ok a few of you guys have aftermarket injects in now.was wondering if any of you had a chance to spin the dyno rollers yet.if so what hp did you get.if you ran a dyno run before injects and after that info would be great too.i am very interested to see some data.would love to know that by adding some 100 hp injects my rear wheel hp can jump 100 hp...tell all pleasehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

please do tellhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

It'll be a bit before I get to a point where I can do the testing. Hopefully soon, as I've had some ready to go for some time now...

Alright, I did hit the rollers this past weekend and was very dissapointed. Something was not right, whether it was my trans slipping or the dyno being screwed as it broke earlier in the day and was supposedly fixed. Cummins guys that I talked to had low numbers also. This was on a Dyno Jet, "Stock", Dave and King know what my stock is! 270hp and 465 ft/lb of torque. I am planning on running again after I get a trans and might go to a different dyno. I was running OD Lockout with T/H on. Could not really get into it hard until just under 2000rpm to avoid downshift. I was building roughly 28 pounds of boost.

hey man on those numbers your stock run should have still been well with in even your hurt trannys holding capacity.something definately isnt right at all.hope you get it figured out....anyone esle?????

White


Looking at your sig (plus injectors)you really put the cart before the horse if your still running around with a stock slush box ....


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

I know it, but the way it happened, I would be stupid not too. Saved me a lot of money on R&R.

whoose injectors?

Dave, I thought I told ya.

I knew eric was puting them in but was not shure of the supplier.....they should make much more with the tst and duramaximiser......course a lift pump could become a necessity. Were they flow matched?......500 should be easy with enough fuel supply. keep us informed.

I had Quad do them. They are matched I believe as they are all done at once. I have yet to add any fuel pressure to them, because of a bad switch on my maximizer, tried to make on work, bad idea, so I will have to get one from PPE. I just got a Holley blue today. Will be putting it on soon. I will run it again after I get this stuff done. What pressure are you running your lift pump at?

7psi if you need the dial I have an extra......I ordered the ecm/dmaxizer combo.....its yours just say you want it

bringing this one back to the top,many more adding injects all the time.you guys have you been to the dyno are you getting your moneys worth.there is a belief by some programmers that with proper fuel mapping that the stock injects can flow all the fuel that the given high pressure pump can push.some body give us some info please 1000 is a lot of money to spend on injects that are sposed to give 75-100 hp and you barely get 20 at stock,makes me wonder if you will get any at all over a properly programed box or ecm......common somebody tell

You just keep listening to whoever your listening to kingd. Any fool that thinks adding more fuel through larger injectors isn't capable of more hp than stock injectors is crazy. The high pressure pump is not even close to it's capacity with stock injectors so whoever told you that can keep on dreaming.

Silence can be deafening and can lead to speculation. So let me go first.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif Perhaps "beta" injectors have issues that need to be addressed before anyone can reveal the details?

You just keep listening to whoever your listening to kingd. Any fool that thinks adding more fuel through larger injectors isn't capable of more hp than stock injectors is crazy. The high pressure pump is not even close to it's capacity with stock injectors so whoever told you that can keep on dreaming. strange you should mentiuon it craig,i thought all the variance in power box and ecm performance may be based on the high pressure pump.i mean a quad 215 on my truck and many others does 450- 470 every time.but on others trucks it only does 415 to 430.what occounts for these differences?.and as for the any fool deal,i know it sounds crazy but to steal and modify a line from a famous movie SHOW ME THE POWER!!! i guess you have bigger injects i would be glad to see some of your dyno sheets.i have tested out many of these products and given reports on what i have found.i am interested in the injects but i do not want to put them in until i get some positive feed back.fact is people i have talked with arnt all together happy with thier injects.not trying to flame just lookin for info

You just keep listening to whoever your listening to kingd. Any fool that thinks adding more fuel through larger injectors isn't capable of more hp than stock injectors is crazy. The high pressure pump is not even close to it's capacity with stock injectors so whoever told you that can keep on dreaming.


Why then at high power settings does the actual fuel pressure fall short of commanded fuel pressure? Logic would dictate that something either is restricting the fuel flow to the HP pump or the demanded fuel flow rate is in excess of the max flow rate of the HP pump. Just asking a question here, don't shoot the messenger. But what else could it be?Edited by: a64pilot

very well stated,but i am sure cp can answer your question

Why then at high power settings does the actual fuel pressure fall short of commanded fuel pressure? Logic would dictate that something either is restricting the fuel flow to the HP pump or the demanded fuel flow rate is in excess of the max flow rate of the HP pump. Just asking a question here, don't shoot the messenger. But what else could it be?

Where did the data for this come from? very interesting, i asume you mean rail pressure. Has this been tested with and without lift pump?

Even if the pressure can't keep up, doesn't larger injectors allow more flow?

I think he is referring to some trucks being watched with a tech 2 and running hard to see if fuel pressure meets the demand. You can kind of do this with a Predator. I believe the tech 2 will graph it for you though. That would be a lot easier to read.

Just because the ECM is calling for a certain pressure it doesn't mean that it is needed. It could just be a linear formula based on test data for the engine. This formula could take in to account losses and wear over time. I wonder if the engine would even know the difference between 22000 and 24000 psi.

It knows the difference, trust me, it runs a little different at higher rail psi. Hence the Duramaximizer.

I just finished getting my injectors put in.I got them from Dr. performance and I will tell you that so far I have not made any more power with them but he say's I have to check the fuel pressures to make sure that I am not running out of fuel so monday I will do some more testing to see if I can make some power. I do have a holley blue pump on the truck and I have checked the pressure at full throttle and it does not drop under 6psi.The truck does smoke a lot on the power so maybe a little more nos might help.I will let you guys know how it turns out after the testing on monday.

King D I could possibly tell you what some of the differences are between trucks but I would rather keep that info to myself and my customers. I'm sure there are issues with some trucks I haven't found yet but I do know what some of the issues are.


A64 you are right something is not letting it achieve desired in some cases. Could be programming or one of several fuel supply problems but I haven't found one truck that was limited by the high psi pump. But even if we get bigger injectors and keep the psi where the programming is wanting it there are still hp restrictions in the air flow setup and that is why some aren't happy with injectors at this point.

this is for the guys doing the programming

do you have a different program for trucks with bigger nozzles or is it not needed?

You can't expect the larger nozzles to make much more hp on diesel with the stock turbo. Tuning already gets all the fuel you can burn with stock air.

Now ad some nos and there is a noticeable difference between stock injectors and bigger nozzles.

Add a better turbo and you'd see the difference even more.

You can't expect the larger nozzles to make much more hp on diesel with the stock turbo. Tuning already gets all the fuel you can burn with stock air.

Now ad some nos and there is a noticeable difference between stock injectors and bigger nozzles.

Add a better turbo and you'd see the difference even more.
kyle do you have any graphs or data, i hope so would love to see it. i see your point on the injects and extra nos but i would love to see actual data.i found that by having enough fuel supply that i can actually give so much fuel that it puts the fire out.nos helps for sure.just want to see some actual numbers before i invest in the injects.


as far as turbos does anybody have one yet.i know of a few companies that are working on releasing one very soon.i actually have the chance to help one with a turbo that is built on the b1 design.problem they have now is trying to design a down pipe to make it hook up to the exhaust.i have a spare dmax motor coming and once i get it in the shop i will get the turbo and try to have a down pipe fabbed up that will work.


cpmac i know of a few fuel restictions on the dmax my self and granted the turbos will help with power,but if the pump cant keep up the flow putting it through a bigger hole wont help either.....

I wish I did, Never dynoed pre injectors. Wish i had the money to dyno and try new things all the time.

I am trying to get on the rollers again soon so I can try different things out. I understand the too much fuel thing, my old tst poured way too much fuel. I have also noticed higher tunes are making less and less smoke. Dynoing again will give me a better Idea, but still the problem is that it is hard to compare when all trucks are different and vary 40+ hp on the same tuneing. My biggest reason for going with injectors is that i would like to stay with diesel and they cost less than a bbq setup. I kinda like smoke toohttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif. As far as installing them, DIY injectors arn't bad, just a lot of stuff to take off and put back on.

I made 574 on a dyno the same day/dyno that another dmax, with a better tuning combo and stock injectors made 522.
Both using nos.

Here is a video:
Dyno Run (http://kyle.michael.net/kyle_dmax_dyno_indy.mpg)
If it works, Is that cleaning up the smoke?

Kyle

Why then at high power settings does the actual fuel pressure fall short of commanded fuel pressure? Logic would dictate that something either is restricting the fuel flow to the HP pump or the demanded fuel flow rate is in excess of the max flow rate of the HP pump. Just asking a question here, don't shoot the messenger. But what else could it be?




Where did the data for this come from? very interesting, i asume you mean rail pressure. Has this been tested with and without lift pump?

Even if the pressure can't keep up, doesn't larger injectors allow more flow?


Yes I did mean rail pressure. Personally I don't have any data, but I've seen the tuners post about it several times. It's been tested with and without a pump, although I've seen where lift pump pressure couldn't keep up as well, indicating the lift pump wasn't large enough. If the pressure drops from a bigger nozzle, maybe the flow rate is the same as the smaller nozzle at higher pressure. Pressure drop probably indicates a restriction in flow. It's kinda like putting a 2" pipe on your garden hose bib, pressure will drop with the bigger pipe, but flow will remain the same as the water is still having to flow through a pencil sized hole in the bib. Something is restricting fuel flow. If not the HP, then maybe the LP or filter head or line or something. If I'm right then bigger nozzles won't gain as much power as they could if fuel delivery wasn't a problem. I'm sure there is an advantage to shortening pulse width and flowing the same fuel that a stock one will flow with a longer pulse width, but IMHO bigger injectors won't come into their own until the fuel pressure thing is licked.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

Well it looks like we are geting close to the limits of the fuel system. Maybe somebody with a bigger play bidget can figure out how to make these pumps keep up or find the restriction. If it is the HP pump, the cummins guys might be working on the same thing since its the same bosch pump on the cr's.

But still bigger holes have to flow more at the same pressure than little holes. And I like my smoke. I would rather make 700 on diesel than 800 having to use additional fuels. Injectors must do somthing when 680 can be made without additional fuel! Can stock injectors make 680 withought adding any other type of fuel?

if you dont consider nitrous extra fule yes over 680 can be made with out propane.... hsve you heard of some one makeing over 680 on just diesel?was your 570 ish dyno run on just diesel fuel with tuning and bigger injects,if so that is the proof i have been looking for.also who is the 680 on just diesel that you speak of.......Edited by: king d

Well it looks like we are geting close to the limits of the fuel system. Maybe somebody with a bigger play bidget can figure out how to make these pumps keep up or find the restriction. If it is the HP pump, the cummins guys might be working on the same thing since its the same bosch pump on the cr's.

But still bigger holes have to flow more at the same pressure than little holes. And I like my smoke. I would rather make 700 on diesel than 800 having to use additional fuels. Injectors must do somthing when 680 can be made without additional fuel! Can stock injectors make 680 withought adding any other type of fuel?



The trigger of course is if the pressure can be maintained with the bigger injectors. If the pressure does not drop off with the bigger injectors there should be BIG increases in power. I've seen several posts that with agressive tuning with even stock injectors the pressure "rail" drops off from commanded pressure.Edited by: a64pilot

Your right if, just saying if the pressure only drops so much injectors or not. I Have no idea if it drops more with bigger nozzles or not. But just say, MAYBE if it drops due to the aggressive tuning a certain amount, the fuel system may be able to provide the flow at that lower pressure. I have no data, I don't know much about it at all, I'm just trying to think of a reason why you can make more hp with just bigger nozzles, tunning, and nos. than you can make with stock nozzles tunning and nos. Isn't that correct?

I rememberd wrong on the 680, it was only 667.9. Givin, it was quad. I'd bet the injectors were bigger than mine, but it was just diesel and nos. I looked up the thread, here:
http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5704&KW=dyno&PN=0&TPN=1

my 570 was diesel, tunning, and nos. I also just winged it, first time on dyno, got the nos flowing once on the street right before I got in the dyno line.

yes, I'm not considering nos as fuel.Considering it more like air.
Like I said before, without nos or bigger turbo, I don't expect the injectors to add much more. Withought nos or bigger turbo, They are more like stacking a 100hp box on top of a 215 tunner, not much difference. But with no tunning, they run like a 100+hp box.

Kyle

Did some reading on tdr on the cr cummins since they have the same bosch high pressure pump(includes mechanical LP pump that feeds the high pressure plungers).
The stock lift pumps on a dodge come factory at around 9.5 psi at idle. With boxes they are able to draw it down close to 1-2psi.
Several have used a replacement lift pump that supplies up tp 15psi at idle. I belive Diesel Dynamics supplies one setup. So This would lead me to believe that it doesn't hurt having a lift pump that provides 10psi at idle.

A cr cummins could run just fine with no lift pump just like the duramax. They have a lift pump that basicly just keeps you from having to prime the system manualy after a filter change.

The LP mechanical pump makes about 180 psi to feed the high pressure plungers. I don't know how it works, and there is no way to see the pressure that the LP pump is making. That would be nice info to see, but it is inside the Pump and can't be measured(I believe).

So,we know the rail pressure does not meet demand pressure with agressicve tunning. What decides the demanded pressure? It would be better to have some actual pressures that the rail drops to instead of just saying it doesn't meet demanded. I have a hard time believing the hp can't can't keep up.
Is the LP pump not able to feed the HP plungers because lift pump and fuel system up to the Main pump doesn't supply enough?
or does the HP get the required fuel from the LP pump and just can't keep up with the demands that drain the rail?

Again, I would like knowin the actual pressues the rail drops to. Maybe if i can get some play time with a tech 2 i could get numbers.

Kyle

kyle i am with you ,i thought you were talking of quads numbers.now i am not sure but he once told me he had a speacial nitrous tune with lots of extra fuel in it,was he running this on the dyno i dont know,but i thin with proper tuning you can get the same results.thanks for your comments and good luck

Kyle03D, keep reading at the TDR. There have been guys that have been hitting the wall with the HP pump. With injectors over 100hp and an aggressive box I read that the HP pump can't keep up and the motor will miss. I'm going by memory but I'm pretty sure what I wrote is accurate.