Alrighty......I need to run some new wire out to the shed so I can get my stick machine going.....(Found a really good deal on a Miller thunderbolt XL 225/150)

Shed is ~110 feet from house, it was already wired for 230 (hot, hot, n, g), but the wires were only 12 ga.

Ive only got a 1" conduit to work with here, so I got two 6 ga hots and pulled them through. I am hoping that I dont need anything larger than 12 ga for neutral or ground......??

Ive got a dual pole 100A breaker on the house box, ready for operation. I plan to run a 60A, 230V circuit for the welder (calls for 47.5A imput) on 25 feet of 8 ga wire, and then one 20A and 15A (both 110) circuit for other tools and lighting, respectively.

I also got a recepticle for the welder plug, three prong. Hot, hot, neutral. No ground needed here?

Tell me if Ive made any errors........:o:

Tx

The welder does not need a ground, just the two hots and a ground. You should be OK with a 12 ga ground, but someone more familiar with your local codes will know better. If you are planning on using the same ground for those 115 v circuits, that will be a problem. Too much for a 12 ga ground. Are you planning on a sub panel in the garage? The maybe you could drive a couple of ground rods for that panel alone.

Ya, Ive got a 125A subpanel for the shop.

I have no means to either run another larger ga wire in the existing conduit (not enough room) or add a larger conduit......it is under cement.

Might not meet code, but it will work.You will need to limit your load on the 110 circuits to not more than 20 amps total(or 30 for quick short load).

Hmmm.....you mean limit the load on the 110 circuits only while running the welder, right?

I dont plan on using more than lighting/radio/welder at once, at most. Saws, grinders, and anything else Ill use seperate from the welder.

No, each 110v leg needs to be limited to 20a because that is all the 12ga neutral can handle (and you need a ground rod and grounding wire AT the shed).

Any dual-ganged breaker that's for a 240v circuit (the welder, a compressor, etc...) can be up to the full rating of the #6 feeders.
Of course, multiple circuits could still exceed this rating, but the main disconnect breaker on the subpanel will protect the wire.

Each 120v circuit uses only ONE leg of the 240 feed, and the return goes in on the white (neutral), so the size of the neutral is the limiting factor on your current capacity.

Here's the problem.... say you run 4 20a circuits for 110.... 2 for power and 2 for lighting (in addition to the 240 circuits for the welder and compressor).
If all four of the 20a circuits are running at 10a, you now have a total of 40 amps being pulled on the 12ga neutral.

Not good.

At a minimum, the neutral needs to be able to carry the full load of the mains feed.
It SHOULD be big enough to be able to carry the full load of BOTH legs of the mains (and I'm pretty sure to meet code it must be).

Not code, but safer, would be to put a panel-mount breaker on the neutral and size it to 20a. At least that way you won't burn the 12ga.

An inspector is not going to care that YOU are the only person using the shop and can not use two grinders and saws at the same time. If the outlets and tools are available, it will be assumed that they will be used.

Probably your best bet would be to limit everything to four circuits.... two 240v for the welder and compressor (go ahead and wire the circuit now, even though you don't have one yet), one for lighting, and one for outlets.
This will still electrically "allow" a load of 40a to be put on the neutral, but in reality, the lighting circuit is unlikely to put more than 2-3 amps (200-300 watts) on it.... lower if you use flourescent, although I REALLY like to use a pair of 500 watt portable halogen worklights when I'm welding (makes it easier to see the work with the A/D hood down)

12 gauge would be a little iffy IMO... I run my 225 amp stick welder on a 50 amp circuit and ive never popped the breaker. The wire I have going from the panel to the plug is 6 gauge IIRC.

Not what I wanted to hear, but Im glad I heard it......

It was pretty tough getting the two 6 ga through, I had to grease the second one.....Ill see what I can do tomorrow AM.

So if I get a 6 ga neutral through the conduit along with grounding rods, I should be set.....

Oh, there is not a main disconnect on the subpanel. Wouldnt the 100A breaker in the house box serve that purpose?

Manny is the shed sub panel fused off a 100 amp breaker at the main panel? If so, I would assume that would be fine. We have a main panel and a sub panel in our house. The entire sub panel is fused off of a 60 amp breaker thats in the main panel. The sub panel has no main breaker of its own because its covered by the 60 amp breaker in the main panel....is that what you're asking?

Ya, no inspectors or anything. I want to be safe, however.

The lighting will be flourescent.....but I may need to add some better lighting once I get working.

So I also need a grounding rod at the shed? I guess if I could pull out the ground from house panel, itl be easier to get a 6 ga neutral in there.

Thakns for the help, BTW.

Manny is the shed sub panel fused off a 100 amp breaker at the main panel?

Ya, it will be.

If so, I would assume that would be fine. We have a main panel and a sub panel in our house. The entire sub panel is fused off of a 60 amp breaker thats in the main panel. The sub panel has no main breaker of its own because its covered by the 60 amp breaker in the main panel....is that what you're asking?

Ya, thats what I was getting at......

I didnt see the point in having a main breaker for the subpanel in the shed if that is powered off of a 100A breaker in the main box.

Right?!

You'll need to basically run 3 6 gauge wires from the house to the shed. Two hots and a neutral. The shed can have its own grounding rod IIRC. I dont think you'll need to fuse the sub panel with 100 amps. Our sub panel is only fused with 60 amps and we have ALL of these things running on the sub panel on their own individual breakers and have never tripped the main 60 amp breaker that feeds the sub panel.

garage 230v heater (30 amp, 230v)
Welder/plasma cutter (50 amp, 230v)
central AC compressor 1 (30 amp, 230v)
central AC compressor 2 (20 amp, 230v)
table saw (20 amp, 230v)
air compressor (30 amp, 230v)

PLUS all of the shop lights and basement lights. Like I said weve never tripped that 60 amp breaker for the sub panel...

I didnt see the point in having a main breaker for the subpanel in the shed if that is powered off of a 100A breaker in the main box.

Right?!

yes. right.:)

:ro)

Thanks for the help

This beats the hell out of having someone else do the job.......

Ok, I just had an idear.....

What if I was to wire the existing ground and neutral 12 ga wires together so as they would work as a neutral. Wouldnt that do it?

Seems like a good solution seeing as how I am going to have to use a ground rod at the shed anyway. Itd also save the cost of 65 cents a foot of 6 ga wire......

Go, no go?

Tx!

What if I was to wire the existing ground and neutral 12 ga wires together so as they would work as a neutral. Wouldnt that do it?
Hrmmmm....
The ground is insulated green and not bare copper, right?

If so, then yes, go ahead and do that, but so anyone who might open the panel knows that there might be current on it, wrap each exposed end with a band of white vinyl tape every 3 inches or so.

I agree with Dura, Don't cobble it. Not worth a fire to save sume bucks.
I also ran 6-3 for my 50amp welder / generator backfeed outlet.

generator backfeed outlet.

:eek:

I hope you use a transfer switch...regular "back feeding" with a generator is a :badidea:

Manny FGS, call up a licesenced electrician before you burn something down....

Hrmmmm....
The ground is insulated green and not bare copper, right?

If so, then yes, go ahead and do that, but so anyone who might open the panel knows that there might be current on it, wrap each exposed end with a band of white vinyl tape every 3 inches or so.

Ya, it is insulated......Ill be sure to mark them in such a way to let anyone that opens the box know what they are.....

:ro)

Roloffhill.....it dont sound like youve got much confidence in the Manny method of wiring........:D What is FGS, BTW?

Dude you can fit plenty big enough wire in a 1". if you pull 3 #6 and 1#10 ground and put it on a 2 pole 60amp breaker. You should have plenty of power. You could even go with bigger wire if you want. You can get 3#3's in a 1inch and thats at 40% fill The ground doesn't count as a conductor.

Ya, it is insulated......Ill be sure to mark them in such a way to let anyone that opens the box know what they are.....

:ro)

Roloffhill.....it dont sound like youve got much confidence in the Manny method of wiring........:D What is FGS, BTW?

I think you're headed for trouble here. 2 - #12's do not equal one #6 wire.

Do it right once, or keep redoing it until you get it right.

Dude you can fit plenty big enough wire in a 1". if you pull 3 #6 and 1#10 ground and put it on a 2 pole 60amp breaker. You should have plenty of power. You could even go with bigger wire if you want. You can get 3#3's in a 1inch and thats at 40% fill The ground doesn't count as a conductor.

Did you remove the old 12s or are they still in there. You may want to pull everything out (except a pull string) and pull your 3 #6s in 1 pull.

If you haven't already, keep a pull string in there just in case you want to add something and have a little room left.

Also... I hope you didn't pull in Romex. It was not intended to be used in a conduit and it's current capacity is seriously degraded if it is.

Did you remove the old 12s or are they still in there. You may want to pull everything out (except a pull string) and pull your 3 #6s in 1 pull.

If you haven't already, keep a pull string in there just in case you want to add something and have a little room left.

I used the old 12 ga hots to pull through the new 6 ga hots. When I did it, I thought that I could get away with using the 12 ga neutral as it was, but now I know better. Ill pry just grease a new 6 ga line up and pull it through with the 12 ga ground and neutral.

Also... I hope you didn't pull in Romex. It was not intended to be used in a conduit and it's current capacity is seriously degraded if it is.

No, its not romex....it is for conduit.

The welder doesn't need a neutral.
If I was doing it, I would just put a small breaker panel in the shed and run everything on the 6ga. wire. You could pull all the 12ga wires out and replace them with another 6 ga, or just connect them all together for the neutral.
Then just put a 60 amp breaker and a couple 15 or 20 amp breakers in the panel in the shed.

That will work. Pull in a #10 eqiup. ground as well. It should be no prob. If it is just pull them all out with a string attatched, and pull them all in at once. Somtimes they will get twisted inside the pipe and not pull. Use some dish soap for lube, it works pretty good.

Ya, I am going to put a 100a breaker on the main box and then have a subpanel in the shed.

The instructions for the recepticle for the welder said Hot, Hot, Neutral. So it must need a neutral.

The instructions for the recepticle for the welder said Hot, Hot, Neutral. So it must need a neutral.
Interesting....
Normal wiring for a 240v receptacle would be hot, hot, earth ground, or a 4-pin with earth ground and neutral.
A 240v appliance only needs a neutral if there are 120v components such as lights or computers. A safety/earth ground is ALWAYS needed.

Are you positive the welder requires a neutral and no earth ground?

Hmm.... if it's a Mig machine, the wirefeed motor might be 120.

Hmmm.....The 240V recepticle that I got for it says H-H-N.

I looked on the welder, but the only thing I could find was on the cord.....'Green wire for grounding only.' I guess I could open the plug and look in there.....

I didnt get the owners manual.....Ill shoot the seller an email and see if hes got it. OH, Ill look on the manufacturers site.....

The owners manual says nothing about a neutral....just two hots and a ground.

Manny check your breaker sizes in relation to your wire size. The breaker must be sized the same or smaller than the wire. So the breaker will trip before the wire sizzles. You don't necessarily need a main breaker at the shop but I would install an appropriate sized breaker to use for an incoming main. You don't have to use the main lugs provided in the breaker box for your incoming wires.

You don't won't to go over about a 60a breaker w/ #6 wire. It should be plenty for what you need.

Here's some interesting reading:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part2/
http://www.californiaelectrician.net/
http://www.dixieline.com/wiring/ewiring.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_outlet
http://www.handymanwire.com/electrical.html
http://experts.about.com/q/Electrical-Wiring-Home-1734/220v-110v-garage-Subpanel.htm

And a really good book, available at Lowes/Home Depot
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0971977909/104-9944403-8062326?v=glance&n=283155

You don't necessarily need a main breaker at the shop but I would install an appropriate sized breaker to use for an incoming main. You don't have to use the main lugs provided in the breaker box for your incoming wires.
Ditto that. I always like a master disconnect at a sub, even though it's not required.

Just install an extra breaker, same size or smaller than the one on the main feed panel, and connect the leads coming out of the conduit to it's terminals... when on, it feeds the panel bus.
Mark it as "Service Disconnect", and it needs to be a dual-ganged (220v) breaker.

This gives you a quick and convenient way to kill ALL power to the shop in an emergency... you smell smoke and you don't know which circuit it is... hit the main disconnect and you're powered down.

Install a battery-backed up emergency flood light with your lighting circuit so when you kill power you still have light.

For God's Sake manny hire sombody.....:cool:

You are gonna start something on fire or electrifry yourself....

For God's Sake manny hire sombody.....:cool:

You are gonna start something on fire or electrifry yourself....

Nah.....thats no fun.

This is how I learn.

PS, Ill be sure to post pics of the fire.:D

Where to start here Manny...

From what I read you are putting in a sub box. If this is the case, you MUST tie in the Neutral and Ground from the main panel box. Hot, Hot, and Neutral must all be the same size. The ground can be downsized one-two size if needed. An additional double set of ground rods must be installed at the sub box (8' long, 6 feet apart, tied together).

You may want to look at maximum gage through a conduit. If you put too much stuff in there, you have to derate the wires significantly because of the ability to dissapate the heat generated in the wire resistance. Also need to look at the temperature rating of the insulation in factoring the correct rating. NEC table 3a (IIRC) has the maximums without derating.

For example, my barn is running a 100 amp branch panel that is tied to the main panel in the house (150 feet away) with 3-#1s and a #4. There is an array or ground rods at the barn too. All of this is enclosed in 2" conduit across the basement ceiling, down to the floor, through the basement wall, across 91' of 3 feet deep trench, and into the barn.

Like rolloff said, may want someone experienced with your local codes to look at it and do it right. I can see the headlines now... "Nigged up shop power source sparks multi million acre forest fire". No offense, but you want to make sure it is safe and reliable.

From a site looking at some applicable NEC codes...
http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/homewiringusa/2002/accessory/detgarage/detgarageshow.htm#24

PICTORIAL EXAMPLE OF A GARAGE PANEL WITH 3 OR MORE CIRCUITS 240 VOLT 60 AMP, 100 AMP, 200 AMP BRANCH CIRCUIT WITH UNDERGROUND CONDUCTORS WITH AN EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR RAN WITH THE FEEDER SUPPLYING THE DETACHED STRUCTURE

http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/homewiringusa/2002/accessory/detgarage/detgar8.jpg
Special Note; Any detached structure that has an existing non-current carrying metallic path such as water pipes installed between the main structure and the detached structure must have an equipment grounding conductor installed with the feeders installed between the two buildings. Article 250-32-B-1 & 2

Note # 1 – A grounding electrode conductor is the sole connection between the grounding electrode {usually a ground rod}, and the main panel of that structure that grounding electrode serves. The minimum size grounding electrode conductor recognized as a grounding electrode conductor is a # 8 copper for 100 amps or less. Article 250-66 The maximum size grounding electrode conductor required for a made electrode is a # 6 copper for any size service. Article 250-66-A No aluminum conductor may be used for grounding in direct contact with the earth. Article 250-64-A The minimum grounding electrode {made electrode such as a commercially made ground rod} allowed is a ½” factory made grounding electrode that is ½” in diameter X 8’ in length Article 250-52.
Note # 2 – A branch circuit is the circuits installed within a structure to serve your luminaries, {light fixtures}, and your switches, and your receptacles.

The garage main panel, if 100 amps is allowed 24 branch circuits to be installed in that panel. If 200 amps is allowed 42 branch circuits in that panel. Article 384-15 This main panel may have a maximum of 6 single pole or 6 double pole breakers installed as a maximum in that panel, without having a main disconnect installed in that panel. The 6 breakers whether single or double pole may act as six main disconnects as allowed serving a structure. Article 225-33 The main disconnect (s) serving this detached garage may be installed either outside and weatherproof Article 225-32 and 373-2 or nearest point of entrance inside and not weatherproof. Article 225-32 and 225-39 and 225-31 These main disconnects must be grouped. Article 225-34
Note # 3 – When the detached garage service panel is supplied by a feeder that has an equipment grounding conductor ran from the main structure {usually dwelling} to the detached garage, then the neutral bar, and equipment grounding bar must be kept separated. Article 250-32-B-1 The equipment grounding bar must have a main bonding jumper connecting that equipment grounding bar to the metal of the panel box. Article 250-102-E The neutral bar must be kept isolated from the metal of the panel box and the neutral must be kept separated from the equipment grounding bar. Article 250-32-B-1

Note # 4 - If there is no grounding electrode system serving the detached garage, then you must install a new grounding electrode system as described in Article 250-50. If none of those listed in Article 250-50 is available, then you may use a made electrode as found in Article 250-52. Article 250-50 lists any metal water pipe in direct contact with earth, any rebar in concrete, any grounding rings, and many more as an approved grounding electrode used connected together to make the grounding electrode system. If available, all of those grounding electrodes listed in Article 250-50 must be connected together to make the grounding electrode system. REMEMBER THAT IF A NON CURRENT CARRYING METAL PATH EXISTS BETWEEN THE TWO BUILDINGS CONNECTING THE TWO BUILDINGS, THEN YOU MUST INSTALL AN EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR WITH THE FEEDER INSTALLED, SERVING THAT SECOND BUILDING FROM THAT MAIN BUILDING. IF THIS NON CURRENT CARRYING METAL PATH EXISTS, THEN REFER TO THE SECTION EXPLAINING HOW TO WIRE A DETACHED STRUCTURE WITH 30 AMPS MAXIMUM AND WITH AN EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR RAN WITH THE FEEDERS BETWEEN BUILDINGS. If you have a metal water pipe ran underground, but that metal water pipe does not make contact between the two buildings, and if your metal water pipe, located at that detached structure, is in direct contact with earth, then that metal water pipe, and any other grounding method listed in Article 250-50 must be connected together to make that grounding electrode system. If that metal water pipe is installed in direct contact with the earth, but not installed connecting the two buildings, then you must use that metal water pipe in direct contact with earth as part of the grounding electrode system, but you must also supply a supplemental grounding electrode to back up that water pipe in case that metal water pipe is removed at a later date. Article 250-50-A-2 Remember, If any metal connection is existing between that main building and that detached garage then you must install that equipment grounding conductor between the two buildings with that feeder and as a part of that feeder installed between the two buildings. Article 250-32-B-1 & 2

Note # 5 – Minimum burial depth in a residential setting must be at least 18” deep unless in rigid or IMC threaded conduit these two conduits must be a minimum of 6” deep, if buried. Table 300-5.

Note # 6 - No part of this feeder from the breaker in the dwelling to the disconnect form in that detached garage may be rated in ampacity that is smaller than the overcurrent device {breaker or fuse} protecting that feeder in the dwelling’s panel. Article 210-19 & 215-2 & 220-3 & 220-10 & 240-3 & 240-6 If you install a 60 amp breaker 240 volt in the dwelling, then you may use a 6/3wGrnd UF copper cable from that dwelling’s panel to that garage disconnect. If you install a 100 amp breaker 240 volt in the dwelling, then you may use a 2 awg four wire URD aluminum cable from that dwelling’s panel to that garage disconnect. Article 338-3 If you install a 200 amp breaker 240 volt in the dwelling, then you may use a 2/0 awg four wire URD aluminum cable from that dwelling’s panel to that garage disconnect. Article 338-3 Approved wiring for underground can be but not limited to Type UF cable or URD cable if direct buried Article 338-3, or Type THWN, or THW, or TW if protected by a conduit. Article 310-13 You may install PVC schedule 40 when underground Article 347-2-G, or schedule 80 when exposed to physical damage Article 347-3-C, or rigid Article 346-3, or IMC conduits Article 345-3. Seal tight may be used for burial if listed for underground use Article 351-4-A-3. Type 2 non metallic seal tight may be used if listed for underground use as direct burial and sunlight resistant. Article 351-23-3 & . 251-22-2 Type 2 non metallic seal tight is a seal tight that is as described {A smooth inner surface with integral reinforcement within the conduit wall, designated as Type LFNC-B}. ENT {electrical nonmetallic tubing} is not allowed to be used in direct sunlight or if buried Article 331-4. ENT {electrical nonmetallic tubing} is not allowed to be used in direct sunlight or if buried Article 331-4. If you install the above conductors with a conduit protection then you must install two black wires, one white or gray wire and one green of bare wire. If the conduit is metal the metal the metal conduit may be used instead of the green or bare wire as the equipment grounding conductor. The minimum size conductors are as follows; 60 amp copper = 6 awg or 4 awg aluminum Table 310-16 & 240-3-B. 100 amp copper = 4 awg or 2 awg aluminum Table 310-15-B-6. 100 amp copper = 2/0 awg or 4/0 awg aluminum Table 310-15-B-6.

NOW THERE IS HEAVY CONTROVERSY WHETHER YOU MAY USE TABLE 310-15-B-6 WHILE INSTALLING FEEDERS TO A DETACHED RESIDENTIAL GARAGE. YOU SHOULD CONFIRM WITH YOUR LOCAL ELECTRICAL INSPECTOR TO CONFIRM IF YOU MUST USE TABLE 310-16 OR TABLE 310-15-B-6 WHEN INSTALLING A FEEDER BETWEEN THE MAIN DWELLING AND THE DETACHED GARAGE. TABLE 310-16 CALLS FOR THE FOLLOWING SIZES; 60 amp copper = 6 awg or 4 awg aluminum Table 310-16 & 240-3-B. 100 amp copper = 3 awg or 1 awg aluminum Table 310-16. 200 amp copper = 3/0 awg or 4/0 awg aluminum Table 310-16 & 240-3-B.

DO NOT USE EMT {electrical metallic tubing} IN DIRECT CONTACT WITH EARTH. Article 331-4-A-5.

Note # 7 – Load side of disconnect serving the branch circuit wiring in the detached garage itself. This service panel installed inside your detached garage is where you start wiring the branch circuits serving the inside of your garage from, normally using nonmetallic sheathed cable. However there are many wiring styles allowed to wire the inside of this detached garage.

Alrighty......I need to run some new wire out to the shed so I can get my stick machine going.....(Found a really good deal on a Miller thunderbolt XL 225/150)

Tx

If that's the AC/DC model you did well. I've been using Thunderbolts for years. They are a great little welder.

Yep, thats the one....

Manny,
You might want to consider trying CFL lighting. Compact fourescent. They screw into normal light sockets. They make them so the bulb unscrews from the ballast now. I use the highest light temperatures I can get & use up to 500 watt equivalent bulbs. I use mostly 27 watt - 100 watt equivalent bulbs they put incandescent bulbs to shame. I have had very good luck with longevity. The light color is very important in regards to performance.

Ditto the CFLs.... wife doesn't seem to realize that light switches go both ways, so 90% of my home lighting is CFL now. The only thing that's still filament are the bathrooms.


Edit: Yup... kitchen, range hood, dining room, and downstairs bath are all "on"

She hasn't been home for an hour.

From a site looking at some applicable NEC codes...
http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/homewiringusa/2002/accessory/detgarage/detgarageshow.htm#24

PICTORIAL EXAMPLE OF A GARAGE PANEL WITH 3 OR MORE CIRCUITS 240 VOLT 60 AMP, 100 AMP, 200 AMP BRANCH CIRCUIT WITH UNDERGROUND CONDUCTORS WITH AN EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR RAN WITH THE FEEDER SUPPLYING THE DETACHED STRUCTURE

http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/homewiringusa/2002/accessory/detgarage/detgar8.jpg
Note # 3 – When the detached garage service panel is supplied by a feeder that has an equipment grounding conductor ran from the main structure {usually dwelling} to the detached garage, then the neutral bar, and equipment grounding bar must be kept separated. Article 250-32-B-1 The equipment grounding bar must have a main bonding jumper connecting that equipment grounding bar to the metal of the panel box. Article 250-102-E The neutral bar must be kept isolated from the metal of the panel box and the neutral must be kept separated from the equipment grounding bar. Article 250-32-B-1


Good site you found. Note 3 is worth repeating that all circuits in the sub have to remain separated.

Manny check your breaker sizes in relation to your wire size. The breaker must be sized the same or smaller than the wire. So the breaker will trip before the wire sizzles. You don't necessarily need a main breaker at the shop but I would install an appropriate sized breaker to use for an incoming main. You don't have to use the main lugs provided in the breaker box for your incoming wires.

The standard type plug (HBL9367) for this is rated at 50A, so hopefully he'll burn out the plug / cordset first. :eek:

Ya, ill have to check out those lights......Ive grown to dislike the usual long flourescent bulbs.....

It looks like the welder does not require a neutral....just a ground.

The box I bought does not have a grounding bar in it.....neutral bar only. So Ill run my neutral line out from the house box to the neutral bar and tie in the neutrals from all of the other circuits (except the 220V one, because it will not have a neutral). Ill also harvest a grounding bar out of another unused box and tie in all of my grounds to that and run it back to the house and to a grounding bar at the shed site. (Keeping the ground and neutrals seperated)

Im also swapping out the 100A dual pole breaker on the main box for a 60 or 70A breaker so that I dont burn the 6 ga lines.

Let me know if it looks like Ive made any glaring errors.......

Thanks!

redescribe what you have for wires between the two boxes...

I will have three 6 ga wires, two hots and a neutral. Think I can get away with a 10 ga ground? Keep in mind I will have grounding rods at the shed......

Ya, #10 ground will be fine.
It will still be possible to overload the #6 neutral. To be 100% safe, all of the 110v breakers should add up to less than the capacity of the #6.

But like I said before.... with the lighting circuit as low as it probably will be, it's unlikely to be a problem... OR you could use a 5-10a breaker on the lighting circuit (ever going to need more than 500-1000 watts?) and a pair of 20a for a couple of utility outlets and you're perfectly safe.

Ya, #10 ground will be fine.
It will still be possible to overload the #6 neutral. To be 100% safe, all of the 110v breakers should add up to less than the capacity of the #6.

But like I said before.... with the lighting circuit as low as it probably will be, it's unlikely to be a problem... OR you could use a 5-10a breaker on the lighting circuit (ever going to need more than 500-1000 watts?) and a pair of 20a for a couple of utility outlets and you're perfectly safe.

Thanks, Will do.

A note to everyone......Thanks for the help, it would not have been (safely) possible without the help!

:ro) TDP rocks :ro)

"Nigged up shop power source sparks multi million acre forest fire". No offense, but you want to make sure it is safe and reliable.
__________________

I'm not a racist but dang that there is funny!!!!:lol:

Manny, I applaud your efforts to do it yourself!! Thats the same way I learn how to do things too. Good for You!:r:thumb: :ro) :grd:

"Nigged up shop power source sparks multi million acre forest fire". No offense, but you want to make sure it is safe and reliable.
__________________

I'm not a racist but dang that there is funny!!!!:lol:

And here I was thinking that no one else uses the term 'nigged up' or 'ni%%er rig'.....

:D

Manny, I applaud your efforts to do it yourself!! Thats the same way I learn how to do things too. Good for You!:r:thumb: :ro) :grd:

Thank you sir.....but lets not count our chickens before theyve hatched.......):h

In other words, we aint out of the woods until I strike the arc on the welder a few times.......without fire. :D

In other words, we aint out of the woods until I strike the arc on the welder a few times.......without fire. :D
Which reminds me....

Make sure you've got a couple of class ABC, as well as a 5-gallon bucket of sand, and even some running water available.
And here I was thinking that no one else uses the term 'nigged up' or 'ni%%er rig'.....
Just not normally in polite company :D

"Nigged up shop power source sparks multi million acre forest fire". No offense, but you want to make sure it is safe and reliable.
__________________

I'm not a racist but dang that there is funny!!!!:lol:

:exactly:

I believe the preferred term is african-american engineering. Appologies to anyone who is offended.

New problem......

Local code calls for grounding rod to be 7.5 feet deep. Well, that aint happening......this is all on solid rock. Ide be lucky to pound it in a foot.......

On the flip side, I now have 8 ga ground coming from the main box........

Ya, #10 ground will be fine.
It will still be possible to overload the #6 neutral. To be 100% safe, all of the 110v breakers should add up to less than the capacity of the #6.

But like I said before.... with the lighting circuit as low as it probably will be, it's unlikely to be a problem... OR you could use a 5-10a breaker on the lighting circuit (ever going to need more than 500-1000 watts?) and a pair of 20a for a couple of utility outlets and you're perfectly safe.
How is the #6 neutral going to get overloaded when the welder doesn't use it and the rest of the stuff is on smaller breakers?

Fuse the #6 wires(are they copper) at 60 amps at the main panel.You can run a reduced neutural but not as reduced as #12.#10 at the least.Then do the ground rods at the garage.It would be easier to pull them all at one time and if it was stranded wire it would also make it easier.At the garage,run your # 6 wires into a 60 amp,4 circut box.2 110 circuts for the welder(110 times 2=240)1 for lights,and 1 for recepticles.If there was ever a overload issue,the 60 amp at the main panel should trip.I hope all of this will be some help.

Fuse the #6 wires(are they copper) at 60 amps at the main panel.You can run a reduced neutural but not as reduced as #12.#10 at the least.Then do the ground rods at the garage.It would be easier to pull them all at one time and if it was stranded wire it would also make it easier.At the garage,run your # 6 wires into a 60 amp,4 circut box.2 110 circuts for the welder(110 times 2=240)1 for lights,and 1 for recepticles.If there was ever a overload issue,the 60 amp at the main panel should trip.I hope all of this will be some help.

Yup, thats pretty much what Im planning on doing tomorrow.....

Unfortunately, I cannot pound a ground rod......ground is all rock.

How is the #6 neutral going to get overloaded when the welder doesn't use it and the rest of the stuff is on smaller breakers?
It's ONE #6, which means that the total current draw of ALL of the 110v branch circuits can not exceed 60a.

The 240v feed to the sub-panel is going through a pair of 60a breakers, one for each leg. It is theoretically possible therefore, for him to have six 20a 110v circuits coming off of that panel, all drawing 20a (with the welder off) and still not trip the main breaker.... however... as you can see, the #6 neutral will be carrying a 100% overload, as it will be carrying 120a back to the main panel (well... actually it'll carry the 120a only as far as the melted insulation allows where it'll dump to the conduit and make smoke).

In practice, when he's got the welder going, he'll also be running lights, and perhaps a shop heater (the heater will pull about 15a).
WITH the welder running, the main will likely trip before any of the branch circuits draw enough to burn the neutral... but he's not going to be running the chop saw or angle grinder WHILE he's running the welder, unless a buddy is helping... then we can overload the main breaker pretty quickly.

This is where balancing the load comes into play... For example, you don't want the shop heater and another high-current item on the same "leg".
I would run three branch circuits, one for overhead lighting, and even though lighting should be on it's own breaker, add a single outlet for some high-intensity lighting. There's 20a.
One circuit for the chop saw, angle grinder, power drill... basic shop tools. 20a.
The shop heater can go on it's own 20a breaker. I would put it on the same LEG as the lighting. This keeps the load from the heater on the opposite leg of the other high-draw items. I'd make it a practice to run the HI lighting only while welding and inspecting work, shutting it down when cutting or grinding.
Sizing the whole thing for a full 100a would make life a lot easier, but he's stuck with #6.


Now here's a little trick that homeowners can use to reduce their bill.
Your service is fed with two hots, 180 degrees out of phase.
To get 110v, one hot connects to neutral, but the meter does not look at the neutral... the meter looks at the hots, but is only "reading" the higher of the two legs.
For example... if you have a 1000 watt light and a 500 watt light and plug them both into the same outlet, you are drawing 1500 watts, and running for an hour will result in you being charged for 1.5kwh.
Move the 500 watt lamp to the next breaker down in the panel and you have now "balanced" the load.... you are only billed for 1kwh... the 500 watt light is FREE!
This is why 220v appliances are cheaper to operate than 110v appliances.

This needs to be done by someone who knows WTF they're doing, but the basic procedure is to "load" your home with a typical load. TV, common lights, computer, etc....
Now, with a clamp-on amprobe, check the current draw on each of the two legs. If they are severely out of balance, then start checking individual branch circuits and see if you can move or swap breakers around to even the load out.
After doing that, then maybe kick on the waterbed heater and another high-draw appliance like the microwave and see if the load is still balanced.
In theory, this can reduce your power bill by 30-50%, depending on how badly your load was balanced originally.
It took me about an hour to do and I saved about $10/month.

Yup, thats pretty much what Im planning on doing tomorrow.....

Unfortunately, I cannot pound a ground rod......ground is all rock.
Shovel/auger....

Dig it out and backfill.

The risk of not having a local ground is that earth resistance is high enough to allow a fatal voltage/current potential to develop over as little as 6 feet, IE, if you are grounded and are more than 6 feet from the ground rod and touch a GROUNDED but energized surface (like, say you're sweating, kneeling on concrete and the welder develops a fault bringing the chassis to line level).
A local ground rod will help to raise the floating potential of the ground in the area of the subpanel, reducing the potential between the concrete

Hmmm....What about digging a trench a foot or two deep and burying it horizontal?

There is no way to dig a hole 8 feet deep....Ide have to have it done.

It's ONE #6, which means that the total current draw of ALL of the 110v branch circuits can not exceed 60a.
He only had one 12 gauge neutral and 2 12 gauge hots before and didn't have any trouble so unless he starts running a lot of stuff, it will never even be close.

Hmmm....What about digging a trench a foot or two deep and burying it horizontal?

There is no way to dig a hole 8 feet deep....Ide have to have it done.
What kind of rock is it? You would be surprised what a grounding rod will go through when you have a big hammer. I would give it a try and see what happens.

Really reallly hard rock. Hard enough that the jackhammer rental place tried to charge me extra for turning the point into a nub. ):h

I have tried to pound in steel stakes (2 feet long), and 9/10 times the tips will bend underground.

I beleive NEC allows for the ground rod to be placed horizontally, and IIRC it has to be at least 2 feet underground...you may want to double check tho.

If you don't have a ground rod, the copper water pipe underneath your slab will take on the ground rod properties. Causing electrolisis which will end up eating the copper up and then you will have to replace that. So you better get it grounded. How about a hammer drill?

Success! I got a good chunk done this AM......wired one curcuit.

I for ground at the site, I got a little bracket that ties the ground to a bolt coming out of the foundation. Thats gonna have to do it........

He only had one 12 gauge neutral and 2 12 gauge hots before and didn't have any trouble so unless he starts running a lot of stuff, it will never even be close.
It still needs to be safe. If it's "possible" then it's possible that someone else working the farm might overload the circuit and start a fire.

If you don't have a ground rod, the copper water pipe underneath your slab will take on the ground rod properties. Causing electrolisis which will end up eating the copper up and then you will have to replace that. So you better get it grounded. How about a hammer drill?

The shop is detached from the house and there is arent any metal pipes under the slab......

Oh, and BTW, I kicked on the Miller Thunderbolt tonight and burnt some rod.....it worked very nicely! No fires, no tripped breakers, no melted wire.....nada! A friend of mine came over (he used to wire and weld professionally for the navy) and he said the wiring was textbook......Thanks to my DP buddies!!!

Maybe Ill snap some pics tomorrow......

Time to start making farm stuff.......