Looks like we're getting close to the release of the TTS PL-III. Nice write up in the March issue of DieselPower Magazine. Gives HP & Torque numbers from some dyno runs. Model featured has four available tunes that are adjustable - Stock, Economy, Tow & Race. Time to get the tranny done!! :D

Cool, how about posting the numbers?

ya lets see them numbers that have been hiding from everyone!

I guess I will hold off on ordering the Predator if this thing is really close to coming out!

I heard 440HP for the LLY

Thats not near as much as the old xtreme tune for the lb7. He said we would be very suprised with the new power levels???:confused:

here are the numbers according to the magazine all numbers are approximates from the graphs

economy mode: 260hp 525tq
tow mode: 340hp 675tq
race mode: 415hp 825tq

tow tune: 58hp and 150tq at wheels
race tune: 128hp and 315tq at wheels

like i said these are what i took from the graphs in the mag. you might see them different.

side note to McRat, the truck they used looks like a reg. cab casper

they also put drugs on the test truck and got 527hp and a hair over 1000tq at wheels. funny they don't mention any trans. work:D

meh... guess I wont be saving up for this... You can make more than that with a PPE HOT/VA stack.

no offence to Steve and his team, but I kinda expected at least 460 or so at the rear wheels for the LLY... :(

--ben

the truck they used looks like a reg. cab casper


My guess is that would be Steves truck

the new diesel power mag is out already because i have been waiting for mine to come in the mail i hope it gets here soon

I was thinking more power too. How much additional HP is the race tune for the LB7? Also will the PLIII stack well with anything?

The testing was only the Stock to Race tunes not the Xtreme. The LB7 Race tune is +120 RwHp the LLY Race tune is +128 RwHp which puts it right were we wanted it. This is what most people buy so that was what was tested. The Xtreme numbers are higher. People asked us for a stock position so we've added that. This gives you Four switch on the fly programs to selecet from Stock, Economy, Tow and Race. TTS is the orginal switch on the fly program, we've made them for several years and we still lead the way on the Switchable programs. When the Xtreme is release there will be a few more suprises.

why would anyone want to drive with a stock program if the economy has better milage? O and this is a lot better news thanks steve!!!

Thanks for clearing that up.

Some complained about the "twitchy" throttle when trying to back up trailers with the 80HP setting on the ECM switchable tunes. The stock position would be ideal for this.

I don't have a need for a stock tune, but I can see where it might be handy.

You really cant listen to these magazines, because you dont know what they are really doing.

I do believe that I spied a DP sticker on the back glass when it's on the dyno, did I not?

so is the new mag out or what
what is on the cover i have a subscription but no mag yet

so is the new mag out or what
what is on the cover i have a subscription but no mag yet
:(Banks SuperDookie
The one they raced the Baja 1000 in.

:(Banks SuperDookie
The one they raced the Baja 1000 in.
Man this sucks. I've got a subscription also and still haven't received mine.

Okay, I can't really decide what forum this question belongs in so here it is...How do I subscribe to Diesel Power Magazine? I can't find it locally or on the internet.

:help:

https://store.primediamags.com/subscribe/dieselpowermag/6215/I5AB61

...thangya, thangya very much...:ro)

I felt the same way about a stock position so that's why I left it out the first time but it was the most asked for modification we get so it's now in there for those who want it. I have not seen the article yet so I cannot comment on it other than they used my truck for the testing and it's the same tuning that's been in it since last Spring. There is another DP member that has been running beta testing for us for quite sometime. I talked with him today and told him he could now comment away since the article is out already. We did not expect the article to come out for another month.

Man this sucks. I've got a subscription also and still haven't received mine.

what is the deal when did you fill out your subscription

what is the deal when did you fill out your subscription
Way back in December.

I felt the same way about a stock position so that's why I left it out the first time but it was the most asked for modification we get so it's now in there for those who want it. I have not seen the article yet so I cannot comment on it other than they used my truck for the testing and it's the same tuning that's been in it since last Spring. There is another DP member that has been running beta testing for us for quite sometime. I talked with him today and told him he could now comment away since the article is out already. We did not expect the article to come out for another month.

Now that the article is out, can YOU (Steve) "comment away"?-- as some of us don't have access to this article, and we haven't seen alot of other comments here on DP. Specifically, what features does PL3 include? Configurations? Prices? Thanks, Paul.

Not sure I'll be waiting for this anymore... doesnt seem to be worth 2x more than the Predator.

Not sure I'll be waiting for this anymore... doesnt seem to be worth 2x more than the Predator.

Well, that depends on what it's got. I didn't wait either-- purchased an Edge EZ a few months ago. But I might be trading in, depending on what PL3 has got. --Paul.

For those of you that have subscribed to the magazine and not received a copy yet, be patient. I subscribed last August and it took about 4 months to get my first issue through the mail. I also only get 6 issues for the same price you now can get 9 for. I will agree that it's strange that I would receive my copy so soon considering that I live in GA and the headquarters for Primedia is in Anaheim, CA.

Thanks 04llygmc for posting the number from the article. I think we will be pleased when the Xtreme tune numbers are released.

Well, that depends on what it's got. I didn't wait either-- purchased an Edge EZ a few months ago. But I might be trading in, depending on what PL3 has got. --Paul.

I have EFI Live but I sill will probably buy Steve's program because I want the power now and it seems like it's taking me forever to get a smooth running high power tune out of EFI. I can tune RF circuits all day long but tuning these trucks is another thing all together.

TTS didnt let the LB7 guys down, so I feel sure they wont let us LLY guys down either.

I have EFI Live but I sill will probably buy Steve's program because I want the power now and it seems like it's taking me forever to get a smooth running high power tune out of EFI. I can tune RF circuits all day long but tuning these trucks is another thing all together.

Patience Grasshopper. ;)

I bought the EFILive with the primary intent of making stoopid power with it.

I might have got a late start, but I don't give up too easy.

I have EFI Live but I sill will probably buy Steve's program because I want the power now and it seems like it's taking me forever to get a smooth running high power tune out of EFI. I can tune RF circuits all day long but tuning these trucks is another thing all together.

Go for another ride in PURE DIESELS truck........you need to just dig in........:D

This is not going to be learned in a few tries......but it can be done......:cool:

Patience Grasshopper. ;)

I bought the EFILive with the primary intent of making stoopid power with it.

I might have got a late start, but I don't give up too easy.I didn't mean to sound like I was giving up. I just think when I need it Steve's program will be there for me until I can get the job done. Plus it may give me an idea on what I may need to change with what I am doing. I so far am happy with what I've done. Just tweaking it now but I think it's a lot better than what I had with the Predator 120hp tune.

Go for another ride in PURE DIESELS truck........you need to just dig in........:D

This is not going to be learned in a few tries......but it can be done......:cool:
I beleive you.:cool:

Not sure I'll be waiting for this anymore... doesnt seem to be worth 2x more than the Predator.

The Predator doesn't "switch on the fly"...

damn i better not have to wait like four months for mine i will be pissed if that is the case
It's been talked about before, the subscriptions did not go in effect until the first issue of 06, so no matter when you subscribed, you weren't getting the first issue mailed to you until the first of this year. .

I have been driving this tuner for several months. Excellent driveability in all positions. Have to check switch to be sure which tune I am running. Have NOT run on dyno or track yet. I leave in "race" unless i am towing. Little or no smoke in any position. Hard to believe it is a performance tune unless you step on it.
Any questions, either reply or PM

Frank

When it's released, will the LLY extreme be included?

Thanks,
Rob

What he said, will it include the Xtreme??:exactly:

Does it add boost? Cost? Available now? Inquiring minds want to know~

Can you revert back to stock without swapping an ECM? --Paul.

Can you revert back to stock without swapping an ECM? --Paul.

I have the same ?

And if you do revert it back to stock with the PL3 work on another truck?

Rob & Tall - current version does not include the extreme

sixpak - boost is controlled, cost I do not know, available April ??

Paul and Lakingslayer and Max - I am running Beta version, do not have actual box, only programming. Expect ECM to lock as does PL II, but don't know for sure....perhaps Steve can respond better...

I am sure that the PL-III will marry to the ECM and allow you to load the tunes into the ECM once and then use the switch to change tunes on the fly.

I would think that it wil lock the ECM down and not allow it to be restored to stock either.

I could be wrong, but knowing that competitors would like to copy TTS's programming I am sure it will work as the previous PL-II did and lock the ECM down.

It is anyone's guess if the Xtreme would be included, but since it is a HP program TTS may still elect to do them in house.

T:cool: NY
.
.

One would hope it could be returned to stock so you could reinstall it and reset for tire size if you change size. Scanning codes and live data monitering would be good as well. After all other programmers have some of those abilities so if it's supposed to be a better setup then it should do everything the predator/bullydog/superchips/hypertech/ppe can do plus more.

If it locks itself in then I would think what would kill most potenial(sp) buyers. I know I want to be able to go back to completely stock (if you will) at will. I understand They, TTS, need to protect their programs from thieves, but I guess I was just hoping that it wont be stuck in the ecm forever.

The stock program is available, TTS has stated that that was the most requested feature wanted was the stock tune available.

I am sure more details will follow.

If it locks itself in then I would think what would kill most potenial(sp) buyers. I know I want to be able to go back to completely stock (if you will) at will. I understand They, TTS, need to protect their programs from thieves, but I guess I was just hoping that it wont be stuck in the ecm forever.

I'm sure what "locked in" means is that you can only load one ECM/vehicle at a time with a performance tune. In order to use it on another vehicle, you have to first restore the original vehicle back to stock. This is how the Predator works. I would guess others use the same idea.

I'm sure what "locked in" means is that you can only load one ECM/vehicle at a time with a performance tune. In order to use it on another vehicle, you have to first restore the original vehicle back to stock. This is how the Predator works. I would guess others use the same idea.
This isn't quite like the predator. "Locked in" means that the ECM cannot be written to again by another program/programmer other than the Power Loader. On this one Steve may have it so we can unload the PLIII and put the original stock tune back in but I'm not sure.

if this doesnt have the extreme or the ability to go back to stock/sell it they nolonger have my sale, ill go with the proven stack mcrat runs.....

The PowerLoader III is just the tool that installs the programming. What programming is in the Power Loader is a function of what is ordered. If you want the Xtreme no problem but it needs to be ordered as an Xtreme tune. If you do not want the Xtreme then order the non Xtreme version. I would love to discuss all the features of the unit but not until they are released. What I can tell you is the unit comes with 12 months free upgrades, so anything we add/change whether it be part of the tuning or the tool functions.

if you cant that is stupid because what if you want to chang programs or get rid of the tts i dont think that is a good feature fort he buyers of this product

Nobody up untill possibly recently (EFI) has been able to touch the Extreme on the LB7 program. I'm sure Steve has taken the return to stock factor into consideration when he designed the PLIII. What it will have implemented isn't quite clear yet.

(Of course Steve is a bit quicker than I am on the responses. He must have an extreme program):h

I just can't wait to see the numbers for this xtreme tune. I have a feeling it is going to be awesome.:ro)

i know on my truck the extreme is a bit touchy for trailer manuvering, but the 80 seems just like stock when it comes to barely touching the pedal.. i tried it a couple days ago when i moved my boat around.. i ended up putting it back into the extreme as i had to race a explorer with boat in tow :)

Some complained about the "twitchy" throttle when trying to back up trailers with the 80HP setting on the ECM switchable tunes. The stock position would be ideal for this.

I don't have a need for a stock tune, but I can see where it might be handy.

i know on my truck the extreme is a bit touchy for trailer manuvering, but the 80 seems just like stock when it comes to barely touching the pedal.. i tried it a couple days ago when i moved my boat around.. i ended up putting it back into the extreme as i had to race a explorer with boat in tow :)

That's not a race that's a killing:ro)

Another smoke and mirrors , for tts , lets brig out a highly touted product that has potential , but not give the customers the real deal , REMOVEABLE , PROGRAMING AND EXTREEM HP, with the new unit I could use a predator to monitor my data( it will do any data logging just as good as any good handheld) and just buy a old PL2 ad call it a day . The newer unit better be lower in cost to be competitive or it will be a thing of the past as consumers dont want a locked ecm that cant be switched back for warranty work if needed. Now with EFI, you can switch on the fly , (who cares who was first , we can all do it now ) . Locked ECM and high cost = low consumer demand as the market will demand lower priced tuners that will allow them flexibility .

I'm sure what "locked in" means is that you can only load one ECM/vehicle at a time with a performance tune. In order to use it on another vehicle, you have to first restore the original vehicle back to stock. This is how the Predator works. I would guess others use the same idea.

On TTS prev. powerloader it locked in for good, as in you can not take it back out, if you want to go back to stock or take it to a dealer for warranty work you had to buy another ecm. It is not like the pred.

I've been waiting for months (as have many others) and we still haven't gotten the scoop on the Extreme. I hope it's some big tune with all this dancing around.

...i had to race a explorer with boat in tow :)

Didn't your momma ever teach you not to pick on the little guys? :lol:

The PowerLoader III is just the tool that installs the programming. What programming is in the Power Loader is a function of what is ordered. If you want the Xtreme no problem but it needs to be ordered as an Xtreme tune. If you do not want the Xtreme then order the non Xtreme version. I would love to discuss all the features of the unit but not until they are released. What I can tell you is the unit comes with 12 months free upgrades, so anything we add/change whether it be part of the tuning or the tool functions.

this new one sound like it is going to be really good IMO

a thought that i had was that it would be cool if the ECM was locked only when the program was installed but when you remove it or set it back to stock the ECM would be unlocked buyt when it was installed that would be the only time that is was looked i think that would be a good feature

On TTS prev. powerloader it locked in for good, as in you can not take it back out, if you want to go back to stock or take it to a dealer for warranty work you had to buy another ecm. It is not like the pred.

As much as I like performance, I'm not so sure I could go with that idea.

a thought that i had was that it would be cool if the ECM was locked only when the program was installed but when you remove it or set it back to stock the ECM would be unlocked buyt when it was installed that would be the only time that is was looked i think that would be a good feature

Unless the strategy has changed, the TTS tuning will leave a "stain" on your PCM that needs a 100% reflash to remove. IF it can be removed. So even if you want to overwrite it with another tune, your PCM might not be usable with other tuners.

So unless you have an extra PCM or a Tech II, you should consider a TTS tune a permanent modification. I'm sure TTS will step in and correct me if I'm wrong.

IMO, it should be able to be removed easily, so if I run one, it will be burned on a backup PCM, which is for TTS tuning only. Good news is you can swap PCM's in 3 minutes with a little practice.

What About No Practice:eek: , And Loading A Tune And Having The Hp , And Being Able To Take It Off For Unseen Waranty Work ;) , With Out Even A Tool Needed!!!!!:eek: now Thats Cutting Edge !!;) SEEMS THIS IS A CASE OF A OLD UNIT IN A NEW CASE !!!!!:mad:

If a person were to obtain second ecm for stock operation, or use with other tuners, would the current mileage, engine hours etc have to be programed in? My concern would be telltale evidence if injector problems reared their ugly head while on a long trip. I understand the pay to play rational, but what if I've been using the tow mode, or the economy mode. If the injectors failed under that senario, I would expect that GM should foot the bill. Anyone know what would happen if I had a injector fail hundreds of miles from home? Would I be stuck with the bill?

Yes, the engine hrs and mileage are not stored in the PCM. It's in the instrument cluster.

You should buy the second ECM for use with the TTS, and leave your OEM one stock or for tuning with other tuners. To the best of my knowledge, the TTS is the only tune that leaves marks, so testing other tuners on your original ECM is pretty safe.

Thanks for the quick reply Pat. I've got an '03 lby, but I doubt that makes much difference. Oh, the temptation for more power. BTW I'm about an hour east of you.

just for my information how much is a new ECM and how would you go about getting one. seeems like it would cost alot for a new computer.

also i would like to know how the switch is wired in and where the wires are run to and from

McRat

So Pat where do you get all this information? Do you just dream it up? A "stain" that only TTS leaves. I can find out if your ECM has been programmed regardless of who or what has done it and so can GM. It's all up to how hard they want to look.

McRat

So Pat where do you get all this information? Do you just dream it up? A "stain" that only TTS leaves. I can find out if your ECM has been programmed regardless of who or what has done it and so can GM. It's all up to how hard they want to look.



Is any of my info false? ;) When a PPE or Predator or LS1Edit or Bully Dog or EFILive "returns to stock", there is no mark that will show up on a TechII except the Hours/Miles since PCM Reset, that I can seem to find.

Anyhow, it would be nice if your new product had the ability to totally return the vehicle to stock like other programmers do. It's one of the few complaints folk have had with your tuner, and might increase your sales to those who are "Warranty Shy".

I have been hesitant to post on this thread, but here goes.

I am new to the diesel world and have been very slow in deciding which tuner to purchase for my vehicle. I had it narrowed down to the predator, due to it's reasonable cost and other features. Most importantly, the ability to remove the program when necessary to go to the dealer for warranty work.

TTS has a great reputation as far as I can tell and most on this forum agree that their extreme program for the original dmax was awesome.

I have not yet purchased the Predator because I want to see what the TTS programmer has to offer; however, I can tell you without a doubt that I will not purchase it if I cannot remove the program when I need to go to the dealer.

sorry another side question is TTS planning on making a powerloader for the LBZ? i thought that they wernt going to make one for the lly because it has been out for over 2 or 3 years now and they are finally coming out with a programer for it just now. and i take it it will be another 2 or 3 years for a programmer for the lbz (if there is one).

i just hopw that tts and other companies don't do what efilive are doing and saying that they will not continue there products for the new generation motors because the programs are in a different "language" with the new ecm or what ever they said

McRat

So Pat where do you get all this information? Do you just dream it up? A "stain" that only TTS leaves. I can find out if your ECM has been programmed regardless of who or what has done it and so can GM. It's all up to how hard they want to look.

CAP

Cutting edge, you have got to be kidding me. Better keep your laptop in the truck at all times just in case you need to switch the tune. Then again when you blow the ECM up you better have a spare ECM too.

http://dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64160

Tuning products have been out for years, old news.


No need for a laptop to switch , sounds just like yours, a pin in 69 Probably and a switch and walla!! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61182 just read its all there!!! As for the thred that you claim will blow your ECM !!!! consider that a Learning glitch in the software , every tuner has had some programing issues that will have to be corrected, EVEN YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED THAT!!! What really is amazing is how they handled it , fast and with professionalism.

This is not a tts bashing thred , however we as customers want the ability to remove a tune with out removing a ECM , If you cant make that happen , YOU WILL LOSE MARKET SHARE!!! as others have caught up or have surpassed you PPE made 500hp on a tune alone, (on a dyno that the customer ran his stock truck with 240 hp stock and 500hp with a tune and 553hp with a Edge stack ) http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59837

Efi has already approached the 500 hp level and will hit it VERY SOON!!!
Seems to me that nobody wants a old style design that they can get the same or better hp# with and have more flexibility.
Is it that if you make a removable programer your tune will not be protected :eek: ? YOU MAKE IT REMOVABLE AND YOU WILL DOUBLE YOUR SALES !!!!!!!! ;) ILL EVEN TRY ONE AND SEE IF IT WILL RUN BETTER THAN WHAT I HAVE :eek: OR ELSE BE SITTING IN THE SMOKE OF THE COMPITITION !!

UH-OH CHRIS!!! NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!! :D

--ben

Hey, I feel the same way. I have no favorable or unfavorable opinions about any company, but I have been eagerly awaiting the arrival of the TTS Extreme and no we get their people dancing around the real questions. As I said, I have no ties with any company so I WILL USE THE ONE THAT MAKES THE MOST POWER--plain and simple.

I wish we could hear the truth and TTS would quite feeding us lines, afterall, we are the consumers that will make or break their new product!!!

Just because TTS had the first Extream LB7 tune ( which is one of many choices now), Why would you think the would have the best extream LLY tune, Where there already some LLY tunes and stack catching up to LB7 #'s?

Personaly I would like to see another showdown of Tunes at the Track. Using similar trucks that could make severl runs to get a good avgerage( not just one lucky run for either side). Dyno #'s only say so much.

Is any of my info false? ;) When a PPE or Predator or LS1Edit or Bully Dog or EFILive "returns to stock", there is no mark that will show up on a TechII except the Hours/Miles since PCM Reset, that I can seem to find.

Yes, your information is false. You may not know how to see it but rest assure I can and so can GM if they want too.

sorry another side question is TTS planning on making a powerloader for the LBZ?

Yes, we are working on the programs for the LBZ. The PowerLoader III will already program the LBZ computer we just need to work out the programming itself.


as others have caught up or have surpassed you PPE made 500hp on a tune alone, http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59837


ppe hot alone 500.6 h.p., 956.55 tq. from your thread

TTS 2 year old Xtreme 519/1065 on #2, 687/1418 with some help
http://dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62935&page=6

Unless I'm reading it wrong they still haven't got to the levels we've been at for over 2 years.


We will not discuss the features of the PowerLoader III until it's released, I do not know how many times I need to say that.

Is It Because You Don't Want To Tell Any One It Wont Be Removable !!!:eek: , So You Can Create Interest In A Product That Will Not Live Up To Its Hype :( !!!!! Westers Ran A 539hp On #2 , The Ppe Tune That Was Run Was A Smaller Version Than The New Curant Hot +2 et, It Is In The Thred ):h , Stating That !! THE NEWEST VERSION HAS NOT BEEN DYNOED YET BUT I WILL VERY SOON , WITH A TECH II AND ERIC TO WHITNESS!!;)
AGAIN ITS NOT A JAB AT YOUR POWER RATINGS IT IS A JAB AT THE DESIGN OF THE UNIT AND THE ARCHAIC DESIGN. LOCKING UP A ECM , :badidea: IF YOU RUN A RACE ONLY TRUCK , WITH NO WARANTY ISSUES FINE , BUT I WOULD HATE TO BE TURNED DOWN FOR WARANTY WORK FROM A LOCKED ECM

all Diesel Tech has to tell us is, is it still going to lock the ECM or is it going to be removable

Is any of my info false? When a PPE or Predator or LS1Edit or Bully Dog or EFILive "returns to stock", there is no mark that will show up on a TechII except the Hours/Miles since PCM Reset, that I can seem to find.
Pat, I'm trying to clarify that the mileage is only kept in the "instument cluster". In the above quote it seems you are saying that mileage/hours, is also kept in the ecm, at least those since the last programming. Do you or anyone else know exactly how and what is stored? Curious.

My interest in this is not that I'm trying to shirk any responsibility, but rather that I'm not going to be subjected to denied warranty on defective GM products. I've been down this road twice with them. Once on a 97 Yukon with a loud start up knock that GMC adamantly refused to fix, even with repeated attempts. (After buying GM's extended warranty, I got CHEVY to fix it by replacing the crank and bearings) Then GM burned me again on my knocking 5.3 ugh. I had sworn off GM, then went to get a powerstroke 6.0. After the test drive, with romps, banging gears etc, I end up with the max which I still enjoy. Sorry for the rant.

Sorry guys, the first paragraph should have been highlighted in quotes. I clicked the wrap quote tags, but must of made an error. I think I know what I did. And yes, I'M OVER 50! Dam*

I'm sure Steve is aware that people would prefer something that they can return to stock, no one needs to tell him this. I'm sure people are awear that if you cant it creats an issue of needing to swap ECM's(a few minute deal with a 1/4" ratchet) if you go to the dealer. People will either buy it or not depending on thier personal choices, it adds to the cost(needing a spare ecm you can buy off ebay or TTS) and PITA factor of needing to remove it(in practice no more work than removing a juice box). No need for others to say its a PITA becasue the purchaser can see this going in. There is absolutly no reason to bring this point up again.

Along with all of you I would like to see some details ahead of time on this(especially if it will return a vehicle to stock) but if Steve dosnt want to spill the beans thats his choice and saying all he has to do is tell you X accomplishes nothing.

Is any of my info false? When a PPE or Predator or LS1Edit or Bully Dog or EFILive "returns to stock", there is no mark that will show up on a TechII except the Hours/Miles since PCM Reset, that I can seem to find.
Pat, I'm trying to clarify that the mileage is only kept in the "instument cluster". In the above quote it seems you are saying that mileage/hours, is also kept in the ecm, at least those since the last programming. Do you or anyone else know exactly how and what is stored? Curious.

My interest in this is not that I'm trying to shirk any responsibility, but rather that I'm not going to be subjected to denied warranty on defective GM products. I've been down this road twice with them. Once on a 97 Yukon with a loud start up knock that GMC adamantly refused to fix, even with repeated attempts. (After buying GM's extended warranty, I got CHEVY to fix it by replacing the crank and bearings) Then GM burned me again on my knocking 5.3 ugh. I had sworn off GM, then went to get a powerstroke 6.0. After the test drive, with romps, banging gears etc, I end up with the max which I still enjoy. Sorry for the rant.

I've swapped PCM's quite a bit. Mileage doesn't not change when I swap. I've changed instrument clusters, and it does change. What the PCM stores is "Miles since last diagnostic error code reset". It's a number that resets to zero normally whenever you reprogram a vehicle or clear the trouble codes.

If a dealer said, "Why is was your PCM reset 5 miles ago?" You might want to answer, "I took it to Autozone to read the codes, and they reset it."

Other than that, a Chevy tech is not going to be able to tell what is up.

I am 99% sure there is no way GM armed with a TechII can tell if your ECM was ever programmed with a handheld / laptop but returned back to stock (assuming it is not locked and can be returned to stock).
All the dealer can see on the TechII is the Calibration part numbers in the ECM, our product does not alter them at any stage (unless you program a different calibration set it), however, returning to stock does just that, returns everything back to how it was.
I have personally been down this path with a local GM dealer years ago when they were having transmission failures (4L60E) with the LS1, turns out most of these cars had been tuned with LS1Edit (yes that program leaves a 'stain'), but there was no way a dealer with the TechII / SPS could ever tell even though we knew where to look.


Of course if you are running a switchable tune the dealer minght question why you needed to run an extra wire from the ECM!.

Cheers,
Ross

it adds to the cost(needing a spare ecm you can buy off ebay or TTS) and PITA factor of needing to remove it(in practice no more work than removing a juice box). No need for others to say its a PITA becasue the purchaser can see this going in. There is absolutly no reason to bring this point up again.

Diesel ECM 's are tough to come by on Ebay, FYI, unless TTS can supply ECM's (they probably can) the yards want anywhere between $200 and $400 for an LLY ECM.

Cheers,
Ross

The Tech II will show a lot more than the part number if you have the proper software and knowledge to operate it with. Yes, they can tell. It all boils down to the Tech at the dealer and the GM warranty person. If GM really wants to know all the programming history is there to be found. Each and ever time it's programmed it's there. Doesn't matter who did it or how it was done it's still there. So when GM says your warranty is void because you've programmed your vehicle 100 times what are you going to say? On the other hand if the Tech says it failed and everything checks out, "it's warranty work" most of the time GM never gets involved. The problem is the "stain" comment is just BS and is someone else trying to promote their own agenda!

I'll gracefully bow out of the discussion and take my agenda with me. :D

The Tech II will show a lot more than the part number if you have the proper software and knowledge to operate it with.

That's the whole point, dealers do not have special TechII software, GM makes the whole system point and click without thinking about anything so a tech cannot program the wrong info in, perhaps you have some special TechII software, but you know and I know the 'level' of knowlege most warranty guys at dealerships have and it does not extend to the bits and bytes level going on inside an ECM.

Not sure if the 'stain' comment was directed at me?, if it was, it shouldn't be.

Cheers,
Ross

Not sure if the 'stain' comment was directed at me?, if it was, it shouldn't be.

Cheers,
Ross
It was directed at McRat as you case see a few posts up.

Nevermind, I have edited my post. I'll bite my tounge, I have nothing positive to add to this thread.

Nevermind, I have edited my post. I'll bite my tounge, I have nothing positive to add to this thread.

Thank you BeagleBuggy as this one is starting to sway. :)




I would like to keep it on track from here everyone. In case you all forgot,the topic is


TTS PL-III featured in DieselPower Magazine (http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?p=928895#post928895)


Thank-you

From what I have seen and dealt with, GM techs are left in the dust when it comes to details of calibrations, ECM programming, and what not. GM does not tell them jack squat about what parameters new calibrations change or on how to check out the "trails" left behind from flashes, etc... They do not check into jack squat because of this. If GM were to tell them where and how to look at things, we all might be in trouble. I have heard of engineers doing checks on vehicles that have become "problematic". Once in a great while GM will send an expert out to check on a vehicle having warranty work done. I have yet to hear anyone claim that the "expert" or engineer found out they were doing ECM programming and the warranty is void because of it. 99% "voided" warranties come straight from the service manager at a dealership. Since the service manager and the techs have no access to the ECM info, I hardly doubt it has caused or will cause any troubles. Until I see some cold hard facts that GM is showing dealers how to check this info, it is null and void in my opinion. Of course it could happen. Things change, but we all might die tomorrow too. Ending on a positive note, I might win the lottery and buy GM! Then you all are in trouble! I'll start checking!

I can only add this.

Under normal circumstances your are you best Allie of your service department.When you go in for basic warranty items most dealers wont even care.There are some picky dealers and we have seen people here report about them.I can remember the 'red' flag word when people went in for just having guages and a big exhaust.

But for sure if you go in with serious warranty repair allbeit if it catastrophic in nature or not and for one instance if the dealer fears that their warranty repairs will go unpaid by GM they might just call someone in that can check out the truck for tampering.They need to cover their behinds

I hope you guys don't think we have them fooled do you?

Best to behave yourself in the service department and out of sight is out of mind and offer no information.

I am not condoning ripping your service department off either.

Good day fellows!

It was directed at McRat as you case see a few posts up.

Sorry Steve

That's the whole point, dealers do not have special TechII software, GM makes the whole system point and click without thinking about anything so a tech cannot program the wrong info in, perhaps you have some special TechII software, but you know and I know the 'level' of knowlege most warranty guys at dealerships have and it does not extend to the bits and bytes level going on inside an ECM.

Not sure if the 'stain' comment was directed at me?, if it was, it shouldn't be.

Cheers,
Ross

Unless the strategy has changed, the TTS tuning will leave a "stain" on your PCM that needs a 100% reflash to remove.


The fact is they can tell, period. The area service reps have the necessary tools to do the job if they are told too. Most of the time they can be at a dealership in 24 hours notice. GM is looking at there skyrocketing cost and warranty is one of them. If GM feels the dealership did a job wrong they charge them back so its out of the dealers pocket, you do not think they will look the other way for long now that it cost them do you? My point is simple EFI Live will leave the same "stain" as TTS or anyone else so why bring it up as "theirs does it but ours does not" if not for a hidden agenda.

So, worst case... even if TTS tunes can't be put back to stock all I need is a spare ecm? That doesn't seem that bad. I think for any of us that have put in an drilled their manifold to tap a pyro, run hoses/wires etc through firewall won't have a problem swapping an ecm.
I guess if the product comes out and it turns out to kick a$$ then I'll have to add the cost of an ecm to my purchase.
I personally don't want to write my own tunes with efi live at this point, otherwise I'd head that way.

Looking forward to the details on the TTS! :ro)

-Chris

I have been hesitant to post on this thread, but here goes.

I am new to the diesel world and have been very slow in deciding which tuner to purchase for my vehicle. I had it narrowed down to the predator, due to it's reasonable cost and other features. Most importantly, the ability to remove the program when necessary to go to the dealer for warranty work.

TTS has a great reputation as far as I can tell and most on this forum agree that their extreme program for the original dmax was awesome.

I have not yet purchased the Predator because I want to see what the TTS programmer has to offer; however, I can tell you without a doubt that I will not purchase it if I cannot remove the program when I need to go to the dealer.

I respect the reputation that TTS has and would really consider their new PL-III, but I have to agree with you...... if the ECM can't be returned to stock condition, I'll have to pass...

Well , if it is a tts thred about the Diesel Power mag, so be it !!! judging by the article , Id say it was a advertising ploy at the masses,(pushed by the manufacture, and probably his truck)) another smoke and mirrors article to give you nothing but false hope. Based on that article ,I would not want to run tts Power Loader 3 , it states "power loader 3 will allow Joe average to upload performance calibrations into his diesel engine, thanks to modern technology" (pg 84) Now modern technology we have will allow us to remove the tunes from our ECM and reload them at will . That is the most modern we have. So far his have not been re loadable , IS THAT MODERN ? . We now have several options that do this and scan data as well , the Predator tuner will scan data as well as any tuner out. Efi not only scans data but will log it too!!! (pretty modern if you ask me) , also we can switch on the fly and change tunes at will all things that are required to be modern. As for this consumer and the Joe Averages of the world I prefer a Modern tuner that will let me remove it from my truck at will. Is it tts right to market a product the way they want YES THIS IS THE USA, Will it sell to The Joe average's ? NO....

X2:exactly:

The fact is they can tell, period. The area service reps have the necessary tools to do the job if they are told too. Most of the time they can be at a dealership in 24 hours notice. GM is looking at there skyrocketing cost and warranty is one of them. If GM feels the dealership did a job wrong they charge them back so its out of the dealers pocket, you do not think they will look the other way for long now that it cost them do you? My point is simple EFI Live will leave the same "stain" as TTS or anyone else so why bring it up as "theirs does it but ours does not" if not for a hidden agenda.

OPPSS!! My "agenda" needs to speak:

Guess they could hire off-duty CIA agents and set up surveillance on us.:rolleyes:

Fact is GM (and every other car company) has denied warranty for just about any reason, they don't need to reverse engineer your PCM. Bone stock cars have been denied warranty because "Owner operates vehicle outside it's design parameters". I'll show you the work sheet if I can find it. I've heard tires, exhaust, snow plows, trailers, etc, etc, used as a reason. They can be quite creative.

Reality is, if a dealer wants to screw with you they will. They don't need digital proof. Now having a race tune in your PCM when you show up at a dealer MIGHT set off alarm bells, and is probably asking for trouble. Hence the reason many owners want to return to stock tuning if possible.

Swapping PCM's is a good strategy. It's just not for everyone.

the point of a tuner in the first place in to modify the truck to run faster, better, pull more, etc. if you are not willing to modify your truck then don't get this get something cheaper and safer and be happy about it and not wish you would have bought the tts later because it outperforms what you got instead.

also remember how long the PL-II has been out for the LB7 and remember that single programs and "stacks" are just now getting to the level of the TTS Extream.

don't get me wrong i am all for efilive and all that (i have the predator) but i am not looking for the most power out of this truck. i just wanted some more juice for cheap because i don't know when i will get rid of this truck and i don't feel that it is worth fixing up too extreamly much. i have no need of a 500 hp truck right now (and really don't want to fix the transmision to hold it). i will wate untill i can afford a new truck and do it right and i hope TTS will have a programer for that truck because by the time i can aforde a new truck it will be a LB30-06 motor and the PL-III will be old news and efilive will not work because they don't wnat to write a new program because the new ecms are in a new laguage

i may be pusshing it alittle here but how many people that have gotten the TTS for them selves and not been satisfied (especially compared to another program)

I personally like having my stock ECM vin matched untouched whether it be any tuner that down loads a program that can or cannot be returned to stock by the program.

I think the whole point made is that it can be 'seen' that there was tamper.Things will tighten further in the future as GM tightens the belt.
What does it matter for someone like me now after they see the gauges the wires the switches the pumps the purple transmission the SD manifold and wastegate mod?

Nuttin :D

Heed the warning ,It's the same no matter what Program you chose,that's the point.

After TWO defective knocking GM gas motors, believe me, I understand that GM doesn't alway do the right thing. (I did finally get some satisfaction on the vortec through GM's GMPP ex warranty) This was done on a GMC at the local friendly Chevy dealer) I am willing to pay for what I break, upgrade it, or modify my driving style. This is really more of a morals issue with me. If the failure is because of a defective part they should pay. If it's due to my mods, then I should pay, if it's in the grey area, I'll pay. I've been burned twice, don't want to invite it again.

Steve, I have a couple of questions on swapping ecms. I have heard great things about your programs. I am curious, if I were to obtain a 2nd pcm and have it programmed to my vin, could it be cleaned in such a way as to appear if it came from the factory unmolested? Second, my original ecm has been programmed several times, and although I've never had ANY programming issues with it, I have heard a few horror stories on here about locked or damaged ecms while programming. I like the idea of a back up ecm plus an ecm with switchable programs for day to day use. Are your customers going to continue to have this option irrespective of what the new PLIII does or doesn't do? (I happen to like the idea of 2 ecms)

You can go to a dealer and get a replacement ECM and have it setup for your truck and it will appear as it came from the factory, or get a used ECM from a wrecked truck and have the unit updated for your truck. We also can supply a good used ECM to our customers. You can damage an ECM when programming as has been showen by many who have done it. Mackin hit the nail on the head

"Heed the warning ,It's the same no matter what Program you chose,that's the point."

why don't people just purchase an extra ecm and do all the programming on it and then when they take there truck in they can put back the factory ecm and no one will be able to tell it was ever programmed because all the evidence will be on the extra one that was bought.

i think that this is very simple solution. what is more stock that the stock ecm untouched and unused. no way to void warentee this way (except for that hole you drilled for the pyro)

That's what I'll be doing on my next truck. Hmmm, I take a slate grey cc 4x4 with the extra ecm option please.):h ):h

Just wanted to throw in my 2cents. I have been a GMC tech for over 20 years. I think the extra ecm is a good idea, But I also want you all to know That GM does not give us much info about calibrations. As long as your pcm has a valid calibration ID. I would not know what had been done to it in the past. Most techs in my shop like modified cars and trucks and unless they are beat to death we look the other way and perform warranty work. I also look forward to the release of the pl3.

Sniper7mm

What dealership you work at as were always looking for guys like you to send customers too. I'm sure others in your area would also like to know.

I am on the east coast in Maryland. My dealer sells Pontiac, Buick & GMC. Just to set the record straight we can not look the other way for everything. For example if you smoke your stock trans you need to see ATS or Suncoast. On the other hand if your in for trim, axle seal leaks, steering shaft clunks, radio problems ect. You do not have to remove guages and modules. Just bring it in as is. You can PM me for contact info.

In case the man is watching might want to take back you location ect;) Wouldnt want a fellow diesel enthusiast to get in trouble:)

Ratlover,
Thanks for the info. I took your advice

sniper7mm

Sorry, I never thought about it the way Ratlover did. Its good to you out there willing to work with customers.

The way I look at it if the mods did not cause the failure it should be warranty.

Leave it to me to think like an asswhole :D

The way I look at it if the mods did not cause the failure it should be warranty.

Yup, and thats the way most of us think things should be handled. Some are just worried that someone might use it as an out. Thats why outa sight outa mind is preached.

If I blew up my turbo running around on the Xtreme and with N2O and beating the heck outa it I woulda ponied up since it was at least a good chunk my fault. But if GM denied warantee for running a juice box on injectors(that are known to take a dump for no reason) I woulda been pissed.

Off topic!

C.A.P.

How about Mark Levinson - Wadia - Apogee to experience music?

:) :) :)

I am with him on the Krell.

D@mn, I just read 13 pages of "kick in the teeth". I didn't realize the TTS wouldn't let me go back to stock, and there is NO WAY I'm going to buy another ECM when there are programmers out there - that do essentially the same thing - which don't require me to buy another computer. This is the kind of stuff that just p!sses me off...thinking I know what I want to drop some cash on, then getting crushed. So I'm back where I started. I hope I find a programmer for this truck before I sell it.

I am with him on the Krell.

Off topic!

C.A.P. YEP ):h No shortage of power there!!!

How about Mark Levinson - Wadia - Apogee to experience music?

:) :) :)

All great gear , what models do ya have !!!!!!! Love your selection:ro)

I have a KSA 50 with Amrita speakers and a velodyne sub. Hopefully I can upgrade in the near future.

ksa 50 is a great warm amp one of Krells best!!!!!!

Is this the article?

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/featuredvehicles/148_0402_diesel/

Cole explained that he called this program Extreme, and that he was ambivalent about letting it loose on the public. "It puts 890 lb-ft and >> 520 hp at the wheels. It's nuts, I know, but some people won't be satisfied with the regular programs if they know this one exists. They'll have to have it."

Some good numbers.

hp vrs torque looks a lil strange :think:

What I don't understand is why it locks the ECM? Can't they protect the tune by locking the ECM only after loading a perf. tune? When you go back to stock tune, it should unlock the ECM.

The thing that might have been missed by the TTS guys is the REASON they had so many requests for a stock tune. It might have been that the customers were interested in the ability to return to stock and not have the ECM locked down and not have the programmer VIN locked. That is probably what all those customers who wanted the stock tune were REALLY asking for.

What I don't understand is why it locks the ECM? Can't they protect the tune by locking the ECM only after loading a perf. tune? When you go back to stock tune, it should unlock the ECM.

The thing that might have been missed by the TTS guys is the REASON they had so many requests for a stock tune. It might have been that the customers were interested in the ability to return to stock and not have the ECM locked down and not have the programmer VIN locked. That is probably what all those customers who wanted the stock tune were REALLY asking for.
:agreed:

What I don't understand is why it locks the ECM? Can't they protect the tune by locking the ECM only after loading a perf. tune? When you go back to stock tune, it should unlock the ECM.

The thing that might have been missed by the TTS guys is the REASON they had so many requests for a stock tune. It might have been that the customers were interested in the ability to return to stock and not have the ECM locked down and not have the programmer VIN locked. That is probably what all those customers who wanted the stock tune were REALLY asking for.

I think Steve has adressed this before. Regardless of what folks want, ask for, etc., Steve will do what Steve wants to do. Can he make it so it is removeable like other programmers?, yep. Can he make it not vin lock?, yep. Can he give his PL capabilities like predator for tire size, read balance rates, etc.?, yep. Can he make it so you don't have to buy another ecm if you want to keep your stock one?, yep. Can it be priced like others, have the bells and whistles of others, but just have the best single tune going?, yep.
Will he do any of the above?, nope. Just my guess, but I don't think he will ever change his position. You want an extreme? That'll be $1295 plus the cost of a spare ECM, and you won't be able to sell it once it's locked to your truck thank you very much, take it or leave it.
He will still sell them, until someone eclipses the extreme tune on the dyno and track, at which point he will have to change, or accept declining/no sales.
I'm not saying its bad or good, it's just the way it is. And that being said, I still think it is worth it currently if you want what I think is the best. The only question is for how long.
My .02

520 Hp and only 890 ft/lbs, whats up with that?

I was just pointing out that earlier in this thread TTS expressed that they get lots of requests for a stock setting and could not understand why and it could be that they were really asking for a "return to stock" feature that leaves the truck's state and tuner's state back to where they started.

I think Steve has adressed this before. Regardless of what folks want, ask for, etc., Steve will do what Steve wants to do. Can he make it so it is removeable like other programmers?, yep. Can he make it not vin lock?, yep. Can he give his PL capabilities like predator for tire size, read balance rates, etc.?, yep. Can he make it so you don't have to buy another ecm if you want to keep your stock one?, yep. Can it be priced like others, have the bells and whistles of others, but just have the best single tune going?, yep.
Will he do any of the above?, nope. Just my guess, but I don't think he will ever change his position. You want an extreme? That'll be $1295 plus the cost of a spare ECM, and you won't be able to sell it once it's locked to your truck thank you very much, take it or leave it.
He will still sell them, until someone eclipses the extreme tune on the dyno and track, at which point he will have to change, or accept declining/no sales.
I'm not saying its bad or good, it's just the way it is. And that being said, I still think it is worth it currently if you want what I think is the best. The only question is for how long.
My .02

Good points. I'll certainly be looking at the PL-3 and the new tunes for the LLY. I'll have to learn about the consequences of purchasing TTS tunes before hand, but it will be interesting learning all about it.

All great gear , what models do ya have !!!!!!! Love your selection:ro)
THANKS!

I have the Apogee Duettas with ML 27 for tweeter modules and ML 20.6 for the Midrange / Bass modules. These are connected via tube based crossover (6N1P tubes) to modified Wadia 850 CD Player.

I love your gear also!!! :ro):ro):ro)

still waiting patiently for the details of this tune when its released in 2 or 3 weeks?