Bumped into my former boss tonight...she works for Bosch...and she is very familiar with the common-rail system in our trucks...we both worked at the Grand Rapids, MI plant that lost out (and is now closed) when the high-pressure common rail business was assigned to Bosch's Charleston, SC plant.


I mentioned being a Dmax owner and she immediately asked me "are you over 75,000 miles yet.....and if so are you still running the original injectors?". Seems Bosch is seeing a rash of failures in the 75-80K range. I got the impression from her that Bosch was very embarrassed about all the injector issues. She said they did most of their durability testing with clean fuel, and didn't realize the variability of fuel in the US. Also said the revised design was helping, thought this has been in production for a year or more, so even my 03 truck might have benefitted....although she didn't know the specifics of what was changed.


Bosch builds injectors for OTR trucks that rarely have an injector failure so for them 75-80K miles is viewed as early failure. Too bad GM doesn't seem to take it nearly as seriously!

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i have just over 41k on my baby, and i just had ALL of my injectors replaced...


i bought it in mid-feb, and it's REALLY a nice truck, as u can see from my sig...


the top tech where i had it serviced (twice) pulled a warranty history on it...it's SIX pages long and includes the replacement of 2 injectors previously...both he and the mech that actually did the work told me that they've not had any replacement injectors come back, so maybe ur friend is right about the replacement injectors being a cure...


the top tech and 2 mechs told me individually when i asked them about the injector problem that it was the change in the diesel fuel formula (lower sulphur), and diesel fuel variation that has caused the injector failure problem...all of them advised me to use "howes" fuel additive...when i asked about stanadyne, or other additives, i was told stanadyne, ect., is better for '03-'04s...they said howes is better for '01-'02s..they sell a LOT of diff additives, so what u buy is nothing to them, and howes is cheaper than stanadyne...


ANYWAY, i CERTAINLY hope that the LLY is all it's advertised to be...if toyota is ever allowed to sell a diesel hd here, the big 3 can stop making diesels http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif








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Pony Driver- I wouldn't buy a Toyota if they were the only diesel manufacturer. I would just go back to gas. I would even go as far as saying I would drive a D**ge before a Toyota. At least they have American roots.

Pony Driver- I wouldn't buy a Toyota if they were the only diesel manufacturer. I would just go back to gas. I would even go as far as saying I would drive a D**ge before a Toyota. At least they have American roots.





I agree, I think I'd even buy a ford before a toyota.

I would Never buy jap Bike or truck American made Here http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


Leatherman

Fred G's comments are interesting in light of Dmaxallitech's comments over on the diesel page concerning a conversation he had with some engineers at GM on injector issues. Eric's keeping kinda quiet about it, but says there is more to come.


Quote from Eric.."I think GM has got ahold of the problem from the info I have recieved in the last couple days. I know from talking to differnt engineers with Dmax and GM that they have about had it with Bosch."


http://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=007554

I would Never buy jap Bike or truck American made Here http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


Leatherman


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif


I assume we have another Harley rider!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gifEdited by: flhrciblueice

We are not alone with premature injector failure issues. Large class 8 and off-highway equipment are plagued with exactly the same issues. One of our owner operators recently took his Peterbilt in as it was a little rough running; from his previous engine, a Big Cam IV, he assumed a $250 to $350 "run the rack" tune up cost. The engine had 106,000 miles on it was out of warranty. Tune up bill was $3500. 4 new injectors.. Then to top it off he was back 3 weeks later for the last two injectors..
One very upset owner operator.
Ten years ago, in order of alerts, dirt injestion was #1, with 95% of oil analysis alerts, followed by glycol/anti-freeze, bearings and a distant last, fuel dilution.
Now, with electronic high pressure injector systems used on all current diesel engines, oil analysis results show dirt alerts still #1 but now fuel dilution is #2 and glycol a distant third..
Thus, GM is NOT alone with the injector life problems. As has been discussed in detail the inherent problem is extremely dirty fuel and inadequate fuel filtration.. CAT is the only engine manurfacturer who has indeed done the research and stepped up to the plate with a truly efficient fuel filter and as a result, their injectors/fuel systems are among the longest lasting.
This is not rocket science or defective injector design; if one runs a 19/17/15 ISO through a 1,000 psi garbage truck hydraulic system, pump, hose and valve life is going to be serverely compromised...
Do the same with a 20,000+ PSI hydraulic system as in our fuel injection system and frankly it is a wonder the injectors, servo valves, pumps live as long as they do!
George Morrison, STLE CLS

The low sulphur thing is a play on the 1994 shift in sulphur content. I'd run the Stanadyne before Howes any day.





FPPPF Total Power or Primrose Are my recommendations...

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...if toyota is ever allowed to sell a diesel hd here, the big 3 can stop making diesels http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif</TD></TR>
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Amen to that Pony!! Based on some of the other replies you've gotten, all I can say is there must be some very happy folks here. Remember, ignorance is bliss!! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

I don't get it. What is stopping Toyota from doing just that? If the market was there, I am sure they would build one.

Still it's up to GM to define the test that determines Bosch's design is reliable. Sounds like GM didn't do their homework and will pay with warranty costs. Of course us customers fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to make it through the 100k warranty will also pay.


Aside from the GM/Bosch finger pointing, how can GM let this fester through 4 production cycles? The general had to be asleep at the wheel.

Unfortunately history shows that the japanese will build and it will be more reliable than anything we've seen to date.

I don't get it. What is stopping Toyota from doing just that? If the market was there, I am sure they would build one.


It never hurts being late the the auto production party. You can always gain market share while learning from the competition's mistakes.

But Toy isn't late. They have been making diesels available to the rest of the world for many many years. However, they make pretty much bare bones work trucks (the exception is the Land Cruiser) that can't compete on the plush, high performance American market.

Sounds like you good `ol boys are are running scared here...
Afraid of a little competition are we ?? Even to the extent of buying a FORD or DODGE, Good God You guys, did you all forget who makes the Duramax ?? What If Toyota had built it instead of Izuzu.

Surprise,,,, %$*&%*& I'm having all eight injectors replaced in my 2003 GMC duramax, 14300 miles. Hope the new ones last longer. Nick fixed me up with a new nicktane fuel filter kit that I'll be installing next weekend.

has anyone heard about GM guaranteeing the replacements for life????? That would be hard to believe. I'll be asking the GM service manager.

My next question is... has anyone installed a secondary oilguard oil filter. I recently purchased on but for the heck of me, I can't figure out a good mounting location on my 2003 GMC duramax.

Would like to know where a good mounting location is.

My next question is... has anyone installed a secondary oilguard oil filter...

tmcmichael,
There are quite a few Dmax owners using OilGuards. I installed an OilGuard on my 03 (http://community.webshots.com/album/65003591xTSYrR) last februrary and have been very pleased with it. There is also an OilGuard Install Topic (http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3438&PN=1) in the "Do it yourself and usefull articles" forum that shows GMCSLEHD's excellent install.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

I don't get it. What is stopping Toyota from doing just that? If the market was there, I am sure they would build one.




I'm sure Toyota is doing the necessary research, development, and testing BEFORE they put the product on the market - unlike some other manufacturers!

Bumped into my former boss tonight...she works for Bosch...and she is very familiar with the common-rail system in our trucks...we both worked at the Grand Rapids, MI plant that lost out (and is now closed) when the high-pressure common rail business was assigned to Bosch's Charleston, SC plant.


I mentioned being a Dmax owner and she immediately asked me "are you over 75,000 miles yet.....and if so are you still running the original injectors?". Seems Bosch is seeing a rash of failures in the 75-80K range. I got the impression from her that Bosch was very embarrassed about all the injector issues. She said they did most of their durability testing with clean fuel, and didn't realize the variability of fuel in the US. Also said the revised design was helping, thought this has been in production for a year or more, so even my 03 truck might have benefitted....although she didn't know the specifics of what was changed.


Bosch builds injectors for OTR trucks that rarely have an injector failure so for them 75-80K miles is viewed as early failure. Too bad GM doesn't seem to take it nearly as seriously!





Hello Fred G,


Your post was very interesting to me. The statement about your boss using clean fuel for testing was of great interest to me.


How did Bosch clean there fuel?


Was it free of air?


Did they use an additive?


Fred your post links dirt as being the number one cause of PIF and the only cause. I still do not then understand how somebody like Campfire Rick can have a failure at such low milage and with secondary filtering already installed. Fred I am curious , what did your old bass due at Bosch? Why did they move the plant? It is really interesting having a Bosch employee on board.


Edited by: Bronco

I have heard similer things that Fred G heard and the info is quite suprising, at least to me it was. Dont forget that just becuase you have secondary filtration, doesnt mean your injectors will last forever. All you are doing is cleaning fuel, you cant fix a manufacturing problem or defect with a filter..or additive

The presentation from Bosch to the State of California (CARB) stated that their fuel samples taken in the summer of 2002 had cleanliness that was on par with european fuel; The lack of consistency in lubricity was the main concern

I checked with a company in texas about performing lubricity testing with an HFRR rig - not cheap at $250.00 per test.

- jeff

has anyone heard about GM guaranteeing the replacements for life????? That would be hard to believe. I'll be asking the GM service manager.


The lifetime warranty would apply if YOU pay for this replacement. Parts replaced while in warranty are only warranted for the remainder of the original warranty. Your replacement injectors (paid for by GM)will be warranted 100% until your truck is 3 years old or reaches 36,000 miles. Then they will be subject to a $100 deductible until 5 years or 100,000 miles.


It's nothing new. The local Chevy dealer did a soup to nuts overhaul of the A/C (front and rear) in a '91 15 passenger van belonging to our church, including conversion to R-134A The tab was about $2300. In the 4 years since the work was done all A/C service has been free of charge. Vans that sit still all winter and then fire up for a trip to Mexico in June or July tend to need A/C work every summer. . . and it isn't worth having if the A/C doesn't work!Edited by: Colorado Kid

Bronco - I'll try to answer your questions as best I can!


First of all I no longer work at Bosch - I worked for them 1998-2000. My plant built diesel injectors for many of the European truck builders (Volvo, Iveco, others) as well as older-tech injector designs for Detroit Diesel. My role was IT systems, including shop-floor control and quality systems, so I got to spend quite a bit of time on the production lines as well as interact with senior management at the plant.


From my time on the floor I learned that building injectors to the tolerances needed for high-pressure use was very challenging. Bosch was very focused on quality, but we struggled in this area. I was generally left with the impression that we were trying to build injectors that made sense on the design board but that came up a bit short in real-world conditions. The heat-treat and multiple machining processes had to be very tightly controlled in order to produce injectors and tips that would hold up well. These injectors didn't run as high a pressure as common-rail so I cannot even imagine the processes and systems needed to build injectors with such precision.


My former boss's statement was "we did the durability testing using european fuel. We had no idea there was so much variation in US diesel. We did not anticipate dirty fuel". I took this to mean contamination but I suppose she could be referring to a lack of lubricity, too.


I do recall they were still working the bugs out of the common-rail injectors and system at the time I left..April 2000...and there were certainly concerns about longevity - durability testing doesn't lie! But I wasn't privvy to the details...just seemed like a continual source of concern for senior management to have common-rail ready to go. By that time the line was already coming up in Charleston, although I don't think they were producing at the start of DMax production. Bosch must have also been making our injectors in Germany or elsewhere.


Air/additive/fuel questions...we had engine test cells at the plant I worked at. Each test cell had controlled conditions, i.e. filtered air, fuel, etc. I don't recall any specific discussion on additives, but I'm sure this would be one of many test conditions that they could setup for. I'm sure that the fuel used for the DMax injector durability testing was consistently clean and likely w/o additives, the goal being to simulate real-world conditions (well at least real-world European conditions?). Durability testing results would quickly skew if there were any variations, I believe the fuel was tightly controlled.


My former boss...has worked for Bosch her entire career...20 years plus. Very knowlegeable, well connected within the company and always a straight shooter with me. Her entire career has been in manufacturing facilities in the US and France. At my plant she was in charge of purchasing, materials, finance, IT, and a few other areas. She was a peer to the person who managed the production lines. She was usually right in the thick of things when we had a quality issue and she dealt with our customers on a regular basis. So I guess you could say I trust her comments 100%.


As to why we lost the business to Charleston...and this is ONLY my opinion...we were a union shop, and Charleson was not. Our quality was similar and our productivity was, too. I don't know if we cost more or not, but from my seat the only difference was union and non-union....which was very unfortunate for the 2000 or so people who used to work there....and my reason for leaving 3 years ago, as I could see the end coming...very frustrating.


That's about all I know! Sorry for the novel but you had to ask!


Fred G

So Bosch ships in diesel fuel from Europe for durability testing? That makes no sense at all. If that is true, it is no wonder our injectors cost so much!

Fred,


Thanks for the excellent answer. We need a few guys around here with connections.

My '02 is in the shop getting 8 new injectors at 62,000 km. I'd like to think I'm getting the latest improved injectors that will solve the problem, however there have been reports of running changes to the injectors throughout the production run. Have they really fixed the problem?
The cynical view is the latest fix is good enough to get the failure beyond the expiry of the warranty.

Has anyone considered how many different failure modes there are for injectors? The low mileage failures are more likely a QA problem, or tolerance building up problem. My injector failure showed up as a no start/hard start situation. Other failures show up as a crank case full of fuel. The injectors are failing in different ways. Can these be all dirty fuel, or lubricity problems?

Has anyone considered how many different failure modes there are for injectors? The low mileage failures are more likely a QA problem, or tolerance building up problem. My injector failure showed up as a no start/hard start situation. Other failures show up as a crank case full of fuel. The injectors are failing in different ways. Can these be all dirty fuel, or lubricity problems?

The problem in answering that question is the lack of available documentation on the failure types and frequencies as this information is being held very close to the vest. Best "guesstimate" that I can make over what I've seen and read is that there are two major failure types - performance (based upon excessive fuel return or poor output) that is probably based on internal damage related to fuel contaminants and excessive wear. And design (based upon body or head seating leakage) that appears to be faulty joints in the injector body or cracks in the injector body. These all lead to fuel in the oil. There are also some cases of fuel return line leakage and an early issue with the injector cup to head gasket that were fuel-in-oil events, too. Now that the LLY has moved the injectors and injector return lines outside the valve cover, if the design issues haven't been fully addressed they will become "fuel leakage in the engine compartment" versus fuel in oil problems.

Since Bosch is admitting that the fuel doesn't have enough lubricity to provide for a reliable fuel injection system -&gt; I was thinking the early failures were also due to lubricity. Components need better/more lubrication during break-in...

- jeff

Edited by: dmax lover

Now I remember! The comment about cracks in the injector body brought back more memories. Yes, it definitely can happen....I remember some of the quality reviews on "early failure" injectors coming back from Europe (that we made in GR that went to overseas truck makers). The injector seat material would be TOO HARD and the seat would crack and the cylinder(s) would flood with fuel. And sometimes if the heat-treat process went the other way, the soft material was quickly worn away by the high pressure/abrasion...resulting in poor economy, and loss of power/driveability. Creating the right level of hardness w/o fracturing was by far the hardest part in making the high-pressure injectors, and I would tend to agree these likely account for most low-mileage failures. Our European customers were extremely upset with the low-mileage failures. I think Bosch was getting a handle on these (well maybe now) but on the higher-mileage failures it's very difficult to determine the root cause due to not having the case history (hey sorry about your injector failure....can you tell us over the past 75,000 miles where you bought all your fuel?).