With all of these high power Dmax's comin on the scene and every one seeming to want more i was wondering if any of the experts or guys in the performance industry have been doing R+D on upgraded internals? Ex. Head gaskets, cams, pistons, rods, block gurdles, and so forth. I know that they wont be cheap if they do come out with this stuff, i was just wondering if it was on the burner somewhere?

Talk to Eric (gmdieseltech) He's be doing lots of R&D. I believe there is or will be a cam available shortly.

Nope, I dont know nothing:muahaha: ;)

Eric, do you plan on doing research into any parts fo this nature? And do you feel that there is a need or will be a need for parts like this now or in the future?

And you sig says performance motors and internalls are just a PM away, what kind of internal upgrade are you offering? Or do i need to PM you to find out?

You can call me if you'd like. Phone number in my sig.

Rods are done, head studs done, pistons are in the works along with CNC ported heads, camshafts, springs and retainers. When were done with all this it should make for an interesting year of power enhancements

Who is producing the upgraded rods?

Who is producing the upgraded rods?

Couple companies doing them. I know who I will be using and its not who most people think, no suprise to others though. Like Diesel Tech said, lots of things coming. Some projects further then others, but a sweet year non-the less.

This year its goin to be "Dodge wait, Cummins who?"

I'm waiting for someone to make a Duramax pro-stock truck..called "Wolverine Hunter"

All very good news! Hopefully this stuff will be out in time to get some decent testing and results before spring and the upcoming race season. Thanks to everyone doing the legwork!:hail:

I'm waiting for someone to make a Duramax pro-stock truck..called "Wolverine Hunter"You supply the truck, I'll supply the motor.

I was also curious about a cam. i called comp cams and was told that there is one coming out very soon.

You supply the truck, I'll supply the motor. I'll take you up on that.......

I was also curious about a cam. i called comp cams and was told that there is one coming out very soon.:blahblah: :blahblah: -:t

OK it looks like its safe to say comp Cams isn't the grinder for Eric.
The question remains as to how much a diesel will respond to a cam,
But there again I don't know squat about diesel performance other than when I used to go to tractor pulls and watched those wild IH boys with 3 turbos.
God those things would scream, was told they turned in excess of 5 grand but don't know if it was true.
OOOPS sorry I hijacked this thread, wasn't on purpose tho.
Merle

Not my grinder of choice, no.

The Dodge guys get some pretty good benifits from Cams....

To show you how dated I am, when I was into small blocks 283/327 Isky was the man back then.
Merle

You supply the truck, I'll supply the motor.

Hmm.......get a few sponser's goin and find someone w/ a tow rig and i'll be the driver.hehe


you be the crew chief? now we need the rest of a crew..Juice perhaps...Chief Vise Grip engineer.

lol, Eric oh how i'd love to have a drag truck..

how about a Baja truck? may be kinda nose heavy..always move the engine back a lil more

Hmm.......get a few sponser's goin and find someone w/ a tow rig and i'll be the driver.hehe


you be the crew chief? now we need the rest of a crew..Juice perhaps...Chief Vise Grip engineer.

lol, Eric oh how i'd love to have a drag truck..

how about a Baja truck? may be kinda nose heavy..always move the engine back a lil more

LMAO!

Pro400exc would juice be the chief JuiceGrip(TM) engineer! lol

Pro400exc would juice be the chief JuiceGrip(TM) engineer! lol

He has to pay his 29.95 yet though.):h



It will be interesting to see who else joins in the Camshaft arena.

Comp
Iskenderian:ro)
GMPP (ROTFLMFAO)
Crower:ro)

Manley
Comp
Crane
Gm Goodwrech Service plus, LMAO

Rods are done, head studs done, pistons are in the works along with CNC ported heads, camshafts, springs and retainers. has anyone installed any of them yet

Rods, head studs, heads, springs and retainer are in and running in test motors already. Pistons and camshafts are still in manufacuting, once completed they will be installed and tested.

When will the public get to see the test results and these parts on the shelf?

And anyone looking into block strengthening things? Werent people cracking blocks?

I would love to add to this thread but I don't not know anything about internal Duramax engine upgrades :confused:

When will the public get to see the test results and these parts on the shelf?

And anyone looking into block strengthening things? Werent people cracking blocks?

The Rods are on the shelf and for sale now, results from the rest of the testing shouild be done over the next few months on the rest of the parts under test. The balance we hope to have completed by early summer.

Diesel Tech what has been done to improve the Rods, heads, springs and retainers.

what kind of gains are you making with the different heads.

when do you think the earliest we would see a cam out on the market and could you tell us what some specs on the cam

Who manufactures the rods? Dieseltech do you carry them?

You supply the truck, I'll supply the motor.

Dont you have a sutable truck and motor? ;) :grd:

Current available aftermarket rods are Sub Par IMO. As much as I hate to agree with Diesel Tech, I think his future plans include some high quality rods from a high quality company. Its not my business to say who it is though. I am working with the same firm on some different applications. From the studies I have done and the things I have learned, I am not convinced that the rods are a problem. Dont get me wrong, they can be improved, but the are not(IMO) the huge problem that everybody thinks they are.

The problems are caused from the high cylinder pressures we are pushing into these motors. The only way to fix the problem is to lighten the rotating assemble and/or lower cylinder pressures. To lighten the rotating assemble you are going to give up reliability. What I mean is you need to strengthen the components we use now or lighten all new components. The problem comes along when you say I want to drive it everyday and race it on the weekends. The aftermarket parts for racing are for racing. The fastest way is to go to an Aluminum or Titanium rod, only problem with those solutions is they will not last much more than 40 races. After that its time to pull them out and replace them. Next would be to lighten the piston but since its already an aluminum part the only way to lighten it is to remove material which drops the strength and kills the life of the piston. If your building an all out race truck this would be the way to go.

So now on to what we can do to make it live for 50,000 miles and make so it can hold the pressures. The solution is to strengthen the rod to hold the pressure with the current weight of the piston and ring assemble. To do this we switched to a billet aircraft steel rod that is made to our specifications and then a lengthy heat treat process. The down side is the new rod is just slightly heavier than stock but we know it will hold close to double the current power levels. We are working to see what we can do to make them a little lighter but those parts are being tested and will not see the light of day for production until all testing is completed. That will most likely be mid to late summer if everything goes as planned.

Ported cylinder head assembles with upgraded springs and retainers are in testing and have shown great power gains and we are currently making the final changes for the CNC porting programs, the results are a 20 - 30% increase in flow! We will offer the heads in two versions, a street/strip head using stock valves and a race head that uses all new valves and guides. The later heads will cost more and have about 10% more flow than the street/strip heads.

Pistons are being produced in two versions for testing now one version will be the light weight race piston and the second unit will be the street/strip piston. The street/strip unit will be designed for the 50,000 mile life cycle where as the race piston is of the 40 race and your on your own.

Camshafts are still way behind where we had hoped to be at this time but it all takes time. We will offer two basic units. The first is designed for a stock cylinder head motor for better mid RPM torque. The second design is for a modified stock cylinder head that you must use our new springs and retainers on. I also have a big camshaft that were playing with for a race only type application but I'm not sure if we could sell enough to put it into production.

Head studs were easy and are done. Production quantiles will be here in a few months.

soooo the LBZ will probably be good for running big hairdryer's on? because of the lower CR?

The LBZ has a bigger rod and a lower compression ratio so it will help some. As a matter of fact our new rods are about the same weight as LBZ rods but twice as strong. The lower compression ratio will help lower cylinder pressures but remember this also lowers power, so more boost is used to make up for it and that gets cylinder pressure right back up to close to where they are now Stock for Stock. The LBZ also uses coated pistons to reduce the friction and a larger wrist pin for strength. So let's just assume GM got it right this time and this is what it takes to make the power and have long life. It goes right down the road of stronger parts for more powerful engine output. This is why we are building two sets of most everything one for longer life and the second set for all out power but short life. It will be fun when we get all the light parts done to see how the power comes on and see how long they last for.

I'm sitting here reading Steve's post like a crack ho badly in need of another hit.

Hmmm.....mortgage the house?

:eek:

I'm sitting here reading Steve's post like a crack ho badly in need of another hit.

Hmmm.....mortgage the house?

:eek:



Christ i hear ya......Im really gettin tired of workin to pay off the visa thou-:t

Are the CNC cylinder heads that you're working on for an LB7? LLY? LBZ?

The LBZ has a bigger rod and a lower compression ratio so it will help some. As a matter of fact our new rods are about the same weight as LBZ rods but twice as strong. The lower compression ratio will help lower cylinder pressures but remember this also lowers power, so more boost is used to make up for it and that gets cylinder pressure right back up to close to where they are now Stock for Stock. The LBZ also uses coated pistons to reduce the friction and a larger wrist pin for strength. So let's just assume GM got it right this time and this is what it takes to make the power and have long life. It goes right down the road of stronger parts for more powerful engine output. This is why we are building two sets of most everything one for longer life and the second set for all out power but short life. It will be fun when we get all the light parts done to see how the power comes on and see how long they last for.

Isn't the LB7 and LBZ compression ratio both 16.8:1 ? Only the LLY has a 17.5:1......

We have not done any LBZ heads yet but have done both the LB7, LB7 egr type and LLY heads. Both LB7 and LLY have the same compression ratio. As a matter of fact they use the same crankshaft, rods, pistons and camshaft part numbers. The LBZ has the lower compression and I believe the '06 LLY and LLM also got the lower compression ratio but I cannot prove that for sure.

We have not done any LBZ heads yet but have done both the LB7, LB7 egr type and LLY heads. Both LB7 and LLY have the same compression ratio. As a matter of fact they use the same crankshaft, rods, pistons and camshaft part numbers. The LBZ has the lower compression and I believe the '06 LLY and LLM also got the lower compression ratio but I cannot prove that for sure.


What truck does the LLM go into? Just curious, never heard of it.:ro)

The 06LLY and LBZ have the same pistons, same compression ratio.

I think the LLM is for 210/520 version for Medium duty trucks

Diesel Tech: Are you talking 50K out of the pistons at there maximum hp/tq rating? Or just life in general? Also what kind of compretion ratios will they be avalible in?

I know by dropping cr you will need more boost to reach the same power level and defeat the purpose of lower compresion on decreasing cylinder pressure. But for some weekend racers you can run the lower compresion piston and turn it down a bit for daily use and only when its track time turn it up all the way to help increase longevity. So i was just wondering if we were goin to have that option for the pistons or not.

wait I thought the LB7 and (old) LLY both had 17.5:1 CR...?

wait I thought the LB7 and (old) LLY both had 17.5:1 CR...?

Yes, they do. The 06 LLY and LBZ are 16.8:1 CR

I have a 2004 HD chevy Duramax....pull a 14M lb 5th wheel...I average about 10MPG...talked to a guy who pulls 16Mlbs and he says he averages 17MPG pulling trailer and 21MPG empty....he says to check with diesel guys and get them to download a Bully Dog program....Have you heard of this before???
George

I have a 2004 HD chevy Duramax....pull a 14M lb 5th wheel...I average about 10MPG...talked to a guy who pulls 16Mlbs and he says he averages 17MPG pulling trailer and 21MPG empty....he says to check with diesel guys and get them to download a Bully Dog program....Have you heard of this before???
George

Hi George: Welcome to Diesel Place. :) You jut jumped into the middle of some HD discussions with a post that is somewhat off topic. You can use the search link in the header bar to search for all kinds of info on Bully Dog programmers and others as well. You can also open a new thread to start a discussion on your question if you'd like. Enjoy... --Paul.

It is possible to have a vehicle to drive all week and race on the weekends.

50k does not seem like a reliable engine to me. I am new to all this but from what I have heard, these engines are supposed to run 350k? Its true you will trade off some reliability with higher horsepower, but only get 50k out of a street strip engine?

The only correct way to lighten a piston is to replace it with an aftermarket forging. There is no lightening of a factory OEM piece with out sacrificing durability. I know of aftermarket forgings being produced now for these applications that will give you all the durability of a stock part with out adding the weight.

In reading all of this stuff, I find it funny to think that most people think the rods are weak.. What bends rods? Not air duh...only fluid. Rods dont bend from "too much" power. You need to fix the cause, not the symptoms

From what I have seen after tearing down a lot of cores from GM, you all are missing the boat on true causes of failures.

HPmaker could you shed some light on the true causes of failures?

Yes please enlighten us.

We have a lot of talented guys and gals on this forum, could they have missed something? I doubt it.

hmmm...

Thanks for the info hpmaker and glad to see you here. Your info is invaluable. Glad to have you on the team.

hpmaker what fluids inside the cylinder bend the rods to much fuel other than the mist of fuel no liqueds should be it their right

hpmaker what fluids inside the cylinder bend the rods to much fuel other than the mist of fuel no liqueds should be it their right

What other liquid is there besides fuel? (assuming no drugs)

How many rod failures on stock trucks? How many on modded trucks?

I am talking about the rod actually being the problem, not a result of another issue.

From what I have seen -0-


I've been working with hpmaker since last summer on how we can improve these things and take them to the next level. I bring the dmax experience and knowledge, he brings the engine building knowledge and technology. Since he specializes in high performance Marine, he is very aware of reliability as an issue. Not having a Banks budget slows progress a bit, but knowledge is power.;)

Yes please enlighten us.

We have a lot of talented guys and gals on this forum, could they have missed something? I doubt it. I am sure there are lots of talented folks on this forum, as for your question of could they have missed something? YEP!!!!

Anything that even remotely causes a hydrolock condition will bend a Rod.

IMHO.

HPmaker could you shed some light on the true causes of failures?I would like to share them with you now but at the moment i am working with Merchant Auto on correcting the situation and we have the solution we just need to finalize cost of repairs and we will let you know

Anything that even remotely causes a hydrolock condition will bend a Rod.

IMHO.Exactly, and even unobtanium will bend then.

hpmaker, that's great, like to hear it, glad you are on-board. If you have any info to share please do.

I bring the dmax experience and knowledge, he brings the engine building knowledge and technology. Since he specializes in high performance Marine, he is very aware of reliability as an issue. ;)

Kinda reminds me of a conversation earlier this week, Eric.:cool:

From what I have seen after tearing down a lot of cores from GM, you all are missing the boat on true causes of failures.

We are all missing the boat? Ok.....I'll admit I dont know crap but to say "a group dosnt have the info, I have the info but I wont tell if for X reason" is crap IMO. Understand if you are working on something and dont want to let any secrets out, really I do but IMO if you werent going to tell you shouldnt have opened your mouth in the first place;) Whats the point?

So have you had any high HP motors apart that werent hydrolocked and just running lotsa spray or the like? Did you noticed if any of the rods that changed size?

so wht happened to the original subject so whats up with the rods whyh does the oem rods need improvement have people been bending rods or what

....What bends rods? Not air duh...only fluid. Rods dont bend from "too much" power. You need to fix the cause, not the symptoms


ONLY fluid will bend rods? How about too much timing advance for the fuel? Could that do it?

Doesn't that just cause more fuel to come on sooner, therefore leading you back to the root cause (according to the masterminds), a hydrolock situation?

Hpmaker

Excessive cylinder pressure is what bends rods. How you get the excessive cylinder pressure comes from many areas. The most common being more boost (air) and the fuel to go with it. If you reduce the weight of parts this also reduces excessive stress but since the factory piston is already an Aluminum piece I do not see getting an aftermarket piece too much lighter without giving up reliability. Arias already makes pistons for the diesels but so far they have proven to be less than stellar when it comes to reliability but they are lighter. They have reduced the wrist pin size to save on weight as well but lets look at what GM did for the LBZ Vs the LB7. They increased the wrist pin size and they increased the rod size. Why would they do this, if not to support the additional power? Increasing th wrist pin made it stronger and spreads the load out as does increaseing the rod size. They also reduced the compression ratio but this was for help in the emission area. High heat and high cylinder pressure makes for high Nox so reducing the cylinder pressure via the compression ratio also reduced the Nox emissions.

Diesel Matt

Our 50,000 mile bench mark is for running at high power output all the time. Most aftermarket performance items are not designed for this. The easy way to increase life of the rod is to reduce the weight of the piston and wrist pin as there are big gains to be had there. The downside is part life of the other component's (piston, wrist pin) goes in the toilet. So you need to reach a balance between part life and power output. The reason we have strengthen the rod is we are currently running these engines at triple there rated power and we continue to move those numbers higher. This is the reason we have set two different ways to get there but were letting you the customer know up front what to expect for part life. If you want to go fast, as always there is a cost involved but it not only money, part life is a big part of it. Let's look at most serious race engines. They are designed to last 550 miles in Nascar, 500 miles in Formula 1, one pass drag racing ...................... In each of these venues the motors are torn down inspected and parts tossed out if they show any signs of wear. Then at set intervals the parts are tossed no matter what. An Aluminum rod is tossed from fuel motor after 20 passes and Alcohol motor in 40 passes. In Nascar steel rods are tossed or sold after every race. Pistons are tossed at the same time rods are and sometimes sooner. The reason behind this is simple, they know the part is going to fail so why risk it. Light weight parts do not hold up to the everyday life a production engine part sees. So are we to build and all out race engine with the parts been tossed after every few races which will yield the best power to weight ratio or build parts to last "x" time? We are working for a 50,000 mile life cycle at high power output. If we build a high output race motor only I would do it different.

While we are a bit off topic, isn't the initial onset of problems with cracked blocks, torquing of or twisting of the block which throughs everthing out of align and/or off balance and/or out of "rhythm"? Thus the need for a girdle at least on the bottom.


Once the twisting of the block issue is cured and not causing other parts like pistons, cranks and rods to be stressed in unnatural ways, what becomes the weak link? OR what is the next area to focus on beefing up due to being too weak in its stock naturally functioning (as in eveything is aligned and balanced and rotating the way it is supposed to) state?


Just curious ;)

oops, you got in there between my posts. Good post btw, makes since. You are providing cake and allowing it to be eatin as well. Not a bad deal.

So have you had any high HP motors apart that werent hydrolocked and just running lotsa spray or the like? Did you noticed if any of the rods that changed size?So far all the engines that i have seen, including the seven that are apart in my shop are nothing more than oem pieces hopped up on drugs. the only change in rod size is shorter due to bend not at the fault of the connecting rod

Hpmaker

Do you feel that the stock rod is going to hold up at three times and above the stock power output?

In my mind a girdle is going to do little to nothing on a Duramax due to the block design. It is a deep skirt type design where the block ends below the main caps with cross bolts in each main cap. This ties the main caps up into the block and the cross bolts tie the sides of the block together. A girdle will do little to improve upon this type design. I'm not saying it's no good but IMHO it will not do much in this type application. I've had several motors apart with bent rods and all were causes by excessive cylinder pressure. None have shown signs of hydro locking, but, some I've seen pictures of do appear to have hydro locked. Once the rod bends a little to much it's all over. Take a look at every block that's had rods come out and I think you will find it is always the front two cylinders and/or the rear two cylinders. I haven't yet seen a cracked block yet that didn't have a bad rod in it. I believe the rod failures are causing the block failures, so by solving the rod issue with stronger parts to handle the raised power levels I believe we will see the blocks issues disappear but I'm also sure as soon as we solve one issue the power levels will be raised and something else will come to the surface.

I have a question, similiar but not internal. Is the intake manifold part of the problem, since it flows more to the back of the engine, anybody making a new intake?

Brandon is already holding 800hp on stock rods, not that its good for them, but they are holding. Everything has its limits there is no doubt about it.


I would love to see the NLDP motor apart and heartbeat Canada's motor. Yes, we know the end result, but I wanna see the initial problem.

I have a question, similiar but not internal. Is the intake manifold part of the problem, since it flows more to the back of the engine, anybody making a new intake?

www.hogasnsracingmanifolds.com (http://www.hogasnsracingmanifolds.com)

maybe they can help?

While there have been plenty make big numbers on stock rods, they just do not hold up for any length of time. If you look around there are many more parts failing as the power levels rise. Since 500 Hp is becoming more of a commen place thing the parts are failing more, and it is to be expected.

www.hogasnsracingmanifolds.com (http://www.hogasnsracingmanifolds.com)

maybe they can help?

it's hogansracingmanifolds.com (http://dieselplace.com/forum/hogansracingmanifolds.com)

Hogans will build you an intake, I've already talked to them, starting at about 2k


One things for sure, This season will be interesting for sure. Sounds like Diesel Tech has got lots of ideas and I know we have ours along with help from hpmaker at the machine shop. Having a full scale machine shop at your disposal while building high performance engines sure helps.

You guys are all stupid, we all know that it is just to much right foot and not enough brains, I mean they are Diesels we can mod them to the moon they are indistructable .If you look up Diesel in the dictionary it says unbreakable . but hey what do I know :iamwithst

You guys are all stupid, we all know that it is just to much right foot and not enough brains, I mean they are Diesels we can mod them to the moon they are indistructable .If you look up Diesel in the dictionary it says unbreakable.

it doesn't say that in the dictionary

so say if we had a a5000 or a twin turbo set up and was running some serious fuel with big injectors and dual cp3's and we put different or heavier rods in the engine and lowered the compression to compinsate for higher boost the motor should be fairly reliable???

so say if we had a a5000 or a twin turbo set up and was running some serious fuel with big injectors and dual cp3's and we put different or heavier rods in the engine and lowered the compression to compinsate for higher boost the motor should be fairly reliable???

For about 300 feet.

ecc33

If the tuning is properly adjusted for the parts your using I feel that we should be good with the current block for 650 Hp all the time and 1000 Hp in short burst. Time will tell if it will or will not take it. So far no one is there to prove one way or the other. I drive my truck day in and day out and it makes 430RwHp and it's a pleasure to drive. How long will it last is yet to be seen but it's got 20,000 miles on it at this power level with no trouble form the engine.

Thats the problem with these failures, they tend to fall more to chance then anything. When it does fail, a thorough analysis is needed to determine why they fail. If a rod bends to bad, you dont have much time to shut it down and tear it apart and figure out why (other then the obvious reasons) before you spit chunks out the side. Fortunatly, between my crew and hpmaker, we have torn down a good number of motors, some running and some not and more so were looking to get them ready for builds, but we starting seeing stuff we simply did not expect and that really changed our process. It became more apparent that what we or at least I thought was an issue really wasnt. I cannot promise that our solution to the problem is a cure all and will fix anything, but I can promise you one thing, any duramax motor that I EVER put togather again or am involved in will have this simple fix done to it. There will be no option. I dont care if its stock or modded or a full built Pro Street engine. I dont feel I want to share this info at all as I think its going to be an advantage to our builds here. I am sure someday it may be common, but until then..........

Fuel Timing also appears to play a part in some of the issues to a small percentage I THINK. We are only speculating on that, but using knowledge from the Dodge world, we are learning to inspect for signs of timing problems with fuel delivery. We are using the pattern on the pistons for that info.

While I wont share this info publically just yet, There is a few in the core MA group that are aware of it. If somebody wants to see it, stop by the shop.

Man i wish i didnt live so far from every one who seems to be putting some time and effort into these issues, it would be great to see what was actually going on.

Hey dieselMatt, Pick a weekend and come on down, you can see for yourself the talented team that Eric has put together, And I am not just saying that because I work there, You have to see and meet everybody thats working to make the Duramax a force in the performance world.

dieseltodust: i would love to come down but with school and work the schedual is a bit full at the moment.

Hpmaker

Excessive cylinder pressure is what bends rods. How you get the excessive cylinder pressure comes from many areas. The most common being more boost (air) and the fuel to go with it.
Excessive cylinder pressure will show signs in other places in the engine such as the main and rod bearings, bernalling on the cylinder head and the block deck surfaces, main bearing cap walk. of which I have only seen the bernelling on the cylinder heads which is common in a bymetal set up such as the Duramax. As for the replcement of connecting rods and pistons in the areas of a top fuel engine, they make as much hp in one cylinder as you are talking about in your "triple the stock hp" and the RPM range tops out around 8000, Nascar engines turn 8500-9000 RPM for most of the 550 miles, and then these parts are not simply discarded, they usually get sold to the guys in lower classes who run them for who knows how long before being disarded. Formula 1 engines are turning in ecxess of 10000 RPM for the duration of their races. One of the biggest and most important differences between us and them is not technology but is budget. Most of the guys I do work for enthusists who are tring to balance making the ends meet and having a great time at the track on the weekend.:blahblah:

The biggest differences in the LB7/LLY and LBZ piston and rod combinations are the LBZ piston has a shorter skirt than the LB7/LLY. The LBZ pin is the same diameter though the over all length is longer, and it weighs 6.5 grams heavier. Side note, if your wondering how much weight a gram is? take a dollar bill from your wallet, hold it in your hand. You now have a gram of weight. The connecting rods are 25 grams different with the LBZ being the heavier. Most of the weight in the rod is in the beam which can be seen by camparing the two side by side. The LBZ piston is almost 70 grams heavier than the LB7/LLY unit. The combustion chamber in the two pistons only vary by 1.5 cc's in size. Now remember it takes more horsepower to turn heavier parts at the same given RPM, so if your looking for a better rod than stock then call Diesel Tech for he claimed to have rods in stock but keep in mind if they are ones from the only rod manufacturer that i am aware having already produced rods for the Max. The manufacturer told us that these rods are 400 grams heavier than the stock piece, that is why MA and myself have contacted other rod makers for an aftermarket piece to reduce weight without sacrificing durability. Stock rods are fine for 90% of you, its the upper few % of the last 10% that will benifit from aftermarket rods strenght, but at that point, weight or lack of is more important then long term reliability.

Hey dieselMatt, Pick a weekend and come on down, you can see for yourself the talented team that Eric has put together, And I am not just saying that because I work there, You have to see and meet everybody thats working to make the Duramax a force in the performance world.


:cool2: Maybe ill just take a week and come up and check it out. While im there ill just get a sc4 installed.):h Im in desperate need.:help2:

The connecting rods are 25 grams different with the LBZ being the heavier. Most of the weight in the rod is in the beam which can be seen by camparing the two side by side.

The manufacturer told us that these rods are 400 grams heavier than the stock piece

Now remember it takes more horsepower to turn heavier parts at the same given RPM



I hate to disagree but it's obvious you do not know what we have or what we have done. The stock LB7/LLY rod weight is 1133.9 grams our replacement rod is 1179.3 grams. Part of the weight is due to us using larger rod bolts than stock. That's no where near what you've stated. Is it heavier than stock, yes, but we've said that all along. We have also told people the stock rods are good for about 500 RwHp. Once you go above that your on borrowed time. Since you want to talk about weight why are the rods bending if not for cylinder pressure? If weight was the problem you would see it in the bearings and I can show you several motors with rods out the side of the block with the rod bearings from the broken rods still in good shape.

It takes more Hp to get heavier parts up to speed but it doesn't take more to keep them at speed. This is the same reason people use heavy flywheel to keep a load moving. While light parts will come up to speed faster they will also fail much sooner. Since you do not want to use a fuel motor rod how about an Alcohol rod .................. it's replaced at 40 passes and they make about 1600 Hp and 1100 ft/lbs. Since the big power duramax's are making right at 900 Hp and 1500 ft/lbs they are pretty close and as power rises we will get there. So let's say we can save 40 grams from the rod and 70 grams from the piston/pin area. GM saw it necessary to increase the pin area to help with the load of just adding 45 Hp what do you think is going to happen if you try to reduce the pin diameter placing more load into a smaller area! We are still not going to be able to get down to and Alcohol motor piston/pin weights and have a piston live. A stock piston is about 900 grams, an Alcohol motor piston is about 500 grams. That's one of the main factors in rod design so you need something a little stronger than a current Alcohol rod just to get to 40 passes in. Now let's get that into street mileage. 40 x 1/4 = 10 miles of use before time to replace. Let's say we can make it 10 times better so now we've got 100 miles before replacement. The numbers are pretty easy to see why a stronger rod is necessary for long term life at higher than stock Hp levels. The only way to make it work is with a high quality steel rod for street use. The question next becomes how much lighter can we make them and keep the strength up. We know what we have now works so it a good starting place for everyone out there. Can we save some weight and keep the current strength of our rod? I will wait for all the different testing were doing now before I answer that question.

I think its cool that Eric and his crew have unlocked a few secrets. They've got enough time and effort into there R&D program, they deserve to have an edge. I respect him and his crew for not devolging their findings.

Keep up the good work Eric... :ro) :ro) :ro)

Sounds like the Dodge boys are going to have their work cut out for them this year.

Why does weight become so much of an issue? I always thought weight was an issue if your talking High RPM stuff? Im not saying you could have a 50 lbs connecting rod or anything like that, but a couple of grams here and there.

Are we talking about street engines or race engines here? Apparently we keep moving back and forth. Lets not get the two mixed up as they are different. The requirements and durability are different based on intended purpose and budget. Just a few years ago, the Nascar boys had qualifing engines that were even more on the edge and only had to go approx 5 miles. Every aspect was looked at for lightening every possible gram out of the engine as durability was not an issue. Thats a real extreme edge.

The info that we were given by said rod manufacturer was accurate at that time. I dont know what changes they may have made to the unit since then, but at that time, those numbers come directly from the mfg.

In a STREET application, your still not gonna convince me that we need rods in these engines. A street application is considered a daily driver, weekend racer/puller IMO

In a RACE application, I look at a race application is where the truck is nearly exclusively driven on the track. Its typically a trailer queen.

Even in the race applications, I dont see any NASCAR/Top Fuel budgets. I am building a few motors with MA and while those customers are stepping up, they are still only doing this on a smaller budget then the big boys.

Lets keep the confusion at a minimum here, are we talking race engines or street engines here?

It looks as if we have different opinions on what it takes to make big horsepower, and thats great IMO. Thats what moves the level forward.

hpmaker: My initial inquary about upgraded internals were for a daily driven street truck that runs a mild tune for daily use but on the weekends when its time to race/pull it could run a rather aggressive tune for max hp/tq. The reason for inquaring about the internals was because i still want to use my truck as a truck and not have to worry about breaking things when the weekend rolls around. Im not sure that i put that the clearest but i think you'll get the picture.

I know this is off the subject of the connecting rod debate, but has there been any problems with sealing the cylinder heads to the block? I know some guys have switched over to ARP studs, but I've never heard any mension of failure. Cast Iron Block + Aluminum Heads + Boost + NOS + Propane = Head Gasket Problems? Can you use a copper gasket and O-Ring the block on a Diesel? I know that works for the import guys.

The requirements and durability are different based on intended purposes and it has nothing to do with budget. If your worried about budgets then you need to lower the power down so the customer can live within there budget.

One first needs to define the intended purpose that things are to be used in. This means setting power requirements and longevity. A typical customer wants it all and as we all know you cannot get it all. Since the power levels are currently right at double the stock power in more than a few street driven vehicles we have to call them a street vehicle for purposes of designing parts. With the current high power programs, NOS, propane, larger turbo's and water meth. this brings the numbers closer to triple stock power. These are STREET VEHICLES that race on the weekend. A stock rod is not going to live in these conditions. This is currently what many customers are running every day. The power levels are going to continue going higher with the new parts being introduced this summer so we only have to look at more stress on the rods and other components. Like I said before, GM felt it was necessary to increase rod and piston/pin strength with the LBZ and all they added was 45 Hp. Were adding 500 HP! If you are building a motor for power levels above 500 RwHp the rods need to be replaced.

Since were dealing with a diesel engine we do not have to live in the high RPM area on these vehicles, most are limited to 3500-3800 RPM but we do have to look at the stress a diesel puts into the rotating assemble that a gas motor never sees at the same engine speeds. That is just part of the work that's already been done and gone into making rods as we have. It seems your information is from someone other than our supplier or you have misunderstood what you were told as I've supplied you the real numbers. If your looking into making Al. rods they will work and not last very long, but, so long as the customer has the budget to change them along with lighten pistons every 40 passes or so you will have a faster revving engine than one with heavier parts. I could not ever recommend a AL rod or a Ti. rod for these applications as they will just not hold up on the street. If on the other hand a customer wanted everything they could get and it was a trailer queen as you called it, and they had the budget to change parts every 40 or so passes by all means lighten everything up as far as possible. Those with smaller budgets would be much better served by using our steel rods and giving up a little weight to have them last.

Steve, so in your opinion for members looking for more power (and for others considering power adders chemical or otherwise), what is least harmful on an engine with stock internals?

Boost?
Watermeth?
Propane?
NOS?

Done properly a tuneup to the ECM with addition boost seems to be the safest up to 450 RwHp but one done with lots of timing will kill a motor quick. NOS is fairly easy on the motor when used properly but, improperly .......
I am not a fan of propane because it drys the cylinder lubrication out but like all the other modifications a small amount is OK, a lot and boom. Watermeth is something I will not use on anything but a Race motor.

When upgrading the Pistons and Rods, do you have to pull the motor or can you do it with just pulling the heads and droping the oil pan? I use the word "just", but I understand its still a very big job either way.

Done properly a tuneup to the ECM with addition boost seems to be the safest up to 450 RwHp but one done with lots of timing will kill a motor quick. NOS is fairly easy on the motor when used properly but, improperly .......
I am not a fan of propane because it drys the cylinder lubrication out but like all the other modifications a small amount is OK, a lot and boom. Watermeth is something I will not use on anything but a Race motor.


Again in your opinion Steve.......How much timing is too much? Ive asked this question several times with no clear answer. Will the amount of "safe" timing a tune has running just #2 be OK running drugs as well? Or does that open another can of worms?

Again in your opinion Steve.......How much timing is too much? Ive asked this question several times with no clear answer. Will the amount of "safe" timing a tune has running just #2 be OK running drugs as well? Or does that open another can of worms?

That is a very good question Tys. it will also vary with top rpm as well i would imagine.

Can any one guess what our cylinder pressures are with a top fueling program and say 60#s of boost as I have been told gm tested there lbz motors up to 3500psi cylinder presure without ever bending a rod.

maybe we are just bending rods when we try in fit to much liguids between the piston and the head, and cause a hydro lock situation. the duramax does not offer a big squash?

i have seen a few rods bent and think it has been caused from liquid propane, or water injection not being atomised well enought causing the hydro lock situation...

if you look at the all the guys that have bent rods, they have been using one of the two chemicls..

as for hp being the culprit, there has been to many guys running in the 6 to 700hp area with out having any problems, so i feel bent rods are not from hp, but rather hydrolock, or extream combustion pressures from the chemicals...

Brandon has never had a problem and dynoed in the 8 hundreds, with lots of track time, but only running nitrous

i have ran lp in a higher hp form for a while now and things are good except if i overfill the lp tanks and get a shot of liquid entering(only have done that once, not a good noise)

Fred, welcome to the "now you got it" club. Its a small club, I was starting to feel lonely.

Fred, welcome to the "now you got it" club. Its a small club, I was starting to feel lonely.):h

Fred

Look at the amount of fuel injected per firing cycle and the volume of the piston/ head combination and you will find that they are not event close to one another. I've seen some motors that appear to have been hydro locked but I have several here that were not and they have bent rods. I also have taken measurements on motors that have never had NOS, propane or watermeth and have bent rods. The trick is to catch a couple of motors before they fail and we have been able to do that. Take the heads off and check piston depth from the block and when you find the pistons down the hole your in trouble. We have found motors that make 460 RwHp running fine and find the pistons .030 to .080 down the hole when they should have been .0088 - .0148 up out of the hole. We have event made a few 11.6x passes with a motor that the rods were already bent and they did not put rods out the side. When we took it apart we found them so I'm sure there are alot more engines out there that already have bent rods but the customers do not event know it. The only way the piston goes down the hole is if the piston failed or the rod bent. What we have found is the piston is fine but the rods are not. So if you think it coming from too much liquid because of added items in these cases it was not. Not that this will always be the case but it does show without a doubt what is failing first.

The question then becomes at what level do they start to fail. I define a failure at the point when the rod begins to bend, not when it goes out the side of the block. We feel this point is being reached at or near 500 RwHp.

Timing alone is not the whole issue so there is no way to say "X" amount is too much. What I can tell you is if you have ever heard rattle can type noises coming out the the engine you are doing damage little by little. When you add propane or NOS they both cause and engine to burn the fuel quicker so you have in affect advanced the timing by adding these items to your truck. A properly done tuneup will vary depending on what all you have added to the truck and it's not a one size fits all answer.

Timing alone is not the whole issue so there is no way to say "X" amount is too much. What I can tell you is if you have ever heard rattle can type noises coming out the the engine you are doing damage little by little. When you add propane or NOS they both cause and engine to burn the fuel quicker so you have in affect advanced the timing by adding these items to your truck. A properly done tuneup will vary depending on what all you have added to the truck and it's not a one size fits all answer.


OK......so how much timing can be had before the rattle starts? Again just on #2.:confused:

OK......so how much timing can be had before the rattle starts? Again just on #2.:confused:

My answer is still the same and it's not what you want to hear. There is no max limit just on #2, you need to know how much fuel is being injected, what is the temperature of the fuel, what is the temperature of the motor, what is the temperature air entering the engine and a slew more things to give you an answer for any one point. Then event if you gave me all the data I still would not give an answer as that is information we have learned with years of tuning and it what we get paid to know. :D

My answer is still the same and it's not what you want to hear. There is no max limit just on #2, you need to know how much fuel is being injected, what is the temperature of the fuel, what is the temperature of the motor, what is the temperature air entering the engine and a slew more things to give you an answer for any one point. Then event if you gave me all the data I still would not give an answer as that is information we have learned with years of tuning and it what we get paid to know. :D


):h OK i didnt realize i was askin for all that info......It looks like EFI might be in order:cool:

EFIlive is not going to tell you anything, but it will let you change things from where they are to start with. Better or worse is up to you so if you do go that route be careful. A couple of wrong key strokes and your wallet will get lightened up a bunch more than you wanted too. :eek:

Steve, do you feel your Xtreme tune can be used as a "safe" nitrous setup as you call it?

What do you consider the "correct" nitrous setup?

We have never done any testing with NOS and the Xtreme tune in house. Plenty of customers are running it that way but I have no way to know what may or may not be happening. It may or may not be fine but the rods are not going to like it for long periods of time. For short burst of power it will do it but the more burst you use the more things are going to fail and I believe this is what we are seeing in the field today. I am not saying it will fall apart tomorrow but with time after time usage they are failing.

All one needs to do is look around at the failures as the power has come higher and higher. We released the Xtreme LB7 tune in early 2003 and so now we are beginning to see what happens long term. The problem is trying to determine where is the point things begin to happen not the point where they break. There will be several new power enhancements we release this summer and the numbers will go higher yet, but we want to make sure you the customer understands it comes with a price and what needs to be done for the engine to handle it. The rods are the first in a group of parts we have worked on to handle the higher power levels, more to come as they are completed.

You the customer needs to determine what power level you can afford to run at but it's awful hard if your not told the problems that can come along with the higher power levels. We here at TTS are trying to let everyone know what we are seeing in the field and in our in house testing. If you have the budget and want to build a race engine we can do that too but as stated before it's got a completely different life span.