I’ve had an occasional harsh 2<SUP>nd</SUP> to 3<SUP>rd</SUP> shift when towing, but last year after a longer pull, about 1600 miles worth, with 100 miles to go, the occasional became almost every time. I’ve been busy with other issues and have note towed until this past weekend. It reminded me this is not going away without something being done.

I’m getting the harsh shifts about 25% of the time. If I feather the throttle at the right time and help it along, it seems to do ok. Some searching here shows both juiced and stock dmax versions have had this issue. I have the hot juice, and do have some slippage, but it’s not at the point I want to spend the $$$ on it.

Since stock trucks have done this, what’s been the fix? I’m thinking this is more of the TCM issue than anything related to slippage. I have a late model 2002.Edited by: jcummins

jcummins


First thing i would do is a scan for codes. I think you are experiencing more slippage than you think and the TCM is compensating for it by kicking pressures up. This will usually happen when the clutches are already damaged. Resetting TAPS will probably stop the harsh shift untill the Ally slips again. I think you are going to have to spend some money on the trans. If you continue the way you are you will have to rebuild it. Sounds like Suncoast time.


mike

jcummins


First thing i would do is a scan for codes. I think you are experiencing more slippage than you think and the TCM is compensating for it by kicking pressures up. This will usually happen when the clutches are already damaged. Resetting TAPS will probably stop the harsh shift untill the Ally slips again. I think you are going to have to spend some money on the trans. If you continue the way you are you will have to rebuild it. Sounds like Suncoast time.


mike





Spoken like a true transmission shop owner .... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif





Jcummins





How many miles on your truck ?? How is your maint schedule as to fluid change and spin on ?? Only when your towing or all the time ??


If you have access to a tech II sure check for codes, as Mr. Amoco states ... http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif


But I'm thinking throttle position and shift adapt ... If you drive it like grandpa then expect it to shift clean under load it maybe a bit abrupt occasionally .... Exspecially after driving JUICED ....Compound in towing also ...


If your near stock towing I doubt you have smoked some clutches already without a mechanical failure internally that would have rear'd by now....The Allison will take some abuse ,believe me ....How do you know your slipping ?? The Additude shows TC slippage ....


As the Mr. Allison,Mr Webb (Suncoast)has told me ~ "Allen what's the first thing that happens when you visit a Doctors office ?? "


"They check your blood pressure that's your starting point..."





Have Mr Goodwrench check it out let us know ...


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gifEdited by: Mackin

Mack


I have no idea what you just said except you just sent him to the dealer.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif Did you read the part about the Juice? Do you think he put this on his dash to look at? As far as taking blood pressure(i assume you are talking about pressure readings). Who the heck is going to read and decipher them? The dealer? A really good transmission tech can do this on an Allison with the proper manual and scanner. Let's get to real world diagnosis; we are after all doing this blind. I suggest a scan for codes, i need to know what Mr. jcummins has done with this truck(flogging, if any) and how long this has persisted. I say he has burned clutches because of the symptoms.

Mike





Not all of us have a Tech II or other reading device ....


Not all transmission shops are very good at diagnosing the Allison ...


So whats I guy to do drive to California ?? No visit the dealer ... If he is in warranty then it would be his moral responsibility to say I want to go a different route on a repair ... If he is out of warranty pay the diagnostic charges and move on ...


I have been JUICED longer then most and I also seen my inards of my transmission prior to my Suncoast upgrade and I will garranty you I was ruff I mean ruff... The Edge Juice is a very respectfull tuner to the Allison transmission ... How much experience do you have with that product Mike ??


I'd like more info before I say it is a FAILED Allison transmission ...


Maint,miles,does he bounce back and forth between power levels ,yada yada ....





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gifEdited by: Mackin

Ok guys:

I’m not hard on my truck, but I don’t drive like Grandpa either, although I’m certainly old enough. I don’t flog the truck. Never been to dragstrip. I will bury my right foot on stoplight stuff.

History. Regular juice 20M, switch to hot juice at 30M. Now have 50M miles. Always ran level 4 both versions when not towing, level 2 towing with 90, and level 1 towing with 125. Slippage, how do I know, I feel it, but never have when towing. It’s when I’m on it hard, level 4. It’s not an every time thing. When I got the hot juice, first 2-3 weeks, truck performed great, somewhere in that time Edge back performance off, now I feel I have a 110 chip not a 125. Feel fairly sure I got to enthused with the new chip in the first days. I’ve changed filter/fluid once, and intend to do again, probably this weekend.

Yep…I have no code scanner. Can’t justify the cost. I noted you mentioned bouncing back in forth between power levels. I don’t do that, except when towing. And this is only occurring on the reduced power level. ??

Well there you have it ,,,,


In My Opinion it is all shift quirkyniss ... The Allison needs to adapt to the additional torque you put to it along with your driving habits ....


Unless the Allison sees the shift under power a few times it really doesen't have time to get coverage ... Driving it for 20 mins means nothing unless for 20 mins it is being continually shifting up and down at that paticular power increase ...Driving it down the highway in Overdrive means nothing for shift coverage ...


People that complain or have these issues are not alowing the tranny to learn ...


Pick a couple levels of power for Tow Haul and regular that are close ,not level 4 in Tow Haul and 1 in regular ... Drive it for a few days at different throttle start launches and let it run through the shifts ... Don't change the power level ...


Before a upcoming trip for towing back the power down for a few days prior to the trip,repeat above ... Therefore the Allison will relearn empty not dragging dead weight ...


Don't bother reading codes you have none ....


Good luck





Mac

I think I gotta go with Mike L on this one. TCM will pick up slip long before you know its happening and all slip does not limp. TCM will try to compensate for it. Which takes us back to the adapts, assuming there is no codes.

I think I gotta go with Mike L on this one. TCM will pick up slip long before you know its happening and all slip does not limp. TCM will try to compensate for it. Which takes us back to the adapts, assuming there is no codes.





Then I better take my Suncoast out and send'er south .... *rolling eyes*


When I take my QUAD off and go for a ride ...................................Or vise versa,load it in the ECM ..........................


How many Juiced trucks that are driven moderatly as described by the owner have you dissassembled that had fried clutches ??


Had to ask ....


You guys are gonna be real busy if that were the case as you describe ...


Someday Eric I hope to take you for a ride in my truck ...


Must be a slow day in the garage ....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif








Mac [/b]Edited by: Mackin

Mackin - most of time I'm moderate....but it's certain that I don't get out of this truck what I had the first two weeks I had the 125 installed. And I do wish I had it back. I 'think' I'm living with this transmission ok on a day to day basis, but when I tow.....this one aspect has me bother. I also did searches on this before I posted. and know I read that a STOCK dmax has had this problem. ??

wanna see my C2's from a 'juiced' truck?

jcummins


How long have you had your Edge box and miles ??





Mac

20M put on 90, 30M put on 125, have 50M now.

wanna see my C2's from a 'juiced' truck?


Wait I don't wanna play you show me yours all show you mine with you ... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif





Mac

20M put on 90, 30M put on 125, have 50M now.





Heres what I can offer ya ....


Stick to ONE power level as much as possible ... Have you ever Limped your tranny ?? Have you ever zinged your tranny in neutral ??


Just trying to gauge your harsness,not overall Allison condition ...


I'm not advising anyone to do what I've done or where I've been ... No way no how .... Perhaps I was lucky, perhaps a lot of things ....


I had a Juice Box way before many and was stacking even when told don't do it ... I was well prepared for any result of my doings to correct the problem even if I had left myself bleeding on the side of the road ,,,, Matter of fact I did get STUCK on the side of the road but not bleeding, with a tranny failure, NOT A STOCK TRANNY either ...


When my stock tranny was disassembled my C1 and C2 after many many drunken high boost tire smoking launches LOOKED BRAND NEW ...C3 and C4,well that is a different story ....


Geerhead can and will attest to this, as we were both scratching our head with,WTF...


Now I'm not saying that you may have some damage in your tranny but surely to the Transmission mechanics advise we need to GET INSIDE and peek around instead of trying a simple fix first ... I'm not doubting the tranny gods or telling you to ignore their advice ...


Heres another situation for you talk to GMC2002 ... We have run his truck thru the gauntlet ... What has been on my truck has been on his truck minus drugs ... FULL throttle launches with bakers of the meats outback ...I warned him, he didn't care .... His truck will not hold much in OD today and he's looking to upgrade ... Go ahead ask him how his tranny shifts stock and with small levels of power,purfect ...Just as mine did stock ... Does he have absolutely burnt clutches ?? You bet ... Point is if you don't allow time for the tranny to adapt it will be quirky shifts ....


Take the Juice off and drive it for a few weeks ...


I still today when I change power levels with a Suncoast stage V will get some flared shifts and abrupt shifts till it settles down and shifts as smooth as glass ..... So I ask the TRANNY gods should I reserve a lift for R&amp;R my tranny for closer inspection ....MikeL call Joe tell him one is coming back, not ....





If you upgrade your tranny and change power levels your tranny will still need to learn ...


I take you for a ride today, anyone within my area with the Comp Juice and the A/B solenoids snap the shifts of like lightning ....


Saaaaweet !!!!!


I agree to acheive full benifit of your power enhancer upgrade and consider Suncoast Converters when you do ...





Have fun, peace ..............

Mack


I personaly have not had experience using juice in my truck, but a lot of my customers have. I see inside the trans what it has done and it's not as kind as you portray it to be. The adapt strategy in the TCM times shifts( measuring how long it takes apply piston to travel before full clutch lockup occurs. It increases pressure when it feels a shift was to slow(slip) and decreases when shift is too quick.I believe the optimum time is 6 tenths of a second. From what i have seen the shifts in the Allison will get very harsh when the TCM increases pressure as much as it can and there is too much clutch clearence in the clutch pack(too much time for shift to occur) and it cannot make up for it. I have also found that burnt clutches will really bite hard just before they let loose and trans goes into limp. I made my diagnosis on Mr. jcummins transmission taking all the info he gave us into consideration. I am not trying to sell him a transmission overhaul. Just trying to help.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


mike

Well, I couldn't resist......so here is my .02





I was agreeing with Mike through most of this thread, but then I got thinking(always bad) If the harsh shifts are only happening in the lower power levels shouldn't that mean that it is just relearning?


I mean higher power = more slip.....so less power shouldn't be causing slip and harsh shifts if the high setting doesn't? Right?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif


That was my first thought.


I have the attitiude and my unit doesn't slip no matter what level its in but if I drive in level 5 for days and days it does shift funky when I go to level 2....... always has even before attitude, I always attributed it to the ally not knowing how to handle the different level of power all of a sudden.


I agree that some slip might be happening and the TCM is trying to compensate but I don't think it should be a big concern unless you plan on making more power than you do now.


Just my .02

So let me understand this for a hate to give missleading information ....


MikeL your taking Edge Juiced only 90/125 HP level max apart from customers that have not tracked or stacked their trucks with additional power and use with moderation ??


These individuals are coming to you because there trannys are slipping and harsh shifting 2/3 exchange ...Your opening up the case and findering ireversable damage to C2 ...That even if driven stock or at an additional 30 HP they can't get a decent shift out of the Allison ??The damage is THAT bad .... I could see under heavy power but stock after the Edge 125 in moderation has done ireversable damage .. I could see these guys losing overdrive first ....


Well hot diggity I learn something every day ....


Thanks http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif





Jcummings the Harsh shift you reading about stock is the 1/2 exchange ... Mine does it too,still ... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


I'd love an explanation on this ... I've had it explained to me from someone at Allison but ......Nah http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gifEdited by: Mackin

Mack


C2 C3 = overdrive. The program is not the only reason clutches are burning up in C2, C3, C4. I have seen the C3 and C4 clutches misaligned in 90% of the Allisons i have been into. I am seeing C3 burned as much as C2. I have seen a few C3s burned and C2s looked new; why? Could it be the stack? I think i have finally figured out why C3s burn and it's not all the fault of the hp program and not all the fault of the clutch stack. Allison techs can give you good pointers on some of the faults, but they cannot help you with what we are doing with our trucks. I talk to my Allison shop all the time, they are used to low RPM failure at slow speeds pulling heavy loads. We on the other hand drive ours differently sometimes.


mike

Getting lost here ....


Oringinal complaint harsh 2/3 shift ....


Eric a sugest a burnt C2 ....


I just sugest Quirky shifts do to changing power levels with out ample learn time ....


I ask for additional info such as LIMP or ZING into neutral ,more spacific OD holding problems ....


Now I gotta ask where does a burnt C2 apply to a 2/3 shifts whith C1 and C4 applied and in 3 rd C1 C3 applied ??


Mike


See above, which clutches are burnt...??


When has jcummins complained about overdrive, C2 and C3 ?? Now I could see if jcummins was stacking and standing on the go peddle and has repeatedly challanged the holding capacity and was zinging OD over and over making C2 and C3 HOT like the rest of us have ... I don't see this as the case ,at least jcummins hasn't came forward to say ...


Mac


Edited by: Mackin

Maybe the forward band is slipping causing the low roller clutch to not hold and the checkballs are pounded through the spacer plate. I think if we loosen the TV cable some, we should kick it. If that dont work, lets stiffen up the springs on the governer.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


Now I am confused toohttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

Maybe the forward band is slipping causing the low roller clutch to not hold and the checkballs are pounded through the spacer plate. I think if we loosen the TV cable some, we should kick it. If that dont work, lets stiffen up the springs on the governer.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


Now I am confused toohttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif








Me too,and then some .... I'm gonna try your suggestion tho ,I'm at the TV now .... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Mac


Eric used the C2 being burnt in his trans as an example only. Lets

Now that I have my TV fixed.......


No LIMP or ZING to neutral, no SES. My downshift (passing gear) at speed has slipped, or at least I feel is not performing as it should. I have to be on it hard, and I have done that occassionally, but I consider my driving very mild compared to what I read here.


I do suspect 'to make it right' I need to call Suncoast and be done with it, but it has to get worse before I go that route.


Mackin I agree....this adaptive learning makes the transmission quirky but anymore I think they all are. I do not care for it. Makes the truck perform differently at different times, and it keeps me guessing what it's doing.

I guess we got off track a bit here. But, I have to agree. Assuming that there is no damage to clutches, It would be adapts just getting themselves in line. There is no way to override that.

Eric


Adapts do not get off line pulling a load when hot unless there is damage. The TCM sees something that Mack does not. I vote for the TCM. I am done with this post.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


mike