I have been searing around for the parts to put an intercooler on my truck. I searched all the intercooler threads that I could find and still have a couple questions. maybe the guys that have done this can help. What are the differences or advantages to silicone piping vs. aluminum or steel. Is it heat retention? What size or cu. ft. of flow is adaquate for the 6.5. Lastly, what effect does 90 deg. bends have on the system?

Thanks,
Dan

Cost, silicone tube is expensive so you will need to use both if you don't have welding skills or tools; swept 90's or ones with radius bends, hard turns where air hits a hard wall befre making turn are less efficient. sometimes use 45s to make the turn is better. Air in is like exhaust out smoothest flow possible is best for efficiency.

You may pick up some heat with metal tube but also may dissipate heat as well. 2.25" ID IIRC is tube size on mine

14PSI of boost = about 800CFM.

2.5-3.0" piping is what I plan on using.

In fact I just bought this intercooler:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2F%2Fsearch%2 Fsearch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D8025489473%26 fvi%3D1&item=8025489473

14PSI of boost = about 800CFM.

2.5-3.0" piping is what I plan on using.

In fact I just bought this intercooler:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2F%2Fsearch%2 Fsearch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D8025489473%26 fvi%3D1&item=8025489473


!!!!!!!!!!!! WHERE THE HELL U GONNA STICK THAT THING!!!!!!!!

31" long is BIG for our trucks, get pics and let me know where u hide it

:offtopic: a bit off topic, but for the life of me I cant decypher the "IIRC" in the line below.
"You may pick up some heat with metal tube but also may dissipate heat as well. 2.25" ID IIRC is tube size on mine"

I have seen this before in other threads but I must be getting slower as age creeps up:)

"If I Remember Correctly"
...I think...:D

Yup IIRC If I Remember Correctly

A disclaimer I find myself using more often these days as I draw closer to 1/2 century mark; and those brain cells abused in my heavier drinking days of youth, are rebelling against me in the memory recall dept.

!!!!!!!!!!!! WHERE THE HELL U GONNA STICK THAT THING!!!!!!!!

31" long is BIG for our trucks, get pics and let me know where u hide it

Honestly I am not 100% sure yet! After many hours of thinking about what size, how much airflow etc, I finally decided to get a reasonably big IC and squeeze/cut until it fit!

I will definatly post picts.

Honestly I am not 100% sure yet! After many hours of thinking about what size, how much airflow etc, I finally decided to get a reasonably big IC and squeeze/cut until it fit!

I will definatly post picts.

That is what I did and mine was a 24" intercooler and I cut almost all the way through my front frame horns!!

Here is the problem u will run into: The total frame width is something like 32-34". Well, now add on the 90 degree elbows to go up to the engine and the width is now 34 + 4 + 4 (3" pipe) = 42". This larger width will interfer with the tires and will rub on them. I have already gone through this. Believe me. So unless u mount it other then between the rails, u will have a problem.

That is what I did and mine was a 24" intercooler and I cut almost all the way through my front frame horns!!

Here is the problem u will run into: The total frame width is something like 32-34". Well, now add on the 90 degree elbows to go up to the engine and the width is now 34 + 4 + 4 (3" pipe) = 42". This larger width will interfer with the tires and will rub on them. I have already gone through this. Believe me. So unless u mount it other then between the rails, u will have a problem.

Well, my first plan is to cut off the inlet/exit and weld them to the back face. My hope was this would allow for a decent fit between the rails while running the tubs kinda like Kennedy's big cooler. But as an off roader I am very concerned with impact damage and will toy with pushing it up into the bumper.

If all else fails back goes the radiator. Many have dismissed this location citing the limited cooling capacity, but it has to better to disipate the heat in front of the radiator than to ram it down it's throat!!

What do you think?

cutting the inlet/outlet and relocating is a great idea, it will still be tricky to plumb the tubing. I dunno, try it, experiment and fabricate till the fingers bleed if need be. That is how I go about it most of the time.

I am thinking about using this one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Liquid-Intercooler-ASSEMBLY-Air-Water-Intercooler_W0QQitemZ8027216456QQcategoryZ33632QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I know some people here disagree with the Air/Water setup, and you may be right. If it isn't good enough, I'll just sell it and get a regular I/C

Bill

I am thinking about using this one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Liquid-Intercooler-ASSEMBLY-Air-Water-Intercooler_W0QQitemZ8027216456QQcategoryZ33632QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I know some people here disagree with the Air/Water setup, and you may be right. If it isn't good enough, I'll just sell it and get a regular I/C

Bill
I personally think that the liquid to air intercooler has pro's and cons over the air to air. You have the ability to turn it off when not needed with the air to liquid, and you have higher efficiency. Alot of people don't realize it, but you can actually cool the incoming air to much. To cool of an intake charge will cause inefficiency in combustion. The real downfall to the air to liquid is that you have to then transfer the heat from the liquid back to the air again.

I was also curious about what kind of a decrease in EGT that people are seeing that have installed intercoolers? Thanks for all the input everyone has given!

30 deg over ambient is what mine nets on a hot day cooler days it can get as low as a 10 deg delta

TD, exhaust gas temps? I was wondering if anyone has seen a significant differance

Dan

Doh, you did mention that

Prior to IC install I would easily top 850 EGT post turbo on a hard run even not towing, now I struggle to break 750 even dragging the GN trailer loaded up with my backhoe

Thanks TD, really appreciate all you do for the site.

Dan

No problemo Dan,

Barring the occasional bad day which leads me to rant, I enjoy the comradeship here sort of an AA support group, it helps having fellow Diesel addicts to get through the day.

what if you put your intercooler above the intake and put a scoop on the hood to grab the air and direct it through thay way?

what if you put your intercooler above the intake and put a scoop on the hood to grab the air and direct it through thay way?

What about when you are going slooooowwwww?

how about fan assisted? you could put a good sized cooler on and a radiator fanon the back side?

No matter what you end up doing here please post pictures so we all can look and learn

i have my data, lets all try something and compare. But I have to say, I am boosting way more than anyone here and it comparing my IAT's to anyone elses is like apples and oranges.

Am I high boost 6.5 member #1 (30+ psi)?

14PSI of boost = about 800CFM.



that is a very dangerous statement. Tell me if 14 pounds with either of these two compressors is 800 CFM, better yet, tell me why 14 pounds with both isn't the same amount of airflow.

that is a very dangerous statement. Tell me if 14 pounds with either of these two compressors is 800 CFM, better yet, tell me why 14 pounds with both isn't the same amount of airflow.

grape, my calculation is very simple, a ~400ci engine at 2 atmosphere is about 800CFM.

grape, my calculation is very simple, a ~400ci engine at 2 atmosphere is about 800CFM.

I gotta jump on the Grape bandwagon here. What RPM? Don't forget 1728 c.i. in a cubic foot.

Am I high boost 6.5 member #1 (30+ psi)?
Until you go BOOM

I gotta jump on the Grape bandwagon here. What RPM? Don't forget 1728 c.i. in a cubic foot.

Like I said, very generic calc. But here it is:

~400ci / 2 because it is a 4-stroke = 200ci, but at 14PSI is 2 bar or double the size, so 400ci * 3400 RPM = 1360000ci per minute / 1728 = 787 CFM. Give or take 800.

I know this makes a lot of assumptions, but it will ensure my IC has plenty of flow, more than I actually need. That is what I wanted.

I see what you're saying. Close enough without getting anal. That intercooler is huge for our trucks. When you get it in we want pictures.

I see what you're saying. Close enough without getting anal.

Plus a little room to grow!

Until you go BOOM

Then it goes back to Peninsular. 30psi is right where their 300 hp turbo hits on thier dyno and in the marine application.

"If I Remember Correctly"
...I think...:D

thanks, I was wayyyyyy out in left field on this one. :)

I'm not positive, but isn't CFM constant regardless of pressure? If an engine needs 300 CFM at atmospheric, then it needs 300 CFM at 100 psi. Right?

Bill

I'm not positive, but isn't CFM constant regardless of pressure? If an engine needs 300 CFM at atmospheric, then it needs 300 CFM at 100 psi. Right?

Bill

Indirectly you are correct. The correct volume measurement of a gas would include a known pressure, CFM generally assumes 1 ATM. 300CFM at 14.7PSI is not equal, in mass or density, to 300PSI at 100PSI.

I have a riddle for all you CFM guys...........how big is the engine when the intake and exhaust valve are both open during overlap. How many cubic inches is the engine then?

For the last time, engine size has very little to do with airflow when it's pressurized.

I have a riddle for all you CFM guys...........how big is the engine when the intake and exhaust valve are both open during overlap. How many cubic inches is the engine then?

For the last time, engine size has very little to do with airflow when it's pressurized.

YEPPER!! Whole new ball game with boost vs. NA. That is why porting a turbo motor does not make the gains like a NA motor.

I am thinking about using this one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Liquid-Intercooler-ASSEMBLY-Air-Water-Intercooler_W0QQitemZ8027216456QQcategoryZ33632QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I know some people here disagree with the Air/Water setup, and you may be right. If it isn't good enough, I'll just sell it and get a regular I/C

Bill

I was wondering what the opinions are about a water to air intercooler since they can be installed in a much smaller area. I have an air to air that I haven't yet installed but was considering the water to air. Anyone done it and what were your results?

Well, the air/water is generally more efficient. However, it is more complex to plumb. The air/air is generally less efficient, is bulkier, and is easier to plumb.

The liquid intercooler uses 2 heat exchangers and a water pump. One cools the air (this is what is shown on the E-bay link), and the other cools the liquid. The second one is like a small rad that can be mounted anywhere there is room and a supply of cool air. You may want to mount a small electric fan behind it as well.

The reason this type is not used more often in the OEM is because it is more complex and more things can go wrong with it. However, it is the most prolific with serious drag racers. Also, in our trucks, it is easier to fit a liquid IC and all its parts, because the individual pieces are smaller.

The air/air IC consists of an intercooler. It's simple, but it's BIG, and not as efficient.

This is all my opinion and I cannot offer first hand experience like others here who have done sucessfull intercooler installs.

Bill

For the last time, engine size has very little to do with airflow when it's pressurized.

So your saying its actually less because the exhaust back pressure is higher than boost?

does anyone know what flow rate is ideal for the water in the liquid intercooler? I am getting some ideas floating through my mind now and am wondering about the liquid pump. Is there a brand/model that works best for this?

I think that flow is a trial and error thing. Some guys use bilge pumps, there is a Ford moter that used a belt driven water pump that could be adapted. You just have to look for something that can pump antifreeze and can handle some heat.

Bill

You could adapt the water pump off of a chrysler 3.3L or 3.8L V-6 engine. It is a belt driven external pump set-up that is fairly compact, shouldn't be hard to adapt to work for this application. It is a lower flow water pump so it would probably flow enough to provide adequite circulation as well.

Maybe this site will be interesting to those that are trying to design an intercooler set-up on your trucks. It appears to be a place were you can order the core size and tank configiuration that you would like. They also say they have a free design service. For what it's worth here is the site address. www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/AAMain.html (http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/AAMain.html)

Maybe of use to someone. They deal with both air-air and air-liquid systems.

Dan

They deal with both air-air and air-liquid systems.

Dan

They could best settle the pissing contest we get into around here about air to air and air to liquid intercooling. Where they sell both, you would get an honest answer to what would work BEST.

As far as which works best I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, both could be sized to be as efficient in cooling as the other, it becomes a matter of system complexity and trade off for what works given install scenario, and truck use, mostly offroad there may be an advantage to a water/water kit, or WMI .

I've expressed before in other threads/other websites (especially those where steak-boy shows his mettle) how when off road; boost is probably low enuff to not need to worry over high IAT, so an armoring of a under bumper IC is not out of realm of possibility. That said I don't hard core offroad mine in deep mud, or climb rocks with it to worry over the IC being "at risk" if I did then WMI or water/water might be the way I went.

WMI works also but it requires replenishment of expended water, probably the least expensive to fab/install.

Water to air closed loop will work if sized properly for a good heat exchange, but will require a second tier of cooing to cool the water once it absorbs the heat of the air charge, more expensive than WMI, probably about same cost as and air/air if you fab that yourself.

IC's are set & forget, somewhat expensive in kitted form, less expensive for a self do kit, but requires a sizeable footprint for mounting of one large enuff to really handle the air charge, and associated plumbing to route the air.

Pick your solution, is all I can offer, but study your needs, hey dare I say it; some folks don't need any post turbo cooling.

I'm NOT trying to :stirthepo but couldn't you use a smaller sized Air to Water, at least to cool the intake air, depending on how well the water cooling portion worked.
Did that question make any sense?

I'm NOT trying to :stirthepo but couldn't you use a smaller sized Air to Water, at least to cool the intake air, depending on how well the water cooling portion worked.
Did that question make any sense?

Yes

Yes

Just throwing something out there for discussion. I and another forum member on here are currently working with a vendor to come up with a SIMPLE w/a intercooler for my truck. He has never done one on a diesel before, but on a gas engine with ambient temps at 110F he got temp drops of 60-80F. Bigger units would do better, but I wanted something simple to install that didn't eat up alot of my engine compartment. I have been in discussions with him for about a month and I hope to have mine built and tested in another month or two and I will post results. During our discussions a few things have come out that were talked about on this thread.

1. The intercooler on these systems is much smaller than the a/a units. MUCH SMALLER. Because of this there is alot smaller region that air is being cooled and therefore the intercooler selected is critical. He has test data that shows different intercooler brands in the same vehicle using the same pumps and heat exchanger with 30-40F difference in temp drops. In a/a systems there will be differences from unit to unit too, but they are so large that similar sized units will generally perform in the same ballpark - not so with l/a units. Efficiency is the key and sometimes the smaller unit gives better results!
2. Coolant flow and heat exchanger are also critical. Even if your intercooler is the best, if you can't get rid of the heat, you won't get good results. Let's just say 5 gpm isn't going to cut it for significant temp drops.

Originally I was just going to do this for myself (engineers like to fiddle with things:) ), but if the temp drop numbers come out similar to the gas engine numbers, I believe there will be some interest in this type of setup. He has offered to help me design this thing and if it turns out simple and cheap enough he would kit the parts for others to install. Don't know what the price would be yet, but it should be less than most of the a/a kits that are available. Would there be any interest in something like this?

I ask because if I design this for myself I will be putting it together by welding and fabbing parts that make it perfect. In a kit form, I would be designing it to keep it simple to install and cheap. Just curious.

Smaller then A/A, easy to install, uses a glycol/Methanol mixture that doesn't freeze in a sealed system, lowers temps more than A/A, cheaper then A/A.... I'd be very interested.

If the price is right.

I don't know about beating the a/a systems with temp drop - at least not with the unit I am looking at. I believe I could do that with a bigger unit, but the tubing would be a nightmare. With the current design it SHOULD get in the ballpark of the a/a units, but it probably won't beat them. I'll get REAL WORLD temps off of it when I get it installed - still designing right now. The good thing is that my additional tubing run is only 6 inches with the current layout, so I'm willing to loose a little cooling to minimize duct length and ease install. With such a short tube run, alignment is causing some design issues, but I think we have a workaround. Hence the question - one workaround is a fab piece that would cost a few hundred bucks, the other is alot simpler and cheaper. Being an engineer I like perfection, but to make it affordable, the other option would work just as good - just wouldn't look as neat.

BTW does anyone know where I can get a spare intake manifold and turbo cover to play with. I would really like to get my hands on a spare one because I use my truck as a daily driver and I'm pretty sure I need those two pieces to keep it operable! ;)

A PWR intercooler may work better than the one shown due to its smaller size. The other problem I foresee is the size of the water storage tank for the intercooler. We used one on our race car that held about 5 gallons or so. We also used a marine bilge pump to circulate the water. I can get part numbers, pics and a small video of the setup is needed

Steve

I would love to see a cheap and easy air to water system. Would it be a problem to mount the coolant storage take for the intercooler under the truck? i mean my Tahoe has a crap load of space by the rear drive shaft. you could put the tank and even the rad for the intercooler there with a fan on it to keep it cool. my truck is my driver and i don't do much 4x4in. mostly pulling my dirt bike around. even empty i can reach 1200F pre turbo temps. so i would love anything that could help with EGTs and IATs.

CTSVTnF350 - I like the way you think ;) ! That is a very good core, but why did you need so big of a reservoir? With the right heat exchanger and pump you should have been able to use a considerably smaller reservoir with the water in the tank being lukewarm at most. What size was the 'marine bilge pump' and what heat exchanger were you using?

jsink we were not using any type of radiator at all. The size of the tank was larger because we had it packed full of ice and water. What was interesting was the fact that even with a 600whp car running a GT42R turbo it still took a very long time for the ice to melt. We used either the 8x10 or the 8x8 barrel intercooler. I really cant remember off the top of my head. I dont have the specs on the pump at the moment but I'll make sure to stop by my shop and grab them. What I did notice was that PWR came out with alot more intercoolers and I'm definitly going to have to check thos out further.

Steve

I know this discussion has worked towards air to water IC's, but I have the oportunity to buy a '94 cummins intercooler off a guy at work. If I can get it to fit, are they good enough to support 20 psi and 270 hp in my 6.5? I doubt I will ever get that many pounds of boost, but It would be nice.

If I can get it to fit, are they good enough to support 20 psi and 270 hp in my 6.5? I doubt I will ever get that many pounds of boost, but It would be nice.

That intercooler will support 400 Hp and 60 psi of boost, they are very well built and I have seen a stock dodge intercooler hold 45 psi in my uncle's truck.

Would be an interesting one to see go into a 6.5 truck, get pics and share too!

OK, sounds good about the IC I will! From the thread that I started about a piston pin knocking, looks like I am going to be pulling the engine soon. I don't want to get off topic, but I have a few questions for you Chicago. :) I'll ask them on my own thread.