I know it's a lot newer, and we probably have not had enough time to tell about the long term service of the Duramax yet, but I still wonder. I want a truck mainly for long life. A lot of people tell me the Cummins is the best engine for that, but I still don't know. It was designed a long time ago, and it seems like some of the Duramax's newer technology would help it. I have heard of some already with over 400,000 on them, so I wonder which would be better for a long term engine.

I think the Duramax is a winner. Isuzu knows diesels very well.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

I think the core is as solid as it gets. The deisgn is not as mature as the Cummins, but I think just as good, and with every incremental upgrade, I think the future is Duramax.





Bill

Boys I think the Duramax is going to be just fine.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

Just ask my uncle and his son about the longevity of the all mighty cummins.

97 12valve, 5 speed
5th gear went out (nut holding gear on shaft backed off)
5th gear went out (nut holding gear on shaft backed off)
headgasket
headgasket
tranny went out (only had 4th gear)

98.5 24 valve, 6 speed
burnt piston (scored #1 cylinder)
headgasket
cracked block (the famous #53 block)

this is just the major stuffEdited by: mtomac

What good is the Cummins longevity if the truck its in is a piece of $h!7? Its only as good as the weakest link, which in Dodges case seems to be everything except the engine.Edited by: maynard9089

Deep Skirt block design ; Fracture split connecting rods; Just to name a couple. The DMAX is a awesome built engine. As the miles roll on a lot of folks will come to appreciate it. I have a friend who drives Hot Shot and he is nearing 200K. I am tenatively watching his progress as he packs these hardworking miles on rather quickly. I know of one Dodge that is not providing good service. (Nothing but trouble) But I can't speak for them all. And all brands can break.

Well check this little "nugget" out!!


http://www.osti.gov/fcvt/deer2000/beckerpa.pdf


I came across this item while searching for something else - I can't wait to supply this information to a Dodge Boy the next time he starts the "junk aluminum heads" smack! Seems that Cummins has been touting the BENEFITS of not only aluminum heads but ALUMINUM ENGINES since 2000!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif Take this link to the TDP and War Rooms!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

With 15 Million Diesel engines under their belt, I think they have learned a thing or two.

http://www.isuzu.co.jp/world/press/2001/p_1205.html

Isuzu first started to mass-produce diesel engines in 1938 at the Kawasaki Factory. It has taken the company 63 years to reach a total production figure of 15 million units, after expanding its production bases to Thailand, Indonesia, China, Poland and North America in recent years. The total number of diesel engines produced by Isuzu passed the 5 million units mark in 1985 and the 10 million units mark in 1994. The 15 million units mark has been reached in this, the company's 64th year of diesel engine production.

Fujisawa Factory <December 1962>* 9,110,000 units
Kawasaki Factory <August 1938> 2,970,000 units
Tochigi Factory <August 1990> 770,000 units
Hokkaido Factory <May 1987> 1,720,000 units
ISPOL (Tychy, Poland) <June 1999> 340,000 units
DMAX (Ohio, USA) <July 2000> 90,000 units


Edited by: Kendall69

You can make any truck last forever if you replace enough parts. In the case of Dod#e the Cummins will out last the rest of the truck 4 to 1. I have owned one Dod#e two Fords four Jeeps and 8 GM trucks. I have owned over 40 automobiles. The Dodge beyond a doubt was the worse excuse for a truck I have ever known. I wouldn't buy another one if it had a Rolls engine with a lifetime Warranty on it.


Thats my story and Im stickin to it.

With 15 Million Diesel engines under their belt, I think they have learned a thing or two.

http://www.isuzu.co.jp/world/press/2001/p_1205.html

Isuzu first started to mass-produce diesel engines in 1938 at the Kawasaki Factory. It has taken the company 63 years to reach a total production figure of 15 million units, after expanding its production bases to Thailand, Indonesia, China, Poland and North America in recent years. The total number of diesel engines produced by Isuzu passed the 5 million units mark in 1985 and the 10 million units mark in 1994. The 15 million units mark has been reached in this, the company's 64th year of diesel engine production.

Fujisawa Factory <December 1962>* 9,110,000 units
Kawasaki Factory <August 1938> 2,970,000 units
Tochigi Factory <August 1990> 770,000 units
Hokkaido Factory <May 1987> 1,720,000 units
ISPOL (Tychy, Poland) <June 1999> 340,000 units
DMAX (Ohio, USA) <July 2000> 90,000 units





These stats are interesting, but a little dated. The D-Max is over 400,000 units now. (Maybe 500,000+) So I know the others are higher also. And besides that, Isuzu is the number one Diesel engine manufacturer in the world.


I am at 54,600+ as I type this, and if I don`t get at least 250,000 more miles before trading up, I will be looking at the other two (Maybe 3 or even 4 by then) brands of diesel equiped trucks.

Durabill-- What year Dodge did you have? Was it a recent model truck? I hear that a lot, even from some of the same people that say the cummins is the best engine. Form looking at the new Dodges, I don't really see that they are more cheaply built than the Chevys or Fords, but I guess looking cheap and using cheap parts that fail early can be two different things.


That link about the aluminum Cummins engines was interesting. I took it that they were only trying the aluminum for weight reduction, and I really think thats the only reason for the aluminum heads in the Duramax. I'm not saying they are worse, they have definitely proven that there is nothing wrong with them, but I just don't think they were used because they were better for long life or strength reasons. I don't think Isuzu uses them in their other truck engines. I think they needed to save some weight, so they used aluminum, and then as a side effect, they happen to conduct heat better, so they use that as an advertising point. But, I'm not saying its bad. I wouldn't be trying to decide which one I think is the best engine if I thought there was anything wrong with the Duramax heads.

I've wondered whether the Duramax can last as long as a Cummins. What is it that is likely to wear out? People speak with awe about the longevity of the Cummins and I'm sure it's a fine engine, but last time I checked, it was still made with metal. The same sort of stuff used in the D'max. It has big, heavy internal parts, but that has its pluses and minuses. Heavy pistons require heavy rods, which require heavy cranks, which require robust journals and beefy bearings just to handle the stresses imposed by mass even before you address power induced stresses. The Duramax doesn't exactly seem wimpy. Has anyone ever broken a rod or lost the lower end on a D'max? There are some serious horse power and torque numbers being produced out there that ought to expose any inherent weaknesses in the units. So what will wear out on a Duramax before it would on a Cummins? Bearings, not likely with proper lubrication and maintenance. Rings? Valves? If so, why? Just asking. And by the way, not all Cummins last 1,000,000 miles.

TC

My Duramax out lasted my son's Cummins. He got tired of me blowing him off on the big hill and traded it for a new LLY. Later! Frank http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Thats very well said. Those are pretty much the exact same questions I have. I wonder exactly what would wear out on either engine before the other one. They both seem to be very strong engines that are not likely to break with power levels anywhere near stock. So it seems like it would come down to the one that will wear out first. So I wonder about the reasons why one would wear out before the other.

One of my customers WAS a diehard Dodge Cummins man. The day before yesterday he comes into our shop. I asked him which motor oil he prefered and he wanted to know why I was asking. I told him about my new Dmax and he motioned for me to go out to the parking lot with him. There sat a new Dmax dually, I almost fell down, I asked why the change in trucks, his reply: I needed a diesel that could tow with an automatic, the dodges have not been doing the job for him lately. He pulls trailers up to 17,000 lbs. Also he is a former marine diesel mechanic!


Corsair

The only archilles heel of our engines is an injector sticking open and torching a piston or leaking fuel in the crankcase and killing the turbo with the dilluted oil.

I had to rent a dodge while my truck was in the shop. The dodge tranny broke with 11 miles on it. It was a brand new rental and it broke.

The 5th slide of the Cummins presentation regarding fatique curves based on pressure cycles is interesting as aluminum (Al Alloy T6) fails in less cycles at high pressure than cast iron. Assuming T6 is similar to the Dmax's heads, that may not be good news for those applying max stresses to the Dmax. But the charts also show that those driving normal should experience fewer failures than a comparable cast iron head. Edited by: Ray403Dmax

unless you get a lemon all of the diesels will out last the truck. get the one that looks and sounds like you want it to.
i have a perfectly good 92 diesel for sale. doubt i could get $700 for it because its wraped in poo-poo

My dad retired from chrysler corp.He never owned a chrysler product.What does that tell ya.Yes the cummin is a good engine.Not my choice.My company runs detroit series 60's.Now thats my choice.Cummins gave us no support and constantly let us down.I looked at dodge but bought the the duramax and chevy





Tomslick24

What alloy T6? They don't say and it makes a BIG difference!

Jesus problem child, what the hell is it with you? Does everything turn to dust that you come across? I had to laugh when I read that one......please don't buy one of our boats, the damn bottom would probably fall out.

I think you are looking at it backwards about the chart in that link. It shows that the aluminum is stronger than the cast iron for high stress and lower numbers of cycles, but at low stress and high cycles, the cast iron would last longer. That would mean the aluminum was better for the people trying to get max power, but cast iron was better for people going for long life at stock power.


But I doubt that it really matters anyway. I don't see why the heads are under much stress in an engine. The head BOLTS, yes, but not the head material itself. I think the cycles of heating up and cooling would be more important.

The Duramax has only been around for about 5 or so years now. It will be a long time from now when we will find out which one will last the longest. If you go by the design, quality, size, and toughness of internal parts the answer is right there in front of you. If you go by Dodge or Chevy you don't really get a good idea because the Chevy is a much better built truck.


Horace

I think you can stop waiting, May only be 5 years, but the numbers don't lie.
check these numbers out
http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6988&PN=1

Look at the one guys tag line
01D/A K3500LT SOLD 483,500
02D/A K3500LT SOLD 506,455
03D/A K3500LT 345k
03D/M sold 411k

The Cummins is a good engine for sure. I'd also have to say that the urban legend Cummins Dodge trucks that have made it to 500+k miles weren't running 300hp like the Duramax more like 160hp. In fact up till 97 the most a Cummins Dodge was rated at was 175hp, 215hp from 97-98 and 235hp until the 305hp HO in 03. I'd have to say the Duramax would last pretty damn long at 160hp. Let's see how well the 300+hp Cummins hold up.

The Cummins is a good engine for sure. I'd also have to say that the urban legend Cummins Dodge trucks that have made it to 500+k miles weren't running 300hp like the Duramax more like 160hp. In fact up till 97 the most a Cummins Dodge was rated at was 175hp, 215hp from 97-98 and 235hp until the 305hp HO in 03. I'd have to say the Duramax would last pretty damn long at 160hp. Let's see how well the 300+hp Cummins hold up.

Very good point!

How does the Duramax have 5 years on it? 2001 was the first year for it, wasn't it? So late 2000 would have been the earliest you could get one, and that would mean the oldest ones are about exactly 3 1/2 years old, right?


But I agree about the big horsepower difference. That is one thing that makes me question which will last longer. The Cummins was probably originally designed for what, maybe 150 horsepower? I know its been through a lot of upgrades, but that doesn't change its original intentions. The 300+ that it has now is already turning it up a lot, even in a stock truck. But I assume the Duramax was really designed for 300 HP. So that makes me think it might handle that power longer than the Cummins. But I still don't know. I hear a lot of hotshotters turn up the cummins and still get high miles on them. Is that true?


But, I don't think the 500,000+ Cummins are just urban legends at all, even if they were only 160 HP. I don't think the occasional million mile Cummins is just an urban legend, either. Of course, I'm sure that wasn't at 300 HP.

How does the Duramax have 5 years on it? 2001 was the first year for it, wasn't it? So late 2000 would have been the earliest you could get one, and that would mean the oldest ones are about exactly 3 1/2 years old, right?


There were at least two years of extensive prototyping and test bed operations including the DuraMax Power Tour with the show trucks traveling the country and towing the presentation trailers. My "late build" 2001 was built in August of 2001 so there were a lot of trucks built in late 2000/early 2001 as you say. You're definitely right, though, more like just shy of 4 years for production trucks.

I had an old 71 Pontiac Catalina V-8 400 ci and it went over 350,000 miles without any engine work. And I thought that the American auto factoies built junk in the 70`s and that Diesels were so much better.


And there was the 95 Chevy 1/2 ton that Pennzoil bought from a guy in Georga that truck had over 1,000,000 miles wirh oil changes every 4 days. (approximately 3200 miles) A Pennzoil fast lube shop had the records of the truck from the time it was new. GM was not interested in the truck!


If I remember right, Pennzoil had the engine tore down and stated that it was in very good shape. And they even gave GM praise for building an excelent engine.


So the Duramax better get a 1,000,000 mile truck once in a while. 300,000-400,000 should be pretty common for the ones that treat them well and do not add to much power over stock.

How does the Duramax have 5 years on it? 2001 was the first year for it, wasn't it? So late 2000 would have been the earliest you could get one, and that would mean the oldest ones are about exactly 3 1/2 years old, right?


But I agree about the big horsepower difference. That is one thing that makes me question which will last longer. The Cummins was probably originally designed for what, maybe 150 horsepower? I know its been through a lot of upgrades, but that doesn't change its original intentions. The 300+ that it has now is already turning it up a lot, even in a stock truck. But I assume the Duramax was really designed for 300 HP. So that makes me think it might handle that power longer than the Cummins. But I still don't know. I hear a lot of hotshotters turn up the cummins and still get high miles on them. Is that true?


But, I don't think the 500,000+ Cummins are just urban legends at all, even if they were only 160 HP. I don't think the occasional million mile Cummins is just an urban legend, either. Of course, I'm sure that wasn't at 300 HP.








The cummins is used in medium duty trucks and marine applications with near 400 hp it is way detuned in the dodge applacations.

I didn't think the medium duty versions went above about 250. Is that right? I think its the same way as the International 6.0. In medium duties, its not tuned for as much power and rpms as in the Ford pickups. I think there is also a lower power version of the Duramax that is in some medium duties.


Are there really marine applications of the Cummins close to 400 HP? I didn't know that. How long do they hold up running that much power?

As you can see Isuzu has been building v8 diesels for over


half a century.


http://www.isuzu.co.jp/world/corporate/engine/history.html


Nigel

I didn't think the medium duty versions went above about 250. Is that right? I think its the same way as the International 6.0. In medium duties, its not tuned for as much power and rpms as in the Ford pickups. I think there is also a lower power version of the Duramax that is in some medium duties.


Are there really marine applications of the Cummins close to 400 HP? I didn't know that. How long do they hold up running that much power?








Yes I beleave the marine version is rated at 370hp and is ran at 3000 rpm. I did not know about the 400 hp in medium duty trucks but I read on one of these forums that a guy had bought a f700 ford with the 5.9 cummins when someone asked why he did not get the powerstroke he replied because it did not come rated at 400hp. Look at the size of the cummins parts and you can see it is truly made for heavy duty applications. I don't know how long they would last in a boat but that is some of the most severe duty you can get because of the rpms that is needed.

Yesterday I did a bit of trap shooting with the dealer from whom I bought my Dmax in Jan. '03.


He told me that he has one customer whose truck is very close to 400k. Has never had anything done to it but oil changes and the related PM!


But this truck is being used under ideal conditions, makes a run from Atlanta, GA to Jacksonville FLA and back every day. Almost all miles are on interstate hwy.