plugs would handle 200-300 hp reasonably safetly? Any reasons why you think it will handel this much or why it cant handle any more? Properly tuned set up of cousre, just talking about how much the stock motor would handle 1/2 assed relaibly without tossing its cookies.

"Tierod" on here and on LS1tech.com, Sprayed a 200 shot of nitrous for about year and half I think. Then one of the ring lands let go. Chatting with few times with him, and brought his old cam(see sig).Sounded like the stock fuel system, was at its limit with a 200 shot. I think his best time was 12.9 at 107mph in exbcab short box HD 4x4. Plus his dyno hp was a little over 500hp if I remember correctly. But spraying nitrous will do this to hypertonic pistons(break them). I have not seen anybody do a well built FI setup on one these motors. Seem most people are doing a top end change, and coming with around 525+hp and idles like factory. Of course "Tierod" that not enough, I let you ask him on what he's building right now. Think I got him interested in truck pulling, plus I told about this site and Super Diesel's tierod sleeves too.


Seem like the majoitiy of people with stock 8.1 seem to level out around little over 500hp. I will say this, the major weak point in the 8.1 is the pistons. But Mahle makes some nice forged ones(in different CR ratios), Raylar Engines makes nice alum heads with different valve materials like Inconell exhaust valves, which screams TURBO!!<!--
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Edited by: 8100hammer

How come your sig says 6.0???





Cause I keep getting asked whether I have a 6.0 or dmax, People get confused when they see my diesel style cat-back. So I am going to start saying its a 6.0. Cause the 8100 vortec is the forgotten motor. And the only big block with the right port arrangement. Yes I have been asked is (8.1) that factory???http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif


Just need to figure out how to change my screen name, and the vail of deception will be complete. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gifEdited by: 8100hammer

Deticated fuel system is a must IMO on big shots with a gasser.


Also compared to a NA motor heads dont make as big of a difference.


The 8.1's run hyper pistons instead of just old school cast? scweet. Dont see a hyper piston holding much over 200 shot 1/2 way long term but thats just me and JMO.

If you buy the right parts and have 1/2 a clue how to tune things adding enough fuel is not a biggy with a fogger set up.


So you think a stock 8.1 with a properly tuned set up and a custom
tune to pull out timing and some new plugs would handle 200-300 hp
reasonably safetly? Any reasons why you think it will handel this much
or why it cant handle any more? Properly tuned set up of cousre, just
talking about how much the stock motor would handle 1/2 assed relaibly
without tossing its cookies.

When you get much beyond 250 HP NOS shots or so on a 8.1 there is less
room for error and you might want to lower compression ratio a point
too for long term reliabilty. This is not a weakness as the engine was
designed to run without blower or NOS when new.

I agree that a motor not being able to handle a 300 shot is not a design flaw or a "weakness" GM isnt going to build everything to handle a 300 shot of spray. It wouldnt make sense for them too.


What do you mean less room for error and why do you think an 8.1 cant handle much more than that or why do you think it can handle that much?

Mixture and detenation control become increasingly critical and a much
finer line to walk with stock compression levels as when you get detination at these levels, by the
time you hear it, the engine is usually toast.
Edited by: snoman

Gotta bud that runs a BBC rail that is sprayed just a wee bit and he aint lite on compressionhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif Just gota know how to tune it(probably need a spray tune and a regular tune also if you want to get real knarly) and run the right gas when you plan to dump the juice to it. You can eliminate the problem of leaning out and detonation easy enough if you know what you are doing.


Then it becomes a matter of how much will it hold before breaking a piston or something else letting go.


Definatly need to run a seperate fuel system when you start spraying big.Edited by: ratlover

And use the highest octane fuel you can find to. I was talking about 93
octane pump gas. Use racing fuel or 100 octane aircraft fuel you can
push the envelope even a bit more with stock compression.

8100hammer was right with the mod I had and a 200HP shot the stock fuel system was pretty much max out. If you did Raylar head, intake, and 103 cam on a stock short block add a separate fuel system for N2O with a one gallon fuel cell 108oct. A 200HP shot would not be out of reason and should be good for 725HP at the flywheel. Thats not bad but I should be able to make more than that to the ground with my combo I think. Well at least I hope.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif


P.S. My down fall was do to a back fire.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley18.gif

Trying to use a high octane gas in the seperat fuel cell feeding the N2O and running regular gas getting injected isnt the way to go IMO and you will still likely run into detonation problems I believe. JMO Gota run high octane gas in the fuel tank too IMO.


Schweeethttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley16.gif You tell every body Its all stock I swear, just some flowmaster exhaust and a K&amp;N intake?http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gif

Trying to use a high octane gas in the seperat
fuel cell feeding the N2O and running regular gas getting injected isnt
the way to go IMO and you will still likely run into detonation
problems I believe. JMO Gota run high octane gas in the fuel tank too
IMO.


Schweeethttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley16.gif You tell every body Its all stock I swear, just some flowmaster exhaust and a K&amp;N intake?http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gif



Nice idea in theory but I am not sure I would do it as higher octane
fuel also has different burning characteristics too (it burns a bit
slower ) I would stick with one fuel grade and use
water/achol inject to control ping if you do not want to buy premium
gas all the time. I never buy 87 (expect for my tractors and a
old J20 jeep I have with 8 to 1 compression) so it is not a issue for
me.

I can tell you from experience that it will work I did this on my Camaro that ran 10.40@ 133mph and I have a few friends that did the same thing.


Chris

I did say that the theory was viable...

All I can say is I made the power I did (on several occations) with a totally STOCK Duramax (no special crate engine or build practices or reinforced internals), just a program and a few things misted in. Then it was done on a compleatly different motor to prove it is repeatable. It not only repeated it, it made almost the same power with less stuff going in. It lives well today, and can do it again any time I want it to, NOW, not in the future (in bursts if you will, or to exterminate naysayers). This power was made at the rear wheels AFTER going through the Allison which will claim 20% of the power for itself before it gets out. Do the math. I can duplicate this on ANY Dmax for about $2200-$2500 (my cost with out labor) plus trans upgrade. The program is the most expensive thing of the whole deal but it is the heart of it as well. Now a built duramax? Purpose built? Who knows the potential. I will be exploring this over the next few years. Building a performance diesel is not like building a performance gasser. You can't just go to JEGs and order parts. This is where the true challenge is. If this is not done, we will have complacency and that is where diesels have been laying for the past 100 years with only slow evolution. Folks need to realize there potential. Super Diesel Unlimited Dragster, coming to a town near you, in the near future. Oh Yea, it will be running on fuel made from used vegetable oil I make in my own garage like what my other diesels runs on. Edited by: Super Diesel

Stock duramax has reinforced internals from the factory. this is why there is an upcharge from the factory for this engine. To pay for addition cost of those parts. Build an 8.1 up to same strength spec internaly. Plus a gasser is more configurable, saying if I what to build a nitrous motor, or a N/A motor, or FI motor. Gasser are cheaper to build, rebuild and modify,FACT. There just more of them and more parts avial. And they perform. The 8.1 can be bombed to about 525hp, then internals mods will be need upgraded in the form of pistons and crank. The rods are already forged units. Just need to decide which power adder you what to use. Then 800hp to 1200hp is possible with 500ci's of motor.


Plus the thread was about bombing an 8.1, NOT for to pitch your diesel dragster. Besides what class are you planning on running, oh that right, diesel boys don't want to play with NHRA folk, they(diesel boys) had to start thier own club(DHRA), to play with themselves!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gif To scared of competion in NHRA.


One More thing is that is really annoying, when diesel heads post kills, how come it's usually on a stock muscle car. I bet MTI has 2004 455 GTO, that would like to run. They never seem to run against something thats properly built. Funny how diesel heads take their modded trucks and beat stock cars with them. Now if they killed a twin turbo LS1 camero from a 50 roll and race to about 160mph, I would be impressed. Oh thats right SD would be flipping swicthes and pressing buttons, to get more power. The camero would downshift and be gone, FACT.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif


This thread needs to be locked down! The question has been Answered at end of the first paragraph in this post.

You left out that they are cheaper to fix too!

Oh I was under the impression we were going to compare apples to apples (bombed STOCK Dmax to a bombed STOCK 8.1) or a built bombed dmax agains a built bombed 8.1. My mistake. There's some real compitition there taking a car that is 1/3 to 1/2 the weight and racing a dmax. Been there done that. The victorys are even more SWEET. Fact is, I have it, and it's all mine, here and now. What does YOURS do again? Rather have a switch to filp, than just be wishing and talking about what I COULD do.

I think we were also talking dollars to dollars too. A 8.1
stock internally can make as much power relaibly as a D-max can pretty
much. What he was trying to tell you that there is no "Juice" strong
enough or magic wand powerfull enough to make a Diesel keep up with a
8.1 in a HP race. Heck even a old 350 small block can be built to
make more power than a diesel pickup. Diesel have their nice
point but no no even try to sell them as being able to be more
powerfull than any gasser. Only a fool would make that bet.

Well, I just spent well over an hour reading all of this....So, I might as well add my input too, since I have owned both a 8.1L and a Duramax.


The 8.1L is a dandy motor...pulled my trailer with two tractors to the county fairs for tractor pulls plenty of times...no problems..


The duramax has been the same reliable power plant that the 8.1 was for me.


Mileage is no comparison....getting 19 with the duramax (with a 6sp manual vs. 14 with an 8.1 6sp manual) ---I seriously doubt you're getting 15.8 with yours hammer, if you are, I suggest you keep it because that is by far the best I have EVER heard of in an 8.1....


Now, having said this...which one will handle the most without taking anything apart and just adding go fast parts?


I would have to think that it would take a lot of parts to make what the diesel can make with just simple pressure boxes and timing boxes. Obviously, a turbo and or supercharger could be added to the 8.1L for extra power along with a shot of nitrous...I would think that since the 8.1 is set up as a naturally aspirated motor, you would have to break the rules here and take it apart to make it realize all the power available with the charger/turbo combination. The camshaft simply isn't a grind made for optimum power under boost. I would also think that a guy would definetely need to do some extensive valve train work for higher rpm, along with a change to forged pistons for durability.


If any of you guys have a good idea on how to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt which one will truely handle the most, let me know...I have a feeling that without removing so much as a valve cover, the diesel will make more power because of the electronics available....


This isn't to say there isn't a ton of power being made by gas motors like the LS6.....

SD: What can mine do you ask?? Run at full throttle for long periods of time while boring though weeds and lot of mud at full HP production. Mine 4x4 has actually seen offroad! Is not just a pavement pounding street machine. But then again most people think they need 4x4 for the pavement!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif





And partsguy662 is right on.


Far as mpg is concern, I have only done air flow enchancing mods, the factory stuff is too close-off, to flow half-decent. Along with 33" tires and 3.73 gears, 65mph come at a lowy 1650 rpms, As with all GM gassers keep'em below 2000 rpms, thats were the MPG is.
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As with all GM gassers keep'em below 2000 rpms, thats were the MPG is.
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"Maybe" with a big block but not a small block in a heavy truck. I have
long found above 2000 the best (how much depends on speed and load on
engine)

Look diesel come with the best power add ever made a turbo and a D-Max is built for high cyl presser. With modern engine controls power is easy to come by. Diesel with turbos are awesome but without them they are nothing. Sense 8.1 where intended to be N/A ,GM will cut corners. Adding a turbo is going to being petty pricey and from my experience with 8.1 they make some serious power with one but all in all it still was mint to be a N/A and long term reliability will be a issue.

Super chargers are best for big gasser and properly fueled and oiled
they will hold up just as long as a over boosted diesel or longer and
without a EGT meltdown too.

I'm sorry but I've been studding how to make HP for 12 years. You can try any blower you want roots, screw, or centrifugal. I will whip your a$$ with a turbo every time. They dominate ever where there allowed and in drag racing theres limited on cubes and generally a 200lbs penalty just so the computation can keep up.

I just noticed a plug for airplane fuel.....if you use that stuff
without a llube (such as klotz or even marvel mystery oil) you don't
want to see what it does to your cylinders....I've taken apart one too
many gas pulling tractors that ran stuff straight *shudder* it's just
plain sick to see the scoring involved...I'll stilck to either VP,
turbo blue, or 76 racing fuel for hot rod applications....

I'm sorry but I've been studding how to make HP for 12
years. You can try any blower you want roots, screw, or centrifugal. I
will whip your a$$ with a turbo every time. They dominate ever where
there allowed and in drag racing theres limited on cubes and generally
a 200lbs penalty just so the computation can keep up.



Fastest drag cars in the world are supercharged. What I like about
blower especally roots and screw type is that on the street they give
you a instant power band at the crack of the throttle and a VERY flat
torque curve. Also they do not add underhood heat the way a turbo
charger can.

I just noticed a plug for airplane fuel.....if you use that stuff
without a llube (such as klotz or even marvel mystery oil) you don't
want to see what it does to your cylinders....I've taken apart one too
many gas pulling tractors that ran stuff straight *shudder* it's just
plain sick to see the scoring involved...I'll stilck to either VP,
turbo blue, or 76 racing fuel for hot rod applications....




Many years ago the used to make leaded aircraft fuel rated at 130
octane, now 100 octane low lead is pretty much the highest you can get
for one now.

Fastest drag cars in the world are supercharged. What I like about blower especally roots and screw type is that on the street they give you a instant power band at the crack of the throttle and a VERY flat torque curve. Also they do not add underhood heat the way a turbo charger can.
[/QUOTE]


Good point but I read an article a few years a go as to why they don't run turbos that and there not allowed to. I can't remember the exact reason for it, I can remember that it has to do with running nitro-methane being at the edge of hydrolocking and taking off a blower that takes 400HP to run it will not make that much a difference to a 6000HP engine especially when they bleed off more than 400 to keep from blowing off the tires. Roots and screws are a blast to drive and do make a reasonably flat torque curve. There was article in Hot Rod where they test a roots, centrifugal, and a turbo all on the same engine. The roots did very good down low but died on top. The centrifugal was lame down low but kicked a$$ up top. The turbo peeked and then fell off slightly to get beat by the centrifugal by 20hp but the turbo made more than 100ft/lbs of torque more than the roots down low and had flat torque curve.

Fastest drag cars in the world are supercharged.
What I like about blower especally roots and screw type is that on the
street they give you a instant power band at the crack of the throttle
and a VERY flat torque curve. Also they do not add underhood heat
the way a turbo charger can.





Good point but I read an article a few years a go as to why they
don't run turbos that and there not allowed to. I can't remember the
exact reason for it, I can remember that it has to do with running
nitro-methane being at the edge of hydrolocking and taking off a blower
that takes 400HP to run it will not make that much a difference to a
6000HP engine especially when they bleed off more than 400 to keep from
blowing off the tires. Roots and screws are a blast to drive
and do make a reasonably flat torque curve. There was article in Hot
Rod where they test a roots, centrifugal, and a turbo all on the same
engine. The roots did very good down low but died on top. The
centrifugal was lame down low but kicked a$$ up top. The turbo peeked
and then fell off slightly to get beat by the centrifugal by 20hp but
the turbo made more than 100ft/lbs of torque more than the roots down
low and had flat torque curve.



Yes but like anything else it is all in how you set it up. A turbo can
do well but it takes time to build boost where a screw/roots type does
not. I have a friend that swear by centrifical ones because he likes
the "kick" when the come in and they are pretty easy to boost higher
too with few mechanical limitation than a roots/screw type unit.

Edited by: snoman

Holy smokes!!!! my eyes are killing me after reading all this crap!!!


The one thing that kept comming to mind while reading this post is how the original question was can a 8.1 handle as much power as a d-max???


well to me that means: Take something from the factory, bolt a bunch of stuff on to it and see how much power it makes!!!


Then 8100 hammer starts in with all this crap about well the d-max was made for it from the factory http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif, and it comes stock with a turbo http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif........Blah, Blah, Blah. Well 8100 hammer, I think you already answered your own question. From the factory, without breaking into the motor, the d-max will kick the 8.1's a**!!!! with 1.5litres less displacement http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley3.gif!!!


So since no one else likes to get people fired up for saying stupid stuff I think I will http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif.


8100 Hammer,


Did your parents ever tell you no??? Every time you start firing back at the DIESEL HEADS for stating a fact or opinion you sound like those kids in the grocery store kicking their feet because they can't have something!!! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley19.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley19.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif.


Get over it!!! I see a lot more trucks with diesels running 11's, 12's, Then I do 8.1's.........and the main reason why is because you don't have the torque to push a 7000lb truck faster than a diesel can http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley18.gif.


So fire back if you want because I probably won't read it, but remember this. can a 8.1 from the factory run as much power as a d-max from the factory????..........nope!. End of story!!!


Later, Wade


P.S. Just in case you forgot where you were posting when flaming DIESEL HEADS..........This is "THE DIESEL PLACE". http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif

I just goes on and on doesnt it. You will see no Dmax that is 100%
stock doing 12 or 13 second 1/4 miles ever. Take a stock dmax no
tweaking and a stock 8.1 and drag them for a stand still (no power
braking either or 4x4 launching) and the 8,.1 will win. Tweak you Dmax
if you want with stock gears and put a "tune" on the 8.1 to removed top
speed limiter and the 8.1 will walk away from it in top speed. Heck
even a 6.0 would because when the oil burner is reved out, the gassers
are still rolling. You complain about putting a blower on a 8.1
well if you put the same total money into a 8.1 engined truck as you do
for the Dmax option and add ons, the 8.1 would TOAST IT! You will
not get a Dmax to stay together at 800HP output (more than a few
second on a strip or dyno) without a melt down with a gasser, it is not
a big problem.

Let me add a second name to the dumb a** list!!! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif


Snoman,


Eat me!!! you just don't get it do ya, put a tts on the max with a small shot of nitrous and talk about one 8.1 eating machine!!! Thats without even cracking a valve cover open. Who the hell is talkin about top speed here??? I thought we were talkin about power, not RPMs or MPH!!! Once again snoman getting off subject!!!!


Anytime you wanna get your smack talkin a** up here and show us just how fast your 8.1 is, you'll be welcomed with plenty of soot in the face!!!

snoman i believe vehicals from the factory are able to power brake. and is a part of raceing. so saying with out power braking it is kinda stupid. name one drag car or truck that launchs at idle or 600 rpm's. their isnt.


the 8.1 is a good motor just now what i wanted. sure someday a 8.1 will beat a d-max but i havnt seen it yet.


also you gasser heads dont realize how fun it is to out run these little rice burners and other trucks with our slow, heavy, only good for pulling trucks.


i mean if you guys want to get reall picky about things and come up with excuses like the d-max got a turbo and stuff.


i bet you a d-max will smoke any gass truck with as much stuff done to it as possable. the cetch max rpm's 3250. lets see how many gassers will run in the 20's with that.

BLAH BLAH BLAH we have big torque!! we have big torque!!


That seams to be all I hear out of diesel guys there is allot more to it than plane a$$ ungodly torque #. For example I have a friend with a D-Max he made 476whp and 830wtq at the time my truck did 476whp and 640wtq. We thought it was funny that both trucks made the same amount of HP. We went to the track he ran a 13.582 to my 13.585 this shows that HP is still a good indicator of the ability to do work and it was a hell of allot of fun to race. The problem with this question is no one has done a set up to see what the limits of a 8.1s are. To find out some one needs to a turbo set up on a stock engine and boost it till she pops. Then we will know for sure and put an end to all this BS. With the combo I'm building this leaves me out of it the only thing that will be stock will be the block. There been plenty of people that will push the limits of the diesel because its easy to get power to find the limits. But an 8.1 it will take allot of work to get the power to eat its self up. Don't get me wrong on this I love diesel I was born and raised around them and I've always been a advocate of them but it gets old in a hurry hearing are diesel are gods !! are diesel are gods!! I've had allot of fun in both a D-Max and 8.1L trucks both can make good power. Me and my old roommate and couple of friends would load up his CC D-Max and wipe every think we could find wile two of us would hang out the window and wave to them as we would pull away.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gifEdited by: Tierod

IBDMAX'IN: Yep your right, I am just a complete dumb ass. Why else would I post in the GASSER SECTION. I don't know, just to dumb I guess..


Bye. Last post.


CT

BLAH BLAH BLAH we have big torque!! we have big torque!!


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gif



Lets see 800ftlbs of torque at 2400RM is lot less HP than 600 ftlbs@4000
(a 8.1 with a mild boost) and properly geared that 600 ft at
4000rpm will do a LOT more damage too. Let see HP = torque x RPM/5252,
so 800ftlbs @ 2400 equals 365.575 HP and a 600ftlbs @ 4000 equals
456.969 HP. Hum lets now which is more powerful?? Yes you can
raise the RPM of diesel but it will self destruct above 3000 at high
boosts and have diminishing returns as well and a gasser can be built
to run at rpm's of 6000 and beyond if need be and make over 1000hp
while doing
it and STAY TOGETHER too. High torque at low RPM is not the answer
accross the board as gearing makes it all happen with any engine. Blown gassers have
big flat
and broad torque curves that can span 3000 to 4000 RPM and more and
like
deeper gears too. Blown diesels have a very narrow RPM range of about
500 to 700 RPM so it does not take a rocket science to figure out who
the real winner is here. (also, take away the boost and they are truely
gutless too) ANY amount of HP you can get out of a Dmax, you
can exceed it with a big gasser (even a 350 tricked up with a blower
can too). I have said it before, take a old 396/425 and add lower
compression pistons and boost your Dmax all you want and add a blower
to the 396 too and see which one makes more HP and stays together
too as you crank up the boost. The Dmax will be spitting its guts out
while the 396 is still
going. Yes you can get better MPG out of a diesel than present
gassers (this may change when direct injection gasser become main
stream though) but you will never every win a HP war against a
gasser with one when you get the checkbook out.

Edited by: snoman

snoman their are a few diesels running 4800 rpm's at 30+ boost. i remember reading the d-max is accually a 5200 rpm engine but their is no use for the extra 2000 rpm's on a stock truck. also the d-max has the tendicy to rev up to almost 5000 rpms when going down a very steep hill.


snoman what is high boost? jw

snoman their are a few diesels running 4800
rpm's at 30+ boost. i remember reading the d-max is accually
a 5200 rpm engine but their is no use for the extra 2000 rpm's on a
stock truck. also the d-max has the tendicy to rev up to almost 5000
rpms when going down a very steep hill.


snoman what is high boost? jw



Sure you can force it to wind higher but efficeny falls through the
floor because of high pumping losses (energy required to compress
boosted charrges at high RPM vs the energy released and capture) and
diesle burning/expansion curve does not favor hi RPM efficency either
where gas is fast enough for any RPM you can obtain. Just "try"
and get 700 ftlbs or more of torque out of a Dmax at 4000 RPM or better
and watch it grenade or have a EGT melt down.

So far it looks like I'm winning the war snowman. Gassers will NEVER get the same fuel milage, let alone better, because THERE IS LESS ENERGY PER GALLON in gas (size for size it's no contest). Not flaming gassers (got to have them too), just facts. Please read up on this if you don't believe me. By the way, how do YOU know the limits of the Dmax? I haven't gotten in to the one I'm building far enough yet. With all the internals beefed like you would do on a gasser, what would be the out come? Then I will really turn up the wick! Remember were talking GASOLINE compaired to DIESEL.

Guys, this has to be the most petty post I've seen.. I have several camaro's (from small block strokers, to a hefty 509), a Z06, a cummins, and a duramax.... Gassers are great.. One thing I do know, you're not going to make anywhere near as much dependable power with a gas motor... You can have a crazy built big block and make insane power... Will the power be as useable?? No... Will it be practical?? No... Will it be efficient?? No... Come on.. It's just common knowledge.. I'm a longtime gearhead.. I just couldn't help but to post... Super Diesel, you've done some serious homework.. Keep up the good work.....

Guys, this has to be the most petty post I've seen.. I have several camaro's (from small block strokers, to a hefty 509), a Z06, a cummins, and a duramax.... Gassers are great.. One thing I do know, you're not going to make anywhere near as much dependable power with a gas motor... You can have a crazy built big block and make insane power... Will the power be as useable?? No... Will it be practical?? No... Will it be efficient?? No... Come on.. It's just common knowledge.. I'm a longtime gearhead.. I just couldn't help but to post... Super Diesel, you've done some serious homework.. Keep up the good work.....





http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif


AGREED!

I suppose I'll second that!!! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif

hee hee and a third on that motionhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif


8.1http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif

I "fourth" the above comment. I had a supercharged 6.0L, man was I stupid! Should of bought the dmax sooner and use the money on diesel goodies!

I think my head just exploded!

Gasser against diesel, apples and oranges. If you want HP use a turbine, oh yeah they run on diesel. 8.1 is a good motor it just uses a bunch of fuel. I had a 7.5 ltr. Ford it would almost go 500 miles on a tank of fuel, that's 56 gallons. I owned the 6.0 Ltr. I might get 350 miles on a tank, thats 34 gallons. My DMAX goes 400 miles on 25 gallons driving it just like the other trucks. Ah hell my 6 cylinder Blazer does not do that well when I use 4 wheel drive a bunch. "which is much more then usual because of all the snow we have gotten lately"

[QUOTE=8100hammer]yamahagrizzly: Why would a cop pull you over if you had built 8.1??? Ever heard of muffers. plus doesn't a turbo muffle some of the exhaust noise???


Second If you diesel Guys know so much about Gas motors, Then what is the limit for a 8.1 that you consider streetable??? Answer please.


GMC2500HD: Yes I will keep thinking that. I suppoes you think that GM putting out a 400hp N/A LS2 6.0 small block liter is hoax too huh. Or a 510hp 454ci ZL1, is totally unstreetable. How about a 572 GM crate motor at 620hp and idles at 700r's smooth(which actually dyno's around 705hp according to PHR magzine), more lies from GM. All these engine are N/A no FI. Tell me how you would build a 8100 that you consider streetable????


TO all diesel heads, There is already 2 company's that have taken 8100 to 550hp and 650ftbls on 89 or less octane with stock like idle quality : raylar engine and arizona speed and marine. I am impling is a guy to add forced induction to one of these combos, there will be alot of power to be had. PLease get out of 1960's way of thinking.


thank you.Edited by: 8100hammer [/QUOTE

Try and sell or trade both trucks with the mods installed and see who takes a much larger hit in resale. I agree you could build an 8.1 to have similar power even in a N/A state. I have a 33' powerboat with twin 496 HO's that have 425 HP in a very mild state of tune (stock). I wouldn't however touch a used gaser that has heads, cams, exhaust ect for an everyday truck that I occasionally tow with. No way it has the same reliablility.

You can order the 8.1 with either transmission. I just ordered my diesel and went through this with the dealer. Cost difference to me between the two after rebates was $3200 when you add the Ally to the 8.1. Thats the only fair way to compare (apples to apples) because the Ally is universlly thought of as a better tranny.

DIE thread die die , why won't this thread die.

Sorry. I didn't see the date of the last post before added in. I was doing a search for something else and posted before looking at the date. Post is dead.

well i read 19 page i sure as hell am not going to just set here i had to say hi y'all

hey guys, i know this is old and all and i am only up to page 5, haha. a built 8.1with a turbo will KILL a dmax, no doubt about it. and drive like a stocker doing it. i have a 6.7l that just dynoed 580rwhp, 750rwtq on pump gas and i have yet to turn up the wick. i expect to see ~700rwhp and 800+rwtq on pump and 1000+hp on better fuel and still drive it to work every day. now add even more cubes and you can see where this is going.

nothing against dmax's, they kick ass and i wish i could afford one for a dialy driver.

i just stoped in here to see if i could find a stock tail pipe for a dmax and came across this thread. back to page 5 for some entertainment.

Are you the Parish with the badace blue 1/2 ton? If you are, congrats on one of the baddest trucks I have ever seen.:ro)

If you don't mind me asking, how much money do you have in the truck?

Are you the Parish with the badace blue 1/2 ton? If you are, congrats on one of the baddest trucks I have ever seen.:ro)

If you don't mind me asking, how much money do you have in the truck?

That truck makes us gasser's proud!!!

Yeah too bad, aftermarket stuff for the 8.1 is continuely on order or in development. Tierod still has not gotten his top end yet from raylar.

yeah, thats my truck.

i was under $30k including the truck to run in the 10's but have since built the motor and tranny and a few other things. i am also puting in a cage and some safety equipment. i think i will be a little over $40k(including the truck) to run 9's.

i know that is a lot of money but it is my entertainment and my daily transportation so that is where i put my extra money. tierod needs to:grd:, that thing is going to be a beast.

How much boost are you seeing with that turbo?

On Edit: Have you ever ran it at the track without the spray?

How much boost are you seeing with that turbo?

On Edit: Have you ever ran it at the track without the spray?
my header is less than ideal for what i am trying to do. i am working on that right now. best track time last year without any nitrous was in the 7.0s 1/8th mile at 16psi or so. that should be good for a low 11. i am going to the track in a week if the weather holds and am hoping for some 10's no nitrous and once i get the new header i am hoping to be a ways into the 10's on pump gas.

should be fun.

I guess I will have my wife race me, once she receives her Duramax! I do have a feeling it is quicker then my 8.1 Just the seat of the pants feel. I really love my 8.1, but the feel of the Duramax is awesome.

Hey Parish, keep us posted of what's going on with your truck. I am sure some of us diesel-heads would be interested. Thanks.:cool:

The biggest problem with the 8.1 is GM crappy pistons 650hp is about max.

This has been fun, just like school days when a frend of mine was going to blow my doors off with his mustang. You know I am still waiting for that to happen, and that was 29 years ago, but I am sure that in his own mind at the time 1972-1976 he thought it could happen. I hope he does not come around this year as I have long ago sold that car he was going to beat.
All I have to say is, last year when gas prices shot up I had a heck of a time selling my big block dually, as all I heard from any dealer was " No one wants that gas hog, & they could not give it away". Now as for this thread, if I built that Gas truck up to pull as well as this Duramax, what would I do with it when I was done? Pay someone to take it? It only had 80,000 miles on it.
I have had many fine built gas motors, but I am not sorry for switching over to this Diesel truck even if it was listed at $49,000.00.
It was just like the first Vett. that I bought, turn the key and go.
If you want to prove the world wrong, then Hammer go build your truck the way you want to, and if it out pulls all of the Duramax trucks out here I will buy you a beer.And I am sure they will too.

:blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:

I'm sure that the majority of the gasser owners on this site would have bought a Dmax if they could afford it. A few die-hards would never trade in their gas for diesel. To each their own. These forums are a wealth of shared knowledge, and it was just interesting to see some different opinions and get some ideas for mods, etc. I got my truck new for half of what Rich H's listed price was. That might give someone an idea of why there are a few gassers that hang out on this site. With the exception of engine and tranmission mods, the rest of the trucks are very similar...

i own a 2004 avalanche 250 with an 8.1 and it is very potent espcially with a predator programmer... would love a durmax but they dont offer one in an avalanche yet...

:blahblah::blahblah::blahblah::blahblah:



just joking):h):h:joke:

:Nothing_f

http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/

It would be hard for a gasser to beat this, power wise. (posting this just for fun, not to add fuel to the fire)

http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/

It would be hard for a gasser to beat this, power wise. (posting this just for fun, not to add fuel to the fire)

Heard that GM is adding that to the 2500HD line now that quadrasteer is going bye bye.

I'm sure that the majority of the gasser owners on this site would have bought a Dmax if they could afford it. A few die-hards would never trade in their gas for diesel. To each their own. These forums are a wealth of shared knowledge, and it was just interesting to see some different opinions and get some ideas for mods, etc. I got my truck new for half of what Rich H's listed price was. That might give someone an idea of why there are a few gassers that hang out on this site. With the exception of engine and tranmission mods, the rest of the trucks are very similar...
:exactly:

you said it perfectly. i wish i couldve afforded the diesel. for what i need though, the gasser does it just fine. just like an s10 and a full size truck, they have different purposes and people buy both for their own reasons. sure a few people will lift that s10, put big tires and think they can come play with the big boys. those are few and far between but let them have their fun.

Milage: Big Block vs. Diesel

I drive 260 miles/week
4.3 weeks/month
(260)4.3=1118miles/month

Dmax average milage is 17mpg

The truck I had before my Dmax was a 2500 with 454 and 3.73 gears; average milage was 9mpg

Fuel cost for diesel truck per month; 1118miles divided by 17mpg=65.76 gals/month
(65.76)$2.059/gal of diesel=$135.40 per month

Fuel cost for 454 per month; 1118miles divided by 9mpg=124.22 gals/month
(124.22)$1.899/gal of gas=$235.90 per month

Option for the Dmax $5200.00 (at the time I bought it)
$5200.00 divided by 60 months=$86.67 per month

gasser fuel cost per month; $235.90
Diesel fuel cost per month ; $135.40
--------
a diff. of $100.50 per month

$100.50-$86.67=$13.83 a month I save by owning a diesel.

I have nothing against the big block. My father-in-law as the 8.1 in his sub. and I love driving it. Could I afford to drive a big block truck, sure. But with the diesel I save alittle in fuel costs, torque is higher in the stock vision, and it's going to last longer, mostlikely

I had a 99' powerpoke. It was very cost efficient for me. All the free diesel fuel I could use and a 500 galen tank of engine oil. But my 8.1 is a blast to drive.

Milage: Big Block vs. Diesel

I drive 260 miles/week
4.3 weeks/month
(260)4.3=1118miles/month

Dmax average milage is 17mpg

The truck I had before my Dmax was a 2500 with 454 and 3.73 gears; average milage was 9mpg

Fuel cost for diesel truck per month; 1118miles divided by 17mpg=65.76 gals/month
(65.76)$2.059/gal of diesel=$135.40 per month

Fuel cost for 454 per month; 1118miles divided by 9mpg=124.22 gals/month
(124.22)$1.899/gal of gas=$235.90 per month

Option for the Dmax $5200.00 (at the time I bought it)
$5200.00 divided by 60 months=$86.67 per month

gasser fuel cost per month; $235.90
Diesel fuel cost per month ; $135.40
--------
a diff. of $100.50 per month

$100.50-$86.67=$13.83 a month I save by owning a diesel.

I have nothing against the big block. My father-in-law as the 8.1 in his sub. and I love driving it. Could I afford to drive a big block truck, sure. But with the diesel I save alittle in fuel costs, torque is higher in the stock vision, and it's going to last longer, mostlikely
Pretty interesting idea here. In fact I made the same kind of calculations but with 1 or 2 different changes. First of all...I calculated for worst case scenario....Mileage for 6.0 at 11(which is what I get) and mileage for the diesel being around 14.(I drive mostly city). The second thing is that it's not exactly a 5200.00 difference. It's more in the order of 8,000-9,000. Granted it works for you, but you have to realize that even if you did get a supplier discount, the rebates alone can swing 2-3000.00 from diesel to gas. I wanted a diesel and would have bought one without question if the difference was 5200.00. Heck I would have paid even a little more. But dealers think that they are selling the Chariot of God if its a Duramax. When I went to go buy one, the difference was around 8300.00 which was 5805.00 for the option and 2500.00 for the difference in the gas rebate as opposed to the diesel rebate. I'm lucky enough to be able to "afford" whatever truck I want, and I will probably see myself in a diesel in the future, but the "hype" has to come down to reality. I know diesels are an option, and I'll pay for that option when the time is right and the demand slows down a little...:cool:

Heck...I called a dealer in New Jersey and offered to buy the truck that I researched on GM Buypower over the phone. I asked about the supplier discount and he laughed in my face. So I asked for his price and he said "List....and not a penny less" Gimme a break....It was a 2004 and the 2005's were already out.....:cookoo:

So it's a diff. of $8,000-9,000 because of the diff. in rebates between the gas truck and diesel truck?

No..the 8000-9000.00 difference is the diesel package AND the difference in rebates. I'm not saying the diesel package is expensive, but when it's combined with the different rebates the gasser looks much better. Ask yourself, if you had the identical trucks one with a 6.0 gasser and the other with a diesel, and the price difference on a cash deal was around 8000.00 would you buy it? Like I said, I am really impressed with the diesel, and for a 5 or 6000.00 difference I would by it,but I can't stand how the dealers and GM turn the screws to people like us because of its popularity,but hey, that's how the world works...:Insane:

Just looked at the window sticker that was on my truck when I bought it.

Duramax Diesel $5,010.00
Allison Trans $2,295.00

If I hadn't got the Duramax I would have bought the 8.1 which would require the Allison, so it's cost cancels out.
June 6, 2003 is the day I bought my truck. The rebates were this, 0% no money back for 60 months, or 3.69% and $3000 cash back for 60 months. I took the second.

If the diesel truck is going to cost $8000 more than the gas, what was the rebate for the gasser?

Truck cost, lets say $40,000 Duramax equiped. Subtract the diesel and it's down to $34,990. Now subtract the diesel cost from $8,000 ; $8,000-$5010=$2990.

$2990 is the rebate for a gasser, right. This number added to the cost of the diesel is your number of $8,000 more for the diesel truck. $34,990-$2990=$32,000; Gasser truck now costs $32,000 total, $8,000 less than the diesel.

But if the diesel truck is $40,000 we must subtract the rebate I got at $3,000. $40,000-$3,000=$37,000 total cost for the diesel. The diff. in cost for a diesel vs. gas is about $5,000.

I don't know what the rebate for a gasser was on June 6, 2003, but I don't see how it can be that the gasser was going to cost me $8,000 less than the diesel unless the rebate for a gasser was $6,000 cash back.

Apples to Oranges for comparison purposes. All things have to be equal, and they typically are not. When I was shopping, the rebates on the gassers were greater than the rebates on the diesels. Additionally, my rebates for the gasser were taken off the dealer "invoice" instead of the MSRP for the diesel. So the difference was hugely in favor of buying the gasser from a financial perspective.

Well. the rebate for my gasser was 5000.00 right off the bat.Again I got supplier pricing for the gas and had a hard time getting it for the diesel. The only other choice was ordering a new diesel with whatever price increase and gambling on what the rebate was going to be when the truck came in. You can see why I made the decision. If and when the dealers want to deal on diesels in the next 1-2 years I'll be more than happy to oblige....

Damn my eyes hurt :eyecrazy: :eyecrazy: :eyecrazy: :eyecrazy: :eyecrazy: :eyecrazy: :eyecrazy: :eyecrazy: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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There is many reasons I went Diesel. Mostly cause I pull mowers around all day the diesel just performs better and also because my mowers run diesel fuel and that way I can use my 110 gal. bed tank to my advantage.

Another thing is that I have a straight on my truck and it makes everybody look cause it is an unfamiliar sound vs. the hundreds of gassers you hear with a non stock exhaust on them.

That is just a few reasons I like that DMAX better.


That is JMO:ro)




Wolford

dmax will not drive pass a dealership without getting new injectors! If they have them in stock, due high demand for them. wonder why???hmmmm


Well I didn't finish reading the posts but I just thought I'd leave something back about that, the d-max may need injectors but the gassers will need pistons... Trust me I know.

WOW!!! Anyways, yeah you prolly can get as much power out of the 8.1 as a Dmax. But putting 1000-1300 hp out of a 8.1 and think it will last like that? I don't think so, I mean come on, think about it, monster trucks run about 1200 hp, but they also rebuild with new pistons, bearings, and cam after each run, so in my experience, no it will not last as long as a diesel with that kind of hp's.

Sorry, just wanted to put my opinion, I didn't read alot for nothing. LOL!!!!!!