------->The UNI post-filter is noticibly darker<--------

Lighter is better! Note the OEM paper was lighter.

While not completely conclusive it does show the paper was, at least during this test, filtering better.

I wonder if K*****y will get on the BAT PHONE to the UNI president? Maybe we could cut up spicers filter to "prove" it is working correctly. We might even want to look at "low res" 200x300 optimised jpg's to determine that NO dirt passed through to "deeper layers"

Looks like all the people who ripped into me were ------> wrong <---------



PS I know there will be flames to follow. Bring them on. All you do now is show how much in denial you are.

Better yet you can run out and install an uni and destroy your engine.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/513_ang0015l.jpg

So all the motocross guys that run Uni almost exclusively are in big trouble.

Those engines are more sensitive to dirt than ours.

yawn........

Just for the heck of it, let's be serious for a minute. It's pretty much a given that paper is the best filter medium. I'm sure Spicers tests will show this as well. The after market filters, UNI and K&N, flow better than paper, but don't filter quite as well. In our diesels the extra flow is not needed. The paper provides all the air volume we need. On a bike more air flow is required than what the paper can provide. Also, the off road bike is going to go through mud and water. Both are bad for the paper filters. The UNI is a good compromise for the bikes. Better air flow, adequate filtration, and not harmed near as much by water. The specific application and requirements have to be taken into consideration. Just because one is best for one application does not mean it will be best for all applications.

One thing that crossed my mind through all of this. People keep saying that aftermarket flows better than paper. Really? I agree that if you take a flat foam and compare it to a flat paper of the same size that it will indeed flow better. But have you ever taken an ACDELCO apart and unfolded the paper? The surface area is HUGE! Yeah the paper is dense and restrictive but there is a huge amount of it for the air to move through.


JUST SOMETHING TO STIR UP THE KETTLE.

I'm trying to steer clear of conflict in this whole issue. I know that there are strong opinions and a lot of variables and I respect the right of individuals to make their own judgements regarding their preferences and vehicles. However, one inescapable observation is that I can really begin to see why Problemchild gets less than royal treatment from vendors when issuing customer complaints by his "style" being demonstrated here. Edited by: Idle_Chatter

I run a Uni in my dirtbike, never had any problems at all. Nice and clean on the inside.

PC


Keep the personal comments in check and criticism toned down please ....


The testing is inconclusive and has just begun ..


I will add in general this will stay civil fact finding not personal or part and or the entire topic removed ...


Thanks for "everyone's" assistance ....

I'm trying to steer clear of conflict in this whole issue. I know that there are strong opinions and a lot of variables and I respect the right of individuals to make their own judgements regarding their preferences and vehicles. However, one inescapable observation is that I can really begin to see why Problemchild gets less than royal treatment from vendors when issuing customer complaints by his "style" being demonstrated here.





I hear you. I made some personal opionons in regards to the air searators and was hit with return fire from both barrels. Peoples lively hoods are at stake. I am learning the entire concept of printing FACTS ONLY. Still not easy.


Anyone want to start a independent testing labrotory for the aftermarket automotive industry?

...[Anyone want to start a independent testing labrotory for the aftermarket automotive industry?


Sure thing, but only if I get to play with the "Go Fast" stuff!! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

PC - you have taken this whole issue too personally! Life is much too short to get all riled up. Suggest you go to a baseball game and jump the First Base Coach. Might make you feel better!

Mack, Thanks for putting the reins on, some of the guys need it!!

I forget, is Mac the Kettle or the Pot??http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif

Just for the heck of it, let's be serious for a minute. It's pretty much a given that paper is the best filter medium. I'm sure Spicers tests will show this as well. The after market filters, UNI and K&N, flow better than paper, but don't filter quite as well. In our diesels the extra flow is not needed. The paper provides all the air volume we need. On a bike more air flow is required than what the paper can provide. Also, the off road bike is going to go through mud and water. Both are bad for the paper filters. The UNI is a good compromise for the bikes. Better air flow, adequate filtration, and not harmed near as much by water. The specific application and requirements have to be taken into consideration. Just because one is best for one application does not mean it will be best for all applications.


Oldman, Not trying to stir things up, but if mods are added the stock filter doesn't flow enough air. I've installed several "juice" boxes and know that after adding an AFE stage II the smoke will clear up considerably on the lower end. tpitt

Any chance the darker display on the Uni post filter was... oil? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

I forget, is Mac the Kettle or the Pot??http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif


Actually I stir the soup ...


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Oldman, Not trying to stir things up, Better not, that's Mac's job! but if mods are added the stock filter doesn't flow enough air. I've installed several "juice" boxes and know that after adding an AFE stage II the smoke will clear up considerably on the lower end. tpitt


OK, good point. I was thinking strictly stock.

Any chance the darker display on the Uni post filter was... oil? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

According to the manufacturers, oil is not lost from the filter. The UNI post filter was darker and gained 25% more weight than the OE. Both of these post-filters will be analyzed by habanero at his lab. He is looking for oil from the filter(s). He will be getting 6 post filters from me.

I am getting ready to log on to the WI DNR website. I can get up-to-the-minute data on 2.5 micron Particulate Matter (PM) from their monitoring sites. There are 2 sites near me (about 10 miles away) and the data from these sites is an indication of the air quality in my area. If the PM data is very close over these 2 days, the "full throttle" 24 hour runs could be compared with "some" confidence. SPICER

"Oldman, Not trying to stir things up, but if mods are added the stock filter doesn't flow enough air. I've installed several "juice" boxes and know that after adding an AFE stage II the smoke will clear up considerably on the lower end. tpitt"





I think that statement is total poppycock.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif You were kidding , right? On the other hand, there was this post about headers for the Duramax; interested?Edited by: Diesel Power

Spicer- not sure about the oil not coming off. i've seen several intake tubes (running K&N, AFE, or UNI's that have pulled oil into the intake tube and it hit the back right where it makes the turn towards the rear of the truck. just be careful to not use too much oil.





and mike- i had to edit your post. something got messed up in the thread and it ran some posts together. i just took out the "quote" and "unqote" tags..Edited by: Diesel Power

I forget, is Mac the Kettle or the Pot??http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif


Actually I stir the soup ...


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif





Glad to see I am not the only one who noticed this. Mac, you secret trouble maker. Atleast I am obvious. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif

Spicer,


I just wanted to thank you personally.....for taking the time to do this and share your results. Neat stuff! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


FYI ....back to back runs on the dyno showed almost a 20hp gain between a stock air box with an 8,000 mile UNI and a brand new AFE Stage 2 on my truck with HJAT level 5. Was it the stock air box or the dirty UNI? I don't know. But these results could be further supported by the fact that at the LA dyno day SoCalDmax and I were seperated by about that much HP...we were both running the same Quad 215/HJAT type stack...and he had a stock airbox. Now whether or not the AFE filters the air as good as the Uni ...or stock .....is something I'm waiting for your tests to support. Keep up the good work! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

Trippin, I am sure that with a chip on level 5 you are sucking WAY more than the 700cfm/full throttle limits of my study. 710 cfm is actually full throttle at 3140rpm on a stock truck as I understand it. If a vehicle is modified then it would stand to reason that the stock intake/filter system would be limiting, especially on level 5!

And thank you for the uplifting words. SPICER

Spicer. I could see where a stock box could be restrictive and that would cause less air to be sucked in. But why would a juice stack make it pump more air. Every engine is just an air pump. The cc's didnt change.

I forget, is Mac the Kettle or the Pot??<IMG id=chkImg1 onmouseover="this.style.cursor='hand'" onmouseout="this.style.cursor=''" alt="Click on image to open in new window" src="smileys/Clown.gif" name=chkImg2> <IMG id=chkImg1 onmouseover="this.style.cursor='hand'" onmouseout="this.style.cursor=''" alt="Click on image to open in new window" src="smileys/Clown.gif" name=chkImg2> <IMG id=chkImg1 onmouseover="this.style.cursor='hand'" onmouseout="this.style.cursor=''" alt="Click on image to open in new window" src="smileys/Clown.gif" name=chkImg2>


Actually I stir the soup ...


Mac <IMG id=chkImg1 onmouseover="this.style.cursor='hand'" onmouseout="this.style.cursor=''" alt="Click on image to open in new window" src="smileys/Approve.gif" name=chkImg2>





Glad to see I am not the only one who noticed this. Mac, you secret trouble maker. Atleast I am obvious. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif


So are you guys secret spooners?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

More boost = more air going through the airbox. Stock is 22psi, Edge/*** 145hp could hit 28psi

One observation. Spicer 714 CFm is probally really close to max air flow. However I do not think that a performance box at level 5 will add a bunch more air flow. That is where all of the black smoke comes from. Much more fuel added but hardly any more air. I am not saying that air flow will not increase at all but just not proportionally. The intake and exaust tract litterally become " Stuffed,Plugged, Choked" with air.

It takes two things to make HP.......fuel and O2. I can tell you each time the Hp goes up so does the airflow. On a stock truck the mass airflow meter will read the incomeing airflow all day long, on a stack like Trippin runs the meter is maxed out by about 2000 RPM!

It takes two things to make HP.......fuel and O2. I can tell you each time the Hp goes up so does the airflow. On a stock truck the mass airflow meter will read the incomeing airflow all day long, on a stack like Trippin runs the meter is maxed out by about 2000 RPM!


Diesel tech,


If the MAF is maxed at 2G then what mode does the engine go into? Would a reclibrated MAF be benificial?


Also I understand air and fuel is reduired to make max HP. However there does become a point at which the air fuel ratio changes and you are adding more fuel as compared to air. Which would then change the air fuel ratio.


One other thing to consider. In a top fuel dragster. They are actually cramming the cylinders full of fuel. And really not much air. The Nitro methane fuel containes the air that is used in combustion. I wonder how much of the diesel fuel is supplying its own air/combustion?

Spicer,


I just wanted to thank you personally.....for taking the time to do this and share your results. Neat stuff! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


FYI ....back to back runs on the dyno showed almost a 20hp gain between a stock air box with an 8,000 mile UNI and a brand new AFE Stage 2 on my truck with HJAT level 5. Was it the stock air box or the dirty UNI? I don't know. But these results could be further supported by the fact that at the LA dyno day SoCalDmax and I were seperated by about that much HP...we were both running the same Quad 215/HJAT type stack...and he had a stock airbox. Now whether or not the AFE filters the air as good as the Uni ...or stock .....is something I'm waiting for your tests to support. Keep up the good work! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif





Trippin,


Your post is interesting to me. You are telling me that I will gain 20HP with the use of a AFE stage 2. I do not dispute your dyno findings. Couple of things come to mind. Would a STOCK truck see a 20HP gain or rather just highly modified engines?


Secondly as far as you and and Socal being 20HP off? Are you both using the same motor oil? Are you both using the same rear axel lubricant? Are your u-joints both new and well greased? Are you both running the same transmissions? With the same tranny fluid?


So many varibales from truck to truck. Not to mention tires,wheels,exaust engine manufacturing tolerences. Engine machining tolerances. Quality of fuel being used. So on and so forth.

afe makes power.........sounds cool too

We ran a stock airbox on a juiced truck on a dyno ..... Shut her down swapped in a AFE while it was still strapped down rolled her again and gained NAFT sep for noise ...Noise being whistle ....


That was our scientific study,simple and to the point ....


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gifEdited by: Mackin

stickers are worth 15rwhp

Panties on the rear mirror are worth another 25rwhp....

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We ran a stock airbox on a juiced truck on a dyno ..... Shut her down swapped in a AFE while it was still strapped down rolled her again and gained NAFT sep for noise ...Noise being whistle ....


That was our scientific study,simple and to the point ....


Mac http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif





I only wish this study was as easy as I thought. The problem is VARIABLES, and air has a LOT of them. I have all kinds of ideas but practicality and expense are at issue. The results I posted on the Air Filter Tests thread are actually the kind of data I originally intended to achieve. Then I modified my study plans to make for even more meaningful data. Then I realized these changes added variables that were OUT of my CONTROL and VERY IMPORTANT.


All of those uncontrolled variables are important for more thorough testing. However, for the sake of simple comparison testing (one filter vs. another, head to head) the data I posted is actually better than I originally intended. The reason is the data bank of air quality monitoring stations in my area giving me hourly Particulte Matter concentrations. This data will give me at least some idea of the PM floating around the test stand.


At this point I will take a breather and evaluate the direction of this study. I have some contacts that will hopefully offer some guidance. I still have some things to learn. SPICER


</BLOCKQUOTE>

Spicer,


I just wanted to thank you personally.....for taking the time to do this and share your results. Neat stuff! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


FYI ....back to back runs on the dyno showed almost a 20hp gain between a stock air box with an 8,000 mile UNI and a brand new AFE Stage 2 on my truck with HJAT level 5. Was it the stock air box or the dirty UNI? I don't know. But these results could be further supported by the fact that at the LA dyno day SoCalDmax and I were seperated by about that much HP...we were both running the same Quad 215/HJAT type stack...and he had a stock airbox. Now whether or not the AFE filters the air as good as the Uni ...or stock .....is something I'm waiting for your tests to support. Keep up the good work! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif





Trippin,


Your post is interesting to me. You are telling me that I will gain 20HP with the use of a AFE stage 2. I do not dispute your dyno findings. Couple of things come to mind. Would a STOCK truck see a 20HP gain or rather just highly modified engines?


Secondly as far as you and and Socal being 20HP off? Are you both using the same motor oil? Are you both using the same rear axel lubricant? Are your u-joints both new and well greased? Are you both running the same transmissions? With the same tranny fluid?


So many varibales from truck to truck. Not to mention tires,wheels,exaust engine manufacturing tolerences. Engine machining tolerances. Quality of fuel being used. So on and so forth.





Bronco, I don't think a stock truck will see the same benefits from an air filter as I did, simply because the demand for air is less, therefore the air box/intake may not be the restriction.


Just as Mackin did... I did a back to back on the dyno same day. I feel my dyno testing procedures are fairly accurate. I run three tests back to back to make sure that the baseline repeats itself. Then every change to the truck receives three back to back runs. If all three show the same result I move on. If one test shows something different, higher or lower I try to find out why and then repeat three more tests to substantiate the results. I'm not advocating that every one should buy an AFE. Nor am I saying that all trucks with my combination will pick up the same HP. As I stated..perhaps it had more to do with the UNI having 8,000 miles on it and the AFE being brand new. I'm just sharing my results with the community. As far as all the different variables you pointed out between my truck and SoCalDmax's.......congratulations you stated the obvious. I just found it an interesting observation between my truck's results and Socal's given the same type of stack.


Just more stuff along with all the other.....that makes you go Hmmmmmmm. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gifEdited by: Trippin

stickers are worth 15rwhp

can you get me 2 of them then I can get to 380

Has anybody dynoed a cold air sysrem with the hood closed? With a witness that does not know you? I don't think mtomac would lose a tenth of a second with factory air cleaner. Michael Tomac; feel free to chime in here.


mike

Tomac has a custom open face element and runs down the track one eyed cyclops'd ....


I think he's looking for the most air he can get ....


Anouther test I ran ,ready don't be http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Shocked.gif .....


I ran a pull ,NO aircleaner, nada, zilch, wideopen tube ,gained ??


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

Mack


I didn't quite understand that(no gain)? Steve Cole tried no air cleaner on the Transgo /TTS truck at the strip and gained zilch. My opinion on airboxes is like women; choose the one that makes you happy and you should not have to explain why you chose the one you did. And people should respect your choice as you respect theirs.(even if you think they are stupid) http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

NO GAIN .....





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

yeah i remember it almost sucked the filterwrap into the intake... and the gain??? IIRC it went down a hair.. no gainhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif

Has anybody dynoed a cold air sysrem with the hood closed? With a witness that does not know you? I don't think mtomac would lose a tenth of a second with factory air cleaner. Michael Tomac; feel free to chime in here.


mike





Mike, All witnesses present knew me. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif All my dyno runs at Westech were with the hood closed. An interesting thing happend with the hood closed.....all three stock air box runs were repeatable. The three AFE runs got worse with each run. I opened the hood and felt the metal intake pipe....you guessed it hot hot hot. We repeated the three AFE tests with the hood open....repeatable. Then repeated them with a fan through the one eyed jack, hood closed....repeatable. Then ran the stock air box again through the one eyed jack, hood closed....repeatable.


Mad scientist at work! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

Panties on the rear mirror are worth another 25rwhp....


Only if they smell usedhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

I would have to see who wore the pantys before i give an opine, http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

I would have to see who wore the pantys before i give an opine, http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


I just had a shallow Hal flashback. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Throw Up.gif

Well, they sure won't be PC's, they would not hang, they stay wadded up.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif

I'm not sure where this got started and where its going so forgive me if I am on the wrong track here - but is seems to me the principle reason for changing the filter or airbox to an aftermarket setup is not to add horsepower in of itself, but to facilitate the availability of additional horsepower via lower egt's yes?





http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

Mike L.


Now that I can finally reply. For some reason my other computer won't let me log on. I've had 3 different customers tell me of reduced smoke levels when starting out. Whether or not their stock filters were very dirty or not I do not know.


Maybe is because we still have clean air up here.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


I don't need any headers for my diesel it seems to run fine. I don't have anything for my LLY right now, but I'm sure it won't be that long until I will. Planning on doing my transmission next month when I go to Canada.


One thing about me is I don't have to prove anything to anyone, I pretty well know what works and what don't. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif I also know whom I'll do business with and whom I won't. tpitt

Well, they sure won't be PC's, they would not hang, they stay wadded up.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif


And if you hold them up to a light you could see tiny holes in them. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifEdited by: Dmaxcan